Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? She has decent screen-time, but it's not used well. Her back-story was bearable, but the execution of the tournament and why they wanted a sidekick to shine above everyone else is really mind-numbing. Especially when said character hasn't really been seen to train as hard as Ash, aside from a single Pokemon.
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? Not true, though. She trained many episodes with Kibago until he was able to unleash the energy from its body.Originally Posted by Zidane
Doryuuzu issue was solved with development from both sides - the trainer and the Pokémon BUT I admit that having Emonga suddenly obey Iris after she nicely asked her in the tournament counts as something very cheap. Nevertheless, I don't mind Iris' sudden spotlight in the tournament. Feel free to disagree with me, but I think she deserved to get some spotlight even if only with some help from the writers. And which character doesn't win with the help of the writers?
I mean, Rock Slide coming out of nowhere? What the hell?
I also believe that if we ignore the writers part we could just say that a lot of luck was involved - for every trainer. That, and that her win against Ash in the Don Battle tournament will possibly reflect the eight gym battle when Ash finally defeats her. That whole was just a setup for the eventual rematch, imo.
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Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? That makes her seem like a rival though, that Ash has to "surpass" her, which she's not being written as..given that they both have their own rivals to deal with. They've only battled once. I honestly don't really see any point in her written to have an edge over Ash. Other than the fact the writers think that dragging out their dynamics as such is good writing.
Last edited by Masurao; 3rd October 2011 at 11:38 AM.
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? Iris' status as a possible gym leader might come in play. Since Iris won the first time, Ash is bound to win the second time.
They're not exactly rivals. It was more of a friendly battle in the finals. :D
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Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? I don't think that Iris possibly being the eighth Gym Leader is a valid reason as to why the writers are suddenly making her a stronger trainer that how she was depicted in the beginning of the series. It just makes the writing behind her character look even more inconsistent and bad. Instead of seeing her grow into a strong trainer, it just happens because the plot says so and being a possible Gym Leader. Personally, though, I don't think that Ash will battle her as a Gym Leader. She'll probably be an apprentice and Ash will have to defeat her in order to get to the real Gym Leader. That's my theory anyway.
While I agree that the amount of screentime Iris gets is fine, her development has left much to be desired. The problems with Axew and Excadrill quickly being solved without much effort on Iris' part felt extremely cheap and I don't like how the writers are trying to make it look like she's such a strong trainer when nothing about her behavior earlier in the series hinted that she was more than a rookie trainer. It just makes me think that the writers don't really know what they're doing with her character and that without giving a character a battle active goal like Gyms and Contests, they don't know how to develop how a trainer grows in strength or their Pokemon.
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? That's kinda what I imagined as well.
- Why do you think Kibago development wasn't handled fine?
- Doryuuzu issue couldn't have been dragged out for a few more episodes. It wasn't the usual cliché case of Charizard or Mamoswine disobeying, it was something that could have been resolved in only one episode. Honestly, dragging it out unnecessarily would have just made it bad.
True though, it does seem like writers don't know what do with the characters without active goals. But quite frankly, in comparison to Misty and Brock - I think Iris and Dento are being handled just fine. Great chemistry, regular involvements in the episodes and decent amount of screentime. I think that the only problem with Iris is how they handled Emonga's disobedience and the problem with Dento is - he literally got no development making us fans still waiting for it to happen.
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Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? I'm sure this is more of a perspective-based thing, but Iris' chemistry with the cast is extremely weak in my opinion. As I've said before, I think her science vs superstition clashes with Cilan are overhyped because they usually only happen in filler episodes and only serve to be temporary entertainment. It doesn't happen enough to tell me that she and Cilan have this awesome bond or anything. With Ash, it's a similar deal. I already don't like her snarking at Ash because the justifications behind those actions are very weak or nonexistant, and most of the time Ash does not dignify Iris' teasing with a response (at most it's just some generic remark that follows with the interaction being dropped completely). I really don't like other characters taking an interest in Iris just because she comes from the Village of Dragons, either. Just seems like a cheap mechanism to get Iris involved in a plot rather than actually trying to have her relate to the issue at hand.
With Axew, for what we've seen of it struggling to master Dragon Rage, there was really no input from Iris at all when it finally mastered the move; she wasn't even present when it happened. Doesn't matter if she was trying to rescue him at the time; Axew had no idea where she was, and we didn't see Axew being motivated by what Iris had been teaching it, but rather it was motivated by wanting to prove itself useful by seeing Druddigon's attempts to break free that enabled it to use Dragon Rage. So that subplot ended on an off-note because Iris ended up being a non-factor in Axew mastering the move.
And there was absolutely no excuse for Axew to learn Outrage. If it was something like Dual Chop I would've accepted that, but the anime's increasingly been more faithful to the games over the years and generally the main cast Pokemon learn moves that are relative to its level of experience. Because you know it would just be cheap for a relatively weak (or low-leveled) Pokemon to be learning a move the species normally doesn't learn in the games until it's high-leveled. Outrage is the most powerful physical Dragon-type move in canon, so why the bloody hell is a baby Axew learning it out of the blue? Because it was the only way to "justify" Iris winning that match in the Don Battle. Except I still think it was a cheap move. That's like having Dawn's Piplup learning Hydro Pump in its second Contest battle rather than towards the end of the series, where it could be inferred that it was at a level of strength that it could be realistically learned.
Generally, when it comes to Iris, the rudimentary rules of character development both for herself and her Pokemon are thrown out the window in favor of keeping Iris as static as possible. There's no way the Excadrill subplot could have been "dragged out" when it only spanned across 25 episodes, and within that gap, the subplot itself was mentioned in passing only a couple of times with Iris not being shown to be visibly affected by it at all. Hence, the resolution was extremely cheap because the subplot didn't last very long and wasn't brought up enough to let casual viewers give a damn about this problem. The resolution just threw tons of backstory at us all at once - much of it which contradicted how Iris was presented to us for the previous 35 episodes with no explanation - and it made Iris herself even harder to relate to. The episode tried to make it out like Iris was at fault, but if you really thought about it, it wasn't. It was Excadrill being too proud and tsundere to handle a loss and wouldn't let it go even though Iris did everything in her power to bring Excadrill's spirits back up.
This probably would've been much better handled if hints of this backstory were sprinkled intermittently between the 25 episode gap rather than throwing everything at once at the viewers in one episode and solving the problem then and there with a new move to boot. I still think the idea of Iris having a consecutive 100-win streak back when she was too young to be a trainer to begin with and got so experienced and awesome with battling merely by dicking around in the woods and beating up wild Pokemon with her bare hands and becoming one with nature and all that crap is simply that... crap.
But I'm certain the reason she wins when she doesn't deserve to win and finds ways to evade losing in most episodes is because it's firmly established in the show (and applies to real life) that you learn a lot more when you lose than when you when. That often sparks a change, and the writers are dead-set on having Iris avoid real change and character development for as long as they can help it.
When it comes down to it, Iris had no business winning the whole Don Battle tourney. She could've lost to Ash and still accomplished her major important achievements (Axew learning Outrage and getting it right on the first go, Emolga suddenly fully on board with battling with Iris as if her previous characterization never happened). Ash is the one who needs the wins because his track record in BW is abysmal. But I guess keeping Iris' character static is more important to the writers than maintaining consistency with Ash's character. Somehow.
Once again, Iris' amount of screentime is not the issue. How it's being used is the real problem, and by now it definitely looks like I'm not alone in feeling that way. Doubt that's a coincidence.
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? Totally, personal preference.
Iris motivated Kibago from the very beginning. Only by her encouragement from the very beginning was Kibago able to try and use Dragon Rage again. Iris pursued him to keep using the move (which led to Kibago trying to use Dragon Rage once again when it was captured with Crimgan as Iris taught him) and that continuous training led to the glorious moment of him finally managing to release the energy properly from his body. And Iris was present when Kibago mastered the move, I dunno what you're talking about.
So you are basically assuming just because Kibago managed to use Outrage properly once that we won't see him having issues with it?
Because Iris thought that the problem was in him, not her. Did you even watch the episode?
Personal preference. Majority cared, you not caring =/= everyone not caring.
It was their fault.
Seriously, how come people don't see what's right in front of their nose? Iris assumed from the very beginning that the problem was in Doryuuzu's pride so she didn't bother much about it. It wasn't until when Dento told her what actually was the reason that it hurt her. She realized her flaw, apologized, admitted she was wrong and decided that she was going to pay more attention to her Pokémon's feelings. Doryuuzu on the other hand, after Iris finally apologized to him (another indicator of her inability to understand the feelings of her Pokémon) realized that she actually meant what she said. She expressed her true emotions which led to the two bonding again.
Once again, personal preference as you said.
Dento.
What Ash needs to do is to take one day off and train his Pokémon and not some wild ones.
Right now, you're the only one expressing an issue with it.
Last edited by Tsutarja; 3rd October 2011 at 02:22 PM.
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Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? It's basically because of how it learned Dragon Rage. Iris really didn't put much effort in training it to learn that attack. I know that there were those practice matches with Scraggy, but it felt like it was done for more comedy relief than to actually help both Pokemon develop and get stronger. When Axew used Dragon Rage for the first time, it felt more like it was because the plot said so, not because of any training Iris did with it. That's basically my problem with Axew's development. Its strength isn't the result of any training, but just because the writers apparently want to make Iris a stronger trainer without having her do much of anything to make that strength more believable to the audience.
I respectively disagree. Given how Excadrill was angry at Iris, or at least didn't trust her, and this problem had been going on for a few years, unlike with both Charizard and Mamoswine, it really shouldn't have been resolved in only one episode. Even without going into how the writers are trying to force the idea of Iris being a child prodigy with the whole 99 wins in a row bit and all she did was encourage Excadrill during their battle, one apology and one night training with Excadrill really shouldn't have instantly fixed everything. Maybe if Iris had put actual effort in training Excadrill or at the very least tried to include it more with the other Pokemon in an attempt to restore their relationship, then I might have felt a bit better as to how that was resolved since the effort could have been a way to build up that resolution. But considering I can count how many times Excadrill appeared before that episode aired on one hand, it doesn't really work for me.
I agree that compared to Misty and Brock, Iris and Clian have a better amount of screentime and they're usually involved in the episodes, although Iris really didn't do that for the beginning of the series, and there is a nice group chemistry with all of three of them. I'm rather disappointed in how they've handled all of Iris' Pokemon to be quite honest and while I do see Cilan as a fun character to watch, I agree that he really does need some development.
I don't think that's the case. I feel pretty much the same regarding Iris. Even though I liked her at the beginning of BW and I think that the group chemistry does work fairly well most of the time, I did get tired of Iris being so inactive compared to Ash and even Cilan and once Axew learned to control Dragon Rage, I just found myself more annoyed at her "development" than anything else about her. Even though I can understand why you like Iris, I don't think that it's nice to say that Shinneth is the only one expressing an issue with it.
What honestly bothers me the most about Iris is how she has been developed. When she first appeared, one of the reasons I liked her was because she had so many personal flaws and because of that, along with her desire to evolve Axew into a Haxorus, I thought that her development would be more on a personal level and as the series continues, she would grow as a both a trainer and as a person. However, given what happened with Axew and Excadrill, the writers seem more interested in just handing her development to her instead of doing it in a believable manner. It just feels rather disappointing to me when I thought that Iris's development had so much potential and could have been so much better than what has been shown in the series at this point.
Last edited by Hidden Mew; 3rd October 2011 at 02:13 PM.
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? Nothing else could have been done, I'm afraid. In regards to mastering Dragon Rage, it's quite similar to Ash's Gible mastering Draco Meteor. There was nothing anyone can really do. You just keep using the move until you get the hang of it. :S
Well that is true, Doryuuzu should have appeared more often. But honestly, I found myself caring for her character either way.
I only dislike how Emonga was handled, that's the only sting in my eye.
While Kibago did have some training and while Doryuuzu did have that one episode - Emonga got nothing. :|
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Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? The main difference I see between Axew learning Dragon Rage to Ash's Gible mastering Draco Meteor is basically the amount of effort used for both attacks. Ash practiced with Gible for quite a few episodes and he actually tried to help Gible relax and feel confident about using Draco Meteor, which allowed it to use the attack even before it was captured. With Axew, Iris would just call out the attack one in a while when she was in some practice battle, expecting it to work, and then basically go "Oh well" when it literally blew up in her face. She didn't even try to help Axew learn the attack without being in battle, like Ash had done with Gible, despite how her backstory showed that she was more than capable of training her Pokemon without putting them in battle. If Iris had Axew practice Dragon Rage outside of battle, as well as trying to figure out other ways to help Axew control that power, such as helping Axew to feel more relaxed and confident before releasing that attack, then Axew learning Dragon Rage would have been more satisfying and less cheap to me.
I think that the backstory being inconsistent with how Iris was at the beginning makes it hard to care for her character, not to mention how Cilan was able to point out why Excadrill was really upset, despite how Iris has spent years off-screen trying to cheer up Excadrill. Plus, I also don't really like the idea that playing with wild Pokemon could make Iris that strong of a trainer. Though, I've never liked that explanation for young characters being terrific trainers in any other story either.
Even though I think what little training Axew and Excadrill had wasn't satisfying enough to resolve their problems, I agree that Emonga was handled poorly as well.
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? How exactly did Ash help Gible with Dragon Rage? :O
Battle - no battle; she trained with Kibago. It took them thirty episodes but they did it and it was satisfying imo.
Why do you think Dento pointed out? Someone had to since Iris clearly had no idea what the true reason behind Doryuuzu's behavior was. She spent years? We only saw a couple of flashbacks so we can't really determine whether it happened over a few years. What counts for me is the episodes where Iris didn't try to cheer up Doryuuzu, why did she stop trying?
I think that hanging out with wild Pokémon only made her more agile not stronger in matters of battling. Her continuous training with Moguryuu however payed off in terms of his strenght.
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Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? Honestly, I think Iris could have still beeen presented as a strong trainer without having won the tournament. We have already gotten the idea that Ash has to improve ramed down our throats. A victory there would have established that's he's on his way. At the same time, we would have seen that Iris needs to improve. Instead, once again, Ash came out the person needing to better himself.
There's also the fact that Iris hasn't been shown to lose when in control of her Pokemon, like Cilan and Ash have. Which is jarring in and of itself.
Last edited by Masurao; 3rd October 2011 at 02:38 PM.
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? I thought that Ash was actually coaching Gible with Draco Meteor. I recall that he tried to help Gible focus its energy when using that attack and gave tried to reassure it when the move failed. Iris didn't do anything like that. Since they had thirty episodes to do it, I think that they could have done it in a more satisfying manner.
The fact that she had been with Excadrill for years, as she was much younger during that flashback, and still couldn't tell why it was upset feels pretty lame to me. It also kind of downplays Iris' apology because someone had to tell her the problem instead of letting her reflect on that battle, try to restore her bond with Excadrill and come to that conclusion on her own. I imagine that she had been trying to help Excadrill for years since she looked about seven or eight to me in that flashback and I doubt that she ignored Excadrill's issue until she left on her journey with Axew
Re: Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris? That's why I feel that Iris would have served better to have been the 8th gym leader, and only that with another traveling companion filling her role. I don't think just because she's 10..she should have been on the main cast. Ultimately she doesn't feel like she belongs on the main cast. The writers apparently don't want her to lose, so they say "Hey, Ash can be the fall-guy." They only seem have wanted to have Ash defeated by Iris, because apparently changing their dynamics early would be detrimental to w/e relationship they're trying to establish between the two, and her character as a whole.
Last edited by Masurao; 3rd October 2011 at 07:10 PM.
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