Thread: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

Originally Posted by gotpika

Dento pointed out her problem

Dento points out that she was wrong about why Doryuuzu was in Drill Mode, not that she had caused it in the first place, which the episode goes out of its way to say she didn't. That it was all on Doryuuzu.

Nope, she learned to understand him more

She understood what was wrong with him, i.e. that he didn't trust her, but the episode never justified that mistrust initially by having Iris cross a line and cause that mistrust, which made understanding him pointless since it didn't reflect on her learning something about herself. Given that she hasn't acted differently in that episodes as she did in the past, she hasn't learned anything. Ergo, no development.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Dento points out that she was wrong about why Doryuuzu was in Drill Mode, not that she had caused it in the first place, which the episode goes out of its way to say she didn't. That it was all on Doryuuzu.

Nope, it was Iris just like mothers have to understand there children, Iris has to understand her Pokemon.

She understood what was wrong with him, i.e. that he didn't trust her, but the episode never justified that mistrust initially by having Iris cross a line and cause that mistrust, which made understanding him pointless since it didn't reflect on her learning something about herself. Given that she hasn't acted differently in that episodes as she did in the past, she hasn't learned anything. Ergo, no development.

She crossed the line by peer pressuring her Pokemon who knew better, in the end she learned this and became a better person. That's why she isn't pressuring Emonga and Kibago, that's her change :P

Originally Posted by gotpika

Iris has to understand her Pokemon.

Except... she was shown doing just that in the battle. She recognized that Doryuuzu was freaking out, and therefore encouraged him by telling him she believed in him, and was subsequently shown to care everytime he got hit, not cause it meant losing the match but because she cared about seeing him injured, which explains her reaction when he got knocked. She didn't cross the line by putting victory over Doryuuzu's health and well-being. She wasn't show to be angry or short with Doryuuzu, but caring and compassionate. My point is that all of those things, is the writers wanting to portray Iris in a positive light, which in turn undermines the significance of Doryuuzu's reaction, making it seem like all the fault rests on him, which in turns stunts all possible development.

Development that is then further stunted by Doryuuzu agreeing with what Iris had said in the first place, and agreed that when facing a strong opponent, you have to stay in the battle and give it your all. But Iris acted the same way in her rematch with Langley as she did in her match with Shaga. Had the same attitude.

That's why she isn't pressuring Emonga and Kibago, that's her change

That makes no sense. Her attitude with Kibago or Emonga was exactly the same before and after the episode. You're implying that Iris "changing" in BW033 explains how she's always been acting all this time, both before and after BW033. You're basically saying there's no change, which just proves my point.

But let's agree to disagree on this. I felt Iris developed in no way in that episode, and that the writers went out of their way to portray Iris in a positive light throughout which ultimately killed the conflict, killed the struggle, which just kills any reason to care or root for Iris for me. If you liked it, good on you. I still can't help but feeling this was one of the worst episodes this side of Johto.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Except... she was shown doing just that in the battle. She recognized that Doryuuzu was freaking out, and therefore encouraged him by telling him she believed in him, and was subsequently shown to care everytime he got hit, not cause it meant losing the match but because she cared about seeing him injured, which explains her reaction when he got knocked. She didn't cross the line by putting victory over Doryuuzu's health and well-being. She wasn't show to be angry or short with Doryuuzu, but caring and compassionate. My point is that all of those things, is the writers wanting to portray Iris in a positive light, which in turn undermines the significance of Doryuuzu's reaction, making it seem like all the fault rests on him, which in turns stunts all possible development.

Except, she admitted it was her fault, ergo being mature and character development :P

Development that is then further stunted by Doryuuzu agreeing with what Iris had said in the first place, and agreed that when facing a strong opponent, you have to stay in the battle and give it your all. But Iris acted the same way in her rematch with Langley as she did in her match with Shaga. Had the same attitude.



That makes no sense. Her attitude with Kibago or Emonga was exactly the same before and after the episode. You're implying that Iris "changing" in BW033 explains how she's always been acting all this time, both before and after BW033. You're basically saying there's no change, which just proves my point.

But let's agree to disagree on this. I felt Iris developed in no way in that episode, and that the writers went out of their way to portray Iris in a positive light throughout which ultimately killed the conflict, killed the struggle, which just kills any reason to care or root for Iris for me. If you liked it, good on you. I still can't help but feeling this was one of the worst episodes this side of Johto.

Nope, before that ep Iris learned not to be to hard on her Pokemon. She thought she wrong by losing the battle, that explains her training and way she treats Emonga and Kibago when she was wrong by not understanding his feelings. Don't know what Johto has to do with this though :P

But, if you wanna agree to disagree, we can then :P

Originally Posted by gotpika

Except, she admitted it was her fault, ergo being mature and character development

Except the way the episode portrayed Iris in that battle contradicts that statement. The way the writers portrayed Iris made it clear it wasn't her fault.

Nope, before that ep Iris learned not to be to hard on her Pokemon. She thought she wrong by losing the battle, that explains her training and way she treats Emonga and Kibago when she was wrong by not understanding his feelings.

That is just untrue. In the episode, Iris thought that Doryuuzu refused to listen to her because it couldn't handle its first loss, but she never thought she was wrong, and the episode actually made it seem like she'd been right, since Doryuuzu learns that he misunderstood Iris in that battle, and that she was right about what to do after a loss. The way she treats Kibago had actually changed before her "revelation" not because she herself changed, but because Kibago was becoming stronger. That's why she didn't hesitate to use Kibago against Langley. Her treatment of Emonga is constant. So, there's no change in Iris because of that episode. Iris didn't change.

But ultimately, that we're even having this conversation is proof of my point. In the way the writers handle all other characters' flaws, there's no hesitation, they have no problem portraying a character in an extremely negative light to the point where it's not open to interpretation that the character is doing something wrong, and they get called out for it. There's no half-measure in their portrayal of characters, and there's also no half-measure in the development of those characters. In Iris' case, they go through lenghts to have either her flaws not called out by anybody, or her problems not stemming from her, so that in the end. Development is a very small fraction of what it could have been. Here there was no conflict, no struggle, Doryuuzu just fell into line without Iris changing anything, about the way she acted in that battle, in her battle with Langley.

But, if you wanna agree to disagree, we can then :P

Let's.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Except the way the episode portrayed Iris in that battle contradicts that statement. The way the writers portrayed Iris made it clear it wasn't her fault.

But, it was her fault :P

That is just untrue. In the episode, Iris thought that Doryuuzu refused to listen to her because it couldn't handle its first loss, but she never thought she was wrong, and the episode actually made it seem like she'd been right, since Doryuuzu learns that he misunderstood Iris in that battle, and that she was right about what to do after a loss. The way she treats Kibago had actually changed before her "revelation" not because she herself changed, but because Kibago was becoming stronger. That's why she didn't hesitate to use Kibago against Langley. Her treatment of Emonga is constant. So, there's no change in Iris because of that episode. Iris didn't change.

But ultimately, that we're even having this conversation is proof of my point. In the way the writers handle all other characters' flaws, there's no hesitation, they have no problem portraying a character in an extremely negative light to the point where it's not open to interpretation that the character is doing something wrong, and they get called out for it. There's no half-measure in their portrayal of characters, and there's also no half-measure in the development of those characters. In Iris' case, they go through lenghts to have either her flaws not called out by anybody, or her problems not stemming from her, so that in the end. Development is a very small fraction of what it could have been. Here there was no conflict, no struggle, Doryuuzu just fell into line without Iris changing anything, about the way she acted in that battle, in her battle with Langley.

In Iris's case she was a child who was irresponsible and didn't understand her Pokemon's feelings, and the Dragon Master pummeled her that goes to show in her battle against Tsunbear too even then she struggled even after apologizing So, in the end Iris learned and became better overall, and she developed. :P

Let's.

Ok, then let's.

I feel this was only relevant during the first 20 or so BW eps when Iris really did seem like she was being ignored.

However she's now getting quite a bit of spotlight after every few eps, so I have nothing to complain about. Excadrill got its focus, Axew is battling more, and Emonga is starting to get decent screentime too.

This is all I would expect out of a sidekick character.

I decided to post here because it is getting off topic from the tournament thread:

Originally Posted by Hellion

When she was on the tree and Iris asked her to get back to battle, she refused, not caring one bit about costing Iris the battle. She was fine with battling until Chillarmy's tickle. That's when she flat out wanted out. There's no question of "still wanting Iris to win," she couldn't give a crap about Iris and her battles since she reused to go back to fight, not caring one bit about costing her trainer a battle, placing her own well-being and her disdain of getting it over her trainer.

I did say "or wanting her opponent to lose" but I guess a better wording or a better expression of what I was thinking of is that she wants someone in her place to battle and get the job done. Which when she was like that, Snivy was already battling Pignite so she did as she pleased. As I mentioned, she's not gonna have that luxury of another pokemon finishing the fight for her in the tournament. So the episode is gonna show us what she'll do if it is the case that Volt Switch doesn't work. We don't even know how the battle will work out so let's just wait and see what Emolga will do. But so far, it has been pretty consistent with Emolga's character.

Except Iris asking her to battle wasn't the motivator behind her decision. Tsutarja was. Iris contributed to the amount of zero in Emonga's decision to fight. Again, Emonga's main characteristic is that she doesn't want to be hit with an attack. Tsutarja saved her from getting hit, and because she felt indebted to Tsutarja and because she felt a rivalry with her and didn't want her to look too good, she fought.

She did not feel indebted to Snivy at all nor was their rivalry ever a deciding factor. I rewatched it to be sure, what happened was right when Emolga got saved, it started to step back and let Snivy battle Simisear all on her own. Then Snivy Vine Whip'd her back into the same place she was at. She was going back to her old ways and didn't care if Snivy was going to battle and save Emolga and all of them. Iris called out to Emolga, that's when she looked at Oshawott, then at Snivy struggling, and then decided to battle. I'm pretty much typing exactly what happened here. I personally didn't find any facial expression that showed Emolga was focused on being indebted by Snivy or showing any feeling of being upstaged. All she looked was worried for both Oshawott and Snivy once Iris said to "help out". That's when, imo, she thought the situation was important enough to battle in. I don't think she had that respect towards Snivy until Snivy shared the apple which happened afterwards.

But that's the thing. Tsutarja did something to warrant Emonga being willing to overlook her disdain of getting it, prompted a chance, whereas Iris didn't since Emonga has never been willing to get hit for her, to get hurt for her, and where that mistrust could have actually cost Iris something (read, it could have been Doryuuzu done right instead of the Iris can do no wrong crap we got instead), it magically doesn't happen and Emonga pulls off the win... again. That's two pokémon, well three the ep after with Kibago pulling moves out of thin air, who's problems magically disappear in a way that doesn't force Iris to question herself or change in the least, that doesn't cost her anything. Storylines and personalities bend to make Iris look good.

First, Emolga winning against Watchog is completely reasonable. Against Sawk, let's watch first before we say her problems magically disappear.

As for Axew learning a new move in battle, it has happened with Ash and other characters before. This is not new. Why fault Iris when she's not the only person getting the same treatment. There's Gible and Draco Meteor (not learning a move but more like perfecting a move that hasn't been shown to be improving as much), Ash's Buizel with Water Pulse, Ash's Sceptile with Solarbeam, Ash's Squirtle with Hydro Pump, and May's Combusken with Overheat. There's also Cilan's Dwebble who shows up with Rock Slide even though we don't see any training from them AT ALL. Then of course there's evolving mid-battle or mid-competition that's along the same lines.

So anyway, I personally think Iris is doing fine. Sure there's flaws to her character but so do most characters. She has been working with Axew constantly and she'll continue to work with him. Her and Excadrill had that episode to themselves which, for me, I really enjoyed. Emolga has that battle issue but of course but we'll see where it goes after the Sawk match. It's only episode 40 something so it's still pretty early. I don't even think May started doing contests by this time so with Iris having a rivalry with Langley, I'd personally say she's doing alright so far.

I personally feel that Iris has developed a decent amount so far. In the beginning, she seemed to be a hesitant battler, and I kinda figured that it had a lot to do with confidence issues. When being first introduced to her Doryuzu and how it wouldn't do anything had me curious, and the way she reacted before sending him out was telling too. I liked the fact that we learned what happened. IMO, it was a misunderstanding on both parts between them. That battle where Doryuzu lost his trust in Iris because (to me anyway) Iris didn't understand their limitations and how as a trainer, she probably should've sensed something like that was telling and Iris, to me, didn't try hard enough to get Doryuzu to open up. I guess she gave up too quickly.

To me, she was so focused in that battle on getting that victory, she didn't realize how shaken up Doryuzu really was. She came across (to me) as a person so focused on winning, she forgot the friend aspect of it. I know Ash has done that too. You know, been a battle, and knew that it wasn't worth it, called off the match and went to check on his Pokemon and stuff. I'm under the impression that that Doryuzu would've reacted better to Iris if she'd done that. Of course we know that Iris meant no harm and we do know she cared about him, but to Doryuzu, Iris must've come across as not fully caring about his well-being in that particular battle.

Iris admitting that she made a mistake is development, and it also helped her to gain more confidence in battling and training, I feel. She's doing it more now, especially with Doryuzu back on her side. So yeah, I do feel she's being developed okay, especially since she is only a sidekick.

Funny how her development went from very little to blasting fast by the time the tournament rolled around. Now she arguably feels as if she's the strongest trainer on the current cast, even though realistically Ash should be leagues above her.

Seems he should be leagues above everyone, but seems he gets a "reset" at the start of every new generation and goes back to being a beginner. As for Iris, I feel that making up with Doryuzu helped her a lot. I feel that it gave her a boost of confidence in her training abilities. I also feel that maybe the reason she didn't seem to train Kibago much was because of what happened with Doryuzu. Maybe she feared Kibago turning out like Doryuzu.

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

Seems he should be leagues above everyone, but seems he gets a "reset" at the start of every new generation and goes back to being a beginner. As for Iris, I feel that making up with Doryuzu helped her a lot. I feel that it gave her a boost of confidence in her training abilities. I also feel that maybe the reason she didn't seem to train Kibago much was because of what happened with Doryuzu. Maybe she feared Kibago turning out like Doryuzu.

Iris never had a problem with confidence. Right now, it just feels like the writers are giving her far too many perks. Game status aside, she hasn't been shown to lose like Ash, and Cilan have. She sits on the sidelines, and whenever there is someone that needs to lose it usually Ash that get's picked. The same can be said with the upcoming subway master battle. Ash, and Cilan are going to battle...ultimately losing while Iris is sitting pretty on the sidelines. Whenever she get's screen time it's just used to glorify her further. So far everything has been handed to her through plot, without her actually having to really work like Ash does. It's like they're rushing the fuck out of the her character, and just tossing her wins/plot convenience because they can't figure how to make a character who is the "8th Gym leader" compelling.

There's also really no reason for her to be written to have an edge over Ash. At all. Dumbing him down for that purpose really hurts the continuity of his character. He has nothing to learn from her. So her defeating him in the finals of the tournament just felt forced especially since the match-up was Excadrill vs freaking Pikachu, and because the writers apparently have no interest even bothering to change the dynamics. Unless they think dragging the dynamics out as such is good story-telling for some strange reason. Yeah...blah blah they shook hands all that jazz, but the point still stands. I mean she would have actually learned something similar to Cilan when he got defeated by Ash. They choose not to go that route, because apparently only Ash (along with Cilan, Trip, Burgundy, Georgia, and Stephen) need to improve. Not Iris, nope.

It really begs the question why the writers dicked around with her character for so long, with no real apparent reason. The tournament comes, and all of the sudden it's like "ROAAR IRIS SMASH." Grade A shoddy writing right there.

What do you mean the writers are doing enough? The show isn't even close to being over yet and this question is already being asked? Are we that bored with her already?

Originally Posted by Caseydia

Are we that bored with her already?

Bored? It has nothing to do with being "bored" of her character. It's how she's being presented, and handled up until this point that's the problem. Ultimately she's being presented as a character whose "development" goes contrary to how every main character has developed til this point.

I think she has decent screentime for the type of character she is. I just think she needs to be humbled a bit and go through an arc.