Thread: Do you think the show has improved since Kanto?

Many video game and anime fans all over the internet state that "the first season of Pokémon was the best, the new seasons are terrible." I'm curious to know what Bulbagarden members think. Do you believe that the show has improved since Kanto (as in storylines, humor, character development, etc.)?

The first season has a indescribable feel that makes it good but it is riddled with errors. Late AG and DP improved on it after the feel was gone but the massive amounts of filler made it worse in that regard. BW is lousy. Basically newer seasons have better battles but worse filler. BW is just plain bad.

It improved in some areas but got worse in others. I agree the feel of the first season has never been recaptured.

It had nothing to do with the characters either, because Johto used the original trio but nothing was the same.

After Johto, it just got progessively better until Best Wishes in terms of characters, plots, humour and over all fun.

In terms of battles, it's improved progessively until Best Wishes.

In terms of fabulousness, that increased espescually in Best Wishes.

Originally Posted by Madame Pika

After Johto, it just got progessively better until Best Wishes in terms of characters, plots, humour and over all fun.

In terms of battles, it's improved progessively until Best Wishes.

In terms of fabulousness, that increased espescually in Best Wishes.

I agree with you except for that last one.

I couldn't agree with Gliscor'd more but I'd go as far to say trying to recapture whatever the fuck kanto had is a bad idea even if the could do it. Instead of whimsy or adventure they should give the series intensity. And I think that is why BW is so bad and poorly received. It lacks intensity. And the Black and White games have loads of intensity so it can get infuriating.

I think it has improved, mostly because they have generally put more effort into the gym battles since then, at least until BW. I won't say that Johto is better because Johto just has way too many bland episodes, but everything that is good in it is still pretty good. They honestly didn't know the anime wasn't going to last that long when they made the first saga, so that's kinda in perspective. It wasn't until AG that they found out how to better fill in the gaps, and by DP even some of the irrelevent eps were entertaining. (BW would wreck all this, too) This is just my opinion, though, since if there's one thing that irritates me about the first saga, it's how goofy it is. For some people, it's the other way around, but for me, I just can't stand it anymore.

I think Best Wishes WAS the attempt to be like Kanto again, and as seen by fans it only half worked.

The old formula was abandoned for a reason, not sure why they tried to do it again.

I personally think the whole "new seasons suck, older ones were better" thing is mainly nostalgia-driven and partially comes from the fact that people grew older and Pokemon, in a way, lost the "shine" it seemed to have back in the early days. So it didn't exactly get worse, no; I think some of the plots the writers have been coming up with have been a lot more engaging than the simpler things we had in Kanto and Johto. It's mostly because of the repetitiveness of Pokemon that makes it get "stale" if you will... but even then, I think if I started out watching Sinnoh or even B/W as my eight year old self and Kanto was aired later down the road I'd have prefered the former much more lol.

All-in-all, yes, I think it's gotten better. More engaging character development and better storylines while the humor stayed relatively the same imho.

Originally Posted by Denton

I personally think the whole "new seasons suck, older ones were better" thing is mainly nostalgia-driven and partially comes from the fact that people grew older and Pokemon, in a way, lost the "shine" it seemed to have back in the early days. So it didn't exactly get worse, no; I think some of the plots the writers have been coming up with have been a lot more engaging than the simpler things we had in Kanto and Johto. It's mostly because of the repetitiveness of Pokemon that makes it get "stale" if you will... but even then, I think if I started out watching Sinnoh or even B/W as my eight year old self and Kanto was aired later down the road I'd have prefered the former much more lol.

All-in-all, yes, I think it's gotten better. More engaging character development and better storylines while the humor stayed relatively the same imho.

Everything about this. There are reasons why I prefer AG and DP to Kanto, although I will agree with the argument that each subsequent series has been unable to capture the whimsy of Kanto, even if the overall plot and characterization and pretty much everything is just better (and yes, this even includes aspects of BW).

emotionally, NO

animation, story and character wise
yes

One thing I always disliked about Kanto is how poorly handled Ash's Pokemon were. Its like everytime he got a new evolution, it would immediately be released. Its like the writers didn't want Ash to have any big, strong pokemon back then. Charizard would also remain unusable for some time.

Since Kanto, the show generally did get better, I think. Though there were periods where it dipped below the Kanto standards of quality... to me, that would be the Johto and BW eras of the series. Otherwise, the show post-Kanto has been a steady and gradual improvement over the years. And that's coming from someone who did watch the original series first many many years ago. I'm swayed by a lot of illogical nostalgia, but the Pokemon anime ain't one of the things that give me a rose-tinted glasses perspective of the past. The show's evolved and for the better, except for the current series which feels like it's trying to regress back to the old days more often than not. And that just strengthens my view on how the original series is extremely over-hyped.

Obviously it did in some aspects,thought it got worse in others.
In positive sense anime over the years improved in characters getting more development.
Anime wasnt anymore centered mostly around Ash as only central character with others being allowed to have their stories fleshed out more. Battling improved a lot since early days with more details and strategy being implemented into it. In Kanto aside from few battles(like Charizard vs Blain Magmar)most battles in reality were bad.

Group pokemon started to receive more screen time with their characters being fleshed out more. Aside from Ash Kanto starters, Misty Psyduck and Togepi almost none of twerps pokemon including TR had their personalities exploited out.

Pacing also got better, and i doint even need to mention how rivalries were handled by miles better compared to Kanto days when Gary appeared in few and far between episodes. Although it wasnt until Sinnoh that writers started treating rivals right(Paul comes to mind).

However i fell original series had more comedy,i enjoyed more in character interaction,anime stick less with games having unpredictable anime exclusive plots not adding so many game characters like future series did. Old series have their pros and cons giving lot of funny moments,smart and funny humor with original trio playing well as group overcoming their differences feeling like real group of friends with good personalities.
Group of Ash,Misty and Brock played out very well having good dynamic and interaction.From Ash naive and stubborn attitude, Misty temper, sarcasm and smart alec jokes being wrapped up with wise and cool attitude from Brocks character having un drainable source of knowledge and helpful tips.
They felt like family having excellent flamboyant dynamic and interactions between them being fun to see them starting to mature, over time opening more themselves to each other strengthening their friendship while providing lot of good comedy feeling like very close and genuine group(which transferred to OI and Johto in its better parts especially toward end).

Anime felt also very creative to me at that time,with writers not following games "close to close" as they do now with gym leaders being depicted in unique light(like famous Sabrina arc,Giovanni or lt.Surge) , more anime exclusive characters and arcs being delivered lik St.Anne or Island of Giant pokemon. Kanto also had some storylines which had "darker"tone to it like Viridian gym and Giovanni following first movie canon and whole thing with Mewtwo,or episode about giant Gengar and Alakazam("Ancient Puzzle of Pokemopolis").I also liked TR goofy attitude and more references to Japanese culture being provided.

Back than older series had different note to it with more focus being directed on development of characters and anime story in general than pokemon themselves like its case nowdays.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

It had nothing to do with the characters either, because Johto used the original trio but nothing was the same.

There were some things which felt same. Ash,Misty and Brock still felt like group of friends which knew themselves for long time , having fun as kids while traveling together. They were one of good points about Johto bringing humor, clash and entertainment when given chance to shine.

Presence of older pokemon like Bulbasaur and throwbacks to past with return of Kanto characters like Duplica, Koga sister Aya, Todd, Ritchie etc also left impression how pokemon as series still saved some of that old charm it used to have and you could tell how certain number of episodes felt like they were set in Kanto.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I think Best Wishes WAS the attempt to be like Kanto again, and as seen by fans it only half worked.

I really hope your joking. Pokemon was at its peak of popularity during original series,with original trio and anime o being praised by all kind of fans and generations becoming worldwide popular and accepted.

Old formula definitely worked,and only reason popularity started to decline eventually was aside from poor writing in Johto, because people started growing out of anime with fad starting to disappear.
Fact that original trio split up caused such backlash only proves further how liked original series were.

Reason why BW didnt achieved such impact and never will, is because Unova doesnt have same style of writing original series had, it lack that charm and natural interactions between characters which Ash,Misty and Brock had.

Recreating something similar with Iris and Cilan which operates with regressed Ash on different level, with writing and humor being largely different, is doomed to fail from start.

The old formula was abandoned for a reason, not sure why they tried to do it again.

It was abandoned because of game promotion. Since protagonists in BW games are older along with there not existing second side quest, its logical why writers went back to one main star and two sidekicks.

I liked the very first episodes way better than any of them. I don't hardly watch the show anymore, just movies and the shorts with just pokemon. The human characters get annoying.

Slack-shtick humor might be the only thing the the later sagas lack that many of the Kanto episodes had (with occasional exceptions). Otherwise, yes, I would say that the anime has improved since Kanto. We have legitimate gym wins; overall more focus and character for more of the main Pokemon and not just selected ones; and better writing in general, such as with the overall handling of rivals, ect.. Johto may have been a setback in comparison for the most part (and I personally wasn't the biggest fan of the Orange Islands saga), and BW may have dropped in quality in certain areas, and while there may have been some occasional stumbling blocks throughout the later series (Ambipom's release comes to mind; that was a Kanto-esque move), overall, I'd say the later series' are still an improvement over the first saga.

Kanto is fun, but I'd rather be watching the show when there are more ongoing plotlines involved in addition to occasionsal fun-filled side episodes, namely DP.