Thread: Did you like Dawn/Hikari's role on the show?

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

It's simply not true that Dawn didn't grow outside of Contests.
Just think back how playful, rash and inexperienced she still was in DP1 and now remember how maturely she acted in DP 191 when comforting Piplup who was afraid of having to say goodbye. Could you in any way imagine DP1-Dawn acting like DP191-Dawn? That level of maturity by the end of DP clearly shows that her character did undergo a major change! And even during her journey you could already see signs of character growth and probably the best example is the way how she overcame her depression after her losing streak. If that's not a significant development, then I'm afraid I can't help you.
But again, my main argument is that you can indeed recognize a change in her personality when you compare Dawn at the beginning and at the end of DP.

Cant say i disagree here.
Dawn went through some change character wise,but i suppose reason why some people arent satisfied is because they expected some drastic change in character personality being to them by end of run still that girly,confident and cheerful girl they used to know with all that struggles and bad times she went through being overlooked in their eyes.

Compared to start of Sinnoh its noticeable how she grew from overconfident character to more humble and down to earth person not being anymore so rash,full of hrself growing to realize how her approach toward contests an attitude was wrong bringing her loses and failures.After that she went trough depressing state learning on mistakes and growing in stronger coordinator gaining more faith in her skills when she started winning and when she finally proved to Johanna her worth.

Reason i liked Dawn was because of great interactions she had with Ash,Zoey,Ursula or Kenny being good character.Because of interesting story and development she went through gaining tremendous growth as coordinator with culmination of hard work being achieved position of runner up in Sinnoh GF.And because of all that burden and pressure she had from mother,her rivals and friends she carried on back having to prove her worth as coordinator and fulfill other expectations making me root and care for journey and progress she made.

She wasnt my favorite pokemon female with Misty and May being more intriguing,deep and unique imo.however Dawn was definitely one of better characters we had in pokemon so far.

And finally let me repeat what I've said already: Misty got almost zero development and May...well, let's say she had learned how to deal with Pokemon by the end of her time with the group.
So, given these facts, I still find it kind of unfair that, while ignoring Misty and May, you're criticizing only Dawn although she was clearly the best and most elaborate of Ash's female companions.

I dont think those two are good examples to use,when trying to prove your point about Dawn.Anyone who watched original and Hoenn series can clearly notice how both of them went through notable growth.May developed a lot changing from insecure and clueless,ditzy girl to independant and confident character which learned to like pokemon,making name for herself as coordinator and deciding what to do with life.
While Misty went from short tempered girl which exploded over anything to more mature and levelheaded character toning down on violence along with getting over complex of inferiority caused by sisters becoming more responsible and confident along with making big step forward as trainer compared to early days.

In comparison i feel Dawn developed more story wise compared to both,but when it comes to character growth i feel she didnt changed as much as them.Even though you disagree,i respect your view on it.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I think the other problem is the character doesn't really have much nostalgia going for her (yet), so I can't say she's a character I feel the urge to revisit at the moment. Maybe in a few years from now when DP gets very old I'll get nostalgic. As of right now I feel like she served her purpose and that's all.

Just wait a little bit more and I'm almost sure you'll get nostalgic. Nostalgia usually comes automatically after some time.

Anyone who watched original and Hoenn series can clearly notice how both of them went through notable growth.May developed a lot changing from insecure and clueless,ditzy girl to independant and confident character which learned to like pokemon,making name for herself as coordinator and deciding what to do with life.

Well, that's what I already said. The only problem is that having become more competent when dealing with Pokemon is basically the only character development May went through.
And as for Misty, I think that she never really progressed, neither as a person nor as a trainer (her Golduck still hadn't learned how to swim by the time she left the group)

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

Just wait a little bit more and I'm almost sure you'll get nostalgic. Nostalgia usually comes automatically after some time.

Well the other problem for me is since I watched every saga in order, by the time DP started I figured Dawn was just going to leave when DP ended. When AG was airing nobody knew how long May would stay or what the writers were planning. However by the time Dawn was introduced, we all knew the "female protagonist cycle" and even back in 2006/2007 when DP first started, most people knew Dawn was just going to leave when it ended.

I know a lot of people said they never got attached to Dawn because they always knew she was going to leave. Its hard to get attached to a character when you know they're just going to be tossed out in a few years as if they never existed.

I think the reason I might not have any nostalgia for Dawn is because unlike Misty or May, she was introduced fairly "late" into the series (Season 10 to be precise), and by that point a huge portion of the anime's history had already gone by. By the time she came around we knew there would be no permanent female character, despite some people getting confused by her co-star status.

Shame, really. If Dawn was introduced earlier into the anime I do think she would have had more fanfare going for her, instead of just being "Pokemon girl #3" and "coordinator girl #2." When you stop to think about it, virtually Dawn's entire character was based on things either Ash or May did prior, which is why she had many similar aspects to both of them.

I will agree how she had some similarities with Ash or May,but we could say same thing for every character in reality being to expect that some traits will overlap when you have so many characters to work woth(especially in show wich replaces them so often).However while Dawn was May successor,they were distinct from each other as characters and Dawn contest quest was very different from Mays with writers putting alot more effort in her development as coordinator.Dawn was probably girliest out of all females we had in pokemon and she was known for always being optimistic looking at things from brighter point of view.Whole premise behind Dawn development was based on getting over fears of failing to fulfill expectations from mother and others,with everyone expecting lot from her since she was daughter of Sinnoh top coordinator.To learn how to cope with problems and obstacles with losing streak in contests,depression she went through considering to give up from being coordinator and problems she had with rivals or pokemon like Mamoswine being test to character strength and ability to find way out of hard situations she was put in.Thanks to this,Dawn learned how good name and optimism isnt enough to succeed in world of coordinators, becoming more rational and down to earth not rushing in battles anymore changing completely her approach and developing new battling style along with gaining selfesteem which was lost becoming proud of her pokemon and everything she accopmplished by end of her time on cast.

Imo Dawn was probably one of highlights in DP series having good character,decent chemistry with main cast(mostly Ash though) and most feshed out story out of all charaters(not named Ash).We got lot of insight in her past and childhood,there was invested a lot in training and problems character had to deal with with growth being done very deatiled.

Her cons were lack of chemistry with some rivals(like Kenny or Nando) and Brock,not changing much charcter wise like other girls did with charcter feeling at times stale along with some things like training for contests and appeals as well dealing with some problems with rivals dragging out character plot taking away from its interesting spects.

But all in all Daw was ok to me,and it was nice for a change to see female getting equally big role like driving force of this anime has(Ash).Well almost equal,she stil got little less.

Originally Posted by Queen Cynthia

Well, that's what I already said. The only problem is that having become more competent when dealing with Pokemon is basically the only character development May went through.
And as for Misty, I think that she never really progressed, neither as a person nor as a trainer (her Golduck still hadn't learned how to swim by the time she left the group)

I believe you meant Psyduck,and i have to disagree.Misty wasnt developed enough(thats true),but you could tell how she became abit more mature,patient and calmer compared to early days when she exploded over any tiny thing having zero to none tolerance(just compare her in Hoenn and late Johto to Kanto).She was also more responsible and selfconfident getting over complex of feeling less worthy compased to sisters which can be noticed when she gained their respect in hosos,saved gym from shutting down(despite wanting to stay with Ash) and when she grew enough to take on mentor role to characters like Sakura who had same issues.And i think coming top 8 in Whirl Cup.winning Seaking contest and Alto mare race being recognized by several trainers along with getting over fear from Gyarados was testament to improvement as trainer.If that wasnt decelopment,i dont know what it is.

To be honest, right after the Wallace Cup ended, I lost interest in rooting for Dawn.....then Ursula showed up! =) The one thing I'll give Dawn's character is character development, and I'll admit DP would not have been the same without her. It was interesting to see her:

-Train with Ash
-Go through trials and tribulations like a TRUE character should
-Bond with Mamoswine
-Interact with Ursula, Johanna, and to a lesser extent, Zoey

Overall, I quite liked Dawn. Is she my favorite character? Eh, no, but pretty close to it. I think she held her own and at least one could say that she was enjoyable at times.

Originally Posted by Cinderfella

To be honest, right after the Wallace Cup ended, I lost interest in rooting for Dawn.....then Ursula showed up! =) The one thing I'll give Dawn's character is character development, and I'll admit DP would not have been the same without her.

I agree. As a character, I liked her from her first ep until the end of the Wallace Cup. After that I thought her character became rather dull outside of the Ursula contests.

Its a shame the writers didn't develop her personality much after that, and I honestly feel her team pretty much went to hell around that point. Ambipom being released, Piplup not evolving, a rather rushed Cyndauil, a laughably last-minute Togekiss....and Buneary didn't get to evolve.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I honestly feel her team pretty much went to hell around that point. Ambipom being released, Piplup not evolving, a rather rushed Cyndauil, a laughably last-minute Togekiss....and Buneary didn't get to evolve.

I usually dont have many issues with releases, but damn Ambipom really came out of nowhere. Honestly, if Gliscor had not returned for the League, I would have been very disappointed. It would have been 2 great Pokemon whose potential was totally wasted. Dustox was sad, but understandable.

We should have at least gotten an Ambipom cameo, like damn, aren't the fans owed that much? What's done is done I guess, but I just didn't buy the whole ping-pong deal. Like really? If Infernape was ever released for some ridiculous reason I would have believed that the writers had something against monkeys. :p

I liked Dawn's role but it was kind of similar to May's role instead I think they pushed Dawn in our faces a little too much at times.

Originally Posted by Cinderfella

We should have at least gotten an Ambipom cameo, like damn, aren't the fans owed that much? What's done is done I guess, but I just didn't buy the whole ping-pong deal. Like really? If Infernape was ever released for some ridiculous reason I would have believed that the writers had something against monkeys. :p

I don't even understand the point, since Aipom was one of the most developed DP Pokemon early on especially if you remember all the screentime it got under Ash at the beginning of the saga.

It also really should have been Piplup and Ambipom in the finals against Zoey and not that Togekiss. Wouldn't it have made more sense if the two most developed contest pokemon were used against Zoey? Instead Dawn gets a Togekiss for "Free" that she never trained whatsoever, an already fully evolved pokemon, literally 2 episodes before the Grand Festival. One of the stupidest things the writers had ever done. And I thought her Cyndaquil was kinda rushed, but at least it had some proper development with the flame ice.

Its funny because even though DP was probably the best written arc as a whole, the writers STILL made absolutely ridiculous decisions that saga and proves they were still far from perfect. Its actually mind blowing how the tail-end of DP was so rushed and half-assed.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

It also really should have been Piplup and Ambipom in the finals against Zoey and not that Togekiss. Wouldn't it have made more sense if the two most developed contest pokemon were used against Zoey? Instead Dawn gets a Togekiss for "Free" that she never trained whatsoever, an already fully evolved pokemon, literally 2 episodes before the Grand Festival. One of the stupidest things the writers had ever done. And I thought her Cyndaquil was kinda rushed, but at least it had some proper development with the flame ice.

It really would have made much more sense for Ambipom to be used in the final round of the Grand Festival. Not only because of its development, but it also due to how much it enjoyed Contests. That was the whole point of Ash trading Apiom away for Dawn's Buizel, so it felt pretty weak when they suddenly got rid of Ambipom with that ping-pong tournament. Togekiss was pretty much handed to Dawn when she could have used her Ambipom in the Grand Festival. Releasing Ambipom and getting Togekiss merely episodes before the Grand Festivals were one of the biggest mistakes the writers made. The only way I would have been okay with Dawn using Togekiss in the Grand Festival would be if she caught it much earlier as a Togepi and had been able to raise it into a Togekiss. It would have been kind of cool to see a Togepi actually battle and seeing another one of Dawn's Pokemon evolve would have been nice too.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Its funny because even though DP was probably the best written arc as a whole, the writers STILL made absolutely ridiculous decisions that saga and proves they were still far from perfect. Its actually mind blowing how the tail-end of DP was so rushed and half-assed.

True. To be quite honest I would have been comfortable with spending another year with DP if it meant better writing. It's a shame that they rushed to get to Best Wishes, which is not that very good IMO. Hopefully it changes, but had I known then what I know now, I would have loved to see DP prolonged further. More league episodes, releases being fixed, and more Ursula. One extra year would not have hurt, yeah we would still have Brock most likely, but in reference to Dawn I wouldn't mind.

It always seems to me that the short sagas have better developed conclusions while the long ones have rushed endings. Hopefully one day the writers can get it right and create a well balanced saga, well at least close to it.

Even though I like May more as a character, I liked Dawn's role a lot on the show. Even more than May. Dawn was a true costar with Ash, and her contests were very interesting to watch. We saw her ups, we saw her downs, and we saw her grow and develop as a character. In that regard, I think Dawn had a great role on the show.

Originally Posted by Cinderfella

True. To be quite honest I would have been comfortable with spending another year with DP if it meant better writing. It's a shame that they rushed to get to Best Wishes, which is not that very good IMO. Hopefully it changes, but had I known then what I know now, I would have loved to see DP prolonged further. More league episodes, releases being fixed, and more Ursula. One extra year would not have hurt, yeah we would still have Brock most likely, but in reference to Dawn I wouldn't mind.

It always seems to me that the short sagas have better developed conclusions while the long ones have rushed endings. Hopefully one day the writers can get it right and create a well balanced saga, well at least close to it.

Eh, I feel DP could have probably been done in roughly 150 episodes. There were still a number of episodes we could have done without. I also feel as if HGSS derailed DP for a while with all those forced Johto advertisement episodes.

Doesn't help matters that in the Grand Festival we only see Dawn have 2 wins. One against Ursula and a 40 second battle against Jessie. That's it? That's all it really took Dawn to get to the finals? Beating one girl for the third time and Jessie being treated like a joke?

I know there were probably some off-screen battles for Dawn we didn't get to see, but her whole road into the finals also felt like it was done to make it easy for her. I bet if Dawn battled Nando she would have lost.

Dawn was cute, thats good enough for me!

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Eh, I feel DP could have probably been done in roughly 150 episodes. There were still a number of episodes we could have done without. I also feel as if HGSS derailed DP for a while with all those forced Johto advertisement episodes.

I don't think that the Johto and HG/SS derailed the series that much at all. There were a couple of filler episodes focused on Johto Pokemon, especially in that Twinleaf Town arc, but those didn't take up that much time. As for the Johto Festival arc, that fit in with the series quite well. Dawn got her Cyndaquil and participated in another Contest, so it wasn't like it was huge detour from their regular journey. Plus, it was kind of nice to see other characters traveling around the group for a change of pace and those episodes were really fun in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Doesn't help matters that in the Grand Festival we only see Dawn have 2 wins. One against Ursula and a 40 second battle against Jessie. That's it? That's all it really took Dawn to get to the finals? Beating one girl for the third time and Jessie being treated like a joke?

I know there were probably some off-screen battles for Dawn we didn't get to see, but her whole road into the finals also felt like it was done to make it easy for her. I bet if Dawn battled Nando she would have lost.

Dawn did have some off-screen battles in the Grand Festival. We saw a couple of images of Dawn with her of her Pokemon, which were Piplup and Buneary if I recall correctly, which meant that she had already battled at least another Coordinator or two in order to get into the top four. It wasn't just because she defeated Ursula and Jessie. I always thought that the Grand Festival was seriously rushed due to how quickly Dawn got to the finals. I understand that they weren't interested in showing her battle against one shot characters, but it really hurt the impact of Dawn getting into the finals if we only see one complete battle and a clip show of her battle against Jessie. While the Sinnoh League wasn't perfect, it was handled much better than Dawn's Grand Festival, if only because we saw almost all of Ash's battles, so seeing him get up to the Top four was huge. Though, it also really helps that the league had the inevitable battle between Ash and Paul, but I think that the Grand Festival could have been much better if we saw more of Dawn's progression in in rather than fast forward to her match in the final.