Out of the BW trio, which character has least/most flaws?

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Originally Posted by Masurao

I also think calling Iris "super powerful" is a bit of an exaggeration.

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That was just a way to phrase it. :P

I don't think Iris is super powerful or more powerful or a better trainer than Satoshi, but she was portrayed as somewhat of a prodigy, since kids younger than 10 aren't supposed to be trainers, let alone defeat 99 opponents with OHKO and win a local tournament. Again, compared to kids "in universe", it's not ordinary, it's not common and that's the point. While we saw Satoshi struggle when he started, not know certain things, Iris seems to know everything about training, attacks and strategies, and I repeat had 99 OHKO vicotires where her mole didn't get hit once. Same for Dento, we've seen leaders as young and strong as he is, he's not an exception. We've seen him make mistakes as a sommelier and as a trainer, lose battles. The whole reason he's traveling with Ash is because he feels that he doesn't know everything and that watching Ash will teach him how to be a better sommelier.

Same with Iris's "problematic" team, none of the problems on there stem from Iris, none of the problems stem from her shortcomings as a character or as a person, and therefore, there resolution cannot bring developpement to Iris, unless the writers make some difficulties come from her, show her making mistakes, treat her flaws and shortcomings as such.

Again, while all three of them have flaws and aren't invincible battling gods, Iris's flaws aren't treated as such, making those flaws unable to make Iris and her story really progress, really move forward, stopping the progress dead in its track. Still, I don't think it's too late for the writers to reverse that trend, but they are running out of time to really make Iris into a compelling character and not a Canon Sue.

What about Cilan? People tend to like him even more than Iris without any flaws of his own. How is that possible? Or do those sort of rules get ignored when it comes to the male sidekick?

Overconfidence and arrogance are his flaws, and they're treated as such, costing him a battle against Satoshi, and being called out by Cabernet for him teasing her, and seeing Satoshi and Iris react negatively when he bet that should he lose, Satoshi would release all his pokémon. The whole reason he's travelling with Ash is because he thinks he can learn from Ash, learn how to be a better sommelier, because he's still got a lot to learn.

But we only really saw those characteristics of his in the Cabernet episode, somehow I'd wish he could more act like his arrogant self. XD

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Originally Posted by Tsutarja

But we only really saw those characteristics of his in the Cabernet episode, somehow I'd wish he could more act like his arrogant self. XD

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...and in his gym battle against Satoshi... and when he thinks he's always right about the scientific explanation of things. He's always proven wrong and that's what's funny, that's where the humour comes.

He's also been shown on several occasions to have a short temper. Again, I repeat, all three of them have flaws, but only Satoshi and Dento are treated as such, costing them battles, seeing others call them out on their flaws.

To be honest, it really didn't cost him anything.

Iris's immaturity and lack of knowledge when she was a kid resulted in a disobedient Pokémon and cold relationship with Excadrill and her lack of authority resulted in a disobedient Emonga who dislikes to battle. Cilan may have those flaws you just mentioned, but it never went the bad way for him. He's still the cool, funny guy who's better than everyone else and is great at everything he does. Except when it comes to believing in spirits, apparently.

Imo, the only real flaws have Ash and Iris.

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Originally Posted by Tsutarja

To be honest, it really didn't cost him anything.

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except a battle, developping the feeling that he might be stuck in a rut at the gym and needs to travel with Satoshi, learn what he knows, etc. The reason he's even in the group is because he's flawed. He was too quick to dismiss Satoshi, got cocky and got burned

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Iris's immaturity and lack of knowledge when she was a kid resulted in a disobedient Pokémon and cold relationship with Excadrill

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Iris failed to recognize that Doryuuzu had a problem but she was never the cause of said problem. Doryuuzu couldn't cope with being hit and not being able to take out an opponent in one hit, cause... you know... Iris is such a bad unknowledgeable trainer that she had 99 OHKO wins and won a local tournament before most trainers even have one. That's why in BW036, Doryuuzu had loads of developement, while Iris stayed the same she'd always been, had no noticeable change.

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her lack of authority resulted in a disobedient Emonga who dislikes to battle.

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Iris again did not cause Emonga to be disobedient, Emonga had that personality before. That's why when Emonga starts listening to Iris, Emonga will grow, develop, but Iris sadly won't. Because the problems that she faces never have anything to do with her.

Wow, you really are looking into things when it comes to Cilan. :/

Iris's problems
- She failed to recognize? Same thing to me, did she even try apologizing to Excadrill before? She didn't even assume she did something wrong.
- Oh, another one of her flaws, she isn't strict enough towards her Pokémon, she's of none authority to Emonga, she's an undeveloped trainer which is why Emonga does what she wants and doesn't listen to her.

Another one of her flaws would be her "doing things on her own pace", but that's something different.

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except a battle, developping the feeling that he might be stuck in a rut at the gym and needs to travel with Satoshi, learn what he knows, etc. The reason he's even in the group is because he's flawed. He was too quick to dismiss Satoshi, got cocky and got burned

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How did he develop that feeling? He probably had that feeling before anyway. Besides, he was going to lose the battle anyway they just wanted to give him a set up to travel with Satoshi. He wants to get better, getting better doesn't mean "flawed".

Heck, he has no flaws, that's obvious. Arrogance and Overconfidence? Psssshh. Those are pretty much the same thing. Barely even noticeable. Overconfidence something Satoshi has all the time. He isn't trying to "overcome" his overconfidence the way you want Iris to have certain stuff to overcome. His "overconfidence" isn't causing him to go through some emotional growth and change you want from Iris. His "overconfidence" isn't some deep running plot in the show, like Satoshi's Mijumaru's Aqua Jet or Iris's Doryuuzu's disobedience. You say Iris didn't cause Doryuuzu to go into shock, but she did. Doryuuzu said, that he couldn't continue and the battle was a lost cause and he couldn't win. But, Iris kept pressuring him and pressuring him to continue so he did, she didn't understand Doryuuzu's feelings, Doryuuzu put up a good fight against the Dragon Master's powerful Onononkus, but he found himself taking hits for the first time, and was shocked that Iris still expected him to battle despite being hurt. Ononokus soon knocked Doryuuzu out, and Doryuuzu (thinking Iris didn't care about him) closed himself off from her. Had Iris stopped the battle and realized Doryuuzu's feelings, then he wouldn't have closed himself off. As a trainer you are responsible for your Pokemon and understanding them.

Take a look at another internal flaw, like her fear of Ice-Type Pokemon. And compare that to "Dento's Overconfidence Flaw" it's ridiculous to compare the two.

In the Monmen episode, Dento called out Iris for calling Satoshi a kid so yeah she has been called out for her actions. In the Meguroco ep Satoshi called her out for calling him a kid.

So what's the problem?

I agree. Ash to me has become a big dissapointment in this series. I mean, how do you tour through 4 different regions with the same pikachu and still, STILL! lose to a first timer. And against a grass type no less. I'll give it to you that pikachu lost all its electric powers but come on! He's got years under his belt. And it doesn't help that Ash acts like a little kid when it comes to battles. (as Iris so annoying points out all the time) Still ignoring type advantages and such....I love the series regardless cause I am a die-hard fan, but i just wish Ash Kechum could mature just a little....

Well Cilan did showed to have some flaws like being vain,going overboard when thins go wrong with his cooking along with being overconfident in his abilities at times which is rather issue because that way character isnt able to understand his own mistakes learning from them which often leads to failure.

However overall Cilan has really been portrayed as male version of "Mary Sue".For start he is A-class connoisseur who is already excellent at it being just one step below highest position in this profession,he is already good in battling being confident and capable,he knows how to cook right,apparently good at resolving mysteries,good at fishing with everything he does doing in rather easy manner.
Some particular flaws havent been addressed about his character not having any internal struggle,fears or lack of self esteem or some other character aspect which he needs to retrieve as well nothing being shown to stand really on his way to go all the way to the top.

Iris was showed to have several flaws having problems with unstable pokemon team because if not understanding her pokemon feelings not knowing enough which resulted in disobedient Excadrill and Emolga being accompanied with insecure Axew,has rather unreasonable fear from ice types lacking confidence in some areas not getting over some of her personal issues with her childish and sometimes bratty behavior which stand on her way of achieving her goal.Langley pointed out another good flaw being Iris lack of dragon types for someone who wants to become dragon master.

Ash is pretty much happy medium.He has his flaws being reckless,immature sometimes acting before thinking which cost him couple of lost matches in past by going with "head through wall" but he also showed to grow as trainer becoming more calm and collected as person compared to his starting rookie days using more strategy and thinking in his battles learning on his mistakes improving from there.

All in all he doesnt have most but certainly not least flaws in BW group either.

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Originally Posted by Hellion

T Again, compared to kids "in universe", it's not ordinary, it's not common and that's the point. While we saw Satoshi struggle when he started, not know certain things, Iris seems to know everything about training, attacks and strategies, and I repeat had 99 OHKO vicotires where her mole didn't get hit once.

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Take in account how we dont know how good trainers which Iris battled with Excadrill were.Just because he beat them easily doesnt necessarily mean how they were very skilled being of lower class/quality.

Also it was established how mole was already as wild Drillbur exceptionally strong .Later on thanks to lot of training vs wild pokemon and trainers he become even better with Iris 99 wins record not being drastically unbelievable.
She had that pokemon with her for years before she met Ash and Cilan training him for a long time which in way explains why he is already so good.

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Same for Dento, we've seen leaders as young and strong as he is, he's not an exception. We've seen him make mistakes as a sommelier and as a trainer, lose battles. The whole reason he's traveling with Ash is because he feels that he doesn't know everything and that watching Ash will teach him how to be a better sommelier.

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Only problem is this issues arent being brought up much not being treated as something which stand on his way being necessary to overcome.
This didnt affected his win against Cabernet,his competence when battling along with his fears of supernatural not being portrayed as something which stand on his way.

He is successful despite "so called issues" which prevents him from growing in character sense,This might change later on but so far writers werent very believable with this.

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Same with Iris's "problematic" team, none of the problems on there stem from Iris, none of the problems stem from her shortcomings as a character or as a person, and therefore, there resolution cannot bring developpement to Iris, unless the writers make some difficulties come from her, show her making mistakes, treat her flaws and shortcomings as such.

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As a matter of fact they do.With Excadrill for example Iris lack of knowledge not understanding mistake she made resulted in mole stopping listening her with whole problem coming from her.Her flaw was that she pushed him too hard in battle against Drayden with her character not realizing how she expected too much from her pokemon with her chlidish behaviour being well depicted later when she was unaware how she was responsible for problem not being willing to admit it.

Character not being willing to admit his mistakes is sign of internal issue preventing him from learning on them.

Emolga disobedience is coming out from Iris lack of authority not knowing how to handle her pokemon meaning how she still has a lot to learn.Similar how Misty never managed to learn how to get Psyduck listening to her or with Ash and Charizard before he got hurt in "Charizard Chills"with some bond being established earning his thrust..

I guess we'll see. As I said before, right now, all three are flawed, but Iris's flaws are not treated as such. None of her problems stem from her (least of all Emonga) and it feels like she's this already competent trainer full of knowledge and skills that's just waiting for her problematic team to catch up with her rather than working on herself, having internal issues and shortcomings that she has to overcome, or mistakes that she needs to rectify.

With Cilan, while his flaws aren't brought up often, when they are, they are treated as such, his overconfidence cost him his battle against Ash and the reason he's traveling with Ash is that his overconfidence stood in the way of him getting better. He taught he knew everything, but Ash proved him wrong and Dento wanted to learn more from Ash.

Despite Dento's "supposed" overconfidence and arrogance, they don't seem to really hinder his development...and they don't seem to be anything that stands in his way either...He seems to have everything together and in order, and he's still a very competent trainer, no serious problems with his skills or abilities, or his pokemon...He really doesn't have anything to prove and nothing to overcome, nothing heavy working against him...It's painfully obvious that he's the least flawed...It seems like the writers are making him seem flawless to add to his charm...That can only work for so long...

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Originally Posted by Hellion

I guess we'll see. As I said before, right now, all three are flawed, but Iris's flaws are not treated as such. None of her problems stem from her (least of all Emonga) and it feels like she's this already competent trainer full of knowledge and skills that's just waiting for her problematic team to catch up with her rather than working on herself, having internal issues and shortcomings that she has to overcome, or mistakes that she needs to rectify.

With Cilan, while his flaws aren't brought up often, when they are, they are treated as such, his overconfidence cost him his battle against Ash and the reason he's traveling with Ash is that his overconfidence stood in the way of him getting better. He taught he knew everything, but Ash proved him wrong and Dento wanted to learn more from Ash.

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This debate isn't going anywhere like all other discussions about Iris.

What problem are you looking for that "stems from the trainer"? When has Dento at all in Best Wishes! shown a problem that "stems from himself"? What serious problems have stemed from Dento? One's that affected him emotional, the way Doryuuzu has Iris? What problem? "I act overconfident, you defeat me, I travel with you because I'm impressed" is nothing but, a plot set up. You want proof? I'll show you proof. They did the same thing with Takeshi, it really isn't anything special, that problem isn't causing him to "develop, change, or grow" the way your always saying you want to see out of Iris. She learned her lesson after being defeated by Rangurei to understand her Pokemon's feelings more and to be more careful. What type of "Development" has Dento gone through? He understands people and Pokemon because he's a Sommelier, Battles very well, destroyed his rival Cabernet with ease, Yanappu and Ishizumai are strong, His supposed "arrogance" against his battle with Cabernet didn't matter, because he won anyway, he's a near perfect Sommelier, a great fishermen, a great detective, clean, a Pretty boy, he sparkles when he's happy, his Pokemon are obedient, there's nothing standing in his way, Rangurei is standing in Iris's way, his only obstacle Cabernet got in his way and was bulldozed away easily. There has been almost absolutely no struggle for him what-so-ever and no his battle against Hitomoshi-Tachi didn't count as a "struggle" since he was battling in a group with Musashi, Satoshi, and Kojirou. Dento has absolutely 0 true flaws. Dento didn't go through some whole "turning over a new leaf thing" with Satoshi after losing he was impressed with Satoshi and decided to go on a journey with him, but that doesn't matter because that's basic story set up for him to travel with Satoshi and Iris throughout Isshu.

Edit:Lol, I never thought I could get so serious over a cartoon (^_^') at this point, I really think I should let it go.

Feel free to read my personal evaluation and analysis regarding all three human protagonists of the BW anime.

Dent/Cilan

Cilan's flaws really do surface in the middle of a battle, and that has been noted several times in BW019. Cilan appeared to be a jerk when he defeated Cabernet for the first time when she challenged his gym. Cilan tends to be very overconfident and serious in battles. I am not certain of the original version, but Cilan did look down upon Ash's Oshawott in the dub after mocking the pokemon's lack of coordination and teamwork alongside its trainer, and Ash's impulsive decision to send out the pokemon in the first place despite having a type disadvantage. The fact that Cilan was willing to bet the release of Ash's pokemon shows how ghoulishly overconfident he is. One could call that a flaw in its own right, but at the same time, it provided an incentive and tension for Cilan to challenge the lower-classed connoisseur trainer in the first place. This ante-rule provided Cilan with a motivation to battle in a situation in which he would usually stand back and let somebody else settle things.

Cilan tends to be very protective and apprehensive in the event someone else infringes upon his personal space or opinions. That much is certain, and that has been expressed in several episodes (even though it was watered down through a series of comic relief events). For example, Cilan consistently doubts Iris's prognostic capabilities when she chooses to express them to the group's advantage, and therefore tends to be too dependant on "proven" facts and physical evidence. Cilan is a realist, and has expressed that with his interest in science, philosophy, and logic. This makes Cilan very wary of those with more spiritual and religious belief systems, and therefore this causes unreasonable conflict with other members of the group. To this end, Cilan hates being proven wrong, and insists that his findings led to a correct answer (even if they really did not).

Again, Cilan's "flaws" as a moral being tend to be downplayed because his character is portrayed either for the purpose of comic relief or as a caretaker who has to deal with rowdy, immature children. That is not to say that we have not seen Cilan in a negative light. Perhaps because he has lived with two other siblings and has competed with them for attention, Cilan felt the need to protect his views from other people instead of embracing their own ideas and integrating them within his experience as well?

Cilan is a very skilled person as a whole, and shows great markmanship and aptitude in analysis, evaluation, and observation. His capability tends to be downplayed by his eccentric behaviors and mannerisms, in addition to his reliance on substantial evidence and technology. Cilan's patience and diligence are challenged by his fear of failure and lack of progress.

Iris

Now then, Iris's flaws tend to be more centered on how she is viewed by others. Iris hates being criticized, despite criticizing other people for their "mistakes." While she does tend to be open about her views towards others, Iris does not want to delve through the skeletons in her own closet. We certainly cannot blame Iris as much because she has a lot of animosity and pressure breathing down her neck. Yes, the majority of the screentime we have had with Iris thus far focused on her attention (or lack thereof) and relationships with her pokemon. Iris knew deep inside that she had to complete the task assigned to her by the village elder, and wanted Axew to become strong on its own without her doing anything.

I honestly conclude that Iris's decisions with raising Axew were influenced by the experiences and regrets she had when she raised her Excadrill. We have witnessed in the flashback that Iris trained the pokemon nonstop and battled alongside that pokemon, only to lose in a battle against an opponent that she personally searched out for. Iris did not want to go through this experience again, despite having a lot of skill and persistence as a trainer and as a person.

I felt that the only reason why Iris attacks Ash for being an overconfident, rash individual is because she blamed those traits she had within herself for the loss that she suffered against Drayden. Iris was fearful of putting herself out there, and must have experienced great shock and shame with having a pokemon suffer because of her judgment. Based on this noteworthy observation, this complex was most likely what led to Iris to allow her pokemon to do whatever they wish, and allow them to grow on their own.

To this end, the writers really did not provide her much of an outlet to express herself. This limited development could be Iris's true flaw in the storyline. Iris does not have an active goal in mind other than to raise an Axew and evolve it. She does not really have an incentive to raise and train other pokemon herself. This is why the writers felt a need to give Iris disobedient or otherwise incapable pokemon at the start; to make the viewers embrace Iris as a character, and feel as if her existence contributes heavily to the group in these regards.

I believe that Iris's confidence and love for battle will surface as soon as her pokemon become stronger, and in time, she may challenge Emolga's laziness and attempt to train it. When we get the pokemon out of the equation, Iris's flaws tend to be her big mouth. While Iris's talk does enable certain events to unfold, at the same time, it brings her more trouble than what it is worth. Iris could be a risky individual, and has put her life on the line to save other pokemon. At the same time, however, Iris is very attuned with nature and is familiar with not only surviving out in the middle of the woods (a trait that only one of Ash's other travelling buddies had the capability of), but also treating pokemon with medications that she had crafted herself.

In conclusion, Iris's flaws are related with how others see her raising pokemon and the criticism she receives from others. Iris does not want to be liable for anything that happens to her pokemon as a result of her actions (either directly or indirectly). The present-day Iris would allow Emolga to do whatever she wanted, but Iris from the flashback would have challenged Emolga's obedience to every end. As a person, Iris displays many of the same traits as Ash, but had experienced a great shame in large of expressing those traits.

Satoshi/Ash

And now then, Ash. What can we say about Ash that we have not known already? He is very rash, puts too much faith in doing something, persistent, and dimwitted. Ash's flaws really are negligable because he is the only character in this entire anime that must remain the same as he is. As long as the writers decide to keep Ash as the main protagonist, he must somehow "forget" the skills and strategies that he had invented in the past for the purpose of "levelling the playing field," and allowing Ash to remain as an inexperienced individual. This is to make sure that Ash does not have powerful pokemon on the bat, and to stretch the longevity of this series as a whole.

Ash may have used very decent strategies back in AG and DP, but in BW, the character appears to go back to the basics of charging in to attack and providing very little defense. Ash's specialty is raising pokemon that are fast and offensive, and as such, his opponents are able to easily come up with a counterattack. Both Cress and Lenora crippled Ash's offensive strategy at first and disrupted his synergy with the pokemon he had intended to use. Arti and Trip used strategies focused on the actual surroundings of the battle to counter Ash's offense. There really is nothing left to say about Ash except that he is blindly stupid and tends to charge in without any caution or hesitation.

Like Iris, Ash tends to have a big mouth sometimes, and it is because of his big mouth that he gets in more trouble than what it is worth. At the same time, Ash is able to convince his pokemon to work alongside him in order for them to become stronger. Ash is extremely optimistic, and rarely becomes depressed.

It is because of this trait that pokemon love to work with him and to trust him when things are at their darkest. In this series, Ash's persistence got Pidove, who had failed to blow away the Venipede at first back in BW022, to continue fighting back and work hard until it succeeded (which led to her evolution). This also got Oshawott and Tepig to learn and master Aqua Jet and Flame Charge, respectively. Ash is able to hasten his pokemon's growth by actively working alongside them. He acknowledges his mistakes in battling, which can be readily understood since this is a show for entertainment purposes (the growth tends to be downplayed due to continuity issues).

Final Conclusion

At this moment, I feel that Iris has the most flaws when handling her pokemon. She tends to be very supportive and encouraging when times are tough, and aside from her childish tirades about the behaviors of her contemporaries, gets along with other members of the group. Ash seems to have the most flaws as a person, which again, is downplayed largely due to the fact that the knowledge and strategies he had accumulated in the past few series were largely neglected for the purpose of entertainment. Cilan is in the middle; he is very overconfident in battle, and as a person, becomes very wary of the intentions of others.

It is because these characters have flaws that they are human and that their storylines and presence in the anime are very interesting. Why else would we watch this anime if we just see characters getting along and people succeeding in every single one of their endeavors? Struggle is a part of growth, and it is only natural to convey that sense of growth (if only temporarily).

Cilan and Iris have very long-term goals that must be addressed in short term (that is, they will most likely disappear from this show after Ash leaves the Unova Region). They have very little reason to exist on the short-term, and the writers compensate their lack of activity by providing them other obstacles to overcome. In Cilan's case, it is giving his character additional outlets in which he can express himself. For Iris, it is providing her other pokemon to test her patience and diligence as a pokemon trainer.