Thread: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, etc.

And Ash wouldn't have countered after the evolution? I think you're giving her a little too much credit. She didn't really counter dig at all. Dragonite dodged the first on it's own, and Ash caught them off guard with the second.

All Iris did was use Flamethrower and Ice Beam over and over again, which again goes back to her plain brute force battling style battling style.

Originally Posted by Masurao

Originally Posted by Chiplet

We can't really say who would have won if Dragonite didn't go berserk. Not until Dragonite and Krokodile have a proper battle.

And Ash wouldn't have countered her after the evolution? I think you're giving her a little too much credit. She didn't really counter dig at all. Dragonite dodged the first on it's own, and Ash caught them off guard with the second. All Iris did was use Flamethrower and ice Beam over and over again.

Obviously you're completely missing my point. What I was talking about was the battle between Krokorok and Dragonite, when he used THAT specific strategy. As you probably saw, Krokorok was nearly done for, and what I was trying to imply was that if Iris could counter that strategy of Krokorok, why wouldn't she be able to do the same thing? What I meant was that the strategy of Dig and Stone Edge specifically wouldn't have been able to beat Dragonite.

Originally Posted by Chiplet

What I was talking about was the battle between Krokorok and Dragonite, when he used THAT specific strategy.

With Krokodile's increased power, and the inclusion of Dragon Claw's that might have been the difference.

Just like Dragonite might not fall for Dig and Stone edge spam, Krokodile may have found a way around the constant use of Ice beam/Flamethower. Again it's hard to say, all we can do is make assumptions.

That being said Dragonite is probably stronger than the majority of Ash's traveling companions Pokemon. However, single battles like Excadrill vs Blaziken/Venasuar, or Emolga vs Quilava are probably more up in the air. Dragonite itself would probably be the difference maker.

Originally Posted by Masurao

With Krokodile's increased power, and the inclusion of Dragon Claw's that might have been the difference.

I'll repeat myself. What I was talking about was that specific battle between Krokorok and Dragonite, and not Dragonite and Krookodile. I was talking about that specific strategy, not of anything else.

Just like Dragonite might not fall for Dig and Stone edge spam, Krokodile may have found a way around the constant use of Ice beam/Flamethower.

Why of course. Why would it not be able to do such a thing? I don't recall saying anything different

Again it's hard to say, all we can do is make assumptions.

Oh?

That being said Dragonite is probably stronger than the majority of Ash's traveling companions Pokemon. However, single battles like Excadrill vs Blaziken, or Emolga vs Quilava are probably more up in the air.

Naturally. Dragonite is Iris' primer ace, after all, even though Excadrill are one of the stronger main cast Pokémon too. But if you were to pick out the three strongest Pokémon from each companion, I'd say that overall, Iris would take the win, and that's mostly due to her Dragonite.

Originally Posted by U-missed-a-spot

opens poll

sees many options that shouldn't even exist

clicks "Iris"

waits for someone to make a backhanded comment about Misty/May being better without any real backup~

You are so late to the party lol. Besides dragonite tanked attacks like no tomorrow from ice types all day long and it only ever fainted to rock and dragon moves. Besides anyone thinking type advantage doesn't matter because lolanime has obviously never seen these battles.

Electivire vs Torterra
Infernape vs Aggron
Pikachu vs Gyrados
Charizard vs Scizor
Emboar vs Bisharp

among many others. IN the animeworld types are still the rule while ash and his team of tiny weakling stage 1s friendshipping their way through stage 3 type advantage is the exception.

Originally Posted by U-missed-a-spot

opens poll

sees many options that shouldn't even exist

clicks "Iris"

waits for someone to make a backhanded comment about Misty/May being better without any real backup~

You'd be asked for real backup for Iris, if anything ;).

I see May as being the strongest since she knew how to use her Pokemon well the most in her battles. Dawn comes in second, Cilan third, Brock fourth, Misty fifth, Iris sixth and Tracey seventh in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Human

You'd be asked for real backup for Iris, if anything ;).

Nah, I'd get a wall of text from pokemon fan 132, if anything ;)

I'm going to say Cilan, because that dude shows extreme competence and he is very knowledgeable. I am approaching this poll thinking about the trainer, rather than what Pokémon he or she has, but his Crustle is a beast as well.

Originally Posted by Chiplet

They are also part fighting and flying. All of those typings have rather little effect on a Dragon/Flying-type. See?

Most types have no real advantage on dragons, aside from ice and dragon type but that didn't stopped Krookodile from beating it. Not to mention dragon attacks have big effect only on dragons so your point is moot.

Never mind fact how water types have ability to use ice techniques with ice beam being pretty common among them. Something dragons are especially weak against, and lets not forget how in strength Gyarados is among top contenders capable of knocking down most opponents with one attack . Last time i checked one hyperbeam was enough to severely damage Dragonite in battle against wild Hydreigon.

Obviously? What else am I supposed to go on with the fact that this is Pokémon? What other logical ways are there? Experience? Well, Dragonite pretty wins on that part too.

You can't play double game with this. If your going to disregard type advantage in Dragonite case defeating Mamoswine and Beartic despite double weakness, than same applies to Blaziken and Gyarados too with type advantage or disadvantage not being reliable indication to determine who would come of as winner in here.what outcome would happen in battle.

When you're speculating, type-advantage is an important fact that you'll have to take in consideration. Please.

Important, but not decidable. People often forget how anime=/=games with one of main messages this show is trying to spread out is how strategy, skills and what attacks your going to use holds higher prevalence than stats and type advantage.

Something which is constantly proven every day with there existing numerous examples where pokemon at disadvantage managed to defeat other pokemon, sometimes even dominating over course of match despite being weak to opposing type.

So what does this tell us?
How game stats and type coverage isn't everything in anime.

Actually, you're wrong. It's about the same different. Gyarados water/flying type moves, which are the strongest moves for its typing, won't have much effect on Dragonite, while the same goes for Blaziken's fighting/fire type moves, while most of Dragonite moves have normal effect or even super effect. In the battle against Mamoswine, Dragonite's Dragon type moves would have normal effect, while Mamoswine's Ice-type moves would have super effect, it's pretty much the same thing but just the opposite.

See above.

Hahahaha. What?

You came of with conclusion how Dawn came further in GF than May did straying away from main subject being, if May is stronger trainer than Dawn is?

Coming further in Grand Festival isn't accurate indication of her strength nor it proves how she is more skilled. For example in Kanto league Ash came further than Gary did but did this meant he is stronger? Not really because he came further through luck and easier opponents with easy defeat against Gary later on proving that.

That doesn't change the fact that Dawn actually knocked out lots of her opponents during her Contest Battles. Your argument to make May seem ''stronger'' really fails IMO. I might consider Dawn to be slightly weaker, but that's just barely. May isn't much of a better battler than Dawn, and the fact that Dawn has participated in more battles than May doesn't really help your argument.

Out of 12(or was it 13?)contests Dawn entered she only managed to knock down three opponents(Ursul, Jessie and one random guy who i forgot name). Majority of her wins was got on points, so again how that actually equals alot?

In comparison most May wins in contests happened through knocking down her opponents which was reflection of her trainer like battling style which was direct influence from Ash mentoring, losing in general less than Dawn did over course of DP.

So no, even statistically Dawn doesn't come of as "stronger battler".

If Blaziken was all that powerful, it should've been able to defeat Ash's Sceptile. After all, Blaziken had belonged into May's possession longer than Ash's Sceptile, not to mention the type-advantage (with only Sceptile Slam having somewhat effect on it). Mamoswine, Piplup and Togekiss have all proved to be powerful in their own ways, and are definitely not inferior in any ways to May's Pokémon. Especially not as we've not even seen her Venusaur in action, and barely her Blaziken either.

It was in May possession for around 6 episode more, since Ash caught Treecko in 7th episode of AG meaning how experience wise no one had upper hand there. And my point still stands, if it was able to tie with Ash pokemon which was capable of defeating legendary what makes you think how it couldn't be able to stand its ground against Dragonite? Last time i checked legendary are in general harder to defeat.

Not seeing some of them much in action doesn't mean anything because Venusaur ad Wartortle already proved as more than enough competent battlers during their run, and since through evolution pokemon usually become stronger and when taking in account May skills as coordinator its safe to presume how they are powerful.

When you take a look at fully evolved Venusaur, Blaztiken, Wartortle, Glaceon, Beautifly etc as opposite to Piplup, Buneary, Pachirisu with only evolved ones being Mamoswine, Togekiss and Quilava May leaves out impression of overall more skilled and stronger coordinator.

And seeing she has more experience with trainer battles being used to such style with her pokemon relying more on raw strength than Dawn pokemon do as we get chance to witness during their runs, its to expect that May would fare better when battling trainers than Dawn does.

That's just ridiculous.

Just compare opponents May had to face with competition Dawn had in Sinnoh GF. Coordinators which entered AG and BF GF such as Drew, Soledad, Harley, Robert(guy with MIlotic)etc gave out impression of being harder challenge to go against than likes of Jessie, Kenny or Nando.

Yes, but would it lead to victory? No. He won because of the fact that Dragonite went berserk, and then used rather open attacks.

Im not so sure about that because Krookodile showed to be extremely powerful so even if it didn't went berserk i doubt Dragonite would be able to win that match.

Your basing presumptions on nothing with Ash spending more time with Krookorok and trained him infinitely more than Iris did Dragonite at that point. Not to mention Iris had no real solution to counter his dig and addition of dragon claw only went in alligator favor with dragons in general being vulnerable to such attacks.

Drayden is probably Unova's strongest Gym Leader, at least in the animé, and he uses Dragon-types. Misty uses Water-types, and she's most certainly not the strongest Gym Leader in Kanto, at least not from what I've seen, and how she's doing now is impossible to tell.

I don't view dragon type as superior to others, and while i agree how Drayden is likely stronger than Misty is judging from skill Misty demonstrated during her run and improvement ever since showed that she was more than enough competent trainer which can stand up to challenge.

Judging by how much time has passed since we last saw her with there not existing info on her current status, its unfair to write her out since there doesn't exist sustainable evidence to support statement how Iris would win.

It could go either way and until we see Misty again and get some update we can't really tell where she stands now. And last time we saw her she was anything but "weakling".

Oh please, you could pretty much say that about any move, so that's a very poor excuse. And the same goes for the ''forced way to write'', as that could work both ways.

Except its not. There are moves which do small damage like lt say scratching, moves with medium strength and moves which has potential to finish of opponent in one blow(like seismic toss).

And i still stand by what i said. Her Mamoswine received ton of direct hits from Gabite and Flareon with Dawn pokemon being on their last legs.But somehow they recovered from everything,like they werent damaged at all beating both of Ursula pokemon with one hit.Whole battle was contrived and written in way to secure Dawn win in that battle and while Mamoswine and Candquil has cool combinations writers played on card of resistance too much in there.

Because, as I've said, the fact that we've barely seen anything from the two clearly makes Mamoswine the winner in my eyes. Neither Gyarados nor Blaziken has made such a huge impression on me, because they never received the remark of being close to über, which Dragonite did.

So let me get this straight; you perceive Blaziken and Gyarados as weaker than Mamoswine because we haven't seen them much?

Im sorry but even with that little we saw from them they had greater success in their battles and gave vibe of strong powerhouses than Mamoswine really did on his own. He never came of as exceptionally powerful like those two did only being successful when teaming up with other pokemon through contest battles. Which is fine and all but since he never encountered many opponents which rely on raw and straightforward approach which trainer like Iris use, resulted in not developing his strength to full potential with Dawn clearly not having much experience in trainer battles which greatly differs from contest rounds.

Yet they are effective, especially as the Pokémon isn't under controll. Simple logic.

Not sure where your going with this but Dragonite disobedience has nothing to do with resistance. You as argument in Dragonite favor used not particularly big effectiveness from other types which aren't ice and dragon, and i proved otherwise with techniques from ground/dark type proving more effective than ice attacks were in that match.

Beating three Tentacruel by those three pathetic Trainers doesn't really make him seem powerful in my eyes, and a Flamethrower against a Shedidja? No.

Tying with a Sceptile and having a hard time against a Girafarig who didn't even use Psychic moves? No.

Taking Ice-type attacks (who have a 4x advantage) like they were nothing and nearly going toe-to-toe with legendaries? Yes.

Your giving Dragonite and Iris a bit too much credit imo. Your basing entire Dragonite strength on his wins over Beartic and Mamoswine ignoring fact that Langley was never portrayed as exceptionally strong trainer with Beartic not seeming any stronger than Ecadrill was tying with it.
And if he couldn't beat Excadrill, its no surprising why it lost easily against more powerful pokemon like Dragonite regardless of type advantage.

Along with Dawn not having much experience in trainer battles not using raw strength and battle style likes of Ash, Misty, Cilan etc tend to use.

Needless to say your ignoring fact how most battles Dragonite won on his own not being valid reflection of Iris skills since she had no impact on outcome of those matches at all. If he was really that strong and "unbeatable" he wouldn't lose so easily to Ash and Drayden and from someone who is capable of resisting attacks against which he has 4x weakness you would expect him to be on pair with legendaries(something which wasn't the case).

I have yet to see plausible argument which would support thesis how Blaziken and Gyarados would necessarily lose to Dragonite. Defeating Dawn Mamoswine isn't indication of other two strength and cant speak in their name being incomparable.

Making whole argument fallacious; because one outcome which resulted in defeat in situation A doesn't prove how same outcome would happen in situation B and C (being Blaziken and Gyarados in this subject).

After that Darkrai had battled three other Pokémon....?

If he was wear down showing signs of exhaustion you might have a point, but Darkrai was basically intact when confronting Sceptile with out of three only Heracross doing some notable damage with mega horn. Other two Gible and Torkoal didn't left much impact on him at all.

We are talking about Darkrai in here which defeated all gym leaders and trainers in league prior to meeting Ash by himself.

If those three Tentacruel had belonged to any other Trainer, then maybe. :p

And do we know for certain how strong those trainers were? They weren't high class for sure, but they weren't rock bottom either.
Even if all three of them were weak individually, confronting all three at once and one of most powerful water attacks out there(like hydrpump) isn't piece of cake either with Gyarados proving to be strong pokemon.

Also colonel Hanson was strong trainer with his Shedinja being basically invincible to Ask, Brock and May attack attempts and Gyarados managed to knock it down.

It's because Iris possess stronger Pokémon than they, and she received those Pokémon for a reason to, because in the games she's a Champion, the strongest Trainer in the region, and naturally the writers wanted to take that fact into consideration by giving her Dragonite. If the writers would have her battle either of those two, they'd surely make her win, because Iris is supposed to be considered a strong Pokémon Trainer. Has it been done well? Not necessarily, but that doesn't change the fact with what her characters is leading to.

Stronger pokemon?
Axew is too weak to stand to most of their pokemon. Excadrill is her most experienced one but ground characteristics would put him in bad spot against most Misty pokemon and May Glaceon and Venusaur would have upper hand here as well. And he didn't showed any remarkable strength which would warrant to put him as stronger than most of this girls pokemon.
Which brings us to Emolga which while having type advantage against most Misty pokemon showed to be unreliable in battle not being very experienced at all. Not to mention job of one type trainer is to overcome weakness his type has coming up with defense strategy and techniques which would increase his chances when battling pokemon which on paper has upper hand, so out of Misty pokemon i could see aside from blue snake Corsola, Politoad or Staryu having chance to stand up to electric type.

Even if Dragonite is stronger than any May or Misty pokemon in full four on four battle basing on Iris and May, Misty teams Blaziken, Gyarados, Venusaur or Politoad could wear down dragon enough so that other pokemon could finish him of having greater success against rest of Iris team. Making outcome of match between them unpredictable.

And argument of other girls necessarily losing to Iris because of her champion status in games doesn't hold water when taken in account how she already lost several times to various trainers like Ash, Georgia, Stephan, Drayden etc.

Premise behind your argument is how Iris is champion in games and has strong Dragonite, therefore she is bound to win because of her game status. But conclusion doesn't have to necessarily follow that premise making your theory invalidated.

I know I voted Iris, but I'm changing my mind and saying that Cilan is perhaps the strongest battler. While he doesn't have many wins, he is a gym leader - one who guides rookie trainers through battles, and he knows quite a lot about strategies. His battles are of very high quality, keeping mistakes to a minimum and evaluating every move.

Originally Posted by Dark Blueberry

I know I voted Iris, but I'm changing my mind and saying that Cilan is perhaps the strongest battler. While he doesn't have many wins, he is a gym leader - one who guides rookie trainers through battles, and he knows quite a lot about strategies. His battles are of very high quality, keeping mistakes to a minimum and evaluating every move.

Which fared very well vs the countershield and serperior right?

Serperior was another trip wank so that shouldn't count for anything.

The counter shields is just one tactic.. sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

Originally Posted by CharAznable

Why isn't AJ on this list!? The man who had 98 wins and zero losses that had an epic sandshrew.

1 AJ was a COTD
2 iris had 99

I voted May and am pleasantly surprised more people did too.

I think she had the most challenges on her quest, and those challenges were also bigger in and out of themselves, Drew and Harley were great rivals, and weren't played for laughs like many others, plus, they were more developped aswell. May's strenght isn't just brute power, even though she has that aswell, she is also a skilled strategist, and her contest appeals didn't boil down to move + move = sparklies or mon + Ice Beam = ice skating.

May. She has a well-rounded team, uses her Pokemon effectively, does not focus on a single type, and does it all with style.