Thread: Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

Well, if he magically gets his intelligence back somewhere along the line, sure he can stay. :)
You know what? I just don't think there's well, a point to replacing him. And you know you just hate him because you almost had a concussion when he asked Nurse Joy had he met her before in that BW episode. XD
/just kidding, of course
He was pretty OK pre-BW.
Well, OK, I haven't watched any BW episodes, so I can't talk, but by the way people are talking about him here, I almost don't want to watch them.
It's also unlikely they'll replace him, after they've had him on the show, for what, 15 years?
I'd have preferred him to age.

@pokemon fan 132
Yes I agree that there is still a lot of story that can be told from Ash's journey from champion to master but pokemon is a merchandising series they want to show the gym leaders and stuff so they would still want to do the badge quest. Besides Ash's journey can be told with time skips reliant mini series and movies.

And you say nothing will change because of the badge quest and Pikachu. But the badge quest is fine. Pikachu is fine. Ash just had enough good development he'll ever get without a climax in mind or some aging. I mean his flawlessness was at Ritchie levels before BW and if you think about it Ash best development in a long time was during DP and DP heavily foreshadowed the champion league so there's some evidence for you there. And I think you are too liberal with the term clone I mean people say Ritchie was an Ash clone but that was because the creators wanted you to believe that Ritchie was different enough to carry his own series (if he used some pokes Ash didn't of course) he was just different in the wrong way as in his personal style WHICH HE HAD was not suited for a main character but it was different. Every Star Trek captain was different enough every Robin was different enough every Yu-gi-oh protanginist and Digimon lead were for the most part different enough every power ranger team is different enough. He'll be different enough. Not only that but he can be the same through his characteristic but be different through relationships with other characters. He can be more reluctant to make friends but still be impulsive, he can tend to challenge people to battles to settle arguments but still like food. Even with same stuff he can be different enough. I don't want him to be replaced cause I don't like him I want him to be replaced because the route they are going there is not much the can to with him that hasn't already been done. And it not the amount of time that determines whether it is time for Ash to leave it's the story and storyline wise the time is now cause with every passing year the will be more and more reluctant to ever end his journey. What motive will they have to develop a character with an endless arc.

And as I said before without Ash around they will be more likely to experiment cause it is a completely different show. I can see it now groups with out passive roles tournaments that focus on more than 2 characters at once. Stuff like this will happen because it will be appropriate and expected.

YES, replace him and end the goddamn anime. It sucks.

Originally Posted by Anser

YES, replace him and end the goddamn anime. It sucks.

Technically there's no need to replace the guy if you're going to end the anime anyway.

However, why do you think he should be replaced? It's generally best to expand your answer with your own personal thoughts, especially if you're going to say that the subject of the forum sucks.

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

Yes I agree that there is still a lot of story that can be told from Ash's journey from champion to master but pokemon is a merchandising series they want to show the gym leaders and stuff so they would still want to do the badge quest. Besides Ash's journey can be told with time skips reliant mini series and movies.

And if Ash stays that doesnt mean he couldnt continue to do gyms and still make bigger progress as trainer than he is doing now. Winning one league doesnt make you best trainer nor master, with there existing other regions and leagues for Ash to conquer, new pokemon to catch growing forward as trainer. For example when Soledad won Grand Festival in Battle Frontier that didnt stopped her from traveling to Johto and next regions because her intention was to become best coordinatir in world and not of just one region. Same goers for Ash. Also inclusion of side quests with strong ompetition like BF or Orange Islands were, E4 challenge etc are several other ways through which Ash growth could be taken to new dimensions and levels not staying only on gyms.

And you say nothing will change because of the badge quest and Pikachu. But the badge quest is fine. Pikachu is fine. Ash just had enough good development he'll ever get without a climax in mind or some aging. I mean his flawlessness was at Ritchie levels before BW and if you think about it Ash best development in a long time was during DP and DP heavily foreshadowed the champion league so there's some evidence for you there. And I think you are too liberal with the term clone I mean people say Ritchie was an Ash clone but that was because the creators wanted you to believe that Ritchie was different enough to carry his own series (if he used some pokes Ash didn't of course) he was just different in the wrong way as in his personal style WHICH HE HAD was not suited for a main character but it was different. Every Star Trek captain was different enough every Robin was different enough every Yu-gi-oh protanginist and Digimon lead were for the most part different enough every power ranger team is different enough. He'll be different enough. Not only that but he can be the same through his characteristic but be different through relationships with other characters. He can be more reluctant to make friends but still be impulsive, he can tend to challenge people to battles to settle arguments but still like food. Even with same stuff he can be different enough. I don't want him to be replaced cause I don't like him I want him to be replaced because the route they are going there is not much the can to with him that hasn't already been done. And it not the amount of time that determines whether it is time for Ash to leave it's the story and storyline wise the time is now cause with every passing year the will be more and more reluctant to ever end his journey. What motive will they have to develop a character with an endless arc.

Which is main problem. If new protagonist would still do gym quest collecting badges with Pikachu being his main partner people would view him as nothing more than complete rehash of Ash character being essentially(Ritchie 2.0). There is no point in replacing character for another one which would essentially do same thing.

New guy wont start winning battles left and right, he wont do huge success at pokemon league nor he will be less idiotic and naive than Ash character is. Reason is because Ash personality is something which sells with big majority of shonen male protagonists acting childish and impulsive being heroes which save day doing good thing, with kids associating with such type.
Introucing new main character with drasticaly changed personality involves risk of tuirning young viewers away not being able to connect with such personakity bringing in danger their attention and interest starting to decrease.

Now if games ever come up with some other main quest for male protagonist to do aside from gyms, than i would be more keen on Ash being replaced since starting new career wouldnt make much sense nor go line in line with character. But for time being since gyms are only available option Ash should stay. There is a reason why people got tired of contests after Dawn not wanting to see third girl in a row doing same thing. Same goes for gyms, no one would be intereated in seeing after every few years new guy trying out and failing at same quest which Ash did doing rinse and repeat. Its pointless and counterpropductive. With Ash we actually follow gradual progress of established character doing further progress with each new league and journey coming closer toward realization of ambitions. We also get to see constant protagonist being more explored bringing new sides and layers of character, something which wouldnt be possible to do if anime started to change main protagonists like they are on mill track.

I also disagree about Ash storywise being ready for conclusion. We hardly know anything about his goal of pokemon master yet, he didnt made anything big so far which would bring him closer toward achievement of his own dreams bringing sense of closure. Until writers show some significant progression toward his dream being made either achieving goal or coming very close to it which would allow for believable end,his character should stay. And Unova definitely isnt suitable time and place for such thing judging by way Ash is currently being handled and developed being far from coming to any significant realization which would show notable progression of his story being made.

Ash is still full of flaws being bratty and naive,tends to rush into things without thinking being too reckless which cost him several matches, have problems in utilizing power of his pokemon to their true potentialmnot being enough calk, rational and collected yet to go on bigger challenges let alone become best trainer in world.

There is left a lot more to be done with him as trainer and his pokemon, with goal of pokemon master with win of one league being only one of steps(top of iceberg)with there existing ton of unexplored things about it, learn more about his past and family etc.

Talking about writers being reluctant, fact that they kept him for 15 years serves as strong proof how they arent in favor of Ash being replaced finding his leaving would be bnad for marketing and profit. Something i agree with because if you already have working formula which more than well promotes anime, brings money and catch people interest there is no need to get rid of it just to start out something differnt for hell of it creating risk of new idea failing among customers.

That would be simply bad business.

And as I said before without Ash around they will be more likely to experiment cause it is a completely different show. I can see it now groups with out passive roles tournaments that focus on more than 2 characters at once. Stuff like this will happen because it will be appropriate and expected.

But there is nothing to sday they couldnt experiment new things with Ash as well. Something which would be less risky for credibillity and popularity of anime while still bringing some freshness captivating viewers interest.

Originally Posted by Iteru

Originally Posted by Anser

YES, replace him and end the goddamn anime. It sucks.

Technically there's no need to replace the guy if you're going to end the anime anyway.

However, why do you think he should be replaced? It's generally best to expand your answer with your own personal thoughts, especially if you're going to say that the subject of the forum sucks.

Well, I meant it as the current anime should be ended and a new one should be started with brand new trainers (I'm thinking Hilbert, Hilda, Cheren and Bianca traveling together).

I think it sucks because it's not... original anymore. Too many filler episodes, Ash is already supposed to be an experimented trainer and he still makes dumb mistakes, and you can tell because Iris is always teasing him. The whole point of the adventure was seeing Ash grow up and become a better trainer, which he should have achieved by the second or third season. It's not entertaining anymore.

@pokemon fan 132

I personally think it would suck for Ash to be still doing gyms especially since we don't exactly how the champion league works I always assumed when you win you are part of a group of trainer called the champion league and you can fight each other or the elite 4 for doh why would he pass that up and the difference between Tobias and Solidad there is no elite 4 for contests it doesn't work the same way at all. Hell the only justificatiion for why we even see the battle anymore is because of Ash leaving his Pokemon at Oak's.(Not that a bad thing)

I don't see how giving him a Pikachu and a badge quest would make him an Ash clone almost EVERY TRAINER IN THE POKEMON WORLD IS CONNECTED TO THE LEAGUE IN SOME WAY. And you have yet to give me a reason to believe he would be a clone characters are different I given you a bunch of examples of good replacements hell Picard is better than Kirk so why be afraid. Barry's dumb Barry loses give Barry a Pikachu and I'd still watch that show. The difference between badge quests and contest were contests were designed as A MINI GAME the very introduction of contests would be doomed from the start. You failed to give me a solid reason to think he would be a Clone or a rehash.

Saying it is not time to end his story because we don't know what a Pokemon master is a nonsensical to me as bring the GS ball into this discussion. We don't need to know exactly what a master is to know that becoming champion is a huge freaking deal. Ash is totally ready to win a league hell he almost beat Tyson and that was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back in Hoenn. And the evidence just keeps piling up especially when you take into accoount that that was just his Sinnoh Pokemon. Before BW Ash was nearly perfect and I still think he is still 100% ethical to the point of being wooden so don't tell me he has a long way to go and expect me to believe you. And based on how much travel and work it takes to do a league it is a perfect way to end the series.

BW was poorly received. You yourself said you don't this to be the point where Ash leaves because you don't like the way his development is going and the name of the thread where you talk about what you like about BW is Called "What you ACTUALLY like about BW" it has actually in the title that how serious it gotten. And one of the most complaints come from the way they are treaty Ash and that shows they don't know what to do with him anymore. Ash shouldn't leave for the hell of it he should leave because if he doesn't leave soon he may never leave or get good development ever again.

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

@pokemon fan 132

I personally think it would suck for Ash to be still doing gyms especially since we don't exactly how the champion league works I always assumed when you win you are part of a group of trainer called the champion league and you can fight each other or the elite 4 for doh why would he pass that up and the difference between Tobias and Solidad there is no elite 4 for contests it doesn't work the same way at all. Hell the only justificatiion for why we even see the battle anymore is because of Ash leaving his Pokemon at Oak's.(Not that a bad thing)

That's pretty much an old case. The gym challenging and league challenging is thrilling indeed but I have to say that with the exception of a few, the whole process is just being recycled. We need changes.

I don't see how giving him a Pikachu and a badge quest would make him an Ash clone almost EVERY TRAINER IN THE POKEMON WORLD IS CONNECTED TO THE LEAGUE IN SOME WAY. And you have yet to give me a reason to believe he would be a clone characters are different I given you a bunch of examples of good replacements hell Picard is better than Kirk so why be afraid. Barry's dumb Barry loses give Barry a Pikachu and I'd still watch that show. The difference between badge quests and contest were contests were designed as A MINI GAME the very introduction of contests would be doomed from the start. You failed to give me a solid reason to think he would be a Clone or a rehash.

I agree. IF there IS going to be an Ash replacement, there's a chance he could be fresh - NOT and Ash clone. Yes, every trainer is connected to the League but we could change that as well - make gyms secondary and put contests first. I know it's too late to suggest this, and I've been saying this over and over again - IF THEY REPLACED ASH WITH RUBY, HE'D BE FRESH!! See, Ruby is a trainer far from gyms and leagues - a contest lover yet a competent battler. For god's sake, why do people keep ignoring him?
Also, Gold from the Pokemon Adventures manga was NOT AN ASH CLONE. Heck, he's the typical shounen material, but he didn't go collect gym badges. Rather, he was on a quest of his own AND gym leaders were secondary.

I'd like him to be replaced since really he ended his rope during DP. DP pulled him on using Shinji and kept him fresh but really, I think the dumbing down of Best Wishes saying everything. I don't see the whole 'but the replacement wouldn't be that different arguement' since the anime has shown itself to be great at replacing characters but I see part of it.

Overall, I'm not too sure eitherway.

I'd like though that if Satoshi is replaced that it wouldn't mean the end of old characters coming back. Espcually since seeing older characters interacting with new ones could be more interesting than seeing them interact with Satoshi.

Originally Posted by Madame Pika

I'd like him to be replaced since really he ended his rope during DP.

Agreed. The way I see it Ash's character ended with DP.

If he won the Sinnoh league and challenged the Elite 4 like they foreshadowed I'd be perfectly fine with seeing him go. If BW is any indication he's just being reset for the sake of keeping him around and its terrible.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Agreed. The way I see it Ash's character ended with DP.

If he won the Sinnoh league and challenged the Elite 4 like they foreshadowed I'd be perfectly fine with seeing him go. If BW is any indication he's just being reset for the sake of keeping him around and its terrible.

I still don't think that they foreshadowed Ash challenging the Elite 4. They just made use of fourth generation characters while they were still relevant. While Ash was at his strongest in DP, I don't think he was ready to face the Elite 4. Even with his older Pokemon, I honestly couldn't see him getting pass the first member of the Sinnoh Elite 4 at best. I also don't think that they're resetting him just to keep him around. They've never felt the need to do that before, so I don't think that's exactly why they decided to do that.

Anyway, I don't mind Ash sticking around as the main character. Ash still being around has never really bothered me that much, although I can understand why it bothers other people. He's been around for so long that I doubt that the writers have any interest in replacing him. They've had plenty of chances to do so, including DP if they really wanted to, but not with the Elite 4 challenge theory. It would be more like he just went home and then BW could have focused on a different character. They had one of their best chances due to how far away Unova is from the other regions and the games are so close to being reboots themselves. I don't mind that they didn't do that, despite how I don't like how Ash's skills have been noticeably decreased, but I don't see why the writers would want to get rid of him after nearly fifteen years.

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

I personally think it would suck for Ash to be still doing gyms especially since we don't exactly how the champion league works I always assumed when you win you are part of a group of trainer called the champion league and you can fight each other or the elite 4 for doh why would he pass that up and the difference between Tobias and Solidad there is no elite 4 for contests it doesn't work the same way at all. Hell the only justificatiion for why we even see the battle anymore is because of Ash leaving his Pokemon at Oak's.(Not that a bad thing)

I meant how after battling E4, he could still go to another region trying to win next league. In real life when you win grand slam in tennis you dont stop entering tournaments with there existing better players to catch up with and surpass. In football when you win championship you dont stop competing having to defend title learning from wins and defeats.

Same goes for trainers, in order for someone to be considered best trainer in world its not enough to win one league making you one of best of that specific region but not whole world, with there existing other challenges, stronger trainers and leagues to prove yourself as trainer.

Pokemon is about journey exploring new regions, learning new things, catching new pokemon and growing forward with them with Ash successfully promoting its main message.

I don't see how giving him a Pikachu and a badge quest would make him an Ash clone almost EVERY TRAINER IN THE POKEMON WORLD IS CONNECTED TO THE LEAGUE IN SOME WAY. And you have yet to give me a reason to believe he would be a clone characters are different I given you a bunch of examples of good replacements hell Picard is better than Kirk so why be afraid. Barry's dumb Barry loses give Barry a Pikachu and I'd still watch that show. The difference between badge quests and contest were contests were designed as A MINI GAME the very introduction of contests would be doomed from the start. You failed to give me a solid reason to think he would be a Clone or a rehash.

Yes but we dont see every trainer adventures on screen. If your going to replace one character for someone else doing same quest, same mistakes and having same mascot whats the point behind that? If your going to replace character audience expects something new and different doing different quest , instead of following rehash of what we saw already with basically only new face being tacked on it.

In personality department new character cant have notably different personality than Ash does for very good reason. In majority of kids anime main protagonists fall under typical stereotypical role of shonen male hero. Lets take a look at main face of Bakugan, Naruto, Beyblade, Dragon ball and several other Tv shows . What Goku, Naruto, Dan and several other protagonists have in common with Ash? They are nave,impulsive, tend to be reckless rushing into things without thinking etc because such type of personality is something which attracts kids toward anime associating with such archtype most easily.

With supporting cast and traveling companions writers have liberty in making each distinct enough from each other because they arent driving force of anime with series revolving around them. They arent someone who represents certain show being its main face and icon. With main star its all about having appealing enough character to who small kids could easiest relate to and become attracted toward anime with personality Ash has being proven formula which sells and brings success.

Even if writers replace Ash they wont get rid of working formula so in nutshell whoever comes after Ash wouldnt be much different character wise, he would have same mascot, do same gym quest and do same mistakes being cheap knock of of Ash character.

Not to mention after being in anime for 15 years people are too used to Ash as main mascot being unimaginable for them to picture anime without it,being extremely popular . By taking him out you would effectively get rid of icon with who people associate pokemon series tarnishing its connection, leave many fans angered and shocked, new generations of kids confused with series losing established and worldwide recognized representative. Just to start out completely new show which got rid of all past characters, continuity and everything for which pokemon was known bringing with itself huge risk of people losing interest for revamped anime.

Saying it is not time to end his story because we don't know what a Pokemon master is a nonsensical to me as bring the GS ball into this discussion. We don't need to know exactly what a master is to know that becoming champion is a huge freaking deal. Ash is totally ready to win a league hell he almost beat Tyson and that was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back in Hoenn. And the evidence just keeps piling up especially when you take into accoount that that was just his Sinnoh Pokemon. Before BW Ash was nearly perfect and I still think he is still 100% ethical to the point of being wooden so don't tell me he has a long way to go and expect me to believe you. And based on how much travel and work it takes to do a league it is a perfect way to end the series.

Going by what anime showed so far and what Ash wants to become, it means becoming strongest trainer in world being worldwide recognized and respected. Ash may have showed to be ready to win league but winning one tournament is hardly enough to become best trainer out there with there existing harder challenges, stronger opponents and tasks someone needs to pass in order to become master. In other words being stronger than E4 members, champions and what not.

Writers clearly showed in Sinnoh how Ash still has a lot to learn with easy defeats against Bertha, Flint, Lucian etc proving how he wasnt ready to challenge E4 after DP tournament never being able to defeat even their weakest pokemon let alone trying to confront higher caliber like champions are(such as Cynthia, Lance, Wallace etc) after DP not possessing required knowledge and skill to battle trainers of higher class.

He also showed how he still isnt able to use pokemon to full potential pulling out their true strength on surface connecting with your pokemon on such close level to become united with him. As character Ash tends to over evaluate his abilities being very naive and reckless in DP on several occasions as well regardless of maturity, still making mistakes and having flaws providing material to have character grow forward.

Winning one league wont change much not being enough to give closure to character. From story standpoint Ash isnt developed adequately, nor current situation allows to accomplish something big, significant and imbue character with sense of conclusion. So until Ash comes close toward goal of pokemon master which is whole point behind journey and main purpose in his life,becomes stronger trainer learning how to deal with higher challenges he shouldnt leave.

Current situation in Bw and Ash current skills as trainer doesnt allow him to win league, battle E4 etc without making it look unbelievable and contrived simply not being fleshed out enough to get conclusion.

BW was poorly received. You yourself said you don't this to be the point where Ash leaves because you don't like the way his development is going and the name of the thread where you talk about what you like about BW is Called "What you ACTUALLY like about BW" it has actually in the title that how serious it gotten. And one of the most complaints come from the way they are treaty Ash and that shows they don't know what to do with him anymore. Ash shouldn't leave for the hell of it he should leave because if he doesn't leave soon he may never leave or get good development ever again.

Meaning how with way Ash is currently being treated, proper and good closure isnt possible to establish with character not being experienced, knowledgeable and strong enough for it. Currently Ash isnt ready and fleshed out to required degree to close down his adventures having a lot more to learn .

I would rather have character leave on high note than doing rushed last minute job with it, denying us of proper and satisfying ending after following Ash journey for so long.

Also reason why Ash has been dumb down isnt because of writers not knowing what to do with character. I thought it became obvious by now how main reason behind partial regression(he isnt completely reset contrary to wrongly established belief) is because of BW games having fresh start with anime mirroring those changes. How else to explain Brock leaving after 13 years, TR becoming competent and serous villains, contests being gone, formula going back to one main star , past and references to previous regions and characters reduced to minimum etc. After BW ends things will probably get better depending on what happens in games with anime possibly being filled with more continuity allowing Ash to grow faster as trainer, but currently Unova definitely isnt right time to have him go.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Agreed. The way I see it Ash's character ended with DP.

So BW Ash isnt anymore same character? Aside from being a bit regressed there isnt much difference with Ash whether some may like it or not having potential to be done more not reaching his maximum.

No. If Ash was replaced, there would just be another boy we would have to get used to. The writers aren't going to have him win a league or give him any special treatment unless he was older and had more experience. But then I would think it would be a troll seeing how they never had Ash age a day in his life and then they would finally decide to let an older boy do what he couldn't. I don't think I want to see that unless it's a special or something.

I think he should be replaced, and I really think the character should be FEMALE and be a CONTESTANT, like they did with so many of the companions. In BW, I wouldn't have thought that Cilan the idiot would travel with Ash anyway.
And, (warning, change of subject) I don't like the idea of Cilan even being the conniseur (I spelled THAT wrong) of so many things. You just get confused...
Back to Ash:
He should be replaced with someone inbetween an Ash clone and someone with brains and no hat to worry about XD. In fact, who even thought of his Kanto hat being a contest postcard thing hat? That was one of the weirdest episodes I watched (besides the one where Ash dresses up like a giant apple to get a Snorlax's attention).
My idea of her appearance (*fanfare*):
Deep green hair (like Cilan's shade, but a lot darker) in a long braid or ponytail
A mini dress like Dawn's, but instead of pink she's wearing green, and it doesn't look like she's trying to show off her underwear
cute green laced high-tops the same shade as her hair
light blue eyes, with the shape of Dawn's
That's how I picture her. A little Pokemon/episode idea:
Her companion is a female, glassy eyed Snivy that's always wrapped around her neck like a scarf.
On the first episode (Unova region, picture Unova region), she (ideas for name?) gets a Snivy. It looks back longingly at professor Juniper, but she just urges it on. As the Snivy reaches it's new trainer's feet, it takes one longing look at the professor, then returns to it's pokeball. Professor Juniper waves her on her way, and the trainer starts her adventure. Her Snivy keeps popping back out of it's pokeball and tries to flee back to town, but the trainer always calls it back before it gets far. After the fifth time of this happening, she sighs and starts her trip to the next town.
TA-DAH.

Now, I've put more thought into it, I'm still not sure.

On the replacing hand, Satoshi's terrible Best Wishes personality comes from more than typical Best Wishes writing and shows alot of staleness. His lose is skill level also implies that the writers are welling to scape below the bottom of the barrol to continue Satoshi on, despite the fact that a more mature Satoshi would be more likely to have more interesting interaction with the Black and White characters (especually in the Plasma dan arc [which back at the start was going to happen]). I think even his interaction with Best Wishes characters would have been better.

On the other hand, I really don't want Best Wishes to Satoshi's final series. He might be one of the less constantly entertaining characters but for what he has given us I think he diserves better and it's too late for him to go with grace (say at the end of DP).