Thread: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

Originally Posted by Human

It exists. There isn't an expiration date in this case, but there is a limit to how much stuff you can cram into a single character. The more you cram, the more that character is bound to fall and turn out to be terribly written.

Quality of writing is fairly subjective. Something you consider to be badly written, doesn't necessarily mean how other side will share same sentiment about this.

And Ash character is still unexplored by large decree. If you provide new challenges and trials for someone to overcome reflecting his further growth they don't have to end up forced if you write them in way to link to previously established story, coming out as believable sequel.

More you add to character can work both ways; also meaning to give more substance/meat to his story exploring different sides of characterization adding fresh note to it.

Ideas for what to do with one character aren't unlimited you know. It would be harder to make any idea that is any good if they're filled up with them. Ash's antics don't bore me, but the thing is, Ash is fat with ideas.

Filled up? Ash hasn't even won league yet, it took us almost 14 years to find out something about his poke master career until Lucian revealed concept of champion league. His past on large part is unexplored and there is plenty material to work with his goal by introducing steps someone needs to overcome to achieve this.

Take a look at other anime like DBZ, One Piece, Naruto, Ben 10, Bakugan etc. They all keep same main protagonist creating new challenges and goals to accomplish without feeling forced and their protagonists are more developed than Ash is.

15 years

Hence being reason why it would be ridiculous to replace him after so much time.

You can't enjoy the same EXACT THING for 15 years. I'd rather have a new protagonist. At least they won't be fat and have lots of new potential that could take the show in a different direction.

Yes you can, im still enjoying Ash character and im pretty sure im not the only one. There are anime which last longer than 15 years like Doraemon, Simpson, Sazae-San etc and audience is still enjoying in its cast.

Not to mention you can take show in new directions while keeping Ash as well, so i don't see your point at all. Especially when Ash has actual potential to go on bigger things ranking up as trainer and discovering new more complex ways of battling and bond you establish with pokemon, since he already has background to build upon.

It would be more interesting to follow adventure oif already experienced character going in undiscovered directions, than adding another greenhorn taking him through same basic approach its expected to happen from such character.

As long gyms will be main quest in games, whoever comes in Ash place will be doing same thing we watched for past 15 years going from start all over again ending as rehash of what we already saw.
Something im not interested in slightest already having reruns of older series to follow someone going from baby steps.

Master goal = Win a Pokemon League

Not really. Otherwise Lucian wouldn't mention champion league as one of steps(not the only one) you need to pass on road of becoming master. Becoming pokemon master equals strongest trainer in world, meaning there are other leagues to conquer, E4 to defeat and pass special tasks which measure your growth as trainer like BF was to carry out your name worldwide.

Since winning one league makes you strongest trainer of that region, but not strongest worldwide.

I wouldn't be surprised if there exist league, quest for masters to conquer in order to earn this title.

They can achieve it and then make a clean state. Nobody here is saying they should make a clean slate before allowing Ash to win a league.

They could, but whats the point in doing revamp altogether after having continuity based series with same protagonist for so long?

When Ash story ends, its better imo to finish of anime altogether concluding it on good note, instead of making new second rate series in which majority of viewers likely wont be interested ruining picture and positive reputation this show established about itself.

Nothing lasts forever, and this applies to pokemon series as well.

"It's TRADITION!" didn't work out too well for Tevye, though. The facts of the matter is that Ash has held the spotlight for far too long with too little development in comparison to what he is today. Sure, he might have grown by DP... but he's reverted too thanks to BW. It's time for him to leave, regardless of the potential in a Pokémon animé babies spin-off. The animé can continue without him- Ash and Pikachu are the animé only by choice, not by necessity. Give him a big finale, show him reuniting with Brock, Tracey, Misty, May, and Max, have him duel Lance and finish off the story.

It's time to get rid of him.

If Ash is replaced something is gained. First it will give us a pretty kick ass finale. Second the whole "You are mad because Ash derps but the new guy is going to derp" He may but that won't be nearly as annoying because the new guy will be new it would make sense. Third even if they INTENTIONALLY make the new guy an Ash clone he will probably be different. Ritchie is the same as Ash is now but he is different than Ash was before and he is a lot gentler so even an intentional Ash clone is different just different in the wrong ways.

Let's imangine a copy of Ash but change one tiny thing and look how it makes it different enough. Say this guy Ryo let's say has all of Ash's trait EXCEPT he act's like he's IMSing 24/7.

So Ash is oblivious to girls right well Ryo would be oblivous too. SOOOO when a girl has a crush on him, HE WOULD YELL at them constantly. Saying things like "Quit teasing me" "Why are you acting so funny? we got stuff to do" and "Why are you being such a suck up?"

See completely different then Ash. And I think that's funny. A little said but funny. And it is COMPLETELY different then Ash.

To be honest, the problem/question shouldn't be should ash be replaced, it should be can Ash be replaced?

I don't think it would be wise to get rid of Ash from marketing standpoint at all. He is extremely popular and recognized worldwide being writers source of money , and to get rid of someone who proven to be successful in favor of completely new cast and anime altogether could reflect very negatively on business and viewers interest.

It wouldn't be first time that new anime experienced drastic drop in ratings compared to original creation with people losing interest for it. Yugioh GX, new adaptations of Beyblade or Digimon come to mind.

Reason why pokemon is still massively popular even after decade and half is because its treated as entity following gradual progression and filled with continuity story from established protagonist and his friends. Its because of adventure aspect of one character exploring world and learning new things building up on story which attracts new generations toward it and keep big number of older followers loyal toward it. Considering it keeps them interested to see how will characters they grew to like end up and with what new things writers can come up. All of this ensures large group of followers which are willing to stay with anime from start to very end to see how will things conclude, investing in characters they care about.

Something which creates brand about some anime and maintain watchers loyalty toward it.

For same reason other shows in comparison like One Piece , Naruto, Bleach etc are among most popular anime creations out there, because their continuity based story and gradual growth of established cast keep people hooked on it.

Which proved to be recipe for success and explains Ash long stay. Not to mention Ash and Pikachu are icons of anime building its reputation and popularity around the world with millions of generations growing with them. His recognizable face created identity through which pokemon became known, attracting millions of new fans toward it and its merchandize.

New protagonist can't do that since he doesn't have popularity and charisma build around himself like long stay characters do, making it harder to spread out pokemon name globally through someone who is completely unknown lacking reputation and familiarity through which people could associate this show to.

People want to follow growth of already experienced character broadening on his development, hence explaining why so many fans out there wants to see him grow beyond winning league such as challenging E4, going through special harder challenges doing bigger steps forward. No one is interested in following chopped alternate versions of anime delivering cheap knock of from Ash going through same basic growth all over again until he wins league, rinse and repeat after every few years never going with protagonists beyond this.

Its not about Ash in here but iconic status he and Pikachu build around themselves and taking them out after so many years could lead to drop of interest among viewers pulling with itself drop of money.

Using BW and stagnation of Ash character as "proof" how there is nothing left to be done is logical fallacy in itself or "Cherry Picking" , because current regress of Ash character is direct consequence from game changes rather than anything else and their intention of trying to promote vibe of "fresh start". Which explains removal of contests and Brock, change of formula going back to two gym leaders traveling with main protagonist again, initial lack of pokemon etc.

People said same thing about writers not having anything else left to do when Ash won BF, but contrary to false claims writers raised up bar and developed him further in DP creating more sophisticated manner of battling coming further in league than he ever did, along with explaining how there are other steps to accomplish in order to become master aside from winning regional tournament(like champion league).

Possibilities are endless to do more with Ash growth and lack of imagination which prevails in here to take character through more meaningful , interesting pathway than what we used to see is incredible.

No, Ash should never be replaced. I grew up with Advanced Generation, (because i'm not a 90's kid) and have watched pokemon religiously to this very day. I own the indigo league and adventures in the orange islands on my computer, and after having grown up with Ash Ketchum, he seems to be a close childhood friend to me. I feel that they could do more with the series, such as creating a spinoff set 3-5 years later, but trying not to make it too shippy, thus giving Ash more character development. They could do more with his character, but I don't want to see Ash replaced by some other idiot kid who overslept on the day he could get his starter. Ash and Pikachu shall forever be the stars of the pokemon anime.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

For same reason other shows in comparison like One Piece , Naruto, Bleach etc are among most popular anime creations out there, because their continuity based story and gradual growth of established cast keep people hooked on it.

Which proved to be recipe for success and explains Ash long stay. Not to mention Ash and Pikachu are icons of anime building its reputation and popularity around the world with millions of generations growing with them. His recognizable face created identity through which pokemon became known, attracting millions of new fans toward it and its merchandize.

New protagonist can't do that since he doesn't have popularity and charisma build around himself like long stay characters do, making it harder to spread out pokemon name globally through someone who is completely unknown lacking reputation and familiarity through which people could associate this show to.

People want to follow growth of already experienced character broadening on his development, hence explaining why so many fans out there wants to see him grow beyond winning league such as challenging E4, going through special harder challenges doing bigger steps forward. No one is interested in following chopped alternate versions of anime delivering cheap knock of from Ash going through same basic growth all over again until he wins league, rinse and repeat after every few years never going with protagonists beyond this.

Its not about Ash in here but iconic status he and Pikachu build around themselves and taking them out after so many years could lead to drop of interest among viewers pulling with itself drop of money.

Using BW and stagnation of Ash character as "proof" how there is nothing left to be done is logical fallacy in itself or "Cherry Picking" , because current regress of Ash character is direct consequence from game changes rather than anything else and their intention of trying to promote vibe of "fresh start". Which explains removal of contests and Brock, change of formula going back to two gym leaders traveling with main protagonist again, initial lack of pokemon etc.

People said same thing about writers not having anything else left to do when Ash won BF, but contrary to false claims writers raised up bar and developed him further in DP creating more sophisticated manner of battling coming further in league than he ever did, along with explaining how there are other steps to accomplish in order to become master aside from winning regional tournament(like champion league).

Possibilities are endless to do more with Ash growth and lack of imagination which prevails in here to take character through more meaningful , interesting pathway than what we used to see is incredible.

My problem with Ash Ketchum is they pretty much reset his character in a sense every single region since Kanto. Why take all the skills he learns and strategies he has come up with and erase them, just to have him redo the whole process over again?

Originally Posted by Darthbane2007

My problem with Ash Ketchum is they pretty much reset his character in a sense every single region since Kanto. Why take all the skills he learns and strategies he has come up with and erase them, just to have him redo the whole process over again?

To be fair with Ash you could never get impression of being regressed until BW. In Johto his pokemon kept their original strength with Ash becoming a bit more mature and less reckless as battles showed. In Hoenn writers aggrandize on whole maturity with Ash becoming "grown" enough to take mentor role to May making big progress as trainer when winning BF, and in DP arguably bar got raised even higher coming closest to winning league than he ever did.

Sure Pikachu got regressed for some cheap excuse at start of every nw region8whether its because of Tr machine which extracted electricity in Ag, because of exhaustion etc) and he always started fresh to catch new pokemon for advertizing but as character you could tell he was gradually growing and learning from his wins and defeats.

It wasn't until BW that he was regressed few steps back and that's mostly because of BW games revamp trying to sell vibe of "new beginning", with drastic change of several things compared to past series adding to that.,

Potential stored in him exists, waiting to be extrapolated but way i see it writers are lacking motivation/ push to go forward.

And judging by mostly negative reception established about this series and character development if this shows to not work, writers might very well get Ash characterization back on right tracks changing their approach with way his story is handled.
Something which started to change already with Ash seeming more experienced and similar to his previous characterization in better days at this point compared to debut in BW where sign of regression was much more noticeable.

As disappointment increases this only accelerates process toward changes and getting out of current "status quo" if writers want to maintain viewer interest. After all if viewers aren't satisfied with current quality or changes this will result in drop of people interest which directly reflects on rating statistic.

So in reality key to solution of problems doesn't lie in cast changes because that wont change anything, but in writers changing their writing style and way they handle characters.

Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132

Originally Posted by Darthbane2007

My problem with Ash Ketchum is they pretty much reset his character in a sense every single region since Kanto. Why take all the skills he learns and strategies he has come up with and erase them, just to have him redo the whole process over again?

To be fair with Ash you could never get impression of being regressed until BW. In Johto his pokemon kept their original strength with Ash becoming a bit more mature and less reckless as battles showed. In Hoenn writers aggrandize on whole maturity with Ash becoming "grown" enough to take mentor role to May making big progress as trainer when winning BF, and in DP arguably bar got raised even higher coming closest to winning league than he ever did.

Sure Pikachu got regressed for some cheap excuse at start of every nw region8whether its because of Tr machine which extracted electricity in Ag, because of exhaustion etc) and he always started fresh to catch new pokemon for advertizing but as character you could tell he was gradually growing and learning from his wins and defeats.

It wasn't until BW that he was regressed few steps back and that's mostly because of BW games revamp trying to sell vibe of "new beginning", with drastic change of several things compared to past series adding to that.,

Potential stored in him exists, waiting to be extrapolated but way i see it writers are lacking motivation/ push to go forward.

And judging by mostly negative reception established about this series and character development if this shows to not work, writers might very well get Ash characterization back on right tracks changing their approach with way his story is handled.
Something which started to change already with Ash seeming more experienced and similar to his previous characterization in better days at this point compared to debut in BW where sign of regression was much more noticeable.

As disappointment increases this only accelerates process toward changes and getting out of current "status quo" if writers want to maintain viewer interest. After all if viewers aren't satisfied with current quality or changes this will result in drop of people interest which directly reflects on rating statistic.

So in reality key to solution of problems doesn't lie in cast changes because that wont change anything, but in writers changing their writing style and way they handle characters.

I think that's a major problem with the anime; the way they handle characters, either they shafted characters too early, or some characters stay way past their tenure and can get tedious and boring..

Originally Posted by Darthbane2007

I think that's a major problem with the anime; the way they handle characters, either they shafted characters too early, or some characters stay way past their tenure and can get tedious and boring..

Don't you think that's fairly subjective though? Many people still consider Ash interesting character and personally i can see why, because surprisingly he is still fairly enjoyable to me as well.

People often like to claim for certain characters how they "run their course" etc, but honestly in anime with relatively simple writing and more often than not shallow plot none of characters was developed to such degree or went that far with story that we could say how he was dragged on longer than needed from narrative standpoint.

Sure with shafting or lack of more notable growth character can become stale, but that's completely different subject.
But like i brought up earlier without going in detail again, if character which may seem boring now is taken in new/ interesting directions with new life being breath into it he can become appealing again.

Writers could definitely take Ash beyond winning one league emphasizing on his growth beyond simple trainer, challenge elite members, travel to other regions passing more challenging tasks about which we aren't familiar with raising bar in dream of becoming pokemon master.

Winning one league doesn't have to be end of his journey, and judging by what one of E4 in DP said it certainly isn't, revealing how there are other tasks someone needs to achieve to become "master"(champion league being one of them).

Biggest disappointment with Ash judging by complaints comes from lack of growth going forward beyond usual journey of collecting 8 badges trying to win league, which is another reason why replacing him with completely new protagonist would completely deprive viewers of chance from seeing established protagonist being taken deeper.

With new character we can't expect anything of that going through same baby steps again just starting out with no background or experience behind himself following adventures of Ash 2.0 traveling through regions and trying to win league. Seems very repetitive and bring to me not solving any of current issues at all.

Regardless of what some may think with Ash there at least exist predispositions to see him go through deeper growth and sooner or later writers will have to find courage and break through traditional formula they have been handling Ash currently advancing his story by giving new angle to series, if they want to maintain viewers interest and retain popularity(which is somewhat in decline, though for several factors like lack of hype, cast changes, predictable plots etc).

Personally im not fan of replacing characters which have potential to offer more and judging by brand and iconic status Ash established about itself with people associating anime with him and yellow rodent is another reason why i don't think his change would be smartest idea to do, involving too much of risk after so much time.

Originally Posted by Ampharos King

I believe that Ash is far too valuable as a stock character to ever be replaced in the anime. Ash is supposed to be based off of Satoshi Tajiri himself, the creator of the Pokemon franchise. Even though Tajiri no longer works on the games with Game Freak, the man is still credited in each of those games simply because of his relevancy. The same could apply in the anime. The writers may not have the heart in them to ever replace Ash's presence in the anime, as it may further disrespect everything that Tajiri himself had worked hard to create up until this point.

If Ash should be replaced, then Pikachu should not be too far behind. Most of the posts in this thread only accounted towards American fans, and how the majority of viewers had discontinued from watching the series after the end of Johto. Keep in mind that it is in JAPAN, not in America, where Pokemon receives the majority of its viewership. Pocket Monsters is a very popular anime, so much so that it consistently ranks at or near the top 10 most watched anime series every single week in Japan.

Ash should not be replaced simply because it may affect the franchise's marketability. You really cannot replace Ash without replacing Pikachu, or vice-versa. We, the fans, instantly recognize Ash and Pikachu as a solid pair. Take one half of that pair away, and the franchise in of itself loses some of that momentum when it comes to advertising new products.

Some people may complain that Ash has been the focus of the anime for far too long, that the writers should replace him with a much older, experienced trainer in an attempt to expand the market to appeal to older audiences. I always felt that Pocket Monsters was a series generally geared towards younger audiences, with slight undertones such as mild violence and complex characterization in order for their other family members to watch as well. I've always felt that replacing the most crucial characters in any television series would change that series's reputation and likeability forever. If the anime had wanted to change its main demographic, they would have already done so by completing scrapping Ash and Pikachu's endeavors.

I am not even sure if the fans, whether they would be from Japan or internationally, would react positively to a possible Ash replacement. Many of the international fans may have left the series precisely because Misty was replaced by another female protagonist after the end of Johto. Imagine what would result if Ash himself was replaced? Imagine if Pikachu was replaced by another pokemon in the future? The writers would not risk axing Ash or Pikachu off just to vitalize this series for a bit longer in an attempt to "freshen things up." Such a bold move might cause severe damage to the franchise as a whole.

I agree with you, Ampharos King. The anime will never be the same without Ash or without Pikachu. They've been a solid pair since episode 1, and that's that, just like Ash is always hungry and that's that. Take Pikachu away, and we get a Depressed Ash. Take Ash away, and we get a Depressed Pikachu. And again, Pokemon is a kids' show.
Conclusion: You shall never replace Ash or Pikachu.

Conclusion: replace both at the same time.

Remember that the whole point of the Pokémon animé is to advertise the games. And the last time Red was relevant was GSC, so Ash is way past his prime. So you know what? Ash can be replaced. He should be replaced. He is not Pokémon, and if we really, really need a Pikachu give the next main a Pikachu. The franchise can grow without him, and he really hasn't been the main driver of the series since ever, since it's always been the gameplay that has gotten people to buy the games, not the story or the animé.

So the bottom line? Those series that lasted forever can't really be compared to the Pokémon animé because the animé's whole, entire purpose is a 22-minute-long advertisement. Not to tell a story or make the studio lots of money.

Originally Posted by Sith Droideka

Remember that the whole point of the Pokémon animé is to advertise the games. And the last time Red was relevant was GSC, so Ash is way past his prime. So you know what? Ash can be replaced. He should be replaced. He is not Pokémon, and if we really, really need a Pikachu give the next main a Pikachu. The franchise can grow without him, and he really hasn't been the main driver of the series since ever, since it's always been the gameplay that has gotten people to buy the games, not the story or the animé.

So the bottom line? Those series that lasted forever can't really be compared to the Pokémon animé because the animé's whole, entire purpose is a 22-minute-long advertisement. Not to tell a story or make the studio lots of money.

Or maybe the show is supposed to be more than hollow advertisement? That's always a possibility.

What else is the show supposed to be? Who honestly thinks it's not an advertisement? BW shows that the producers that be really don't care about quality or canon, just keeping the advertising up.

Originally Posted by Sith Droideka

What else is the show supposed to be? Who honestly thinks it's not an advertisement? BW shows that the producers that be really don't care about quality or canon, just keeping the advertising up.

Agreed fully. Those of us who have followed the show since its inception should know that by now. We are 15 years older now than when the series started. Ash, however, is not! He's still the same ten-year-old twerp with the same intelligence (or absence thereof).

Iris: "So, Ash, how long have you and Pikachu been travelling?"
Ash: "About fifteen years now."
Iris: "But you're only ten!"
Ash: "..."

At the very least, they should have introduced a time-skip like they did in Naruto, and brought him back when he'd aged a couple of years. He could well be a new character, in all but name, with a new personality and with a different level of intelligence and maturity.