Thread: Do you like Cilan/Dent's role in BW?

I think its fair to say that almost everybody prefers Brock, But if I wasent going to compare him to anyone, I'd say he is a good character. Im glad that he has recently had an episode focusing on him, I like him best with episodes that focus on him.

Originally Posted by mwetwe

I think its fair to say that almost everybody prefers Brock, But if I wasent going to compare him to anyone, I'd say he is a good character. Im glad that he has recently had an episode focusing on him, I like him best with episodes that focus on him.

Where on earth did you get that idea from? A large chunk of the fandom prefers him over Brock.

I am neutral myself since I like both for different reasons, but I do hope Cilan leaves when BW ends for simplicity sake.

I like Cilan's role in BW. He's a fun and really likable character for me. He fits the whole mentor/older figure of the group role quite nicely, while also standing out in a unique way. I also like his relationship with Ash since they bounce off of each other really well and that makes their friendship more believable. He's easily one of the highlights of the series thus far for me. I'm not sure if I prefer him over Brock since I also like the both of them for different reasons, but I think that Cilan's role in BW is handled well enough for me. I'd prefer it if his Pokemon didn't learn moves off-screen though.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Originally Posted by mwetwe

I think its fair to say that almost everybody prefers Brock, But if I wasent going to compare him to anyone, I'd say he is a good character. Im glad that he has recently had an episode focusing on him, I like him best with episodes that focus on him.

Where on earth did you get that idea from? A large chunk of the fandom prefers him over Brock.

I am neutral myself since I like both for different reasons, but I do hope Cilan leaves when BW ends for simplicity sake.

Most people I have talked to and know much prefer Brock, thats why I said that. Also many of the posts that compare Brock and Cilan on this topic, pick Brock

Im not denying at all that a large part of the fandom prefer Cilan but I find that the majority prefer Brock.

There is definately factors in Cilan that are better than Brock, but I agree with you about how he probably needs to go at the end of the series.

I always loved Cilan's role on the show. He's funny and keeps things interesting but does anyone else including me feel that he has been ignored in the training department lately? I used to remember back close to Nimbasa city where Cilan and Ash used to be battling and stuff together, now he seems only used for crazy antics and other stuff. I want that balance between all the characters and not just one at a time. Can't they do it like they used to?

@Hellion; Moving it here since it's about Dent <3 only

Originally Posted by Hellion

Not everyone is a prop for Dent in his episodes, no more than in Satoshi episodes. Take the Pod episode for example, Dent beats Pod, but Pod beats Satoshi, whom Dent praises as being the inspiration for the tips he's giving Pod. Everyone's made to look good.

Originally Posted by Hellion

That's a good example of an episode that was written with addressing Dent's backstory and developing the whole sommelier thing, but didn't do it at the expense of anyone else.

Your argument here falls apart when Satoshi was downgraded in his battle against Pod. When Baoppu used SolarBeam on Mijumaru to defeat him, Satoshi didn't command Mijumaru to protect itself with its scalchop like how he told him to do against Dent's Yanappu in their gym battle. They basically removed the existence of the strategy just so Pod could have gotten a win. Satoshi tells Mijumaru to dodge the attack instead of deflecting it with the scalchop it held with its hand and instead just stands there, waiting to take the attack. Resulting in Pod getting a cheap win to glorify him when Satoshi already had the knowledge and strategy to beat him and deflect his attacks, and for Dent to lose the entire purpose he even travelled with Satoshi. If I recall correctly, Dent was mostly impressed by Satoshi's strategy and battling style in their gym battle through how he used Mijumaru's scalchop to deflect the attacks. Dent taught Pod about possibly doing such a thing in his battles, conveyed by making his Boappu use Flame Punch on Mijumaru while it was using Aqua Jet to deflect the attack and gain no damage. Satoshi doesn't do such thing when he could've here.

That isn't the only instance. In Luke's debut episode, when Dent goes all Movie Sommelier, Satoshi has trouble saying his first lines due to him not having any confidence(IIRC), a problem that he didn't have in the previous movies he worked on(if he did, it was solved then). Dent is made to look good by solving a problem Satoshi had already developed through in the past.

After being with Pokemon since it started, I must say Dent is a main reason I'm even involved with Pokemon anymore. This show went down-slope until Dent was added. I personally love his appearance, personality, and character in general. He is Classy and acts as both Comic-Relief and as a Guide. Let's not forget how Sexy he is, too. Anyway, yes I think he is very important to this show and is my favorite character.

All right, Dento is probably my favorite character on the main cast right now. I was never very fond of Takeshi, and his replacement was, in my opinion, long overdue. Dento is very fun to watch, and I adore his personality. He's the only comic relief character I actually find funny, especially his interaction with Hikari during her brief return to the show. At first I thought his motto, "it's tasting time!" was a bit weird, but as time went on I sort of got used to it. Dento is one of the main reasons I haven't dropped out of watching the anime altogether, and I wish he got more screentime. The only thing I dislike is his taste in Pokemon (Stunfisk and Crustle, rly? :I) and the fact that he hasn't actually done much - all right, so he's a Pokemon Sommelier, but I don't know what he's actually trying to accomplish since he's already an A-class Sommelier and... he can't really improve on that very much. Overall, though, he is a fresh and interesting character and I do enjoy his role in Best Wishes.

Plus, who can resist his adorable sparkles?

Originally Posted by Human

Your entire argument falls apart when Satoshi was downgraded in his battle against Pod. When Baoppu used SolarBeam on Mijumaru to defeat him, Satoshi didn't command Mijumaru to protect itself with its scalchop like how he told him to do against Dent's Yanappu in their gym battle.

Losing a match doesn't mean that Satoshi was downgraded. He put up a good fight, and the episode not only has Dent praise Satoshi and state that he was only able to help Pod through what he learned from Satoshi, but has Dent and Iris commenting on how in synch with his Pokémon Satoshi is in the beginning. Satoshi couldn't use the same strategy against Pod that he used against Dent because, as the episode pointed out, they're two totally different battlers. Pod's Baoppu had raised its speed through Flame Charge and Mijumaru was right next to him due to Satoshi calling for a battle in close range. Basically, Baoppu was quicker and ready to take a hit, which isn't the challenge that Yanappu presented since he's more about range combat and not taking a hit. But in the episode itself, you never get the feeling that Dent or Pod are the sole competent people there. Each of them is shown to be flawed and is shown to have some good qualities as well. Dent admits that his approach to battle was wrong and that he's learning a lot from Satoshi. They both grow/have grown a lot during/prior to this episode to the point where they're able to take on a trainer that's as strong as Satoshi and win. You never feel like other characters are solely there to sing the praises of a character. Iris and Pod were both shown at times to question Dent's advice, having him explain his views further.

In Luke's debut episode, where Dent goes all Movie Sommelier, Satoshi has trouble saying his first lines due to him not having any confidence(IIRC), a problem that he didn't have in the previous movies he worked on(if he did, it was solved then). Dent is made to look good by solving a problem Satoshi had already developed through in the past.

That one actually has some precedent. Satoshi has no problems being himself in battles or when talking about battles, but when he's taken outside of his element and interview or asked to play a character, he's rather awkward at it. That's not throwing Satoshi under the bus, cause the episode actually had him get much better and do a good job in his own right.

The common thing about both episodes is that characters other than Dent got to play their part, got to bring their own expertise, their own story, their own contribution to the plot, unlike Kairyu's debut where everyone was downgraded and did nothing but talk about how great Iris was and how utterly useless they were to help her. Satoshi might have been shown to do some mistakes, or have some flaws (which in the movie episode's case actually made him quite endearing), but it balanced it out by showing him in a positive light, being skilled, being knowledgeable, etc. There's a balance there that lacked in Kairyu's debut.

i love cilan! he's one of my main reasons for watching bw/2. (:
he's amusing, but never in an "oh god it's the comic relief again" way. he has great interactions with the other characters (iris in particular, whenever he goes all "tasting time"). overall he just has a very fun, refreshing personality. i'm glad they finally retired brock - it's not as if i disliked him, but he was a never a favorite of mine either, and i felt like he had less and less of a meaningful role as time went on.

on the downside though: cilan doesn't seem to have much of a reason for travelling with ash? like some people in this thread have mentioned, he's already an excellent sommelier, and a gym leader to boot... maybe deep down he just wanted to travel and was looking for the right opportunity?
and i'm occasionally disappointed at how weak he can be in battles. he does win, sure, but every once in while he loses to opponents that, as a gym leader, he shouldn't (IMO). and his pokemon team is... lacking, to say the least. give him at least one more grass pokemon! lilligant, or maybe whimsicott, or... something. anything! D:

Originally Posted by Hellion

Losing a match doesn't mean that Satoshi was downgraded.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not say or imply that. As you have just said, Satoshi losing a match does not mean that he was downgraded. It's extremely unrealistic for a trainer/coordinator to come up with a strategy all the time. In BW006, Satoshi had the strategy, the knowledge and skill to win against Pokemon who used SolarBeam against Oshawott with his scalchop, and yet the strategy that could have made him at least last longer in the battle is ignored.

Originally Posted by Hellion

He put up a good fight, and the episode not only has Dent praise Satoshi and state that he was only able to help Pod through what he learned from Satoshi, but has Dent and Iris commenting on how in synch with his Pokémon Satoshi is in the beginning.

Which gets badly conveyed when Satoshi's strategy with Mijumaru's scalchop to deflect SolarBeam is ignored. Dent was interested in travelling with Satoshi to learn from him because of that particular and unique strategy. It gets flushed down the toilet here, making me wonder why Dent was even complimenting Satoshi in the first place. Satoshi was portrayed to be the aggressive one in his battle. Pod is shown to take Dent's advice to be defensive with his aggression as evidenced by ordering his Baoppu using Flame Punch on Mijumaru while it was using Aqua Jet. Pod asked Satoshi to use Mijumaru so he could deflect its Water-type attacks with his Baoppu, and when Mijumaru gets the chance to deflect SolarBeam, a Grass-type move that is effective on Mijumaru because of its type disadvantage, Satoshi tells him to dodge instead of trying to deflect it.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Satoshi couldn't use the same strategy against Pod that he used against Dent because, as the episode pointed out, they're two totally different battlers.

Being different battlers is not an excuse for Satoshi to not use the same strategy.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Pod's Baoppu had raised its speed through Flame Charge and Mijumaru was right next to him due to Satoshi calling for a battle in close range. Basically, Baoppu was quicker and ready to take a hit, which isn't the challenge that Yanappu presented since he's more about range combat and not taking a hit.

The only way I could have accepted Pod and his Baoppu winning that way was if Satoshi told Mijumaru to deflect the attack with its scalchop, only for Baoppu's SolarBeam to hit it before it got the chance to deflect.

Originally Posted by Hellion

But in the episode itself, you never get the feeling that Dent or Pod are the sole competent people there. Each of them is shown to be flawed and is shown to have some good qualities as well. Dent admits that his approach to battle was wrong and that he's learning a lot from Satoshi. They both grow/have grown a lot during/prior to this episode to the point where they're able to take on a trainer that's as strong as Satoshi and win. You never feel like other characters are solely there to sing the praises of a character. Iris and Pod were both shown at times to question Dent's advice, having him explain his views further.

I felt like as if they were with Satoshi's sudden downgrade. I'm guessing that you're saying this to say that Iris is shown to be the only competent person in her episodes unlike Dent, to which I disagree a lot.

Originally Posted by Hellion

That one actually has some precedent. Satoshi has no problems being himself in battles or when talking about battles, but when he's taken outside of his element and interview or asked to play a character, he's rather awkward at it. That's not throwing Satoshi under the bus, cause the episode actually had him get much better and do a good job in his own right.

What does Satoshi's annoyance with Cilan in BW006 :PP people ganging up on him have to do with his sudden confidence issues here?

Originally Posted by Hellion

The common thing about both episodes is that characters other than Dent got to play their part, got to bring their own expertise, their own story, their own contribution to the plot, unlike Kairyu's debut where everyone was downgraded and did nothing but talk about how great Iris was and how utterly useless they were to help her. Satoshi might have been shown to do some mistakes, or have some flaws (which in the movie episode's case actually made him quite endearing), but it balanced it out by showing him in a positive light, being skilled, being knowledgeable, etc. There's a balance there that lacked in Kairyu's debut.

The balance was in Kairyu's debut(minus the brining in their own story because it had no relevance).

I'll carry this part to the Iris thread then.

Evaluation Time!

Its fair to say that Cilan adds a certain sweet and spicy flavor to the show!

He's cute and a bit over - dramatic, adding more to his cuteness.

Originally Posted by Human

In BW006, Satoshi had the strategy, the knowledge and skill to win against Pokemon who used SolarBeam against Oshawott with his scalchop, and yet the strategy that could have made him at least last longer in the battle is ignored.

Wow, you're really making a mountain out of a mole hill here. That strategy has never been proven to be infallible. Oshawott's deflecting incoming attacks has failed him in the same battle in BW006 right after succeeding, it failed him against Kenyan, it's not the be all end all of strategies. The same goes for Cabernet's Futachimaru, when the scalchop receives too big of an impact, it's not able to absorb. Baoppu was faster than Yanappu in this battle and had his Solarbeam strengthened by his anger. It's not a dumb move to ask your Pokémon to dodge an attack when you don't know if they'll be able to block it. Either way, he was trying to minimize the damage and it failed.

Was the episode designed to show how far Dent progressed and to give some focus and fleshing out to Pod? Absolutely. Did the episode use Satoshi's battle with Pod as a means to an end to show Dent's progress and to resolve the conflict with Pod? Absolutely. Did the episode still went out of its way to show some strength and skill in Satoshi. Totally. Of course they made Satoshi lose on purpose, but they made sure to really keep his personality intact, have other characters talk about his good points and still put up a good fight, in short, to still portray him as a trainer, on his own quest, having some qualities, having some flaws, that could help make the storyline that was built on solid foundations progress. He's not Dent's puppet or Pod's puppet, he's a character in his own right.

What does Satoshi's annoyance with Cilan in BW006 :PP people ganging up on him have to do with his sudden confidence issues here?

Satoshi playing a part has generally made him uncomfortable, being disguised and having to act. But, let me ask you a question: does Satoshi's confidence issues here work against him in this episode? No, his nervousness and how he overcomes it is actually very endearing, he's the one to deal with the Rockets, he displays skills and gets better at acting throughout the episode. He gets focus and actually feels like the plot of that episode is more about him than it is about Dent. I fail to see how it's all about Dent.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Wow, you're really making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Excuse me for wanting the show to have properly conveyed morals :p

Originally Posted by Hellion

That strategy has never been proven to be infallible. Oshawott's deflecting incoming attacks has failed him in the same battle in BW006 right after succeeding, it failed him against Kenyan, it's not the be all end all of strategies.

Said strategy only failed when the scalchop wasn't in Mijumaru's possession due to it being removed with a physical move like Double Kick. The strategy failed with Kenyan because it was the stone scalchop Dento's Ishiuzamai made, not the same shell scalchop. In the battle with Pod, Mijumaru was holding it with his right hand. He could've blocked it, he could've evaded it, and yet he just stands there, completely forgetting that he had the chance to block it like in BW006 and to evade it with the new level of speed BW028(and Shimama even used Nitro Charge in that battle too, with Mijumaru winning in the end without the scalchop). You might now tell me that he was too scared to do such thing. If so, then why did he still counter Yanappu's SolarBeam even after being scared?

Originally Posted by Hellion

The same goes for Cabernet's Futachimaru, when the scalchop receives too big of an impact, it's not able to absorb.

I know that, but SolarBeam and Drill Liner are two completely different moves that have different power, shape and form.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Baoppu was faster than Yanappu in this battle and had his Solarbeam strengthened by his anger.

Even though I do agree that the anger and determination of a Pokemon increases the chances of winning in a performance, it did not get conveyed well here when Mijumaru's development in BW028(increase in speed) and BW006(Scalchop being used for defence) is completely ignored just so Pod could get a win when he could have gotten the same win countering Mijumaru's power and strategy. and now that you have mentioned BW028 I now think that Mijumaru not doing anything is even worse

Originally Posted by Hellion

It's not a dumb move to ask your Pokémon to dodge an attack when you don't know if they'll be able to block it. Either way, he was trying to minimize the damage and it failed.

I believe he could have since the move didn't look to be any more powerful or faster than when Yanapuu used it in BW006. Mijumaru here, who had trained and became faster as evidenced in BW016 and BW028, had the power, the speed, the strength and the ability to dodge the move, but instead stands there, waiting to take the attack so Pod could win.

Originally Posted by Hellion

Was the episode designed to show how far Dent progressed and to give some focus and fleshing out to Pod? Absolutely. Did the episode use Satoshi's battle with Pod as a means to an end to show Dent's progress and to resolve the conflict with Pod? Absolutely. Did the episode still went out of its way to show some strength and skill in Satoshi. Totally. Of course they made Satoshi lose on purpose, but they made sure to really keep his personality intact, have other characters talk about his good points and still put up a good fight, in short, to still portray him as a trainer, on his own quest, having some qualities, having some flaws, that could help make the storyline that was built on solid foundations progress. He's not Dent's puppet or Pod's puppet, he's a character in his own right.

Which is the exact same thing I feel with Iris episodes. For example, in the Emmy episode, Satoshi and Emmy fought off the rockets not Iris and he also helped Emmy to try to connect with her Crimgan by battling it with his Pokabu not Iris. To say he hasn't contributed anything in her episodes or that he's Iris' puppet is taking the context, twisting it and exaggerating it to go how you want it to be to feed your stigma to hate on Iris, making you make many logical fallacies. btw I don't hate Dento, I actually like him a lot

Originally Posted by Hellion

Satoshi playing a part has generally made him uncomfortable,

Satoshi never had a problem acting like the rockets: Team Rocket imitated motto - YouTube

Though, to be fair, he knew their act well. But again, he had no problem acting before and that isn't the only time.

Originally Posted by Hellion

being disguised

Being disguised as a girl to get into Erika's gym made him uncomfortable for dressing up like a girl. Here Satoshi doesn't have any problems with what he's wearing that it's making him feel embarrassed, annoyed, lack confidence and have trouble delivering his lines, so I don't see what you're even trying to say.

Originally Posted by Hellion

and having to act.

Nope.

Originally Posted by Hellion

But, let me ask you a question: does Satoshi's confidence issues here work against him in this episode? No, his nervousness and how he overcomes it is actually very endearing,

Which reminds me how terrible the resolution to the problem was.

Satoshi: I HAVE A PROBLEM THAT I NEVER HAD BEFORE WHENEVER I ACTED!
Dent: I SHALL CURE YOU! (with tips)

poof

Pointless problem that shouldn't have been a problem in the first place solved. The only thing that Satoshi learned was the improvisation when the rockets attacked.

Originally Posted by Hellion

he's the one to deal with the Rockets, he displays skills and gets better at acting throughout the episode.

Yeah he deals with them. Yeah he displays his skills. Gets better at acting? I didn't feel any progression in his acting other than that improvisation thing Dent told him.

Originally Posted by Hellion

He gets focus and actually feels like the plot of that episode is more about him than it is about Dent. I fail to see how it's all about Dent.

Yeah, but that episode clearly wasn't solely focusing on him. I don't even think I said, implied, or wanted you to think that it was all about him in the movie episode or the Pod episode. You're putting words in my mouth again. People get to play other parts in Iris episodes as well(who she doesn't downgrade), so I really fail to see your point.

EDIT: I was checking some earlier review threads and found this:

Originally Posted by Hellion

Originally Posted by Lafayette Excadrill

Ash has never been on stage before, so I think it's understandable we see his stage fright. Since you know, it is his first time.

Except for you... know... that it's not his first time being in a movie. He's been so in the past, or other acting jobs and was fine with it. And hey... all those Leagues... he's sorta use to the big stages. XD

The only time he was shown to be nervous about something was when Mary interviewed him all the way back in Johto and she showed him how to get past that, and he was fine when it was time to replace the cast of a radio show afterwards.

Source: BW 038 "Zorua The Movie! The Legend of the Pokémon Knight!!" Review Thread

So you yourself admit that it shouldn't have been a problem in the first place. This was over a year ago so your viewpoint might have changed.

Originally Posted by Human

Excuse me for wanting the show to have properly conveyed morals :p

Which this episode did. Work hard, be true to yourself, follow your own path and you'll succeed. But, seeing as you consider the BW089 moral "Don't do shit and be better than everybody around you who work hard and reduce them to hapless dimwits whose sole purpose is to sing your praises" to be properly conveyed...

Said strategy only failed when the scalchop wasn't in Mijumaru's possession due to it being removed with a physical move like Double Kick.

No, not it BW006 when it was knocked out by Bullet Seed, not in BW020 when it was knocked out by Scald. The scalchop has never been portrayed as an infallible strategy. Scalchop isn't magic, it's working about 50/50 percent of the time to begin with, much like dodging.

Mijumaru's development in BW028(increase in speed) and BW006(Scalchop being used for defence) is completely ignored just so Pod could get a win when he could have gotten the same win countering Mijumaru's power and strategy.

Mijumaru was actually being portrayed as being fast, at least faster than he was in the beginning of this episode, repeatedly attacking Baoppu, in the battle Satoshi was still shown to be able to think on his feet and turn his Pokémon getting hit into an Aqua Jet counterattack. It's not like it's dumb to tell your Pokémon to dodge an attack, it doesn't make Satoshi a bad trainer, a helpless trainer, a weak trainer. The point of the episode was to showcase how far Dent and Pod had come so of course he's gonna win, but we actually saw Pod do wrong, make mistakes, learn from them, work hard, get better and earn that win. That Satoshi didn't order a block and instead ordered a dodge is splitting hairs, it doesn't change that it was a really compelling episode and showcased someone struggling, working for their achievements.

Yeah, but that episode clearly wasn't solely focused on him.

No, it was focusing on Luke and the gang helping him with his movie. Satoshi doesn't have every talent and one of his talents his battling, he feels in his element doing so. But whenever he's outside of that element he's less confidant as shown with the radio show (only when he pictured himself battling did he get over it) and he's occasionally shown to have bad memory. I do remember feeling like it didn't make sense on the spot, but remembering the earlier series, I can't say I feel this episode really had Satoshi completely out of character, but yes, they accentuated parts of his personality in order to give Satoshi an important place in the episode, to make him become better and have his day in the spotlight if you will. It's not like he was totally sidelined, shown to be completely useless and only speak to claim how much Luke and Dent are the salt of the Earth.

Not only that, but if we look at how Dent is generally portrayed, more than half of the time, he's a joke. While in certain areas he's talented, in others he's hopeless. He's been made to lose to make other characters look good, to add tensions to future battles (like Satoshi v Fuuro), etc. Yes, his focus episodes do show him in a good light (gasp), but also leave some room for other characters to leave their mark.