Thread: Do you think the show has improved since Kanto?

I watched a few more episodes, and my opinion kinda changed. I viewed it in a negative way, but I'm neutral now. The show's just okay as it is, but it's kinda too kiddy

ehhhh.... some what kanto has that just go back to childhood days feel but the newer ones really capture a battle. i think the one that captures both of those feels at least a little would be jhanto region.

The first season was the best and it has only gotten worse.
On paying attention to the "details", the newer seasons do a better job. Perhaps because season one was still in the process of being worked out so we get things like a statement from Brock about using a button in the Pokédex to change your party that it was never implemented into the show at all and a lot of conflicting accounts of whether the Johto Pokémon are just "newly discovered" (as it started out) or have been around all along and are just exclusive to a different region (as it was changed to during Johto). And a lot more errors are present in the old season.
On animation style, I like the first season the best, although that's just my preference.
On matching the games, the newer seasons do a better job with that.
On characters, I'd have to say that Misty and Brock are the best supporting cast.
On the story itself... the first season was the best. I think what happened was that they started running out of ideas or maybe they changed whoever was in charge or something but the newer episodes just don't compare with the old ones. Some are repetitive... none are at all as memorable. Some are just annoying. Also there seems to be a lot more filler... either that, or the filler is just less interesting (I mean... lets just do a comparison... the episode in the first season where Mankey stole Ash's hat was entertaining to say the least. A similar episode happened in one of the newer seasons where something took Ash's hat, but this time it wasn't as memorable (I don't even remember what kind of Pokémon it was that took it) and it was a lot less entertaining. Not to mention unoriginal... if they've already done an episode with a "hat theif" then why re-use that same idea?)). Also, new rivals don't make much sense. Ash knew Gary his whole life and they've always been rivals so it makes sense that they are competitive. Then we go into a newer season and Ash has a new rival who he just met and has no reason to even be rivals with other than the fact that they both have the same goal. But that could be just about anyone.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

Also, new rivals don't make much sense. Ash knew Gary his whole life and they've always been rivals so it makes sense that they are competitive. Then we go into a newer season and Ash has a new rival who he just met and has no reason to even be rivals with other than the fact that they both have the same goal. But that could be just about anyone.

What in the world? Since when does a rival have to be someone you knew your whole life? A rival could be anyone who competes against you for the same goal.

And giving Ash new rivals is of course essential to the show. I can't imagine what it would be like if Ash never had to battle anyone new.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

What in the world? Since when does a rival have to be someone you knew your whole life? A rival could be anyone who competes against you for the same goal.

And giving Ash new rivals is of course essential to the show. I can't imagine what it would be like if Ash never had to battle anyone new.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't battle anyone new... I'm saying that they shouldn't all be considered rivals. Not "rival" in the general sense, but "rival" in the way that him and Gary were rivals. Sure, he rivals every Pokémon trainer who is competing against him, but I'm not talking about those rivals. I'm saying that they took the idea of him vs. Gary and then applied it to some guy like Barry or Paul who Ash just met and has no reason to act like "I know you from somewhere... I have a beef with you... let's be rivals". Sure, they are rivals in the sense that they are all trying to win tournaments and all that, but it seems like the relationship is being forced on them and that there's no reason for Ash to even care about these people when they meet up again.

For me, the first season will always be special. I agree, it is probably more that I grew older and lost interest in the anime as I aged than it is that the show itself has gotten worse.

The first season was also aided by the newness of it all, the show, the games, the TCG. It was a phenomenon.

Another thing I've noticed is that Team Rocket seems to get worse as the series progresses. They've always been comic relief, but in the earlier episodes they were actually villianous and did stuff that made sense (even though all their stuff failed most of the time). After a while they just sort of ignored everything about Team Rocket and would just throw them in as the obligatory "funny guy". Like they would show up just for the purpose of "blasting off". Or they'd have some sort of new robot or something that in no way improves on previous attempts and was obviously not very well thought out (as if they've learned nothing from previous failures).

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

What in the world? Since when does a rival have to be someone you knew your whole life? A rival could be anyone who competes against you for the same goal.

And giving Ash new rivals is of course essential to the show. I can't imagine what it would be like if Ash never had to battle anyone new.

I'm not saying that he shouldn't battle anyone new... I'm saying that they shouldn't all be considered rivals. Not "rival" in the general sense, but "rival" in the way that him and Gary were rivals. Sure, he rivals every Pokémon trainer who is competing against him, but I'm not talking about those rivals. I'm saying that they took the idea of him vs. Gary and then applied it to some guy like Barry or Paul who Ash just met and has no reason to act like "I know you from somewhere... I have a beef with you... let's be rivals". Sure, they are rivals in the sense that they are all trying to win tournaments and all that, but it seems like the relationship is being forced on them and that there's no reason for Ash to even care about these people when they meet up again.

Paul and Barry are his competition in the league. Why, as a Pokemon trainer, should Ash not care about fighting his competition repeatedly as he travels a region? Reading your posts, I have concluded that nostalgia is blinding you. You are constantly saying that Gary is the only rival Ash should have because they knew each other and implying that he is the best rival out of all of his rivals. I don't know where you are getting this vibe that Ash acts as if he knew his rivals before he has ever met them.

If you watch the anime with an open mind and heart, you might like it more in the end. I'm not forcing you to watch it, but if "FIRST SEASON IS THE BEST ANYTHING ELSE IS BAD" is all you can think of while watching it then I suggest that you don't watch it if you're really not interested. I've been watching this anime on and off for the past 11 years a few years after it started and I still get some entertainment value out of it. Has it improved since kanto? It's a lot different, but in the end I have to say that it has improved in like, every aspect to me. Animation, characters, stories, epicness, battles, maturity, morals, comedy, you name it.

Kanto had a grand total of 3 banned episodes. One of them was banned because it was too vulgar(I'll admit that I laughed but that didn't mean that it was right) for its demographic, another of them was banned because it sent around 800 kids to the hospital due to seizures and another one was banned because of the use of constant shooting. So, HELL YEAH HAS IT IMPROVED.

Well, yeah, Ash should care about battling them when he gets the chance, but it seems to me like they are trying to establish some connection between them that's not really there. I don't know... maybe its because I'm comparing them too much to Gary. I'm not saying that they are necessarily bad characters or anytnong. But what I am saying is that yes, Gary was the best rival. If I had three rivals, one that I've known all my life and have always been competing against trying o prove which of us was better, one that I am competing against to prove that my training style is better, and one that I'm just competeing against because he's in my way of winning the League, I'd say that the one that the first one is my true rival. Or a real-world example would be... I enter a tournament with a friend. Even though I'm technically rivals with everyone in the tournament, there'd be more of a sense of victory beating my friend than beating some random guy (especially if me and my friend have been trying to prove which of us is better our entire lives). Its like, beating my friend would be on a personal level... beating that other guy would just be because I have to if I want to win the tournament.

Also,

Animation, characters, stories, epicness, battles, maturity, morals, comedy, you name it.

Many of those are a matter of preference. I like the old animation style... the colours just look better to me. And I like the effects like the red beam of the Poké Ball... the way they changed that really didn't improve it at all. And all the CGI (which is used way more often in the new episodes than in the old episodes) looks out of place. Characters... I really don't have much of an opinion... there's been good charcaters and bad characters in every season. I don't think that Cilan is any better or worse than Brock... as a matter of fact, they are practically the same character. You could literally draw Brock in place of Cilan and you'd never notice any difference except for Cilan isn't obsessed with girls. "Maturity" isn't because the show has improved at all... its because the characters are meant to resemble actual people who really do learn from past experiences and whatnot. How could Ash have been more mature in the first season, at a time when he was low on personal experiences (he has no idea how to act in defeat since he's never experienced it, he's not as smart battling because he hasn't battled much, etc.)? It makes perfect sense that a 10 year old just starting a Pokémon journey would act the way he did.
Also, the fact that three Kanto episodes were banned doesn't make the season itself any worse. It just means that they accidentally caused some seizures and included some inappropriate content (which was probably because it was so early in the series that the proper demographic wasn't even established). If they are unable to air an episode for any reason then of course they are going to not do that again... that doesn't mean that the show has "improved" so much as it means that they made some smart marketting decisions.

One word: Cilan.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

I'm saying that they took the idea of him vs. Gary and then applied it to some guy like Barry or Paul who Ash just met and has no reason to act like "I know you from somewhere... I have a beef with you... let's be rivals". Sure, they are rivals in the sense that they are all trying to win tournaments and all that, but it seems like the relationship is being forced on them and that there's no reason for Ash to even care about these people when they meet up again.

Except neither of Barry or Paul declared themselves as "rivals" to Ash, or vice versa. Ash's beefs with Paul began right at their first meeting when Ash questioned Paul when he promptly released 2 of the Starly, a tension which built up gradually with their next encounters, with their first 3-on-3 battle, when Paul refused to turn around to answer Ash's challenge to battle again right after their first battle, in the 6th DP episode it continued as their different training styles clashed with each other, they battled again... Nothing forced at all. Really, it feels like you either not watched these episodes or are giving the wrong judgment in order to defend Gary. I have no problem with anyone preferring Gary, I'd just appreciate if one checked the facts when comparing rivals.
With Barry... well, their "rivalry" was less justified, IMO, but still I can't remember ever one of them calling each other "rival". OK, I understand that you were probably exaggerating to pass your point, but even here there was a reason. Barry was interested in Ash because the former heard that Paul battled with him (he was a fan of him), plus he wanted to see him battle in the Gym against Fantina.
I only really liked Gary in Kanto because of his hilarious relationship with Ash, and even then they never battled there. The things that Gary was ahead on were things like reaching the locations first, being ahead in Gym Badges and having a bunch of girlfriends, which only served to give the illusion that he was better than Ash. His dialog was more or less "Hey, Ash, I'm already here, I have X badges, more than you! Didn't I mention I also have girlfriends? I'm always better than you!" most of his appearances in Kanto. Had he appeared more he would be FAR more memorable than he was.
I would put Harley ahead of Gary, because he didn't limit himself to taunt May, he'd always DO malicious plans to sabotage her contest journey. He ALWAYS came up with new entertaining plans against her, meaning he was unpredictable. When he left the show as a regular character in AG187, I wanted to see MORE of him, I wanted to know which things he'd come up against May in Johto. I didn't have overall the same enthusiasm with Gary, because his entertaining self disappeared as soon as he lost in the Indigo League, and I can only remember that side of his character reappearing once since then, in an Ash's daydream scene in AG187, again.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

Another thing I've noticed is that Team Rocket seems to get worse as the series progresses. They've always been comic relief, but in the earlier episodes they were actually villianous and did stuff that made sense (even though all their stuff failed most of the time). After a while they just sort of ignored everything about Team Rocket and would just throw them in as the obligatory "funny guy". Like they would show up just for the purpose of "blasting off". Or they'd have some sort of new robot or something that in no way improves on previous attempts and was obviously not very well thought out (as if they've learned nothing from previous failures).

Care to define "stuff that made sense" and give examples on villainous things that weren't from the 2nd episode? They've never really stopped being villainous, there were attempts in DP (and there were others in AG and Johto that I can't be bothered to check now) that were really well thought-of, such as in DP010, DP013, DP019, DP092, DP142, and I'm just telling those out of the top of my head, as it's the series I'm watching these days.
To me they never "got worse", they always had more or less the same "competence", in fact, arguably they were at their best in DP, even though it was more BECAUSE they also tried to be honest (such as Jessie's Sinnoh Contest arc).

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

Well, yeah, Ash should care about battling them when he gets the chance, but it seems to me like they are trying to establish some connection between them that's not really there. I don't know... maybe its because I'm comparing them too much to Gary. I'm not saying that they are necessarily bad characters or anytnong. But what I am saying is that yes, Gary was the best rival. If I had three rivals, one that I've known all my life and have always been competing against trying o prove which of us was better, one that I am competing against to prove that my training style is better, and one that I'm just competeing against because he's in my way of winning the League, I'd say that the one that the first one is my true rival. Or a real-world example would be... I enter a tournament with a friend. Even though I'm technically rivals with everyone in the tournament, there'd be more of a sense of victory beating my friend than beating some random guy (especially if me and my friend have been trying to prove which of us is better our entire lives). Its like, beating my friend would be on a personal level... beating that other guy would just be because I have to if I want to win the tournament.

Answered above.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

I don't think that Cilan is any better or worse than Brock... as a matter of fact, they are practically the same character. You could literally draw Brock in place of Cilan and you'd never notice any difference except for Cilan isn't obsessed with girls.

Well, I won't take a stance and say who's the better character (especially when Cilan's still having his time on the show), but there are more things that set them apart than you think. First, he has brothers of around the same age as himself, which means he has a more equal relationship with them than Brock's siblings, who were all younger than him, and he only really interacted quite a bit with Forrest. Second, Cilan has obsession with a lot of hobbies, trains being one of his most memorable (for instance, I have a friend which I don't talk much with, but he's also obsessed with trains and does lots of videos of trains that pass on the stations in my country). Third, Cilan battles more than Brock, meaning he has a more active role in the episodes than him.


Mine opinion on the show since Kanto? It has evolved in every aspect, except humor, where Kanto's was better (in fact, this was the main reason I enjoyed Kanto).

Hmmm, yeah, maybe I wasn't being fair to the other rivals by comparing them to Gary.

Care to define "stuff that made sense" and give examples on villainous things that weren't from the 2nd episode? They've never really stopped being villainous, there were attempts in DP (and there were others in AG and Johto that I can't be bothered to check now) that were really well thought-of, such as in DP010, DP013, DP019, DP092, DP142, and I'm just telling those out of the top of my head, as it's the series I'm watching these days.
To me they never "got worse", they always had more or less the same "competence", in fact, arguably they were at their best in DP, even though it was more BECAUSE they also tried to be honest (such as Jessie's Sinnoh Contest arc).

What I mean was, in the first season their plans seemed a lot more thought out than they do in the newer episodes. In the newer episodes, their plan is sometimes to just "grab Pikachu and run". I'm not saying it's always like that in the new episodes and that it was never like that in the old episodes... I'm just saying that that's how it seems in general, in the episodes I've seen at least. I have not seen all the episodes, but I would expect that the ones I have seen would give at least a somewhat accurate depiction of what's going on (unless I'm just getting really unlucky and seeing only the episodes where Team Rocket is doing their lesser plans and I'm missing all the episodes with their good plans).
In the older episodes they came close to succeeding quite a few times... they even did manage to successfully steal Togepi and give it to Giovanni (but Giovanni didn't want it so he let it go). This never happens anymore, and I don't think its because Ash is becoming any smarter or Team Rocket is becoming any stupider.
And like, in the older episodes they knew that Ash would just use Pikachu to destroy their machines so they used to insulate the machines a lot. I know that they insulated them in the newer episodes sometimes, but usually they don't... and usually the excuse is "I didn't have enough money to insulate it", which really makes no sense. Wouldn't it be better to build a single insulated machine that will get the job done than to build two crappy machines that are guaranteed to fail? Even Team Rocket isn't that stupid.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

What I mean was, in the first season their plans seemed a lot more thought out than they do in the newer episodes. In the newer episodes, their plan is sometimes to just "grab Pikachu and run". I'm not saying it's always like that in the new episodes and that it was never like that in the old episodes... I'm just saying that that's how it seems in general, in the episodes I've seen at least. I have not seen all the episodes, but I would expect that the ones I have seen would give at least a somewhat accurate depiction of what's going on (unless I'm just getting really unlucky and seeing only the episodes where Team Rocket is doing their lesser plans and I'm missing all the episodes with their good plans).

Nah, I still don't think they were all that much clever in the beginning. You probably didn't see a lot of AG and DP episodes, so I think you're definitely missing a lot of their good plans. Plus, the fact that Jessie became a Coordinator in AG and then took up a notch in DP added to the screen time that Team Rocket just couldn't focus on their plans, in favor of the Contests.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

In the older episodes they came close to succeeding quite a few times...

They also did that a lot in the later series, if you payed attention/watched many more episodes.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

they even did manage to successfully steal Togepi and give it to Giovanni (but Giovanni didn't want it so he let it go).

Technically they didn't steal it. Togepi just happened to appear in front of them after it somehow ended up in a Fearow's mouth. Team Rocket didn't get Togepi by battling the group or sneaking for a moment to take it, it just went away in one of its characteristic pranks and Team Rocket didn't have to do absolutely any effort to steal Misty's Pokémon from the group.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

This never happens anymore, and I don't think its because Ash is becoming any smarter or Team Rocket is becoming any stupider.

Yes, it does. They were able to steal the Thunderstone from Ash in DP074 that he carried from way back in EP014. There was also a borderline case, but which happened with a kid in DP080. Basically, he weakened a Yanma and was about to catch it, but TR appeared on the lake beside the Pokémon on a sub and took the Pokémon to bring it to Giovanni, only to send it back, just like in EP063.

Originally Posted by dannyjenn

And like, in the older episodes they knew that Ash would just use Pikachu to destroy their machines so they used to insulate the machines a lot. I know that they insulated them in the newer episodes sometimes, but usually they don't... and usually the excuse is "I didn't have enough money to insulate it", which really makes no sense. Wouldn't it be better to build a single insulated machine that will get the job done than to build two crappy machines that are guaranteed to fail? Even Team Rocket isn't that stupid.

Point taken, but I still think they did it more often than you think. When I'll start a new marathon of the series, I'll try to count all those instances of TR's plans to get a clear picture of the thought they put in them over the years.

So no, I still don't think Team Rocket was all that much better in Kanto than afterwards, they're pretty much equal for me (at least from Kanto to Sinnoh).


I'm sorry if I went a bit off-topic, but I think this discussion still falls in this thread. Or we could create a "Has Team Rocket('s plans) improved since Kanto?" thread.

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

The first season has a indescribable feel that makes it good but it is riddled with errors. Late AG and DP improved on it after the feel was gone but the massive amounts of filler made it worse in that regard. BW is lousy. Basically newer seasons have better battles but worse filler. BW is just plain bad.

I agree with the B/W statement. Just thought about watching a knato episode, the theme tune made a massive grin on my face! Brocks voice has changed massively, and my defo fave series has to be sinnoh i think :)

Originally Posted by Waldy565

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

The first season has a indescribable feel that makes it good but it is riddled with errors. Late AG and DP improved on it after the feel was gone but the massive amounts of filler made it worse in that regard. BW is lousy. Basically newer seasons have better battles but worse filler. BW is just plain bad.

I agree with the B/W statement. Just thought about watching a knato episode, the theme tune made a massive grin on my face! Brocks voice has changed massively, and my defo fave series has to be sinnoh i think :)

To add more detail, I started watching Kanto in about 2002 when Advanced was on, kanto was on occasionally, but of course I was heavily influenced by Advanced, but it definetley got more mature from then on, while still retaining that classic pokemon humor. After Advanced, I stopped watching until I saw a sinnoh epsiode and I was blown away, to tell you the truth. I think it was the maturity, the script, the humor, the directing, the music... the list goes on. Then BW came on... sorely dissapointed, especially after hearing from a pokenut that Cilan is taking over Ash. Can anyone confirm this?

@Waldy565 - next time you want to quote more than one person, use the multiquote feature, please. Generally double-posting isn't allowed.