Thread: Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

Originally Posted by Ampharos King

Again, Cilan's "flaws" as a moral being tend to be downplayed because his character is portrayed either for the purpose of comic relief or as a caretaker who has to deal with rowdy, immature children. That is not to say that we have not seen Cilan in a negative light. Perhaps because he has lived with two other siblings and has competed with them for attention, Cilan felt the need to protect his views from other people instead of embracing their own ideas and integrating them within his experience as well?

Up top, man.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the reason why Dento has seemingly fewer flaws than the rest of the cast is because...Cilan's not a really serious character? And that most of his character traits are based off of gags that are meant to entertain?

You've all said so yourselves...he's pretty, he sparkles, he spins, he uses Engrish. Now...really? I mean, you can hate him for those traits, sure, and I know that they don't appeal to everyone...but I don't know about you, but I cannot seriously rag on him for that because they don't really affect the plot.

Anyways, Ampharos King, very nice post. I think that most of your analyses are right on. The part about Cilan having a competitive attitude with his siblings is intriguing...it's a shame they didn't portray their relationships more on screen. I'm sure if anyone could point out his "flaws," it'd be his brothers XD

Originally Posted by Ampharos King

I felt that the only reason why Iris attacks Ash for being an overconfident, rash individual is because she blamed those traits she had within herself for the loss that she suffered against Drayden. Iris was fearful of putting herself out there, and must have experienced great shock and shame with having a pokemon suffer because of her judgment. Based on this noteworthy observation, this complex was most likely what led to Iris to allow her pokemon to do whatever they wish, and allow them to grow on their own.

Well put,Ampharos King. Iris is a mystery wrapped in an enigma which is why I like her ^_^

She often puts Satoshi on blast and criticizes him for his "childish" ways, most likely to cover up her own insecurities she has about herself. A disobedient Doryuuzu, and a weak Kibago. A lazy Emonga. But, she seems like she doesn't want to push her Kibago like she did her Mongrew because then he may start to close off from her once again. She learned from her mistake and she doesn't want a repeat of it, which is way she wants to take things easy. Her factors like her being afraid of Ice-Type Pokemon, can't just stem from her liking Dragon Pokemon, she most likely went through a hard time when she was a kid and was hurt by a Ice-Type. She asked Satoshi to use Tsutarja in Bel's battle, from that we know that she likes to battle, she even ended the episode saying that they should battle next time they meet. So that's something to look forward too, that Charbu of Bel's should give Doryuuzu a run for it's money.

There's also the fact of just who exactly is her village elder? She's a mysterious woman, and why exactly did she choose Iris? Why exactly was she in cahoots with that Dragon Master? There's also the fact of Rangurei and her being Iris's rival and a driving force for her. Right now she seems to have developed some chemistry with Shuuti, which is weird because that's Satoshi's rival. She needs more Dragon Pokemon, and she's a Jungle a girl, what they have planned for her, I'm not sure but, it seems like a done deal that it's gonna be very great. What exactly do the writers have planned for Iris? Waiting is the only key to know. There's also the Q of were exactly did she get her medicine making skills.

Originally Posted by CommanderPigg

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the reason why Dento has seemingly fewer flaws than the rest of the cast is because...Cilan's not a really serious character? And that most of his character traits are based off of gags that are meant to entertain?

Bingo! That Dento has very few flaws is due to the comedic nature of his character. Outside of his the Stration episodes and the Cabernet episodes, they didn't really go to the dramatic aspect with Dent, hence why we've seen Dent's flaws mostly played for laughs. Except, when they want to go to the dramatic side with Dento, the writers have never hesitated to show him in a bad light, as evidenced by BW005 and BW019. More than that, none of his attributes are out of the norm, i.e. given what we know of the Isshu region and the Pokémon anime world, he's hasn't show abilities outside of what other gym leaders have shown and has shown to be more adept than trainers who were less experienced and knowledgeable than him, and weak wild pokémon, all the while being shown to be weaker that some strong evolved wild pokémon like Pendra, or some strong trainers like Ash.

The difference with Iris, is that when the writers want to go to the dramatic side with her character, they're never showing her as being really flawed, mostly seeing the problems steming from other characters who then change when they realize how "amazing and caring" Iris is, like Doryuuzu and probably Emonga. The argument that Iris's lack of authority caused Emonga's disobediance doesn't hold weight when it stems from Emonga's personality who would have refused to fight, no matter who had captured her. Iris, in BW036, was portrayed as a training pokémon to get 99 OHKO wins where her mole didn't get hit once (which is why he flipped out when it finally happened against Shaga) and win local tournaments, at an age where trainers haven't yet gotten their first pokémon. She's shown as already being knowledgeable, already competent. Again, that's different, better than what we see in universe, extraordinary to the point where it makes Iris looks like a prodigy. When you put that together with Iris's problems steming from her pokémon, not her, you get a trainer who's shown to be better than her pokémon, almost has to wait for them to get over their hiccups to her level. Then you again add that when ever she does something wrong or is shown to have a flaw in a dramatic moment, people don't call her out on it, condone it even.

Again, each of those traits on their own do not make a Mary Sue and even brought together, they don't automatically make a Mary Sue, but right now, if the writers continue in the path they're on, if they don't start to treat Iris's flaws as flaws, she'll be a Canon Sue.

Yeah, still doesn't change the fact that only because Dento represents a fun character doesn't mean that he can't have a serious storyline of his own. His antics are amusing, as well as his character quirks and his flaws are displayed often enough. Honestly, I think Dento will start boring people unless writers start doing something with him. That's my concern as well, I wouldn't want such a great character as Dento go to waste.

I want to root for a character, support him but I simply can't do that if he does everything right. :/

Main problem i see with Cilan is that most of his flaws aren't really standing on his way.He is sometimes arrogant,cant handle being proved wrong and has fears from supernatural but thing is those issues don't influence his story directly .
He doesn't have any personal struggles,doubts or crisis going within his character which would restrain him from going forward.He is already competent battler and excellent connoisseur. We can see that nicely when he was being arrogant toward Cabernet for example with his flaw not costing him anything in end winning.
Everything Cilan did so far portrayed him as competent and confident person in almost every aspect.He is good at fishing,resolving mysteries,cooking without experiencing any failures not having to prove himself to anyone or overcome some obstacle.

Some may say Cilan lack of any real flaws may be because they are used for comedy purposes which is good in adding to overall enjoyment but on negative side this really hinders his potential to grow further in character sense.Not saying he cant grow more(in theory you always can if writers add more substance) but without internal struggles,failures learning on your mistakes things don't work in Cilan favor.Being successful despite his flaws make it seem how he is in reality least flawed character out of BW trio.

Iris is on other hand complete contrast.She has unstable team which is experiencing several problems,she lacks confidence in some areas,her bratty and childish behavior toward Ash just shows how she is trying to hide her own insecurities when doing that seeing in him mistakes which she used to do with Excadrill in past.
Because of her reckless and persistent approach in battles in past which caused Excadrill to stop listening to her because of pushing him too hard reflected on Iris character negatively not wanting to become responsible for such thing happening again later on holding her back in her further progress as trainer.
She became insecure and less confident in her abilities as trainer not wanting to train and battle in same way with other pokemon fearing how they might end up as Excadrill.
We can see that when she hesitated battling with Axew at start asking others not to go with full strength.

Later she managed to overcome this which was evidenced when she battled against Beartic without any hesitation along with being willing to acknowledge her own flaws which caused Excarill to become disobedient not wanting to fail her expectations after hard defeat against Drayden.
However it doesn't change fact how her lack of self esteem is still present in there
With Emolga some may say how Iris lack of authority doesn't have anything to do with her disobedience but one has to take in account how Emolga laziness and disobedience would probably be put under better control if she was caught by someone more authoritative.

In nutshell her lack of authority,lack of confidence and childish(at times reckless) attitude,hating being criticized by others while not having problems in doing same thing is standing on Iris way of improving as trainer which was manifested with unstable pokemon team and lack of interest coming from her character to do much about it.
So far Iris seem to have most of issues out of BW group with half of them not being expanded and fully explored yet.

Okay we know they all got some sort of issues already not gonna repeat much.

But basically, Dent is portrayed as relatively flawless. When his flaws are shown, they aren't exactly addressed. They're just kinda, you know, there. One only picks up on them if one pays attention and sees them for what they are.

In response to the above post, he can grow as a person if he begins to fail. What if Cabernet comes back and defeats him? What if one of his prided skills is shown to be worthless? Maybe Maggyo is completely defiant and he can't understand it at all. The writers can shrug it off, or do something good with it. They can have him lose confidence in himself and/or his Pokemon, freeze up during battles or training, have him not be able to do things correctly anymore. His sense of taste would be off, etc.

If the writers go in that sort of direction, sort of showcase his already apparent flaws more, and have some sort of complication as a result- then we could get some interesting character development out of that.

Don't get me wrong, I love love love Dent- but tbh he needs some sort of development.

With Iris on her way to sorting things out with Doryuuzu at least, I think it's a real possibility that Dent could be next for some issue-resolving and whatever.

Another thought of mine is that Ash's issues, which we all know, are not exactly being worked on. *shrug* Perhaps the writers think we've seen the same thing too many times?

Cilan has the most flaws for 1 reason. He is just another white guy. Iris at least is black!

Originally Posted by Muk-a-matic

Cilan has the most flaws for 1 reason. He is just another white guy. Iris at least is black!

Being white's a flaw?

And besides, you could say that all the other Pokeboys are Poke-Asian.

I think Iris has the most flaws, but she was given so many flaws so she could develop over time.

Iris is such a Mary-Sue how dare she train her Pokemon through hard work and win a tournament. AND AS A LITTLE GIRL TOO!!! How dare she beat adult trainers and wild Pokemon. Yeah, Iris is such a Mary-Sue because she and Doryuuzu beat a bunch of no name fodder characters when they were younger. God forbid she actually beat Cabernet or Bel, then her Mary-Sue levels would shoot through the roof! Damn her for beating up a bunch of never to be seen again background characters just for plot purposes!


Dento's just sitting there with his powerful Yanappu and Ishizumai with all his battle knowledge and Gym Title and near perfect sommelier abilities. And his sparkle joy. He totally has a interesting rivalry, yeah. That girl he beat up with his Newly caught Ishizumai and Yanappu even though Mebujika has the Herbivore ability :P

What is Dento doing to develop his character? With his bland Yanappu? He has no problems. Fabulous ness doesn't count :P

Iris has problems to deal with Emonga, Kibago, Dragon Master role, her fear of Ice Types, as well as back story and a story line and things she has to accomplish and mystery behind her character. At the end of the day, we still don't understand "Who exactly is this girl?" something to develop and ring out about her character. Dento doesn't have that luxury nor does Satoshi.

Originally Posted by gotpika

Iris is such a Mary-Sue how dare she train her Pokemon through hard work and win a tournament. AND AS A LITTLE GIRL TOO!!! How dare she beat adult trainers and wild Pokemon. Yeah, Iris is such a Mary-Sue because she and Doryuuzu beat a bunch of no name fodder characters when they were younger. God forbid she actually beat Cabernet or Bel, then her Mary-Sue levels would shoot through the roof! Damn her for beating up a bunch of never to be seen again background characters just for plot purposes!

I explained quite in detail in this thread what a Mary Sue was and how one had to use a holistic approach to determine whether a character was one, i.e. that a Mary Sue isn't just an accumulation of traits, it's how those traits relate to one another and how they act as an obstacle to developement, effectively stunting the character or the universe's story.

When I refer to Iris's backstory shown in BW036 as something that has a Mary Sue quality, it's not because of the traits showed there themselves, but because they stunt her developement. By showing Iris have 99 straight wins before most trainers even get their first pokémon, by showing Iris impressing a Dragon Master/Gym Leader and the Village Elder with her battling skills so much that Shaga asks her if she studied battles intensely... the writers made Iris out to be a very knowledgeable and skillful trainer at a very young age. That alone doesn't make Iris a Mary Sue, as you can have very powerful near invicible characters that are still well-developed because they show limitations in other areas, but in Iris's case, they haven't shown Iris to have any problems as a trainer, any limitations. None of her problems stem from her, and none of her "flaws" actually act as an obstacle for her developement.

Iris has problems to deal with Emonga

Problems which have nothing to do with Iris and do not stem from her. Emonga would have acted the same no matter who had caught her, and therefore, the trouble with Emonga will come when Emonga changes her attitude, but there's no lesson here to learn for Iris, no growth to speak of.

Kibago

Iris has already been shown to be able to take a young pokémon, fully evolve it and train it into a powerhouse. There's nothing to learn for Iris here with Kibago, she's not making any mistakes, and since we know she's already knowledgeable and skillful at raising and training pokémon, it's more a question of her as patiently waiting for Kibago to catch up with her skills.

Dragon Master role

BW030 showed her to be already very knowledgeable of Dragons, to know how to hear them, calm them and feel them. Once again, no real obstacle standing in her way but waiting for Kibago to become as strong as her.

her fear of Ice Types

Which was not shown to impede her in any way, to cause her to be unwilling to battle or to cause her to make wrong decisions. In short, it wasn't treated as a flaw, or an obstacle by the writers.

Now add to those things that the writers are having her totally hijack the tension and conflict in the Satoshi/Shooti rivalry, that no one seems annoyed by her flaws, no one calls her out on her mistakes, nothing about her character is ever the cause of a legit problem, well yeah... all of those things combined stop the story dead in its track. In BW030 and BW036, the writers didn't develop Iris so much as they told us what she already was, but they're not having her grow, they're not having her progress because ultimately, they have yet created problems about her that she needs to overcome.

Originally Posted by Hellion

When I refer to Iris's backstory shown in BW036 as something that has a Mary Sue quality, it's not because of the traits showed there themselves, but because they stunt her developement. By showing Iris have 99 straight wins before most trainers even get their first pokémon, by showing Iris impressing a Dragon Master/Gym Leader and the Village Elder with her battling skills so much that Shaga asks her if she studied battles intensely... the writers made Iris out to be a very knowledgeable and skillful trainer at a very young age. That alone doesn't make Iris a Mary Sue, as you can have very powerful near invicible characters that are still well-developed because they show limitations in other areas, but in Iris's case, they haven't shown Iris to have any problems as a trainer, any limitations. None of her problems stem from her, and none of her "flaws" actually act as an obstacle for her developement.

So, Iris has the "qualities of a Mary-Sue" because she trained her Pokemon at a young age and beat a mix of 99 wild and trainer Pokemon? She's knowledgable about making medicine right, because I don't see what you mean by "knowledgable". Yes, it was her fault Doryuuzu stopped battling, she caused that problem.

Problems which have nothing to do with Iris and do not stem from her. Emonga would have acted the same no matter who had caught her, and therefore, the trouble with Emonga will come when Emonga changes her attitude, but there's no lesson here to learn for Iris, no growth to speak of.

Mijumaru's Aqua Jet would have failed the same who ever caught him, your point? BTW what problems in BW have stemed from Dento?

Iris has already been shown to be able to take a young pokémon, fully evolve it and train it into a powerhouse. There's nothing to learn for Iris here with Kibago, she's not making any mistakes, and since we know she's already knowledgeable and skillful at raising and training pokémon, it's more a question of her as patiently waiting for Kibago to catch up with her skills.

Kibago is a baby, Moryugu was a bully average strength Pokemon, there a big difference. Yeah, she is making mistakes.

BW030 showed her to be already very knowledgeable of Dragons, to know how to hear them, calm them and feel them. Once again, no real obstacle standing in her way but waiting for Kibago to become as strong as her.

Dento has shown to already be very knowledgeable of Sommeliering, no real obstacle in his way. Yeah, her obstacle is called "Langely".

Which was not shown to impede her in any way, to cause her to be unwilling to battle or to cause her to make wrong decisions. In short, it wasn't treated as a flaw, or an obstacle by the writers.

We don't know how things will turn out in the future, till then it's a flaw a self problems.

no one calls her out on her mistakes,

Dento called her out for calling Satoshi a kid :P

Your picking sides and showing favortism of characters.

I think the biggest thing Hellion is overseeing is the fact Iris herself is being developed. Her first major character development happened in BW036 when she admitted that she made a mistake, she recognized her flaw and therefore her personality changed slightly. She didn't pick on others, she didn't blame on Doryuuzu, she knew at that point that she was the cause of all the problems. Iris herself grew and developed in that episode and the fact you didn't manage to pick that up is just incredible to me. At least admit that part of development!

Iris's current problem is Emonga. Why isn't she doing anything about it? Remember the episode BW009 (yes, the Iris episode) when Dento suggested to her that she should try not to push Kibago and that they should train at their own pace? He said the same thing applied for Doryuuzu which is why Iris is following the same advice regarding her disobedient Emonga. She's a relaxed character and will do what she needs to do when time comes. Right now she doesn't really need Emonga as she managed to get Kibago to learn Dragon Rage and she solved her issues with Doryuuzu.

Perhaps if you look more into it, you will notice that Iris has been slowly overcoming her issues, slowly, but safely as she accomplished both goals of battling together one day with Doryuuzu and getting Kibago to learn Dragon Rage. The Doryuuzu problem led to Iris finally giving the fault to none other but herself, and THAT is one major step in her character development in my book and the Kibago problem was simply solved because Iris followed her companion's advice and kept encouraging and training her partner Pokémon. That showed that she really does need help from others and did a mature step in following Dento's advice.

I think Cilan has the least flaws; Ash is the typical idiot hero who makes tons of mistakes, and Iris has had lots of trouble with her Pokemon and she's also a bit quick to judge. Cilan, unlike the former two, doesn't really need to overcome any flaws or better himself in any way.

I would say Iris has the most flaws, for the aforementioned reasons. But that's okay, I like that she's flawed. She's still a great character, and because she has flaws it gives her lots of room to develop her character further.

Originally Posted by gotpika

Yes, it was her fault Doryuuzu stopped battling, she caused that problem.

Did she? Was she portrayed as doing as causing the problem in the episode? No, she was portrayed as doing what every trainer, including Ash, Dento, etc. do: If you're pokémon is still able to battle, encourage it to give it his/her all and to do her best, even if the pokémon they're fighting might be stronger. Shaga and the Village Elder saw nothing wrong with her behaviour and even Dento, when explaining things to Iris is saying that part of Doryuuzu's attitude is because it wasn't used to losing and partially because he freaked out and misunderstood Iris's encouragement as her not caring. Throughout, the problem is solely portrayed as being Doryuuzu's and Doryuuzu's only. Iris later apologizing for encouraging Doryuuzu not to give up when it wanted to is actually one of the more broken aesop's I've seen in the anime and one of the least touching moments ever shown.

Kibago is a baby, Moryugu was a bully average strength Pokemon, there a big difference.

Still, Iris was shown to be knowledgeable of battles and extremely skilled at it with Shaga implying she would have needed to study intensely battling to reach that level of skill, which of course, she didn't need to do, cause she was a friend of all the woodland creatures. She already knows how to take a pokémon from weak to very strong, already knows the ins and outs of battles, even managing to win a local tournament over people who looked like they had been training longer than she has. The image that the episode sent was that of Iris as a prodigy, as an already very capable, very knowledgeable trainer that really has no real area where she needs to improve herself to reach her goal of becoming a Dragon Master. Right now, she's just waiting for Kibago to reach her level of skills and power more than growing side by side with it. BW030 showed us that if Iris had a grown Dragon Pokémon, she would be more than capable of being a threat against anybody, on top of being already able to communicate, sense and calm dragons.

Yeah, her obstacle is called "Langely".

Langley who challenges Iris's character, Iris's methods in no way, shape or form. If anything, the writers are portraying Langley as overly bitchy and mean to make Iris look good in comparaison as opposed to use Langley to point out flaws in Iris and force her to challenge herself.

We don't know how things will turn out in the future, till then it's a flaw a self problems.

No but we know how things went in the past, Iris and Kibago were confronted with an Ice type pokémon and both shrugged it off in 2 seconds. Neither was shown to be impeded in their ability to battle, ergo, not a flaw, not an obstacle.

Dento called her out for calling Satoshi a kid :P

As a joke, as if it was funny, which means that it's not treated as a flaw by the writers.

Originally Posted by Tsutarja

Iris's current problem is Emonga.

Iris's problems are always other characters, but never herself, as none of her flaws, none of her mistakes are actually treated as problems. She's not being developped, the writers are just dumping backstory on her to show how none of her problems are actually her fault and that she's knowledgeable, capable and skillful already, but surrounded by pokémon beneath her talent.

Ultimately, that's the problem with Iris. She's not vulnerable, not relatable, not compelling and therefore, totally uninteresting. With Satoshi's bland reserves, she's easily the low point of Best Wishes.

Let's not even talk about how she's able to get away with anything and how she hijacks the Shooti/Satoshi rivalry. The argument can easily be made that Iris is likely to be on her way to become a Mary Sue.

I'm glad someone was able to articulate the thoughts I had about Cilan and his alleged "flawlessness". He's clearly comic relief and, in his own right, eccentric. That's what I'd expect from people who are trying to make a male companion successor to Brock, who was also comic relief but for the most part his humor revolved around a single running gag, whereas with Cilan his comic relief is expressed in a variety of ways. Combine that with the fact that he's come off to me as at least Brock's age - if not older - and he's already a high-ranking Connoisseur, meaning a lot of his base character development would have already happened off-screen anyway. His professionalism just sorta tells me his Gym Leader status (or former; has it been clear that he's officially quit that profession or not?) and prior experience to meeting Ash puts him on a fairly high level... not necessarily in terms of strength, but he did state that it's no easy feat just getting to C-Rank, so unless we get a shit-ton of flashbacks of Cilan's early days, we're not going to see development from him along the lines that we'd get from Ash and ought to be getting with Iris. And that's fine by me; if he gets really significant development, it'll be in a way completely different from most other main characters in this series, but even if he doesn't, I won't get my panties in a twist over it. Really, it feels like Cilan doesn't need a lot of development. The best way this feeling of mine comes to mind is something Linkara said when he reviewed Power Rangers Lightspeed Rescue about Carter Grayson's development - "He didn't undergo any changes, but he didn't really need to; he was just awesome."

So far, there've been at least three opportunities (if one cuts some filler and the time used for the hideously unfunny shtick, there'd be a lot more opportunities than that) for Iris to experience genuine character development and have her flaws addressed, but so far the more we learn about her, the harder she is to relate to. Aside from using her catchphrase less, she hasn't undergone a significant change and now her story feels very clunky and inconsistent; over the course of one episode, she goes from a hypocritical incompetent newbie to a prodigy trainer with all these victories way back before any other main character became a trainer. And pretty much all fault with her incompatibility issues with her Pokemon are placed squarely on the Pokemon instead of her. So while I'd like to say that giving Iris tons of flaws leaves the series with many opportunities to develop her character, so far... they've only made her harder to relate to and understand. She's still left with 99% of the flaws she had since her introduction that only the viewers are addressing when we're three quarters of the first year into the series. By that point in past series, I honestly can't think of any past main character that went that long without having a serious flaw of theirs addressed, so y'know... it's a legitimate concern, especially since the pace of this particular series is hard to put a finger on. It really doesn't feel like there's four whole years to sort this out based on what we know now.