Thread: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

Originally Posted by CrackFox

The fact that she's female alone, qualifies her for successful help of the dynamics.

Wait, I thought you said that Hikari was responsible for poor dynamics yet, she's female. :P

There's constant comparison and bias. Most of the people who don't like her, didn't like her from day one. People accuse her of having no role, but they're comparing her status to past female's, and expecting too much. In my opinion, you either like a character or you don't, same with people. Her role is a lot like Misty's and the writers have chosen to take that same role with the female of the future. People who like Misty will nearly always admit to liking Iris and people who like Dawn will nearly always say they don't.

I actually see quite the opposite reading the posts in this and other threads regarding Iris. People who don't like Iris' character don't like her because of Iris, not because she's not Hikari. I don't see people complaining about Iris being more wild and outdoorsy rather than girl, or Iris not being on a token collecting quests, or Iris not doing contests, or Iris not getting 1 out of 3 episode devoted to her like Hikari did in DP. I think people fully accepted the concept of a wild outdoorsy girl with a snarky personality, traveling to get better at training dragons and training hard to evolve her baby Kibago, as well as overcome problems like disobedient Doryuuzu and Emonga, because that's what was the writers were selling at first. The problem that most people who don't like Iris, myself included, have with her is that she's not delivering on what was sold. The wild outdoorsy personality rarely translates in Iris taking a more active part in what's going on, her snark often falls flat because it's not picked up by other characters and makes her be more of a downer that's often complaining rather than enjoying the journey. She's not training dragons, she's neither learning nor growing because she apparently knows everything already knows everything about dragons, has magical powers and can do no wrong. Her problems with her Pokémon were either ignored or just plain badly handled. What I'm rating Iris against is not Hikari, but rather the character the writers sold at the beginning of the saga, cause that Iris could have been very interesting. This Iris is just a bore to watch.

Nobody knows what it would entail

It's actually stated in BW027 what it would entail. Dragon Masters were stated to be highly skilled trainers who are able to connect with the hearts of Dragons and unlock their true potential. Seeing as we've barely seen Iris lost, and when she did lose on her A-game, it was usually to established top trainers, as though those were the only ones who even had a shot at beating her and that she has displayed the skills to read Dragon's hearts, Iris was never shown to not fit the bill already. Since she states the reason she's on a journey is to learn and grow, but she never does either because the writers never allow her to struggle or fail, actually kills her "reason to be out there" as you put it.

there's so much hypocrisy in the Pokemon fandom.

And this is where I put my mod hat on. If you're going to debate in the Pokémon League, please remember to discuss other people's opinions or arguments, not the posters themselves. Suggesting that people who don't like Iris are hypocritical is an attack on the posters themselves and will not be tolerated. It's especially hollow since what you're doing is blaming people for treating different characters differently on account of them being different. If you disagree with someone challenge their perception, indicate why you disagree with them, use examples from the show that disproves their argument, etc.

Also, you're accusing people of comparing Iris to Hikari and Dent, yet you're one of the only people to bring them up in the entire thread. It's also worth noting that neither Hikari nor Dent are the topic of this thread and each have their own threads where you can discuss what you like and dislike about them. I share your sentiment that Iris should be judged solely on what she brings to the show, not what other characters have brought or bring to the show, but the best way to do that is to stop derailing the topic towards other characters and focus on Iris.

Thank you

I personally think both Iris and Cilan would be a lot more boring without each other on the show. They were designed to work together, (hence the writers bringing them in at the same time), similar to the way Misty/Brock originally were back in Kanto.

I didn't want a third female coordinator on the show, as I originally thought Hilda would replace Dawn before we knew about Iris. So Iris is a nice change of pace from endless female coordinators, which was honestly getting old halfway through DP.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I personally think both Iris and Cilan would be a lot more boring without each other on the show. They were designed to work together, (hence the writers bringing them in at the same time), similar to the way Misty/Brock originally were back in Kanto.

I don't think that's the case given how little they interact with each other. Even though I thought that they were going for a nature vs. science kind of dynamic between them early on in the series, that only happened a couple of times. I didn't think that Misty and Brock bounced off each others' personalities that much either back in Kanto. Besides that, Cilan has a fun personality that has made him stand out, while Iris's personality doesn't do that for me.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I didn't want a third female coordinator on the show, as I originally thought Hilda would replace Dawn before we knew about Iris. So Iris is a nice change of pace from endless female coordinators, which was honestly getting old halfway through DP.

I actually didn't mind the idea of a third Coordinator on the show and I still don't. While I wasn't a huge fan of DP Contests, they weren't terrible and Dawn was a more engaging character for me than Iris has even been, despite how Dawn was always generally okay with me. Just because Iris is a change of pace doesn't mean that she's necessarily better than another Coordinator. If I had the choice of seeing another female sidekick character like Iris in the next series or a third Coordinator, I'd gladly take the female Coordinator. At least she would have a chance for believable development and possible effort thrown into her story. The writers haven't really done that with Iris at all. They've handed her all of the solutions to her problems, there hasn't been able to develop either her or Axew, despite the latter being the only reason she's on this journey in the first place, and there's really no reason for me to root for her when she's so inactive, already has the knowledge of Dragon Pokemon and doesn't even work for the little "accomplishments" she has gotten. A third Coordinator would be worlds better than Iris in my opinion, which is kind of a shame since I was eager to see where the writers were going to take her at the beginning of the series. Now, she's a painfully static character and easily my least favorite Pokemon character ever.

Wait, I thought you said that Hikari was responsible for poor dynamics yet, she's female. :P

Yes and the dynamic would have suffered more if she hadn't of been there and it was an all male cast, but we're used to seeing full integration with the females so it was tainted a bit because of that.

I actually see quite the opposite reading the posts in this and other threads regarding Iris. People who don't like Iris' character don't like her because of Iris, not because she's not Hikari. I don't see people complaining about Iris being more wild and outdoorsy rather than girl, or Iris not being on a token collecting quests, or Iris not doing contests, or Iris not getting 1 out of 3 episode devoted to her like Hikari did in DP. I think people fully accepted the concept of a wild outdoorsy girl with a snarky personality, traveling to get better at training dragons and training hard to evolve her baby Kibago, as well as overcome problems like disobedient Doryuuzu and Emonga, because that's what was the writers were selling at first. The problem that most people who don't like Iris, myself included, have with her is that she's not delivering on what was sold. The wild outdoorsy personality rarely translates in Iris taking a more active part in what's going on, her snark often falls flat because it's not picked up by other characters and makes her be more of a downer that's often complaining rather than enjoying the journey. She's not training dragons, she's neither learning nor growing because she apparently knows everything already knows everything about dragons, has magical powers and can do no wrong. Her problems with her Pokémon were either ignored or just plain badly handled. What I'm rating Iris against is not Hikari, but rather the character the writers sold at the beginning of the saga, cause that Iris could have been very interesting. This Iris is just a bore to watch.

Because no one would admit to that. It's an unreasonable argument, to dislike someone because they aren't another person. I use past characters, not as personalities themselves, but to show what they represent. Take two characters like Misty and Dawn. Forget their individuality completely, I'm talking about the very different roles the writers gave them. They are two different formula's. Iris is living by the Kanto formula, and the reason I don't constantly moan about her presence and expect more from her, is because I know that the writers wanted that for her, and I find the show more enjoyable because of it. To bring it back to it's core 'Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?'...Yes, she's living up to their decided role (at least for the time being).

It's actually stated in BW027 what it would entail. Dragon Masters were stated to be highly skilled trainers who are able to connect with the hearts of Dragons and unlock their true potential. Seeing as we've barely seen Iris lost, and when she did lose on her A-game, it was usually to established top trainers, as though those were the only ones who even had a shot at beating her and that she has displayed the skills to read Dragon's hearts, Iris was never shown to not fit the bill already. Since she states the reason she's on a journey is to learn and grow, but she never does either because the writers never allow her to struggle or fail, actually kills her "reason to be out there" as you put it.

So, I'm right. 'Growth' could be interpreted very differently. Many would argue (no doubt the writers) that being on the journey and experiencing different people, places and Pokemon is all part of that. The reason she left on her journey, primarily, was to raise Axew. She's never been portrayed as a hapless trainer, so her wins don't bother me. We don't know what the writers will decided to do with her. She's based on a Gym leader after all. There's a mystique about her and her true potential and she will no doubt start battling more, once the show heats up in BW2. I can't argue with people when they say her personality annoys them. That's fair enough, but it seems pretty childish to dislike her because she doesn't do enough.

Originally Posted by CrackFox

Forget their individuality completely, I'm talking about the very different roles the writers gave them. They are two different formula's. Iris is living by the Kanto formula, and the reason I don't constantly moan about her presence and expect more from her, is because I know that the writers wanted that for her, and I find the show more enjoyable because of it.

I understood your argument, but that's still not what I see in the comments in this and other threads. People fully accept the idea that Iris is gonna be a sidekick that's mainly there for interactions and that she's only going to get 1 out of 15-20 episodes dedicated to her and her so-called goal. It's not about people preferring one formula over the other, it's about how well the writers are executing the "sidekick" formula with Iris.

The reason she left on her journey, primarily, was to raise Axew.

Which she's not doing.

She's never been portrayed as a hapless trainer

Actually, she was portrayed as a hapless trainer for the first 26 episodes of the series when none of her Pokémon were battle-ready, on account of two of them being disobedient and the other weak. She wasn't able to figure out how to teach her Kibago a simple attack. She didn't seem knowledgeable or really sure of what she was doing. Cut to episode 27 where Iris is all of a sudden a Dragon Master already, uberknowledgeable, already knows how to read the hearts of Dragons, without any effort. The Kibago problem solves itself on its own, without her learning or growing from it. Then, we learn that she's actually a child prodigy that could only be beaten by a Dragon Master, got 99 wins. Doryuuzu obeys her because he realized he was wrong and that Iris did nothing wrong, and Emonga's personality quirks just disappeared when it was convenient for them to. The Iris from the first 26 episodes was portrayed as someone who knew about types, but was always shown by Satoshi they didn't mean anything, yet when the two of them faced off, suddenly she wins with no strategy just by overpowering Satoshi. There's a disconnect between those two Irises.

The first one had the potential to be interesting, but the writers did nothing with her. The second one is just a waste of space in the Animé. Even if you say she's solely there to provide interactions, I find them actually very lackluster and humourless, meaning she's doubly failing as a sidekick for me.

We don't know what the writers will decided to do with her.

But we know what the writers have done with her, which is what is being discussed.

Also, as a note, if you disagree with an in-thread warning, please discuss it privately with the moderator who issued it or any moderator in the section you feel comfortable talking to.

Thank you

For what her purpose is supposed to be, yes they do. Iris character was designed to bring humor and good character interaction within group, with writers going back to original series formula for a reason. They are aware how much original trio chemistry was liked trying to replicate that with BW cast. Perhaps writers aren't doing enough with her dragon master goal and some things could have bee handled better but at the end of the day Iris fulfills role of supporting female sidekick just fine with writers not seeing any need to change her original purpose in show.

Lot of complaints about her are based solely on personal preference and claims how she had "no development"are completely fallacious and invalid,

Naturally shes not going to be everyone favorite cup of tea and transition from female co-star to supporting character was probably too much for some to handle. But as far as character goes she brings humor and quality interaction complimenting Ash and Cilan well. I like her snarky and outdoor attitude liking to rib on others. Her hyperactive and wild personality mixed with dose of childish behavior brings balance to main cast which would otherwise feel tasteless and bland, adding certain flavor to it.

And her ability to prepare medicine for pokemon applying her knowledge about herbs on several occasions was very helpful in healing sick pokemon like Cilan Pansage , being valuable member of group.

I will agree with others how writers didn't developed her goal of dragon master enough, but honestly her dream was never intended to involve competing in tournaments, go through intense and hard training, battles etc. It is more about finding common language with dragon types establishing closer bond between them, with main mission being to evolve Axew and have him grow in strong and happy dragon. Development may be coming of in slow and dragged out way, but it should be noted how Iris mentioned from day on how best way to train dragons is through lot of patience letting things to flow their own way, Something which was proved as successful approach leading to Axew learning two powerful dragon type moves.

Im sure that Axew will fully evolve in BW2 arc with Iris starting to battle more actively. Especially after being showed

However as person Iris definitely changed. Not drastically, but she did becoming more opened to Ash and Cilan to who she acted un trusty not having much confidence in humans in general. Started to tease and criticize them less frequently starting to feel as their friend, as well managing to took responsibility behind her actions when she apologized to Excadrill realizing how her approach was wrong clearly regretting because of it.

She receives much more focus than Brock could ever hope for, she received her own rival with Langley enriching storyline with her antagonistic and arrogant nature, we got lot of insight in Iris past and under whose influence she started out journey and im perfectly fine with what she got .

As for Iris winning don tournament and beating Ash while some may feel bitter over fact that she was portrayed as more successful in comparison wit others, it was completely justified. Iris was from early days portrayed as child prodigy not starting of as complete rookie like May or Dawn did, s it was to expect that she will have lot oi knowledge about dragon types and pokemon in general.

This only makes her unique standing out from rest of crew, because writers decided to add female for a change which wont fall on first obstacle already having some knowledge and skill serving as fuel to help her achieve such a demanding goal like dragon master is.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I personally think both Iris and Cilan would be a lot more boring without each other on the show. They were designed to work together, (hence the writers bringing them in at the same time), similar to the way Misty/Brock originally were back in Kanto.

I didn't want a third female coordinator on the show, as I originally thought Hilda would replace Dawn before we knew about Iris. So Iris is a nice change of pace from endless female coordinators, which was honestly getting old halfway through DP.

I have to agree.Something which DP cast lacked having incomplete dynamic together was because of too much emphasis being put only on certain characters while others being left out. Such problem writers decided to avoid with BW trio with Iris presence helping that no one feels left out gluing group together. Clash between Cilan scientific and Iris natural and spiritual point of view provides link between characters opening ground for healthy arguing and Iris annoyance at Cilan obsession in some areas is more is funny instead of annoying for me.

For same reason Misty and Brock worked so well too having easily best interaction out of all older male and girl protagonist combinations. They had endearing dynamic having many memorable moments together sharing past by both being gym leaders understanding themselves.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Iris character was designed to bring humor and good character interaction within group

I agree that that is her primary function, but the character just flat out fails to deliver. I'll take Kasumi as an example, when she would bitch at Satoshi or Takeshi, for one, she actually sounded funny and it elicited a reaction from Satoshi. He would blow up or pass a snarky remark of his own. Here, Iris's VA's delivery is often very flat and disconnected, and Iris' snarky lines are almost never picked up by the other characters. She often sounds like the journey and whatever they do for the episode is a bore and a pain to sit through, which makes her boring and a pain to watch. When she's not bringing down the mood, she's just there....

sidekick

I don't see how her being a sidekick prevents her from having a well done storyline. The difference between a sidekick and a co-star is the amount of episodes that focus solely on that character or where they play an important part. It just means that there will be less episodes for the sidekick and that she'll play a smaller part in the show, there's nothing wrong with that. Nobody is arguing against Iris not being a co-star, not being a coordinator or not getting 1 out every 3 episodes centered around her. What people are disappointed in is that the 1 out of 15 episodes that's centered around her just fails to deliver on the story part, which is especially surprising since all the elements were there for Iris to have a well constructed storyline. Kibago not being able to master Dragon Rage and Iris not understanding why, being frustrated by it... that could have been addressed, but it wasn't. Emonga disobeying her and not really caring about her, that could have been addressed, it wasn't. Iris' thinking that types are everything in battle and that no matter what strategy you use, you can't beat type advantage, that could have been adressed, it wasn't. Instead, after 27 episodes of being show that Iris is an inept and inexperienced trainer, she suddenly becomes Dragon Master extraordinaire Iris who doesn't have to work for anything, who never struggles, who's never wrong, who cannot be beaten by anyone other than Elite 4 members or tournament winners, who's uberknowledgeable and has magic powers. In the span of BW027, BW033 and BW042, they had pretty much taken away everything that could have possibly been interesting about Iris all the while painting Iris as a special snowflake who was right all along about everything. Even the Doryuuzu disobedience episode was just about Doryuuzu realizing that Iris had never stopped caring about him even though she was never portrayed as giving him a readon to do so, cause heaven forbid she would be portrayed as messing up or being flawed.

Being a sidekick doesn't exclude having interesting storylines that make a character progress in the few episodes that are dedicated to her.

claims how she had "no development"are completely fallacious and invalid

She had no character development, she suffered from total character derailment.

go through intense and hard training, battles etc.

Her dream is to become a Dragon Master, which again was stated to be highly skilled trainers who can understand the hearts of dragons and unlock their true power in battles. It implies training, battling, and that goes double for her stated goal of evolving Kibago. She's doing nothing for her goal.

Something which was proved as successful approach leading to Axew learning two powerful dragon type moves.

Except, one is not the result of the other. Iris sat on her hands, did nothing and watched as her Dragon Pokémon magically and undeservedly pulls out the most powerful dragon move out of its butt in the most convenient moment ever isn't even though she or him had done nothing to earn it. It's bad storytelling.

Iris was from early days portrayed as child prodigy

Care to provide an example in the first 26 episodes of Best Wishes where Iris was actually portrayed to be a child prodigy? Cause honestly, between her not battling, not succeeding at teaching Kibago anything, having two disobedient Pokémon and being constantly shocked by Satoshi's strategies proving her initial assessments wrong, I don't see it.

This only makes her unique standing out from rest of crew, because writers decided to add female for a change which wont fall on first obstacle already having some knowledge and skill serving as fuel to help her achieve such a demanding goal like dragon master is.

There's absolutely excluding having some knowledge and still failing, still struggling and still learning new things as opposed to being portrayed as already knowing everything and being always right. It just really makes it seem like she doesn't need to be on this journey because she's not changed by it at all.

I don't see anything remotely entertaining or compelling about this character.

Originally Posted by Hellion

I agree that that is her primary function, but the character just flat out fails to deliver. I'll take Kasumi as an example, when she would bitch at Satoshi or Takeshi, for one, she actually sounded funny and it elicited a reaction from Satoshi. He would blow up or pass a snarky remark of his own. Here, Iris's VA's delivery is often very flat and disconnected, and Iris' snarky lines are almost never picked up by the other characters. She often sounds like the journey and whatever they do for the episode is a bore and a pain to sit through, which makes her boring and a pain to watch. When she's not bringing down the mood, she's just there....

Im sure Iris is boring to you, but that is perfectly normal. Iris personality is not for everyone, being acquired taste. Each person has different criteria of what he considers funny and entertaining. To you Iris sarcasm and annoyance at Ash and Cilan is pain to watch, to me its interesting adding more tension and humor to cast. Her hyperactive and wild personality brings to you annoyance, while to me it brings something new.

We all have different opinions and tastes, being to expect how Iris wont be everyone favorite cup of tea. No matter how much development Iris gets, if person finds personality boring he will never be able to enjoy much in character.

This can't be helped, nor writers are doing anything wrong in here. Its just that you have different taste and criteria to what can be considered fun or not.

I don't see how her being a sidekick prevents her from having a well done storyline. The difference between a sidekick and a co-star is the amount of episodes that focus solely on that character or where they play an important part. It just means that there will be less episodes for the sidekick and that she'll play a smaller part in the show, there's nothing wrong with that. Nobody is arguing against Iris not being a co-star, not being a coordinator or not getting 1 out every 3 episodes centered around her. What people are disappointed in is that the 1 out of 15 episodes that's centered around her just fails to deliver on the story part, which is especially surprising since all the elements were there for Iris to have a well constructed storyline. Kibago not being able to master Dragon Rage and Iris not understanding why, being frustrated by it... that could have been addressed, but it wasn't. Emonga disobeying her and not really caring about her, that could have been addressed, it wasn't. Iris' thinking that types are everything in battle and that no matter what strategy you use, you can't beat type advantage, that could have been adressed, it wasn't. Instead, after 27 episodes of being show that Iris is an inept and inexperienced trainer, she suddenly becomes Dragon Master extraordinaire Iris who doesn't have to work for anything, who never struggles, who's never wrong, who cannot be beaten by anyone other than Elite 4 members or tournament winners, who's uberknowledgeable and has magic powers. In the span of BW027, BW033 and BW042, they had pretty much taken away everything that could have possibly been interesting about Iris all the while painting Iris as a special snowflake who was right all along about everything. Even the Doryuuzu disobedience episode was just about Doryuuzu realizing that Iris had never stopped caring about him even though she was never portrayed as giving him a readon to do so, cause heaven forbid she would be portrayed as messing up or being flawed.

Being a sidekick doesn't exclude having interesting storylines that make a character progress in the few episodes that are dedicated to her.

It seems to me that your under impression how character has to struggle to have good and believable development, but that's hardly only way to develop someone. Iris storyline has interesting premise behind it.Whole dragon master goal seems unique and different from stale and already predictable route through which contests went. We got interesting insight in Iris past learning how she got first pokemon, from where she originates, how she decided to pursue her goal and under what incentive.

With Iris it was never supposed that she fails as character having to learn what she did wrong, because she never had confidence issues or selfdoubts with such things only straying away from original purpose.

All those examples you mentioned about Iris being able to bond with Deino or Dragonite, helping Emma with Druddigon issues, winning Don tournament while not directly are helping Iris to grow as trainer. Because this gives her experience and helps her to acknowledge if she is using right approach toward dragons. Being like some sort of tests to determine what is right path to follow and what works or doesn't in her approach.

Iris may have remarkable knowledge about dragons being fairly good trainer, but in order to become dragon master reaching Drayden strength there is still a long way to go for her. She still has lot to learn in order to truly master dragon types and pull out their real strength. Her battling style isn't refined and witty enough lacking knowledge to achieve her goals yet. Her Axew(main mission)still didn't grew and evolved, to reflect that she made further growth as trainer and became better at understanding pokemon feelings,lacking strength and experience to be recognized as exceptionally strong dragon trainer.


With each passing battle or competition Iris and her pokemon are gaining more experience drawing lessons from wins and defeat and while i will agree how writers could have done that much better, story itself is entertaining for me being interested in what direction her path will go.

Upcoming episodes about Dragonite and Drayden and whole BW2 filler arc ahead of us giving plenty of time to do more significant growth with Iris and put more substance to her storytelling.
All of things which happened so far were just foreplay.

She had no character development, she suffered from total character derailment.

Didn't we saw her becoming more open to Ash and Cilan gaining more trust in humans thanks to their help? At start Iris was showed to be shy avoiding humans generally not having much faith hiding lot of things about herself, but with time she started to grow closer to her friends deciding to reveal past and what are her real goals. She shared with them her problems(like Excadrill issue), explained what tasks she was given to accomplish and from where she comes giving insight in personal life.

This also helped her to change abit as person stopping to criticize Ash so much, becoming much friendlier and relaxed in company of humans, compared to start.
We saw her acknowledging flaws she did with Excadrill deciding to take responsibility behind her actions becoming more critic of herself. Which didn't happened before that tending to call out others on their flaws, while overlooking her own .

Could writers execute this in better manner? Yes they could leaving more to be desired, but it doesn't change fact that Iris went through some character development.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that writers are developing Iris slowly on purpose preparing ground for some crisis through which character will went in future? Langley picks on Iris not using dragons enough, Axew still being at baby stage and lack of some bigger progress forward with her goal could also be set up to Drayden and elder from village ending disappointed calling out on Iris flaws and incompetence as trainer shaking character to its core, and understanding how she didn't tried enough hard.

Or it could be that writers are just content with way Iris is developed currently wanting that she comes of as experienced and competent character which can take care of things on her own, while continuing to slowly learn new things making steps forward in career of becoming dragon master without having to go through some particular struggles and failures. In other words trying to develop character vastly different than it used to be their practice in past.

Her dream is to become a Dragon Master, which again was stated to be highly skilled trainers who can understand the hearts of dragons and unlock their true power in battles. It implies training, battling, and that goes double for her stated goal of evolving Kibago. She's doing nothing for her goal.

Which Iris does. Her methodology is to use patience and relaxing approach in training dragon types letting things flow their own way. That is her way of raising Axew which will pay of in end being stated from day one what is best and most effective way to train dragon types. Something we saw Iris doing making sure to keep Axew happy not pushing him too hard, and giving him encouragement to believe in himself.

Except, one is not the result of the other. Iris sat on her hands, did nothing and watched as her Dragon Pokémon magically and undeservedly pulls out the most powerful dragon move out of its butt in the most convenient moment ever isn't even though she or him had done nothing to earn it. It's bad storytelling.

We saw Ash, and his friends pokemon learn new attacks out of nowhere all the time. What happened with Axew and outrage is nothing new which haven't been showed dozen of times already. Which isn't so much strange because pokemon are perfectly capable of learning new attacks on their own if they are put in dangerous and stressful situation, with their instinct for survival coming into play than. Axew panicked, went for all or nothing and risk payed off.

When it comes to dragon rage however that simply isn't true. Iris played role in here training with Axew to master dragon rage by repeating it over and over again, working under method of trials and errors. It was confirmed how best way to raise dragons is through patience , something which Iris was doing consecutively with Axew since day one.

She helped Excadrill too, because thanks to opening herself and apologizing for her behavior bond with pokemon was reestablished solving problem with disobedience.

Care to provide an example in the first 26 episodes of Best Wishes where Iris was actually portrayed to be a child prodigy? Cause honestly, between her not battling, not succeeding at teaching Kibago anything, having two disobedient Pokémon and being constantly shocked by Satoshi's strategies proving her initial assessments wrong, I don't see it.

In first 26 episodes we didn't know what is Iris goal, from where she comes, what was her first pokemon etc either. By early episodes im referring to first 50 episodes of Unova, not sole start. Writers didn't wanted to reveal all cards on table with Iris immediately.

However even before that Iris was showed to be very knowledgeable about pokemon types and strategies in general, she was showed to be able to prepare medicines, knew how to solve issues with dragons like Emma Druddigon etc. And when we got insight in past with Excadrill episode served as confirmation that Iris isn't average beginner.

Having initial problems with Axew doesn't change anything. Axew is baby, every trainer would have hard time with it until it matures and gains more confidence.
As for "shocking Ash strategies#, that was more disbelief from Iris side having hard time to believe how such unorthodox and illogical approach Ash tends to apply to battles actually works. Strategy which constantly shocks gym leaders, frontier brains and strong trainers out there not being prepared for such surprises.

There's absolutely excluding having some knowledge and still failing, still struggling and still learning new things as opposed to being portrayed as already knowing everything and being always right. It just really makes it seem like she doesn't need to be on this journey because she's not changed by it at all.

I don't see anything remotely entertaining or compelling about this character.

To have character grow, you don't need to have him go through drastic personality change. In fact he doesn't even need to change as person at all still growing forward(Goku from DBZ comes to mind). Sole fact of Iris gaining more experience improving her skills as trainer, and coming closer toward her own goal is character development as well, changing someone philosophy behind training and initial thoughts. Something which writers are aware of applying same thing with Cilan which wont change much as person, but will go through growth as trainer becoming more sharped in skills coming out as better connoisseur in end.
Only difference is Iris change will came of as more notable in end.

There is really nothing to debate over here. Way i see it lot of Iris apparent "flaws" are just reflection of personal preference with Iris not living up to someone expectations, nor delivering same entertainment like she does for others and while we could continue on writing essays about why we disagree, at end of the day we will still be on beginning not achieving agreement on this.

Reason why its pointless to continue.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Has it ever occurred to anyone that writers are developing Iris slowly on purpose preparing ground for some crisis through which character will went in future? Langley picks on Iris not using dragons enough, Axew still being at baby stage and lack of some bigger progress forward with her goal could also be set up to Drayden and elder from village ending disappointed calling out on Iris flaws and incompetence as trainer shaking character to its core, and understanding how she didn't tried enough hard.

This is what I hope will happen, really, but at this point I'm more expecting Iris to just use Excadrill against Drayden and beating his Haxorus, and them worshipping her skills.

Oh, and I've suggested this earlier at several points, too.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Which Iris does. Her methodology is to use patience and relaxing approach in training dragon types letting things flow their own way. That is her way of raising Axew which will pay of in end being stated from day one what is best and most effective way to train dragon types. Something we saw Iris doing making sure to keep Axew happy not pushing him too hard, and giving him encouragement to believe in himself.

Except, you know, not actually training him anymore, and him just randomly getting stronger without reason.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

We saw Ash, and his friends pokemon learn new attacks out of nowhere all the time. What happened with Axew and outrage is nothing new which haven't been showed dozen of times already. Which isn't so much strange because pokemon are perfectly capable of learning new attacks on their own if they are put in dangerous and stressful situation, with their instinct for survival coming into play than. Axew panicked, went for all or nothing and risk payed off.

When it comes to dragon rage however that simply isn't true. Iris played role in here training with Axew to master dragon rage by repeating it over and over again, working under method of trials and errors. It was confirmed how best way to raise dragons is through patience , something which Iris was doing consecutively with Axew since day one.

Outrage, pal, not Dragon Rage.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

In first 26 episodes we didn't know what is Iris goal, from where she comes, what was her first pokemon etc either. By early episodes im referring to first 50 episodes of Unova, not sole start. Writers didn't wanted to reveal all cards on table with Iris immediately.

She was still shown to a be a pretty abrasive but incompetent trainer during this time, which is wildly inconsistent with the super-powerful Iris of Ep 27+.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

However even before that Iris was showed to be very knowledgeable about pokemon types and strategies in general, she was showed to be able to prepare medicines, knew how to solve issues with dragons like Emma Druddigon etc. And when we got insight in past with Excadrill episode served as confirmation that Iris isn't average beginner.

Um, Iris showed no knowledge of strategy. Of types, yes, but almost everyone knows about them. You are making stuff up.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Having initial problems with Axew doesn't change anything. Axew is baby, every trainer would have hard time with it until it matures and gains more confidence.

A character that can't train a baby pokemon, a newly caught one, or even a veteran correctly shouldn't be passed of as skilled. Because let's face it - she's a trainer. Her primary role is to train pokemon, and she failed majorly at it.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

To have character grow, you don't need to have him go through drastic personality change. In fact he doesn't even need to change as person at all still growing forward(Goku from DBZ comes to mind). Sole fact of Iris gaining more experience improving her skills as trainer, and coming closer toward her own goal is character development as well, changing someone philosophy behind training and initial thoughts. Something which writers are aware of applying same thing with Cilan which wont change much as person, but will go through growth as trainer becoming more sharped in skills coming out as better connoisseur in end.

Not remotely comparable. Goku had several moments of character growth(and clear flaws that he gets called out on- prime example being the one with Gohan in the Cell games) and his improvement(as a fighter) was actually shown. Yes, he was always a happy-go-lucky guy at heart, but he did develop, unlike Iris.

I don't even like Goku, but he sure was a lot better written than Iris.

I think Misty was better handled then Iris, and that was over 15 years ago.

Being a sidekick doesn't excuse you from not being entertaining or somewhat developed.

What's with all these unrealistic expectations for a character? Surely you must all be mature enough to accept the fact that a character cannot appeal and be considered to be well-written by everyone? For example, I couldn't find anything compelling or entertaining about both Paul(yuck :P) and Dawn(booooo XD), which were what killed DP to me, but I knew I was mature enough to accept and respect others positive opinions of them in any debates I could have been when discussing them on the Internet and try to not treat it as fact. We could go on all of this saga repeatedly telling each other our thoughts on Iris on how she is handled like in the last 31 pages and we'd still not change our minds on her due to our tastes. There's also nothing new to debate. What has been said has been said.

I find her to be entertaining, compelling, relate-able and interesting character. I know I'll be sad when she inevitably leaves the show.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

sarcasm and annoyance

I actually like sarcastic characters who are occasionally annoyed at people... when it's picked up, when there's a legit back and forth, because that's when it's entertaining. In short, when it's well done. Here, it's not.

hyperactive

Iris isn't hyperactive. That's more Jun or Bel.

It seems to me that your under impression how character has to struggle to have good and believable development, but that's hardly only way to develop someone.

Not always, no. But in some cases, yes. Iris is one of those cases because for 6 months, 26 episodes, that's what the writers sold. Iris was an inexperienced battler, who didn't know about strategy, who failed to get her Pokémon to learn a simple attack, who failed to get two of her Pokémon to listen to her, basically Iris was portrayed as a trainer who had a lot to overcome, who would struggle, work hard and overcome the things that were holding her back allowing her to get closer to her goal as a Dragon Master. Then, poof, magically in episode 27, Iris suddenly is a Dragon Master already who already knows everything and then we learn she's a child prodigy with magical powers and who's nearly unbeatable, with her problems just disappearing so she can get undeserved achievements.

Development is change. In order to be good development, something has to prompt the change in the character. Here, there's nothing. It's total character derailment and since Iris is treated like some child prodigy paragon of a trainer she has no reason to change. And without change, there is no development.

Whole dragon master goal seems unique and different

I would have to see Iris do something about it to judge how unique and different it is.

All those examples you mentioned about Iris being able to bond with Deino or Dragonite, helping Emma with Druddigon issues, winning Don tournament while not directly are helping Iris to grow as trainer.

Growth is change. Iris walks into these episode already having all the answers and all the knowledge required to deal with the situation and therefore does not change. How is this preparing her to figure out if she's using the right approach to raising Dragons if she's doing nothing to raise Kibago and then gets away with it pulling a win in the Don Battle.

Didn't we saw her becoming more open to Ash and Cilan gaining more trust in humans thanks to their help? At start Iris was showed to be shy avoiding humans generally not having much faith hiding lot of things about herself, but with time she started to grow closer to her friends deciding to reveal past and what are her real goals. She shared with them her problems(like Excadrill issue), explained what tasks she was given to accomplish and from where she comes giving insight in personal life.

Not really, we saw her want to travel with Satoshi from the get go and her general attitude towards Dent has seldom changed.

We saw her acknowledging flaws she did with Excadrill deciding to take responsibility behind her actions becoming more critic of herself.

Except the only flaw she acknowledged in that episode is that she hadn't taught Doryuuzu a long range attack to give her more variety... except... how was she supposed to know that when she had 99 straight wins? She wasn't portrayed in that episode as angry or ungrateful or mean towards Doryuuzu making it seem very silly of him to hold a grudge against her because heaven forbid that Iris should ever have done something to actually deserve Doryuuzu's estrangement.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that writers are developing Iris slowly on purpose preparing ground for some crisis through which character will went in future? Langley picks on Iris not using dragons enough, Axew still being at baby stage and lack of some bigger progress forward with her goal could also be set up to Drayden and elder from village ending disappointed calling out on Iris flaws and incompetence as trainer shaking character to its core, and understanding how she didn't tried enough hard.

That's all fine and dandy if they were actually developing her in the meanwhile, but they're not... and haven't... for two years. They had a chance to make Iris realize that she was going about training Kibago the wrong way in the Don Battle, what did they do? Oh yeah, made it learn Outrage... If they pull off a salvage mission on Iris' character in the future and actually give her a good story, make her entertaining and compelling, then my hats off to the writers for doing what they should have been doing from day 1, but it won't change the fact that for two years, the characterization of Iris was just awful.

Her methodology is to use patience and relaxing approach in training dragon types letting things flow their own way.

Also known as doing nothing towards her goal.

That is her way of raising Axew which will pay of in end being stated from day one what is best and most effective way to train dragon types.

You're contradicting yourself here, if she was right from the start and will be proven right, then she hasn't changed, hasn't grown, hasn't gained anything from the journey which just makes her presence on the journey pointless. I'm still trying to figure out why she's here. She brings nothing to the journey, gains nothing from it, actually prohibit some characters from developing and fails to entertain. She's an utter failure as a TV character.

Originally Posted by Human

What's with all these unrealistic expectations for a character?

To be entertaining, both in personality and story, is now considered unrealistic?

respect others positive opinions

Expressing disagreement over an issue is not disrespecting other users. The Pokémon League is a debate subforum, this is a debate thread with a debate prefix, and that's what this thread is: a debate. I respect everyone's right to like Iris, but I disagree with the interpretation they use as justification for it.

Well, you can't expect to like every character in a show because of your tastes.

And honestly, a debate on tastes? What sort of debate is that? I like my milkshake and you like your vegetable(no reference intended). That's the vibe I'm getting from reading this. I'm not saying that you're somehow manipulating me into thinking that Iris isn't a good character. That's not the case. It's just that I've been frequently checking this 'debate' and I've been reading the same points over and over by the same people from both sides. The 'debates' aren't going anywhere with 'justifications' because they're purely tastes in character. There are people content with her character and potrayal and there are those who aren't. It's okay to talk about why and actually debate about our interests, but not to the point of repeating them. There has been nothing new from both sides. Again, all the points have been said. Different people see different things in something.

I do agree that the arguments have become a bit redundant, and I realize this thread is open to other people...however nothing really new has been said. I'm not an Iris fan either...but as of now I feel we need to wait Iris next episode before we can have anything new to debate about rather than repeat largely same points over, and over again ad nauseum.

I know if I have nothing to contribute, it's probably better than I don't post at all. But I just wanted to get this out there as a suggestion. Feel free to just ignore me though.

Edit: whoops meant Ad Nauseum.

Originally Posted by Human

And honestly, a debate on tastes?

No, this thread is about hosting a debate on a character, on the differing opinions and interpretations of that character. It's about providing a space to users to say what they like and dislike about how said character is being portrayed. The milkshake v vegetable parable doesn't reflect what's actually in the thread, where I don't see anyone not liking Iris because she's not Hikari or Haruka, but rather fully accept the core characteristics that make up the character of Iris and debating whether or not they were well executed and used to their full potential.

That's not the case. It's just that I've been frequently checking this 'debate' and I've been reading the same points over and over by the same people from both sides. The 'debates' aren't going anywhere with 'justifications' because they're purely tastes in character. There are people content with her character and potrayal and there are those who aren't. It's okay to talk about why and actually debate about our interests, but not to the point of repeating them. There has been nothing new from both sides. Again, all the points have been said. Different people see different things in something.

I'll quote Masurao to explain this one.

I know if I have nothing to contribute, it's probably better than I don't post at all.

Bingo. This is a debate thread, the purpose of the thread is debating. If you don't like what you read, don't read it. If you don't want to post in it, don't post in it. If you feel it's redundant, then don't visit it. If you feel the need to wait for a new Iris episode to make a judgement, then wait for that future episode. Don't stop people who feel differently from posting in it. There's a reason we created a whole subforum for debate threads, and that's to really make it clear that entering one of these is a poster's own personal choice. Also, and that goes for both of you, posting solely to say that you don't want to post or that the thread is pointless is actually breaking the Pointless Post rule, so please be careful about that in the future.

Originally Posted by Masurao

ad hominem.

I think you meant ad nauseam...