Thread: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

Originally Posted by Hellion

Originally Posted by Human

Do you think that if Iris didn't encourage Axew in previous episodes to keep on practising the move to eventually master it, him learning it at that moment would have been believable?

Assuming the way it learned it was believable... which... it wasn't.

Iris said in the comic that she still has a long way to go before she becomes a Dragon Master

Does she? What exactly does she lack? She has no problems, she always knows everything about Dragons, she can already synch her hearts with them, she's got a superpowerful one that rivals a Champion's Pokémon and goes toe-to-toe with legendaries. The Animé goes out of its way to say that Iris does nothing wrong and already knows everything, never makes her struggle or lose. So... Does she have a long way to go? I don't see it.

I agree with this in some ways. She said that she had a long way to go back then, but she has already done more within the first 90 episodes more than any other trainers on this show. And it was quick too. I get the fast pacedness but maybe it would have been better if she was the eigth gymleader, that way all of this makes more sense to me. But since there is no sign that she is one right now, it makes me feel sorry for Misty since it took her forever to get a real powerful water type while also facing her fears in the process. But in the end she still had a long way to go. But like you said, I don't see that with Iris. Misty can't read water Pokemon's hearts so she has to study and train her butt off.

I'm thinking that when all of this is over she might end up staying somewhere to get stronger in order to become a dragon master like she wants. Because I can't just see her becoming a champion so easily when other champions in this show are older and have trained for years.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Originally Posted by Human

Do you think that if Iris didn't encourage Axew in previous episodes to keep on practising the move to eventually master it, him learning it at that moment would have been believable?

Assuming the way it learned it was believable... which... it wasn't.

Because we all know that the 6 times Axew used it onscreen before mastering it were the only times he ever tried to master it :P You're probably going to say that there should have been a sense of progression with the move now like with Draco Meteor. I strongly disagree with that. They're completely different moves.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Does she? What exactly does she lack? She has no problems, she always knows everything about Dragons, she can already synch her hearts with them, she's got a superpowerful one that rivals a Champion's Pokémon and goes toe-to-toe with legendaries. The Animé goes out of its way to say that Iris does nothing wrong and already knows everything, never makes her struggle or lose. So... Does she have a long way to go? I don't see it.

When did the Anime go out of its way to say that Iris does nothing wrong, already knows everything, never made her struggle or lose? That's a lie. When a character knows of their problems they try to solve them. If Iris was this girl that knew everything about Dragons, why does she nearly always have to rely on somebody else to advance. Iris can't even synch with the hearts of Dragons at their fullest, and even when she does, its either when they're feeling weak and down or when they let her. One of the requirements to be a Dragon Master is to maximize Dragon Pokemon's strength. Kairyu's level of strength does not reflect on her training methods to maximize its strength. Whenever the audience sees Kairyu being strong, they don't think of Iris being this great trainer that could train such a beast. Any success hitting a legendary and win comes from Kairyu's capabilities, not Iris. Any wins Kairyu gives to Iris is a way to show his thanks of what she and her friends did to save him. What Iris can do is make it stronger if possible or get that thing to teach Kibago DRAGON POWAHOUSE stuff :P

Which does bring an interesting point in Iris' wins with the Kairyu since it trained by itself to be that level... Though, I can say the same thing with every capture of a Pokemon that was portrayed to be strong.

Originally Posted by Hellion

The common thing about both episodes is that characters other than Dent got to play their part, got to bring their own expertise, their own story, their own contribution to the plot, unlike Kairyu's debut where everyone was downgraded and did nothing but talk about how great Iris was and how utterly useless they were to help her. Satoshi might have been shown to do some mistakes, or have some flaws (which in the movie episode's case actually made him quite endearing), but it balanced it out by showing him in a positive light, being skilled, being knowledgeable, etc. There's a balance there that lacked in Kairyu's debut.

There was a balance in Kairyu's debut with other characters getting their parts too. Both episodes(referring to Kairyu and Pod episode) had somebody taking a back seat. Iris took a back seat in the Pod episode, and Dent took one in this episode(though he did apparently get the video in his Ipad to show it to Junsa). Everybody had a part to play, bringing in their own contribution. Iris, Satoshi, Hikari and their Pokemon along with Meloetta get into the room, Satoshi and Hikari use their Pokemon to try to calm it down from going crazy not Iris, Meloetta intervenes and calms it down with its singing not Iris, the supposed Dragon Master here who should have calmed it down here if she really was the know it all you say she is, Satoshi and Hikari go to tell Junsa, only for Kairyu to use Flamethrower one last time, closing the broken wall, leaving Iris in. With Kairyu being weak, Iris gets the chance to use her limited Dragon heart reading powers that she already had in the episode of the Crimgan to find out what happened and tells Satoshi to get the proof. Satoshi tells Hikari and Dent to help him find the proof, they find it not Iris, they show it to Junsa not Iris, Kairyu is proven to be innocent thanks to Iris, Dent, Hikari and Satoshi, the quartet looks good. They contributed to the plot and its resolution. Hikari being a coordinator and Dent being a Pokemon Sommelier had no business, no importance and no relevance to be in the plot. They didn't talk about how great Iris was and how utterly pointless and useless they were when they helped in the resolution.

To say that they did...... is nothing more than a lie.

You're probably going to say that there should have been a sense of progression with the move now like with Draco Meteor. I strongly disagree with that. They're completely different moves.

I would say that and there should have been, but it's more than that. The show treated this as an issue, a problem. Iris was getting frustrated with the lack of progress at one point, had no answers as to how to get the attack to work. Then poof, it works. just like that. Iris didn't have to change anything, to try different thing, her character wasn't challenged by it, didn't struggle. Failure followed by effort and success is compelling. Failure followed by plot magic isn't.

When did the Anime go out of its way to say that Iris does nothing wrong, already knows everything, never made her struggle or lose?

Emmy episode, Doryuuzu episode, Don Battle, Donamite, Shirona debut, Kairyu intro, Junior Cup, and just about every episode that focuses on Iris.

There was a balance in Kairyu's debut

Satoshi and Hikari almost constantly sing Iris' praises throughout the episode and have to wait to be told by her what to do like they're complete idiots. Junsa, after being told that Kairyu was hurt pretty much said, "Yeah, I don't care, I'm getting some strong trainer to hurt it even more cause I'm such a bitch" acting completely idiotic and cruel, just so Iris could deliver her "Dragons would never do no harm" speech. Hikari was shown to be completely vain just so Iris could comment on how vain she was and the examples go on and on. Nobody really had a purpose into this episode than making Iris look good, but that could only be achieved through thoroughly derailing the characters. Satoshi and Hikari who almost always assume the best out of Pokémon originally believe Junsa's story until Iris sets them straight. Satoshi, who's always active, always trying to do something literally says, "There's nothing we can do, we all depend on you Iris" or "Iris won't need your Pokéball, she'll succeed for sure." They weren't portrayed as great trainers, they were treated like puppets at the the service of Black Hole Iris.

Which is the exact same thing I feel with Iris episodes. For example, in the Emmy episode, Satoshi and Emmy fought off the rockets not Iris and he also helped Emmy to try to connect with her Crimgan by battling it with his Pokabu not Iris. To say he hasn't contributed anything in her episodes or that he's Iris' puppet is taking the context, twisting it and exaggerating it to go how you want it to be to feed your stigma to hate on Iris, making you make many logical fallacies. btw I don't hate Dento, I actually like him a lot

I think you should rewatch that episode, @Human; because you're casually forgetting a lot of stuff in your "analysis" and that's actually one of the best examples of Black Hole Iris syndrome. Satoshi did nothing to help Emmy connect with her Crimgan but serve as her punching bag as Iris told her everything to do and then proceeded to destroy Pokabu cause Satoshi and Pokabu are just helpless and weak in front of Iris' master strategies and the power of Dragon Pokémon. That was after Iris was shown to know everything about Dragons, helping poor stupid Emmy who can't even protect her own dragon and can only stare in awe in front of Iris and constantly talk about how much she's so much better than her. Only to have Satoshi and Dent jump in with how awesome Iris' goal is. And then the dragons get kidnapped, everyone is helpless, except Iris who can do everything they can't: think, jump higher, run faster, feel her Kibago when it's miles away with her special powers that no one else has. Druddigon with all his power causes less damage than Kibago with his overpowered and super powerful Dragon Rage that even as it fails brings the ship down. Battle against TR where Iris once again displayed how much she knows about Dragons when she recognizes Draco Meteor and then cue Kibago's Dragon Rage problem who magically disappear when it's conveniently time to show the Dragon Rage that's pretty much portrayed as being more powerful than Draco Meteor and forces Team Rocket to retreat.

Emmy in this episode was designed to allow Iris free rein to display all her knowledge, power and skill in comparison to this dumb and lackluster CotD. She had no purpose outside of making Iris look good, she didn't exist as her own character. Compared to say the Pod episode, where Pod actually was his own character, had his own existence, had his own storyline, was made to look both bad and good, to have flaws and qualities... Dent acknowledging that he used to be wrong about his style and that Satoshi had taught him a lot.

The problem was... Emmy, no matter how bland and lackluster she was, felt like the main character here, rather than Iris, who felt like the CotD, game character cameo who comes to help along the heroin for an episode. There was no flaw, no balance, no doubt, no struggle, there was just Black Hole Iris sucking the personality and relevance of everyone around as they became her puppets. That pattern repeated itself in the Don Battle, that pattern repeated itself in most episodes focusing on Iris, that pattern repeated itself with the Kairyu capture and the Junior Cup debacle. We're meant to see Iris as this person who's already a master, already a pure radiant flawless saint, a special snowflake, someone who's just better than every other main character combined, but does nothing to warrant this attention, those achievements and gets them at the expense of more compelling and better written characters who get derailed to make her look good.

Originally Posted by Hellion

I would say that and there should have been, but it's more than that. The show treated this as an issue, a problem. Iris was getting frustrated with the lack of progress at one point, had no answers as to how to get the attack to work. Then poof, it works. just like that. Iris didn't have to change anything, to try different thing, her character wasn't challenged by it, didn't struggle. Failure followed by effort and success is compelling. Failure followed by plot magic isn't.

Had no answers? She said that by practice, Kibago was going to eventually learn it. I really don't get why it's some requirement for Iris to change anything, try something different, be challenged as a character or struggle over her Kibago mastering one move like everybody else where the same thing happened. Kibago was pressured and learned it. I don't need any more reason. The attack still destroyed the helicopter. The others didn't need it, you didn't complain about them not having to face the things you listed, so why complain specifically about Iris?

Originally Posted by Hellion

Emmy episode, Doryuuzu episode, Don Battle, Donamite, Shirona debut, Kairyu intro, Junior Cup, and just about every episode that focuses on Iris.

In the Emmy episode, she herself says she needs to know how to connect with their hearts and maximize their power. So yeah, she does not know everything. Doryuuzu episode showed her to be in the wrong(somehow you and the other people who do not like Iris are the only ones that say that Iris wasn't to blame here). Winning a tournament did not mean that Iris is this unbeatable trainer. Her win was used to create tension with Masaomi when he beat her Doryuuzu quickly and is now going to be used to make Satoshi look extremely good when he beats Kairyu. You strangely don't mention the Monozu episode(I guess you technically did with the "every episode that focus on Iris part"), where Iris takes care of 1 Pokemon that the caretaker didn't have time to help, where Dent and Satoshi take care of every other Pokemon. In the same episode, IIRC(so I might be wrong), Iris says that whoever ignored Monozu was going to pay. She even shows her anger with the person that came to get his Tamagetake back, thinking that he was the trainer of Monozu. Satoshi and Dent tell her that everything will be okay and that they were ready to go, she disagrees and decides to stay. Iris was in the wrong the whole time.

Donamite? Where she easily got defeated by Masaomi to create tension and hype for his battle against Kenyan? Shinora return and Kairyu episode? What's wrong? Junior Cup? "I CAN'T GET CLOSE TO MY OWN POKEMON OR TRY TO TAME IT IN FEAR OF IT HURTING MEEEE!" xD (cue in Shirona getting close to it with no problem)

Originally Posted by Hellion

Satoshi and Hikari almost constantly sing Iris' praises throughout the episode and have to wait to be told by her what to do like they're complete idiots.

Uhh... What was wrong with Iris telling them to help Kairyu and for them to prove Kairyu's innocence?

Originally Posted by Hellion

Junsa, after being told that Kairyu was hurt pretty much said, "Yeah, I don't care, I'm getting some strong trainer to hurt it even more cause I'm such a bitch" acting completely idiotic and cruel, just so Iris could deliver her "Dragons would never do no harm" speech.

Uhh... She wanted the strong trainers to use their Pokemon to force the Kairyu out in fear. She even asked Kairyu to calmly leave. When she saw that Kairyu pushed Iris(giving the idea to Junsa that Kairyu could be very harmful to people) was when she decided to to attack it by force.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Hikari was shown to be completely vain just so Iris could comment on how vain she was and the examples go on and on.

Iris simply commented that it was a hassle for Hikari to work on her hair, with Hikari then telling her that it's a coordinator's job to look in top shape. We've seen Hikari plenty of times being vain with her hair whenever it got messy in DP. It was just girl talk. No big deal.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Nobody really had a purpose into this episode than making Iris look good, but that could only be achieved through thoroughly derailing the characters.

Meoletta calmed down the Kairyu. Satoshi thanked her. Meloetta looks good. Iris is attacked by the Kairyu, Hikari and Satoshi save her ass with Mijumaru and Pochama. They look great being the heroes who saved her life. They go get the evidence to prove Kairyu's innocence not Iris, they look good too.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Satoshi and Hikari who almost always assume the best out of Pokémon originally believe Junsa's story until Iris sets them straight.

Satoshi never showed any signs of disapproval. Hikari assumes the best out of Pokemon when she hears that they caused havoc? Never got that idea from her in the Darkrai movie.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Satoshi, who's always active, always trying to do something literally says, "There's nothing we can do, we all depend on you Iris"

He couldn't do anything because he wasn't in the room with Kairyu. He depended on Iris to settle it out with Kairyu to leave because she was the one in the room.

Originally Posted by Hellion

or "Iris won't need your Pokéball, she'll succeed for sure."

What's wrong with this? Satoshi had faith in Haruka and Hikari that they'd win the Grand Festival. They didn't win it. He had faith in Iris here to calm Kairyu down. Meoletta calmed it down instead. Hikari not Iris tells him to get the Pokeball from Junsa to capture it after it calmed down because Iris failed to send it out of the power plant It's one of Satoshi's personality traits to have such faith in his friends. Btw, Hikari tells Iris if she's sure that she's capable of handling the Kairyu.

Originally Posted by Hellion

They weren't portrayed as great trainers, they were treated like puppets at the the service of Black Hole Iris.

I thought that their bravery going in the room and fighting off the roughneck Kairyu with Mijumaru and Pochama (saving Iris' life!) was both amazing and brave. She didn't even command them to attack it or stop them.

Which is the exact same thing I feel with Iris episodes. For example, in the Emmy episode, Satoshi and Emmy fought off the rockets not Iris and he also helped Emmy to try to connect with her Crimgan by battling it with his Pokabu not Iris. To say he hasn't contributed anything in her episodes or that he's Iris' puppet is taking the context, twisting it and exaggerating it to go how you want it to be to feed your stigma to hate on Iris, making you make many logical fallacies. btw I don't hate Dento, I actually like him a lot

Originally Posted by Hellion

I think you should rewatch that episode, @Human; because you're casually forgetting a lot of stuff in your "analysis" and that's actually one of the best examples of Black Hole Iris syndrome.

I watched the episode again before, checked what I said and confirmed my thoughts. I'm pretty sure that I don't have some imaginary "syndrome" or something.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Satoshi did nothing to help Emmy connect with her Crimgan but serve as her punching bag as Iris told her everything to do and then proceeded to destroy Pokabu cause Satoshi and Pokabu are just helpless and weak in front of Iris' master strategies and the power of Dragon Pokémon.

Uhh:

Originally Posted by Hellion

Losing a match doesn't mean that Satoshi was downgraded.

Dragon-type Pokemon have always been portrayed to be strong. I already knew that Pokabu was no match for him. It was a training match that gave some development to Pokabu facing such a strong opponent that was not trained by Iris and Emmy.

Originally Posted by Hellion

That was after Iris was shown to know everything about Dragons, helping poor stupid Emmy who can't even protect her own dragon and can only stare in awe in front of Iris and constantly talk about how much she's so much better than her.

I don't recall such thing happening.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Only to have Satoshi and Dent jump in with how awesome Iris' goal is.

It is awesome ^_^ Is there a problem?

Originally Posted by Hellion

And then the dragons get kidnapped, everyone is helpless, except Iris who can do everything they can't: think, jump higher, run faster, feel her Kibago when it's miles away with her special powers that no one else has.

Dragon-type trainers must have those special powers as well.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Druddigon with all his power causes less damage than Kibago with his overpowered and super powerful Dragon Rage that even as it fails brings the ship down.

All Druddigon did was punch the helicopter to get out. Even if the move did fail(thanks for making me remember), it still caused a huge explosion.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Battle against TR where Iris once again displayed how much she knows about Dragons when she recognizes Draco Meteor

Why shouldn't she recognize it?

Originally Posted by Hellion

and then cue Kibago's Dragon Rage problem who magically disappear when it's conveniently time to show the Dragon Rage that's pretty much portrayed as being more powerful than Draco Meteor and forces Team Rocket to retreat.

The attack wasn't a direct hit to Team Rocket. Kibago mastering Dragon Rage? What's the problem? He practised the move and eventually mastered it like how Iris said would happen. She was being impatient because she wanted him to master it faster. Making Team Rocket blast off with their jetpacks required Pikachu's Electro Ball as well.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Emmy in this episode was designed to allow Iris free rein to display all her knowledge, power and skill in comparison to this dumb and lackluster CotD. She had no purpose outside of making Iris look good, she didn't exist as her own character.

Problem? I never got the feeling of Emmy being dumb for taking advice.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Compared to say the Pod episode, where Pod actually was his own character, had his own existence, had his own storyline, was made to look both bad and good, to have flaws and qualities... Dent acknowledging that he used to be wrong about his style and that Satoshi had taught him a lot.

Pod is a game character who already appeared in a previous episode. More importance = More effort put in. You're comparing apples to oranges here. Emmy is a CotD. Pod isn't.

Originally Posted by Hellion

The problem was... Emmy, no matter how bland and lackluster she was, felt like the main character here, rather than Iris, who felt like the CotD, game character cameo who comes to help along the heroin for an episode.

She felt like that to you? Odd. Okay.

Originally Posted by Hellion

There was no flaw, no balance, no doubt, no struggle, there was just Black Hole Iris sucking the personality and relevance of everyone around as they became her puppets.

Why? Is it a requirement? There usually is none of that in episodes focused on other characters.

Originally Posted by Hellion

That pattern repeated itself in the Don Battle, that pattern repeated itself in most episodes focusing on Iris, that pattern repeated itself with the Kairyu capture and the Junior Cup debacle. We're meant to see Iris as this person who's already a master, already a pure radiant flawless saint, a special snowflake, someone who's just better than every other main character combined, but does nothing to warrant this attention, those achievements and gets them at the expense of more compelling and better written characters who get derailed to make her look good.

We are meant to see her that way? Never got that feeling to be honest.

Originally Posted by Human

But you yourself say in Iris episode review threads that when characters are downgraded just so something compelling can happen, it loses what it's trying to convey. I may be wrong in what I just said, but that's what you've been strongly implying, so please tell me if I am.

Bringing it here because this discussion is more about Iris than Dent. That's not exactly what I'm saying. Once again, you're making a general rule out of specific comments that only make sense in the episode where they appear, arguing against my comments by pointing out that I don't say the same for Dent episodes. I don't, because those episodes are built differently, with different characters, different storylines, etc. I never said that every time a character doesn't use a strategy or is made to lose so another character can win, it's bad writing. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not.

In the Pod episode, we have a character facing a problem that has been brewing since BW005, shown to be wrong, shown to admit how wrong he was and being able to take in advice on how to get better, work hard to put it all in practice and getting a win that's thoroughly deserved because of everything he previously, because he overcame his flaws and worked past his struggles. That's character development, that's an entertaining, compelling episode, and that's with Pod being a side character. It also has very minimal impact, it's not like it really cost Satoshi anything than a practice match before his gym battle and the episode went out of its way to still show Satoshi in a positive light. It also didn't portray Pod as amazingly strong or unbeatable, just went from bad to good. On the other hand, with Iris in the Kairyu episode (and other episodes), she has really done nothing previous to this episode to deserve a Kairyu falling on her lap. It's not like she worked hard for it, it's not like she had to learn, grow and progress to reach that level, it just falls in her lap like magic, conveniently right before a huge tournament. But of course, Iris can do no wrong, therefore she can't learn from her mistakes, she can't grow, she's stuck in the same place, so everyone else has to do the mistakes to create a hollow situation where Iris can be made to look good to justify her getting Kairyu by having Junsa being extremely uncaring and almost cruel, by having everyone talk about how amazing she is. And even after getting it, she's not training with it, not doing anything and ramming through opponents at the Junior Cup to stress how much stronger her Pokémon is than anybody else, when she had no business making it past the first round.

Honestly, that Satoshi loses by saying, "Dodge" instead of "Block" is meaningless, it led to character development for a character that deserved it. That Iris gets a Kairyu leads nowhere and make her look better than other characters. Honestly, why not have Kairyu listen to Iris (like he seemed to want to do at the end of BW089), only for her to lose because she wasn't enough in synch with him, didn't quite know how to bring out its true power, have Iris make a mistake, learn from it, train, get better and merit Kairyu, merit beating Langley in a rematch.

Yeah like with how Iris quickly lost with her Doryuuzu (who made her win the Don Battles) in the Donamite against Masaomi to make him look like a big threat to create a lot tension in his battle against Kenyan.

After being made to win against Cabernet. Again, I have no problem with Iris losing to Masaomi, but if that's her only purpose in this tournament, then why throw another character under the bus to make her look good before her loss? Why not just have her lose in the first round? Especially with how she won that battle, she was being completely and thoroughly outmatched by Cabernet who just had better strategy. Once again, Iris really did nothing prior to the tournament to warrant that win, just pretty much sat on her hands after the Don Battle. It makes it seem like she's above training, above struggling, but still gets better results than characters who do.

Originally Posted by Human

She said that by practice, Kibago was going to eventually learn it.

And is never wrong about it. Why is she on a journey if there's nothing to gain from it? If she already knows everything, has all of the answers? Why was she frustrated then when Kibago wasn't getting it and Dent and Satoshi were calling Dragon Sneeze if she knew it was going to get better? She's a main character in a show that's about growing and being changed by the journey, meeting new people and new Pokémon along the way, yet she's never forced to change, because she's never shown to have any flaws.

In the Emmy episode, she herself says she needs to know how to connect with their hearts and maximize their power.

Yet the episodes shows she can already do that, that she already possesses that ability. And that's the main problem with Iris' episodes, they say things, but don't back it up in an actual storyline. Like in the Doryuuzu episode. She says she's sorry, but the episode go out of its way to show her not really doing anything wrong, compared with other protagonists where their flaws actually have consequences, costs, actually get them portrayed in a bad light.

Winning a tournament did not mean that Iris is this unbeatable trainer.

No, but the way she won that tournament doesn't really make her a well-balanced character. Having Emonga's reluctance to battle and slight disobedience towards Iris magically vanish, by having her lack of training with Kibago and her lack of strategy not cost her a semi-finals against Luke who was completely owning her. By having Satoshi coming up with original strategies in his battle against Iris, only to have Doryuuzu be unfazed and win not with strategy, not through skill, but just by being portrayed to be overwhelmingly stronger than pretty much all of Satoshi's pokémon at the time combined. So, yeah, winning one tournament doesn't make any character unbeatable. Winning it like that, by having all potential problems and storylines thrown out just to craft a win that Iris really hasn't earned by doing the least amount of battling and training throughout the show until then... it's just bad writing.

I personally find other characters in Best Wishes to be balanced, to not be portrayed as uber-trainers, to have some flaws, to work, to overcome, to be shown to still have things to learn, but I can't really feel compelled to watch a girl who's supposed to travel to learn already know everything, who's supposed to train her Kibago, not do it, but still have it not be a problem when it's convenient, who doesn't need to really have any strategy or skill because her Pokémon are just so much stronger than everyone else, who barely battles, doesn't train, but is shown to be stronger than people who honestly should wipe the floor with her. There's no balance, she's either doing nothing or overpowering everything in sight, but we don't see her ever be vulnerable, human. And that's sad.

I'll move this here just to be on the safe side.

Originally Posted by Playerking

And Iris did deserve to get this far, sure the fact that Dragonite hasn't been listening to her in the first two battles, but sometimes using the obvious attacks like Flamethrower shouldn't be the only way to go about things, which is what Iris tried to command Dragnonite to use.

I'm afraid I don't follow you. How exactly does Dragonite using the most effective attacks on its own somehow make the victories deserved?

That's just the problem right there: Dragonite won the battles for Iris rather than with her, by attacking and finishing the opponent without her command (like what happened when Axew temporarily pulled Outrage out of nowhere). Doesn't exactly scream well-deserved to me.

Also, it does seem like a strong Pokemon, regardless of what Pokemon it goes up against and at least it'll be listening to her now.

... Yyyeah... Too strong for a Pokemon who just decided to come with Iris without a battle if you ask me - the other problem with her getting that far into the tournament. And listening to her now apparently doesn't mean a thing since she still loses, anyway.

actually,it almost feels like they don't know what to do with Iris. at first they pretty much had her set up to be like this Generation's Misty, since she is pursuing a goal to be the master of a Type of Pokemon(and according to the games, she pretty much will do that one day.) but unlike Misty,she is not devoting herself to hat goal well. this Meme i made sumsit up best:



the basic problem is that she spends more time working on aPoke she already trained 2 years ago and a Poke that isn't going to evolve then her Axew, the Monster that wants to become a Haxorus someday...and according to Bulbapedia and Axew'smove learning rate, it should have bloody evolved already. i mean I know that the thing is Dragon types are supposed to be the most difficult pokemon to raise, but Axew Learning Outrage and Giga impact already(20 levels after it would have evolved,btw) is pure Taurosshit.

and there is the whole dragonite issue, which as we all know was just done in a vain attempt to hide the writer's screwups they did this whole time with her. if they really wanted to make a reference to her current power status in the games, wouldn't it have made more sense to...I dunno, maybe come up with some plot to have Iris maybe get a lapras(maybe Ash's old one he set free) to join her and that way kill 3 birds with one stone by having a Powerful poke for her, having a reference to the game, AND having a plot setup for her to eventually conquer her fear of ice? i mean yeah, it's cheesy, but still less cheesy then doing the "powerful disobedient Pokemon" schtick they did for her THREE TIMES ALREADY.

Originally Posted by fawfulmark2

actually,it almost feels like they don't know what to do with Iris. at first they pretty much had her set up to be like this Generation's Misty, since she is pursuing a goal to be the master of a Type of Pokemon(and according to the games, she pretty much will do that one day.) but unlike Misty,she is not devoting herself to hat goal well. this Meme i made sumsit up best:

I've gotten that same feeling from watching Iris as well. They established her flaws right from the start, but I don't think that they knew how to handle her overcoming those flaws without a battle-active sidequest like Contests where they're forced to do more with her character. Since she's a sidekick character, I don't think that they knew how to make her development work out well, so they altered her backstory to make it look like she's already a strong trainer, despite clearly not being as a great as they make her out to be.

Originally Posted by fawfulmark2

the basic problem is that she spends more time working on aPoke she already trained 2 years ago and a Poke that isn't going to evolve then her Axew, the Monster that wants to become a Haxorus someday...and according to Bulbapedia and Axew'smove learning rate, it should have bloody evolved already. i mean I know that the thing is Dragon types are supposed to be the most difficult pokemon to raise, but Axew Learning Outrage and Giga impact already(20 levels after it would have evolved,btw) is pure Taurosshit.

The level issue isn't too problematic for me since levels, at least like how they are in the games, don't exist in the anime and other small Pokemon have learned powerful moves that normally come after they evolve. The main issue with Axew learning Outrage and Giga Impact is that it hasn't done anything to actually make learning either one of those moves believable. It's just to give the illusion that Axew has become stronger, even though it clearly hasn't, while still keeping it cute and marketable. Honestly, I think that they could have pulled that off fairly decently, but they needed to have Axew being more battle active and save learning something like Outrage and Gigia Impact for near the end of the series, preferably after many attempts to make it work. Axew learning Outrage was just a giant deus ex machina so that Iris could win the first Club Battle tournament, even though she had no reason not to, and Giga Impact was just to give it a fourth move. The fact that Axew could easily use those moves, despite having problems with a basic Dragon Rage attack, is also really problematic as well.

Originally Posted by fawfulmark2

and there is the whole dragonite issue, which as we all know was just done in a vain attempt to hide the writer's screwups they did this whole time with her. if they really wanted to make a reference to her current power status in the games, wouldn't it have made more sense to...I dunno, maybe come up with some plot to have Iris maybe get a lapras(maybe Ash's old one he set free) to join her and that way kill 3 birds with one stone by having a Powerful poke for her, having a reference to the game, AND having a plot setup for her to eventually conquer her fear of ice? i mean yeah, it's cheesy, but still less cheesy then doing the "powerful disobedient Pokemon" schtick they did for her THREE TIMES ALREADY.

I still would have preferred Iris not to get a fourth Pokemon just because all of her other ones are full of bad writing and I didn't think she deserved one. Plus, I honestly don't see the point of referring Iris' video game status when anime Iris and video game Iris are two completely different characters. I definitely wouldn't want her to get Ash's Lapras, especially when its story was done the moment it became the new leader, and there's no reason to have her capture an Ice type when she's already been shown that she can get over that fear when she needs to do so.

Originally Posted by fawfulmark2

That's what she believes. She thinks that catching non-Dragon types can help her become a Dragon-master:

BW 044 "Beware of Choroneko! Nyarth and Mijumaru!!" Review Thread

Originally Posted by martianmister

That's what she believes. She thinks that catching non-Dragon types can help her become a Dragon-master:

BW 044 "Beware of Choroneko! Nyarth and Mijumaru!!" Review Thread

That logic never made any sense to me. Catching and training non-Dragon types could make her into a better trainer, but it wouldn't really help her with her goal in the long run. Training her Dragon Pokemon, especially Axew, are suppose to help her become a Dragon master and she can't do that by training other Pokemon. Training Excadrill and Emolga certainly hasn't helped Axew to become stronger or made Dragonite listen to her at least. Besides that, I think that it ruins the concept behind raising Axew. She's suppose to work with it from a baby to make it evolve and yet, she spends more time working on other Pokemon that don't need nearly as much training and Axew basically becomes a cute hair accessory. Having Pokemon that are already strong, such as Excadrill and especially Dragonite, makes the journey to raise Axew into a Haxorus virtually meaningless. Instead of working hard on her weak Axew in order for it to grow into a strong Haxorus, she depends on using these powerful Pokemon to make it look like she's the strong trainer when she's just riding on their strength to avoid putting more effort with Axew.

Originally Posted by fawfulmark2

Iris trained Doryuuzu and Emonga? When? :P No seriously, she pretty much sat on her hands, busted them out so they could show up with their issues gone through divine intervention and slay the competition.

Originally Posted by Hidden Mew

Instead of working hard on her weak Axew in order for it to grow into a strong Haxorus, she depends on using these powerful Pokemon to make it look like she's the strong trainer when she's just riding on their strength to avoid putting more effort with Axew.

It goes beyond that. It's that everyone is progressing at a steady pace, getting stronger after overcoming their flaws/evolving their Pokémon all the while, Iris doesn't do jack and sits on her hands. Then, come around a convenient moment, like a tournament, and poof, suddenly, Iris is portrayed to be stronger than everyone else through some last minute powerups or having the established storylines with her Pokémon just thrown away. It's just not compelling to see her plow through a tournament where everybody else deserves even one win more than her.

Holy wow at that Hellion vs Human debate o.O

One's saying that she's basically a perfectly boring/ gloryflied lil snow-flake, the other is basically saying she's crap at pretty much everything and I completely disagree with BOTH of you.

For example, the idle that Iris was "in the wrong" in the Deino episode and that her wins were just used to make other Pokemon look more powerful ... I have no clue where that's coming from. Or the notion that she's already mastered the art of syncing with the hearts of Dragons despite the fact that she's shown that she's still learning how to do this or the thought that she has no struggles.

I think it's more of a blend of things. Yes, she's shown to be balls-to-the-wall awesome at some stuff (like battling/ doing her super dragon sense stuff and her general knowledge of Pokemon and Dragon types. She's a prodigy after all) but she's also shown to still need work on executing these skills and understanding the hearts of Pokemon (Like Excadrill. She had no clue how depressed and broken he was after loosing for the first time by her side after so many wins. She misjudged lil Diva, convincing the whole group that they were wrong for thinking she had eaten all the apples. And though I haven't seen a sub for the episode where she battles Dawn, I'm sure she didn't understand why Dragonite was being an A-hole until the Champ points it out).

I have my own theories as to when exactly we have seen her Dragon Heart Connecting Skill grow as well as some ways she will grow in the future but for now I'm just gonna leave it at this. (And people need to chill on Axew. The facts are pretty clear ... that thing aint evolving too soon because of animation resources and the writers unyielding resistance to addressing the problem of "how do you take a mascot outside-ball Pokemon suddenly stay INSIDE a Pokeball and have it make sense?". It's either gonna be handled the way it's being handled now OR it's gonna become the next Piplup, becoming so strong and battle capable that it beats huge and powerful Pokemon ... showing no real need to evolve)

Here, cause Iris.

Originally Posted by Chiplet

this whole Dragonite issue would've been completely ignored throughout the whole tournamet.

From a storyline point of view, it has been ignored, until now. Those wins didn't prompt any change on either character's part or establish any real storyline. Kairyu disobeys Iris out of nowhere for two episodes designed for nothing more than to say, looks more powerful than Arceus with absolutely no consequences because Iris being Iris. Then mysteriously, it goes back to obeying Iris, but then he gets bitchslapped and loses it. Iris is shown to be totally at a loss for what to do, Kairyu and her get their karmic reward for having done no training, no synching, no nothing whatsoever, and only then does it prompt a change. Only there do you have an actual storyline, an actual issue that needs solving, actual reflection from Iris upon her own abilities, about what she lacks to reach her goal. The loss establish a storyline. The wins served no purpose beyond the writers saying, "Look, Iris got herself a Pokémon that's pretty much more powerful than every other Pokémon on the main cast through no effort, while everyone else has to work hard to get half the results. Look, every other main character is in awe of Iris and her Dragon God Kairyu" and get Iris to the semifinals. The problem is, there's nothing fueling it. Iris has been sitting on her hands for the past 90 episodes, not doing much of anything that warrants her getting to the semifinals of a tournament like this, let alone winning one. Literally every single other character in that tournament had more reason to get to the semis than Iris, but of course, they're thrown under the bus... again...

On this issue "leading somewhere", considering Kairyu is using legendaries as chewtoys three episodes from now and the portrayal of Iris throughout the series except for this week's episode, I'm not holding my breath. I sincerely hope it does, because what we saw in last week's episode, what we didn't see in the previous 91 episodes, was Iris actually being at her most compelling, Iris actually being vulnerable, Iris actually being treated like a main character in a journey Animé. It's such a shame that this wasn't her portrayal from the get go, because this would have made BW infinitely better. You can still portray her as a strong trainer but give her flaws, issues, and have those actually cost her matches, strain her relationships, so that she can overcome it and when she gets to the semis or wins a tournament, it doesn't come at the expense of anybody else and it actually means something.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Kairyu disobeys Iris out of nowhere for two episodes designed for nothing more than to say, looks more powerful than Arceus with absolutely no consequences because Iris being Iris. Then mysteriously, it goes back to obeying Iris, but then he gets bitchslapped and loses it.

What? I'm sure Iris wasn't happy with the discovery that Dragonite wouldn't obey her. And what "consequences" should there have been? By having it get so far without failing we get a better grasp on what it's problem is and how Iris will have to go about fixing it.

Iris is shown to be totally at a loss for what to do, Kairyu and her get their karmic reward for having done no training, no synching, no nothing whatsoever, and only then does it prompt a change.

Her using Dragonite in this tourney IS her trying to train and connect/ sync with Dragonite :/

Iris has been sitting on her hands for the past 90 episodes, not doing much of anything that warrants her getting to the semifinals of a tournament like this, let alone winning one. Literally every single other character in that tournament had more reason to get to the semis than Iris, but of course, they're thrown under the bus... again...

No, I don't see the logic in this.
At the VERY LEAST it's clear to me that logically Excadrill could have gotten her just as far in the tourney seeing as it was able to tie with the Bear after years of doing nothing (now he's knocked off the rust and for some reason the Dragon Buster made it's whole move-set ... ranged projectile moves) and I don't think Mamoswine would have been able to get past it.

As for what happens in the last 2 episodes ... I really can't address this until I read some subs.

Originally Posted by Reivaxe

By having it get so far without failing we get a better grasp on what it's problem is and how Iris will have to go about fixing it.

Except the previous two battle don't actually portray Kairyu in the same light and give a different reason for his disobedience. There's nothing learned from those two battles.

Her using Dragonite in this tourney IS her trying to train and connect/ sync with Dragonite :/

And she failed, but did that actually cost her anything? No. Were there consequences? No. Not for the first two rounds at least. The impact of the loss is greatly diminished by the two wins she didn't deserve.