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Originally Posted by
Alfonso 
Okay, so Misty was popular. I'm not disputing that, so were all the characters back then - it was Pokemon in the height of its fad! It's not exactly an impressive feat to be "popular" and "accepted" when there are no alternatives or prior expectations to live up to.
Im not talking in past tense. Even after May, Dawn and several other characters, she still remained one of most popular characters this show ever had and fact that out of all replaced companions biggest demand is for her return says a lot.
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How in the world was she complex? "Tough girl with a softer side that softens up over time" isn't complex, it's a character archetype. Let's be honest here for a second, we all enjoy Pokemon but it's not exactly a masterpiece or a shining example of excellent writing or characteri
She was also known for being deep romantic, used to be quite timid, showed to be very girly in several occasions(liking to try out dresses, perfumes and flirt with boys as evidenced with Danny or Rudy in OI) and had nurture side being very caring not being your typical hotheaded and hostile character.
Many people from what i noticed draw comparisons between Misty and kuudere type of character and how there exist arguably some similarity.
She had tendency to express what she feels not being afraid to speak out her mind at same time having trouble to put across what she wanted, having to work hard for everything she accomplished.
Her character often offered insight in her own personal problems and struggle through which she was going through(like her fear from Gyarados, lack of self esteem etc)still showing presence of personal issues which stand on her way of achieving her dreams.
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I really hope you're not one of those people who thinks she did that on purpose in order to motivate Ash.
Whether she done that on purpose or not is irrelevant, because her actions indirectly helped Ash to try harder in order to pass gym test, and fact that she was rooting for him to win shows how all those flirting with Danny and how capable he was, was obvious playing around.
There were several cases where she argued with Ash or tried to prove her point of being better trainer which served as boost for Ash to do his best, with every battle they had containing rivalry helping his growth as trainer.
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If you check my post again you'll see that I wasn't talking about the other girls. I actually said:
But since premise behind your post was directed toward girls in general trying to portray them as "better"than Misty was, i figured out it would be best to focus solely on girls than and explain why Misty wasn't any worse as character with each female protagonists having their qualities, but bad sides as well.
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I'm not sure how you took "all of the cast" as "the other girls". The point I was making is that helping people out either emotionally or if they are in danger is pretty much what Ash and co. do on a regular basis. The main gist of countless episodes of Pokemon is that they find someone or something in trouble and stick about to help them out. Misty isn't unique in that fact.
I will agree that she put herself at risk in a number of situations, but so did Ash. It's part of the deal of being a hero in a kid's show.
Except we are not talking about Ash and co in here, but Misty and her worth as character toward this show being more of straight forward who doesn't cares about what other people think about her, who is brave enough to follow her dreams and goals and isn't afraid to say what she wants. She was known for intelligence usually recognizing TR under disguise, solving clues or several various issues under which group was put in, for quick thinking under pressured situations acting accordingly to it always standing out for others even if it involves sacrificing her own life. She was hotheaded and tomboyish, but also tender and sensitive not needing to sacrifice her feminine side to succeed as character developing more traits as time went gaining dash of nurture and mother traits later on.
Her past wasn't easy for her either having to grow without parents and put up with her older sisters and their popularity and talent. All of this left big mark and caused complex of inferiority feeling how she isn't good as they are constantly wanting to prove herself to others. As we get to see Misty started out as temperament girl with rough attitude being one of ways to cover up insecurity gradually developing as character over time learning how to become better as person in general and more confident , opening herself more to Ash and Brock valuing their friendship to point of starting to call them her "new family".
Things which are unique to Misty was fact of being only character in main cast who specialized in one type, had different sides of personality to her not being your typical tsundere(at least not past early Kanto that is)being intelligent as person and good at reading people minds giving her enough stamina to support things on her own .
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I think you are overestimating the importance of The Whirl Cup. While it's certainly a step in the right direction for any trainer specialising in Water type Pokemon, it's just one competition. Winning it doesn't make you a Water Pokemon Master, especially considering that it had zero entry requirements other than "own a Water Pokemon". If Ash had won, would have have made him a Water Pokemon Master by default?
As it stands, "Water Pokemon Master" was a vague concept that served only as an introduction line from Misty to new people she met. Entering a handful of competitions didn't really advance that goal that much and were pretty much forgotten about as soon as they were finished. That includes the Whirl Cup.
Except it was factually stated how Whirl Cup is connected with water master dream. In "Around the Whirlpool"when they met prof. Elm he explained direct connection between said competition and water master thing, later on in opening ceremony in "Dueling Heroes" sea priestess further elaborating on whole master of water types thing.
No one ever said how winning one water tournament makes you water master, but writers displayed with it how its one of several tasks someone needs to enter and win in order to gain title Misty strive for. Only reason why we didn't see expansion on it with new grounds being break was because Misty left cast.
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She should have spent more time actually training her Pokemon. Half of the time all we saw was the same old Water Gun or Tackle. Why did we never see her attempt to better her Pokemon and have them learn more exotic techniques? She had a primary candidate in Psyduck as a Pokemon she could have spent some real time improving, but she always seemed to give up incredbily quickly.
To be fair in first generation there wasn't so many available moves for water types and every type in general being pretty limited, until future game sequels provided better variety and pallet of techniques, For same reason Ash grass pokemon mostly used razor leaf and vine whip spam, fire types flamethrower, Squirtle or Totodile water gun or at best hydro pump until writers stated with Hoenn and onwards to enrich pokemon move set.
However there were several moves Misty pokemon used during her run with writers started to enrich their move set with more diverse techniques in Johto and lesser extent OI. Like Goldeen using supersonic or horn drill, Staryu double edge, swift or rapid spin. Poliwhirl used bubble beam, double team or swagger as Politoad. Perhaps biggest step forward can be noticed with Corsola which due to half rock brought more diversity to her team using spike cannon, recover or mirror coat being step forward from moves we used to saw in past.
Misty tried to train her pokemon several times as we can see with Togepi or Psyduck and there were provided references how she trains her pokemon of screen(more obedient ones). Such as Staryu with Marina or Sakura commenting on their battling abilities and how she trained them well, when she asked for sparring match Marcellus in "Octillery the Outcast" to give more training to her Corsola, when mentioning in episodes past Whirl Cup how thanks to intense training Corsola went through she was able to come to quarterfinals in Whirl Cup etc.
Misty trained her pokemon, but thanks to poor writing at that time and insufficient amount of focus it usually wasn't showed on screen. Every series suffered from this issue, except DP where writers were fairly detailed in that field to the point of exaggerating.
As for giving up quickly, this is one of character flaws which was never dealt with, being roadblock on her venture of becoming master of water types. Yes we all know Misty wasn't used to full potential as character, which is pity because there could have been done much more.
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No, I've seen a fair number of the older episodes (Kanto/OI/Johto) quite recently and I'm currently watching through Kanto again. I can see what you're trying to do however - suggest that my memory is playing up and Misty actually remained incredibly interesting throughout her time in the series.
Than you can notice how Misty did several interesting things in OI and Johto as well, having good dynamic with Ash and Brock as well several great interactions with various characters like Marina, Sakura, Egan, Dorian, Andreas and many more. She brought lighthearted humor to cast, clash, sarcasm and in general enjoyable interactions. If it wasn't interesting to you, than i guess you have different criteria on what you consider funny and enjoyable to watch.
Perhaps her personality didn't get to you in first place, with occasional slapstick humor being only thing which you found amusing.
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I think you're adding too much of a positive spin to her "development", although I'm glad we're on the same page in regards to her temper cooling down. While I think it's a bad thing and see it as her becoming dull, you see it as her becoming "mature".
In this case it was positive thing because development provided her with more substance which is never a bad thing because it gives more depth to someone enriching his personality and adding to appeal. Change is necessary because if character don't develop they start to stagnate(like poor Brock) becoming eventually boring. Because of growth Misty became better battler which brought more interesting battles from sub par performance we had opportunity to watch in Kanto. Because of maturity we saw character becoming independent enough to overcome feeling inferior compared to Daisy and others which allowed for quality and enjoyable interaction with characters like Sakura which dealt with same issue, Dorian, Mikey from Kanto etc.
I remember Misty was still full of competitive streak having that fire in her whenever she battled or entered tournaments of some sort(like when entering Whirl Cup,battling Ash,Andreas,Marina etc),we can see her dedication and passionate love toward water types and their training which can be noticed in way she bonded with wild Marill in "For Crying Out Loud"(you should watch that episode, it really had some great development for Misty as character and water trainer),having several attempts of trying to catch various pokemon like Corsola,Quagsire,Chinchau etc. She was still playful and sarcastic liking to tease and provoke Brock about girls and Ash about his training style and naivety along with several other various characters. She still had her quirks and fears from Gyarados and bugs,she was still romantic liking to give advices about it while falling herself for various cute pokemon etc.
We can still see her hotheaded side arguing and being very stubborn wanting to do things her own way.
Only difference is violence being toned down,with further development being followed with hosos and cameos in AG portraying her character as more responsible and self reliant.
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Did we really want to see a more mature and level headed Misty, though? Part of her charm was that she was rough around the edges and abrasive - when she lost that, she didn't really have much of a character to speak of. She went from being a tangy, spicy sauce to mayonaise.
She transferred in spicy mayo so to speak, with added doze of chilli into it.
That was only one trait and hardly that much special part of character either when it was showed how to her there exist much more than typical stereotype female on pms which is bursting on everyone left and right. Her arguing with Ash and constant complaining about bike started to honestly get old through mid Kanto and it was refreshing and nice to see different sides of Misty personality explored more. We saw expansion on her other personality traits which were often overshadowed by temper having much more to her than just going on rampage.We saw more of her sarcasm,girly side, passionate love and dedication toward battling and water types,spunk,her witty and timid side etc becoming fairly rounded character feeling more genuine and realistic.
Temper never disappeared either, it only burst out on surface less often even in chronicles after departure showing to be able to explode when provoked trying to put herself under control which was kinda amusing to watch too.
I have to say i liked Misty equally both before and now having nice blend of spunky and playful yet more mature personality giving extra note to character. For same reason i enjoyed in Ash growth being finally able to take mentor role to others not needing babysitters on his side in Hoenn, or when May grew from ditzy and insecure character into more self esteem filled and strong character standing on her own ground.
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Perhaps that is the problem with character development in Pokemon - "maturing" seems to be the only option. Wouldn't it have been fair more interesting if Ash had become more abrasive and cocky to go with his new tan and fairly good placing in the Johto League? They would never do that as he's the hero of a kid's show (Other than the token "character needs to be knocked down a peg or two" episodes.) but it's interesting prospect.
It follows basic principle which happens in real life with most people maturing over time as they grow up becoming more responsible, independent ready to leave parents nest and civilized. However by all means just because character matures doesn't mean he can't be quirky and enjoyable to watch with Misty having great interactions and bonding with several characters and pokemon, intriguing play of with Daisy, Tracey or Sakura in hosos , enjoyable dynamic with Max when helping him about issues with older sister having things in common coming of as more outgoing and playful in Ag cameos while still having her brash side, and tougher battler as well with gain of Gyarados being step forward.
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Since it's been thrown at me, allow me to throw it back. Subjective.
Like i said its matter of personal taste. Its impossible that everyone have same criteria of what they will find interesting or not. Being pointless in first place to debate if Misty is intriguing character or not, when every individual has different perception of what he will find funny and amusing to watch.
All i know is that she had a lot of personality after maturing with there being several amusing things about her, than just smacking someone down(which was stopped somewhere right before Indigo league)staying feisty and snarky with violence being toned down. I see no problem with that(Jessie stopped being violent so much with time too)
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Sounds like a fairly throw away scene with little to no implication on the plot or any of her further interactions with Staryu. It wasn't exactly the most deep human/Pokemon relationship, let's face it.
You asked for scene where it was revealed close bond between trainer and pokemon, so i gave it to you. Im sure there were some other scenes too, but you can surely understand how i don't remember all episodes where Staryu was used, with his design in itself making it very hard to portray properly pokemon emotions.
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In leaving the gym she gained her independance from her sisters who, as you've said previously in this thread, cast a fairly large shadow. She was able to return a more "mature and level-headed individual" who was more suited to being the Gym Leader than she was when she left. If I put more stock into the writers, I'd say that that was the eventual goal of her character development.
That issue was solved long ago before Misty returned to gym being treated more like flaw which is standing on Misty way of achieving her goal of becoming water pokemon master than anything else. Considering how it caused insecurity and reliance on Ash and friends help, not being sure if she has enough strength to succeed on her own. Main dream was to master water types with ex head writer mr. Shudo himself stating in his blog how he didn't do with character what was originally planned regretting that more attention and development wasn't put in her story.
Gym was used as last minute excuse/plotline to have Misty removed from cast to make room for May with writers not being able to com up with better exit since they didn't fleshed out her plots enough to go from point A to point B leaving it unresolved.
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I would agree with your point about her travelling, but only if it was without Ash. She spent far too long tagging along after him. Only by focusing on her goals alone in a much more personal journey will she achieve anything significant.
Does it really matter with who she travels though? How much development character will receive depends solely on writers, with Ash as character not having any influence on that. We can see with Dawn who almost became top coordinator of Sinnoh how traveling with friends doesn't hold you back and to be fair its much better and more exciting to see character working toward its dreams on screen doing new, fresh things, instead of everything happening of screen.
If redhead hypothetically ever returned to cast i believe most members around here whether they likes her or not would be willing to give it chance, trial to see if they will find character and sequel to its story enjoyable or not.
Sure she could travel alone, but whats point of it if we never see her progress?
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Please don't try and get smart with me. You know EXACTLY what I mean when I say "original series", I shouldn't have to spell it out every single time. But, if you insist, I was refering to Kanto, aka The Indigo League, aka The First 80 Episodes, aka The Series That Wasn't Orange Islands or Johto.
Im sorry if it seemed that way, but when original series are mentioned its usually meant Orange Islands and Johto too with Kanto being only one of sagas in it. Its easy to be mistaken with this, causing wrong presumption from my side.
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Well the fanbase sure has changed a lot, because I recall it being generally agreed that Misty was at her best in Kanto and maybe Orange Islands due to the romance angle she had going on with Ash.
Not really, i recall most people really liked when Misty was given more attention and focus on her own dreams and ambitions starting with Master Quest in Johto, being welcomed that her story started to move forward, enjoying in her interactions with other characters and development becoming more secure in herself and competent( perhaps one of best examples comes from "Some Like it Hot"when she had clash with fire trainer Egan revealing why she likes water types being still hotheaded with added doze of maturity into it not being berserk so much anymore). If you have chance to watch it i strongly suggest it, because it portrayed in good light how character can be mature and enjoyable at same time.
If character isn't playing some role in episode nor getting focus he isn't having opportunity to interact with other characters and display his traits.How active character will be and will he interact with others depends on amount of focus he receives in episode. From same problem even Ash suffered not having chance to interact and display his personality(there were episodes where he only said few generic lines and nothing else) due to too many unnecessary fillers being there which prevented main characters to be active due to taking backseat in several episodes which revolved around solving problems with COTD and their pokemon.
Whenever Misty got some screen time in Johto or played some role no matter how minor it was she showed plenty of characterization, being very lively as character which can be noticed in several episodes.
Same goes for hosos with people generally enjoying in growth she made there taming Gyarados, liking her perky and more playful side contributing to interesting dynamic with sisters and Tracey, as well her appearances liking her mixture of hotheaded and outspoken yet more assertive personality.
Whatever you saw back than was hardly general consensus among fandom, because i came online in 2001 and from what i noticed on forums and sites i went to at that time impressions were mostly positive. Pokemon fandom is very fickle and varies from site to site, so whatever you see on some site doesn't apply to others and vice versa being impossible to speak in everyone name.
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I'm not sure how anyone can even try to deny that the "dynamic original trio" (Which I enjoyed in Kanto.) became boring and stale by the time Johto rolled around. Everyone was excited when Orange Islands ended and Brock came back, but as it stands we were left disappointed. It wasn't the same. It wasn't because it was "different" in Johto, it was just plain boring.
Your lose than i guess, because i definitely enjoyed in their interactions. Ash,Misty and Brock in Johto still actually felt like genuine group of friends having good chemistry and several memorable moments. They all started to mature getting to know each other better developing tolerance toward their flaws while still having good interacting feeling like group which knew themselves very well having their principles, certain spark and better dynamic than it was case with some other groups like DP was(at least in my opinion). It can be noticed how close group they were during whole course of Johto with Misty sarcastic inputs and adventurous attitude, Ash bratty and impulsive side and Brock calm and rational personality providing humor and good chemistry.
Heck even Brock and Misty had memorable moments talking about girls and love while keeping each other in check when becoming too obsessive("Heartbreak of Brock","Corsola Caper","hassle in the Castle"etc) with his sickness showing best how much they were dependent on his help when he got sick(twice counting banned episode) having to overcome their differences. I remember several moments where you could feel how they were friends having fun together. Like when Misty talked with Brock giving him moral support,when she tend to tease Ash along with getting into clash sometimes.When Brock got sick with both companions having to manage without him showing close connection and concern about him etc.
Only reason why we didn't had their dynamic appearing on daily basis is because many episodes were following repetitive formula of fillers concentrating on COTD and problems with their pokemon with main cast taking backseat not being much active than.
@Ambipom666: Personally i didn't found Misty any less interesting, being nice change of pace to see more of her other sides beside just blowing up on everyone. In Johto we can still see Misty being full of spirit to explore and learn new things, sarcastic comments having tendency to tease Ash and others about their mistakes, we can still see her love for water types and fears, she was still spunky and tomboyish, with character being full of personality(whoever watch episodes where she shined will noticed this). True though about being too much on sidelines which limited character activity and chance that her personality and qualities come more on surface.
Though Ash never seemed that much stronger than her. Even without Psyduck headache she was on equal grounds defeating his Totodile with Poliwhirl with ease, and she planned to use Corsola vs Kingler which was able to defeat much bigger and ferocious pokemon like Gyarados in next round. She was also more successful than Ash was when battling Dorian in underwater gym where he wasn't able to defeat any of Dorian pokemon.
