Thread: Do you think the show has improved since Kanto?

Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty

Best Wishes Season 2 was terrible, but the N arc looks decent so far and might redeem this series.

As for Best Wishes as a whole, its a shame that a saga that started off strong seeming like it would refresh the series wound up falling into the same old pitfalls as it progressed. DP went on too damn long, 4 years was too long to stay in a single region...that BW seemed so refreshing at the time, but now this saga has its own problems separate from what DP's problems were.

I'll say it again, with the exception of Cilan, Best Wishes largely comes across as forgettable. Makes me wish Cilan existed back in DP instead, he and Dawn could have had good chemistry together.

I couldn't agree more with you. Lately I've felt like DP's problems are BW's strengths (main character chemistry, lack of believable humor for the most part, too long), whereas BW's problems are DP's strengths (maturation, growth of character, interesting rivalries, well-developed characters excluding Brock). Episode N definitely looks like it may be a decent arc (after the horrendous BWS2 arc) and it may end the series well-enough. I'm curious how the X and Y anime will be, actually, thinking of what's to come in the next arc.

Not really. OI wasn't as good as Kanto, but I still enjoyed it. Johto seemed like it would be an improvement, but questionable choices kept it from reaching its full potential. Like OI, I still enjoyed it. But from there, it only went downhill...

It steadily got better as time went on. Kanto/Johto was okay, though compared to newer seasons, was lackluster. AG was golden, having just the right balance of everything, ranging from main character's Pokemon to TRio, even the fillers seemed to have some purpose. DP seemed to improve on that feeling, but the humor department took a hit, especially with the darker tone it had (see: Paul). But once BW rolled in, well... let's just say reboots are not worth the effort (or pain). Kanto's/Johto's ideas were dropped for a reason, and BW "revived" those ideas, which was a bad move. While visually it got better in BW, the whole level of competence and development did a complete 180, which was way too painful to endure. But there was a lot of improvement as time went on in fields like storytelling, plot devices, Pokemon personalities, character development, etc. Sadly, that went the way of the dodo with BW.

While Kanto and Johto had its charms, compared to newer seasons like AG and DP, it was lacking a lot. Plus, looking back, the tone was a bit too goofy, even for my humor tastes. Sure, it involved a rookie Trainer who had to learn as he went, but comparing it to the more balanced humor and tones that AG and DP provided, it feels a bit too... crazy. Development comes with time and experience, and the characters seemed a lot more competent during AG and DP. Nowadays, a good story needs a good plot and development, something that was well-defined in AG and DP, but BW tossed out the window with the reboot strategy. Sadly, the show isn't what it used to be. Watching old DVDs of AG and DP show me how much the show had evolved during those years, showing both experience and a high level of storytelling. BW, sadly, didn't live up to that.

So, in short, while the OS was good, it had many, many flaws. Later gens evolved it into a masterpiece, but the most recent gen has crushed all that hard work, which is a shame since the games did such a fantastic job at plot-driven stories and gripping characters, usually its the reverse. Hopefully, if they do a Gen VI story line, the writers will have learned from BW's flaws and mistakes (in this case, the whole BW saga) and revive the way the show was during the AG and DP years; golden and strong.

Originally Posted by CynthiaLover

It steadily got better as time went on. Kanto/Johto was okay, though compared to newer seasons, was lackluster. AG was golden, having just the right balance of everything, ranging from main character's Pokemon to TRio, even the fillers seemed to have some purpose. DP seemed to improve on that feeling, but the humor department took a hit, especially with the darker tone it had (see: Paul). But once BW rolled in, well... let's just say reboots are not worth the effort (or pain). Kanto's/Johto's ideas were dropped for a reason, and BW "revived" those ideas, which was a bad move. While visually it got better in BW, the whole level of competence and development did a complete 180, which was way too painful to endure. But there was a lot of improvement as time went on in fields like storytelling, plot devices, Pokemon personalities, character development, etc. Sadly, that went the way of the dodo with BW.

While Kanto and Johto had its charms, compared to newer seasons like AG and DP, it was lacking a lot. Plus, looking back, the tone was a bit too goofy, even for my humor tastes. Sure, it involved a rookie Trainer who had to learn as he went, but comparing it to the more balanced humor and tones that AG and DP provided, it feels a bit too... crazy. Development comes with time and experience, and the characters seemed a lot more competent during AG and DP. Nowadays, a good story needs a good plot and development, something that was well-defined in AG and DP, but BW tossed out the window with the reboot strategy. Sadly, the show isn't what it used to be. Watching old DVDs of AG and DP show me how much the show had evolved during those years, showing both experience and a high level of storytelling. BW, sadly, didn't live up to that.

So, in short, while the OS was good, it had many, many flaws. Later gens evolved it into a masterpiece, but the most recent gen has crushed all that hard work, which is a shame since the games did such a fantastic job at plot-driven stories and gripping characters, usually its the reverse. Hopefully, if they do a Gen VI story line, the writers will have learned from BW's flaws and mistakes (in this case, the whole BW saga) and revive the way the show was during the AG and DP years; golden and strong.

In a way, I liked the simplicity and slapstick humor of Kanto, Johto, and BW. That's something that was especially lacking in DP to me (AG had some of it). The problem with BW is reversing everything and acting like nothing happened or progression ever occurred. That is its major flaw.

Even just speaking of the early seasons, there is a vast difference between them.

Orange Islands was obviously a step down from Kanto. There were a lot of great episodes in Orange Islands, but as a whole it wasn't as memorable as Kanto was. This is where the show started to be toned down for American audiences, hence all the Japanese style humor and buildings from Kanto weren't present in this arc. Let alone Tracey being created to appeal to Americans more.

Johto, again, depends on the season. It started off decently at the beginning but around the time that Charizard and Squirtle leave, and then the GS ball is dropped...is around where Johto started hitting a decline. I don't know what it was, but once Ash's Kanto starters split up is when Johto lost its magic, at least for me.

I dislike a lot of the episodes in "Johto League Champions" because that's when things got REALLY repetitive, although there were a few good ones. The middle of Johto was by far the weakest part of that saga. Master Quest had some good arcs even though by that point people just wanted Johto to end already since it was over 100 episodes by then.

Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty

Even just speaking of the early seasons, there is a vast difference between them.

Orange Islands was obviously a step down from Kanto. There were a lot of great episodes in Orange Islands, but as a whole it wasn't as memorable as Kanto was. This is where the show started to be toned down for American audiences, hence all the Japanese style humor and buildings from Kanto weren't present in this arc. Let alone Tracey being created to appeal to Americans more.

Johto, again, depends on the season. It started off decently at the beginning but around the time that Charizard and Squirtle leave, and then the GS ball is dropped...is around where Johto started hitting a decline. I don't know what it was, but once Ash's Kanto starters split up is when Johto lost its magic, at least for me.

I dislike a lot of the episodes in "Johto League Champions" because that's when things got REALLY repetitive, although there were a few good ones. The middle of Johto was by far the weakest part of that saga. Master Quest had some good arcs even though by that point people just wanted Johto to end already since it was over 100 episodes by then.

Very true. I like the Johto saga, and I can easily admit "Johto League Champions" was the worst part of it in my eyes. I also felt that some of its charm left when Ash left his Kanto behind for some reason. I think Johto and Sinnoh sagas, respectively, are judged too much on their filler episodes as opposed to their content itself as well. The Sinnoh Saga does have better content, for sure, but the Johto saga's major flaws came from some of its filler eps. The actual non-filler in Johto, however, is quite good and well written.

Originally Posted by SonGoku

Very true. I like the Johto saga, and I can easily admit "Johto League Champions" was the worst part of it in my eyes. I also felt that some of its charm left when Ash left his Kanto behind for some reason. I think Johto and Sinnoh sagas, respectively, are judged too much on their filler episodes as opposed to their content itself as well. The Sinnoh Saga does have better content, for sure, but the Johto saga's major flaws came from some of its filler eps. The actual non-filler in Johto, however, is quite good and well written.

IMO, something was lost when Charizard and Squirtle left. Now I understand Ash had to get rid of his Kanto pokemon eventually to make room for the Johto ones...but do you remember how incredibly popular Charizard was at the time? Its also why Falkner's Gym battle was so great. I know some people who actually stopped watching the anime shortly after Charizard left in early Johto.

To see Ash drop his experienced Pokemon to go to the "weaker" Johto starters felt like a slap in the fact at the time. I also loved Squirtle too.

I don't think it shocks anyone that the more exciting parts of Johto are the ones Ash's Kanto starters were present for, like the very beginning and the very tail-end.

Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty

Originally Posted by SonGoku

Very true. I like the Johto saga, and I can easily admit "Johto League Champions" was the worst part of it in my eyes. I also felt that some of its charm left when Ash left his Kanto behind for some reason. I think Johto and Sinnoh sagas, respectively, are judged too much on their filler episodes as opposed to their content itself as well. The Sinnoh Saga does have better content, for sure, but the Johto saga's major flaws came from some of its filler eps. The actual non-filler in Johto, however, is quite good and well written.

IMO, something was lost when Charizard and Squirtle left. Now I understand Ash had to get rid of his Kanto pokemon eventually to make room for the Johto ones...but do you remember how incredibly popular Charizard was at the time? Its also why Falkner's Gym battle was so great. I know some people who actually stopped watching the anime shortly after Charizard left in early Johto.

To see Ash drop his experienced Pokemon to go to the "weaker" Johto starters felt like a slap in the fact at the time. I also loved Squirtle too.

I don't think it shocks anyone that the more exciting parts of Johto are the ones Ash's Kanto starters were present for, like the very beginning and the very tail-end.

Agreed. "Charizard's Burning Ambition!" and "The Fire-ring Squad!" are two of my favorite eps in the Johto saga in general. For some reason, IMO, I didn't mind his Johto Pokemon too much despite them being so much younger and inexperienced. IDK why...

Originally Posted by SonGoku

Agreed. "Charizard's Burning Ambition!" and "The Fire-ring Squad!" are two of my favorite eps in the Johto saga in general. For some reason, IMO, I didn't mind his Johto Pokemon too much despite them being so much younger and inexperienced. IDK why...

I actually rather liked Bayleef, but I wish Cyndaquil and Totodile had both evolved. That's what let them down for me back in Johto. Ash having all 3 Johto starters in their middle stages would have been cool.

Its a shame the writers didn't really start evolving most of Ash's Pokemon till AG.

Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty

Orange Islands was obviously a step down from Kanto. There were a lot of great episodes in Orange Islands, but as a whole it wasn't as memorable as Kanto was. This is where the show started to be toned down for American audiences, hence all the Japanese style humor and buildings from Kanto weren't present in this arc. Let alone Tracey being created to appeal to Americans more.

I don't know. Barring Brock too early departure i enjoyed in Orange Islands just as much as i did with Kanto. Orange Islands as whole felt fresh,unique and had entirely different tone to it than future series. It was anime exclusive,with gyms and whole league format following different set of rules.Like having instead of gym matches shooting practice,races or making ice sculptures.
Not to mention it was nice to see main characters getting some growth. Such as exploring more on other sides Misty had like romantic and caring traits being real flirt there showing there's more to her than only temper, Ash restoring lost bond with Charizard winning something big for first time becoming OI champion. Along with several cool pokemon joining character teams like Snorlax, Lapras(temporarily), Poliwag etc.

Locations,gym leaders and whole story felt fresh,unorthodox and out of place being one of regions where writers really could use their creativity and imagination to fullest.

Master Quest had some good arcs even though by that point people just wanted Johto to end already since it was over 100 episodes by then.

If you ask me Master Quest was Johto saving grace being best season out of all three period. It had some bad episodes,but most of season was very good. There were much less fillers with most either being consisted of mini arcs or gave more development to characters. Brock and especially Misty got more focus dealing more with her dreams through whole arc for herself during Whirl islands along with gradually maturing focusing past and motives through interactions with others like Sakura, Egan or Dorian. There were several arcs introduced which contributed to current plot like Red Gyarados and Lugia featuring dr. Namba and TR in more threatening light, Larvitar, rampaging Dragonite in 5 episode arc with Clair etc. along with Johto Silver Conference being one of best leagues we ever had.

First time i watched it,it felt like breath of fresh air from 4th season and endless fillers. And in some aspects it felt like major step up from Kanto with battles becoming infinitely better along with stronger sense of continuity being present. Not to mention many pokemon were full of personality there.

It felt like writing style started to change being transferred later on AG saga as well(but to more notable degree).

Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty

IMO, something was lost when Charizard and Squirtle left. Now I understand Ash had to get rid of his Kanto pokemon eventually to make room for the Johto ones...but do you remember how incredibly popular Charizard was at the time? Its also why Falkner's Gym battle was so great. I know some people who actually stopped watching the anime shortly after Charizard left in early Johto.

To be fair that move was mostly done to make room for new Johto pokemon to find place in Ash team for advertizing purposes. Although i do remember being abit frustrated when Charizard was left with Liza originally thinking how he will end up like Pidgeot. Same goes for Squirtle jut to be very excited when they were brought back in 5th season.

Not sure if i remember many people leaving when Ash older pokemon left to train(at least not to same degree like it was when GS ball, got dropped or Misty left cast), but there indeed was lot of disappointment at that time with most fans not being sure if they will see his pokemon again.

p.s. However if there is one thing i feel Kanto series and OS in general done in much better manner than its successor series was simplicity and mix of slapstick, cleverly designed humor this era of pokemon was rich with.

In general there was more emotion and impacting scene knowing how to find its way to viewers heart and leave long lasting impact on them. To this day i remember how emotional Butterfree, Charizard, Lapras goodbyes were. Not to mention split of original trio which was full of drama and tension. Heartwarming episodes dealing with character issues and bond made between trainer and pokemon like "Charizard Chills", "For Crying Out Loud" or "Pikachu Goodbye".

New sagas may have more detailed battles, animation is on higher level and characters are better developed(not always, but in general they are). However in older seasons, especially in Kanto i get impression how anime was less of marketing tool with writers having how to say this: more courage to experiment with various things not sticking so closely to games like its case now. Formula was simply less predictable and creative with adventurous feeling saga was implemented with and fantastic chemistry between main cast leaving you in expentancy not knowing what will come next.

I suppose reason why in original series it can be noticed such discrepancy emotionally and structurally was also because of different style of writing. Aside from formula being focused more on humans and their relationship,going by ex head writer mr,Shudo he initially wanted to make pokemon family oriented show in which all generations could find something to relate to and enjoy.

He definitely knew imo how to bring true essence of journey in pokemon on surface.

No, not since Johto. Johto was just as good as Kanto, same with Orange Islands. In Hoenn, though, it declined, and it really shows. Instead of building up from the previous series', they go back to square one which didn't make sense.

Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain

No, not since Johto. Johto was just as good as Kanto, same with Orange Islands. In Hoenn, though, it declined, and it really shows. Instead of building up from the previous series', they go back to square one which didn't make sense.

I'm not sure by what you meant about how they went back to square one in Hoenn. That's when Ash really started to improve his skills with starting fresh, which was a terrific way of avoiding the same problem his Johto team had, although there were signs of that improvement in Johto too. I thought that Johto was better than both Kanto and the Orange Islands to be honest in retrospect. Kanto, while entertaining, is more overrated to me than anything else and the battles, aside from two Gym battles, were pretty bad in my opinion. The Orange Islands was decent, but pretty boring for a good chuck of its early episodes, and most of the Gyms were handled more like mini-games than actual battles. The only episodes I liked were Charizard learning to listen to Ash, Tracey catching Scyther, despite how it didn't do much afterwards, and Ash vs. Drake. Johto had better battles and more Pokemon with personality, even though the pacing was pretty bad.

I agree that Johto was better, in fact, I think it's the best.
By square one, I mean leaving everything behind (except Brock, buthe didn't come in until later)

Development of Pokémon and handling of rivals are things that got major improvement since the original series. I love how the pokemon have interesting personalities and get decent development now. Kanto did handle some pokemon backstories pretty well but the later seasons really improved on it. Even though I find Paul a bit overrated, I'll admit that he's the most well handled rival of Ash's, mainly because he actually got decent screentime and had several battles with Ash. With Gary he rarely appeared and he and Ash only had about 3 battles altogether.

Unova took a step back with the rivals, mainly because Trip was there to be a successor to Paul but failed. Georgia and Burgundy were handled much better than Trip and Stephan in my opinion. The problem with Unova is that it's relying on overused gags for jokes and they get old quick, like Bianca pushing Ash into the water, Stephan's name, Cedric's gag, etc. Cilan is probably the most entertaining character at the moment, but he lacks character development.

For me, the order I think things were handled best in terms of battles, character development, and humor go like this:

Sinnoh (rivals that were handled well for Ash and the battle style and also the best League in the series), Hoenn (character development, good rivals for May, humor), Kanto, Unova, Johto.

So in short, the show has improved since Kanto in some ways, but not so much in other ways.

Originally Posted by Misty Calls Masquerain

I agree that Johto was better, in fact, I think it's the best.
By square one, I mean leaving everything behind (except Brock, buthe didn't come in until later)

Brock came in four episodes into the series, so it wasn't gone for that long and certainly not long enough to complain about it. I still don't think that leaving the other characters, in this case Misty, and Pokemon behind is a bad thing and that isn't really back to square one per say. Ash was going back to basics by catching Pokemon with only Pikachu at first, but I think that was a good thing. Bringing in more Pokemon would have created the same problems that his Johto team had and Ash was doing a pretty good job training his new Pokemon too. I still think that replacing Misty with May was a great choice because it brought something new to the series and it was interesting to see a rookie trainer in the cast again. Going back to square one would be more like Ash acting exactly the same as he did when he first left Pallet Town, instead of just getting a new group of friends to travel around with or catching new Pokemon.