Thread: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, etc.

Cilan's recent battle with Trip shows that he's very experienced. Its a shame he has so few pokemon, I feel like we don't really know the true extent of his strength. I am not sure how to compare him with Brock, because they're probably around the same age and thus as experienced as each other. Brock has tons more pokemon of course, but that doesn't really matter if they only have a 3 on 3.

I wrote a rather large analysis of this scenario, and placed a lot of effort in evaluating each trainer's strengths and weaknesses relative to the strengths and weaknesses of their contemporaries. It factors in each trainer's personalities and experiences if they are forced into a battle, as well as the types of pokemon each trainer has in their arsenal. When I was comparing May and Dawn (the two coordinators), I also factored in the results of their previous (on-screen) battle as well as their achievements in contests overall.

It's not a perfect construct of this discussion because we can assume that "anything goes" in this tournament. Certain types of pokemon have a larger advantage over others, and vice-versa.

I believe it is safe to say that Brock will be the first one going. There has been nothing which suggests that any of his pokemon, other than his Steelix or quite possibly his Ludicolo, has what it takes to stand up to the pokemon that the other major characters might have in their arsenal. It is very important to stress that Brock doesn't like to "battle" alongside his pokemon and would simply be content with raising them in an efficient and loving manner. Brock's dislike of battling in general is his Achilles' heel. Brock has been shown capable of battling decently if he was forced to, but none of the opponents he might be paired up with in this mock tournament are lightweight trainers. They each exhibit some passion towards battling that is relatively absent in Brock's construct of character. Most of Brock's pokemon are males so they can easily be thwarted by Iris's Emolga's Attract.

Misty and Iris are both wild cards in this equation as well. Neither trainer is particularly experienced or well-versed in battling, and have quite a number of weak and inexperienced pokemon on their teams to boot. Nevertheless, each trainer has possession of at least one powerful pokemon that can hold its own in a fight. For Misty, it would be the Gyarados that can also use fire-type attacks such as Flamethrower. For Iris, it would be the Excadrill that she had raised and trained ever since it was a Drilbur. Those pokemon might be able to triumph over any of the "unevolved" pokemon that the other companions have in their arsenal. However, there has been nothing in this anime which suggests that either pokemon had a winning streak, or was unbeatable. Excadrill and Gyarados can only hold their own in a fight for so long. Emolga's Attract and Corsola's Mirror Coat attacks are also too situational to account for their effectiveness if either of these pokemon are paired up against a multitude of different opponents. Misty and Iris would be eliminated next.

Cilan is also a gym leader, but he adds a flavor of intelligence and calculated coolness into his style of battling. He doesn't get fed up in the same manner that Misty would do if the battle isn't going her way; but at the same time, however, Cilan exhibits enough passion in his battle that would give Brock a run for his money. Cilan has a slightly larger variety of pokemon than either trainer, all of which can hold their own in a fight.

We should factor in the possibility that either Brock or Misty could potentially send out a Water-type pokemon against any one of Cilan's pokemon. Even though two of Cilan's pokemon (Dwebble and Stunfisk) have a type disadvantage against Water-types in particular, both pokemon have some sort of counter and defense when they might be paired up with that type. For Stunfisk, it has access to some electric-type moves to compensate for its ground-type weakness. For Dwebble, Cilan could simply use the pokemon's Protect attack to shave off some of the damage, and then go for a potential win with its Shell Smash combo.

However, we should also consider that both Dawn and May also bolster a wild variety of pokemon with different types in their own arsenals as well. Cilan's only "upper hand" in this scenario would be his own intelligence; but of course, his intelligence and "thinking two or three steps ahead of the opponent" appoach can only get him so far. Cilan was visibly surprised by Ash's ability to innovate strategies in the middle of their fight. It should be noted that both of these coordinators have that amazing amount of flexibility in their battling styles as well. Cilan's team of unevolved pokemon will be outclassed in a battle where both trainers have access to and can use fully evolved pokemon.

For simplicity's sake, I might as well just pair up May and Dawn in the final round of this tournament. When these two characters were paired up for real, Dawn got the slight edge over May in points. Neither pokemon in that battle (Dawn's Piplup and May's Glaceon) exhibited any true advantage over the other. The battle had shifted both ways. There is no advantage in "expertise" here, either. May had obtained her Glaceon as an Eevee shortly before Dawn had set off on her journey. May's Eevee had evolved into a Glaceon only a few days before the actual start of the Wallace Cup itself. There should be some testament to May's skills as a coordinator for her ability to raise such a powerful and skilled pokemon in only a short amount of time. Dawn was simply using the best pokemon in her arsenal at the time, and even then, her Piplup's attacks were countered time and time again (i.e. Glaceon's Mirror Coat).

However, this battle took place a "long" time ago. Dawn had obtained many more pokemon since this battle was resolved. Some of Dawn's pokemon even evolved and learned new attacks, so right now "experience" isn't as big a factor when it comes to deciding the end result. With seven pokemon afloat, May (currently) has a slightly bigger arsenal than Dawn. Two of her pokemon (Munchlax and Skitty) are unevolved pokemon with some battling experience and a variety of moves. Dawn can easily counter those pokemon using similar pokemon (Buneary and Pachirisu). There's no telling the end result of such a match-up.

Of course, we should factor in the evolved pokemon as well. May has four fully evolved pokemon in her arsenal, as opposed to Dawn's two. However, Dawn's Piplup had the potential to evolve into a Prinplup, and had since abandoned the idea for the sake of his trainer's happiness. Piplup compensated for this missed opportunity by learning a powerful new attack (Hydro Pump) that even gave Zoey's pokemon a run for their money. Dawn's Piplup is arguably the coordinator's most powerful and versatile weapon in contests. From Buneary to Togekiss to Pachirisu, Piplup has been shown to get along with and has battled alongside the majority of Dawn's pokemon. None of their "double performance" combinations should be trifled with. Of course, May's pokemon also have that same flexibility in attack patterns and flexibility. It's a near dead even match here as well.

Therefore, the only way to settle this match-up is by evaluating each coordinator's relative experience in the profession. May initially disliked pokemon overall and had only been introduced to the contest mechanic for a short while. May was terribly inexperienced during her beginning trials, even much more so than Dawn could had ever been. Ever since that moment, however, May had improved by leaps and bounds. As a coordinator, May was able to accomplish something that even Dawn in her prime was unable to replicate: defeating Dawn's main rival, Zoey, as well as her pokemon Glameow in a contest battle. May was using one of her more experienced veterans in this match-up and had been felled by Zoey's strategies too, but she simply had more skill and experience on her end.

On the contrary, we have a coordinator who had wanted to follow her mother's footsteps ever since she was old enough to think for herself. Dawn's earlier years were swarmed by an obsession to battle alongside and raise pokemon. Dawn was visibly excited when she wanted to obtain her pokemon from Professor Rowan. Dawn had much more motivation than May to become a better coordinator; and for the sake of completing this goal with greater success, had managed to obtain more pokemon in a shorter amount of time than her predecessor. Including the Ambipom and Buizel that she had raised on a shorter term, Dawn had successfully completed contest appeals for eight pokemon, slightly triumphing over her counterpart in this regard.

Should we simply factor that May had slightly more time in the profession and leave it at that? Is it safe to factor out Dawn's own accomplishments? Both May and Dawn seem to like to attack head-on, giving their opponents a good chance for a counterattack. They have been felled by that same response time and time again, and neither one of them appeared to have improved a decent enough defense to triumph over their weakness. Dawn and May are so similar in nature that it is nearly impossible to say that either trainer has a better shot at defeating the other. I'll simply leave it at that note.

If I was forced to give a choice as to who could win this tournament, I might as well just state May as the winner only because she had more time to compete in contests. Besides, we have no idea how much May had changed since she was last seen on-screen.

Thank you for reading this in full.

Now that the tournament is over, it really does feel as if Iris is much stronger now, although its hard to pinpoint where exactly.

Excadrill is a powerhouse, probably right up there with some of Ash's stronger pokemon. Iris is also a far better battler than Misty at this point (compare any of Iris' recent battles in the tournament to any of Misty's Kanto battles, there is no comparison), but I don't know where she stands as a whole.

Although sadly being "too good" is a problem too, because it makes Iris seem Mary Sue-ish. That's why I don't want to place her too high, it actually is a negative.

This is a tough call for me. I've never been one to put the coordinators on the same level as Ash, but they would still be tough to deal with since their moves have to be more creative. Although note that Ash learned from them and now uses some of those tactics himself. Brock has never seemed like he would truly fare well against Ash, at least not since his original defeat. (if you can call it that) The only time I remember Misty getting the better of Ash was in her own element, which makes sense, she clearly has more experience than him in that arena. A normal battle? Not so much. Iris has overcome the electric rodent himself, which is no small feat no matter what pokemon was used to do it. (Yes, I know Misty did this, too, but that was using tactics a lot more unfair than type alignments) Does this mean I favor Iris? Strangely, no, although she's the strongest companion that's been on the show in ages. The other may be Misty. As much as I rag on her not being focused on enough, she was a really competent battler. May and Dawn were not billed as being battlers, so I can scarcely include them here. Cilan does seem pretty decent, but his skills have not been showcased enough for me to say much.

Originally Posted by Samurott

This is a tough call for me. I've never been one to put the coordinators on the same level as Ash, but they would still be tough to deal with since their moves have to be more creative. Strangely, no, although she's the strongest companion that's been on the show in ages. The other may be Misty. As much as I rag on her not being focused on enough, she was a really competent battler.

What battles of Misty are you referring to?

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

What battles of Misty are you referring to?

One which comes to mind where Misty really shined showing her potential as trainer was in Whirl Cup against. Harrison,Ash and Trinity,when she battled gym leader Dorian.when battling against Molly in third movie etc.
Way in which she interacted with water types earning their trust(referring to Gyarados)or when encouraging them to restore confidence back(referring to Poliwhirl)showed that her character has predispositions and potential which someone needs to make a name for itself.

Misty maybe didnt had luxury to have many battles like Ash or some other characters like Dawn did but basing on what we saw she was certainly not some low class rookie being skilled as water trainer laving positive impressions on many other trainers(especially when battling in her own element water).
She is also along Iris only character which managed to win first real tournament(Princess festival) early in series being nothing to scoof at so while i wouldnt put her on top she would either come second or third in skill and strength among Ash traveling companions.

So far though Iris seem to be strongest of Ash friends early in series and if she keeps up i could see her surpassing others coming at top.

That was late in her run though. During Johto she became a better battler, but in Kanto I hardly remember her battles with her own pokemon at all being stand-out in anyway. Psyduck started popping out of its ball in all her matches.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

That was late in her run though. During Johto she became a better battler, but in Kanto I hardly remember her battles with her own pokemon at all being stand-out in anyway. Psyduck started popping out of its ball in all her matches.

I reckon purpose of Psyduck was to add comedy in this show with love-hate relationship between him and Misty playing out nicely.Yellow dick drove her crazy(well pretty much always)but she gradually started to care more and more about it.

Speaking of Kanto one of most memorable Misty battles to me i guess were when she battled against Ash with Staryu and Starmie or when Psyduck battled against Farfetched or bikers band(though that was more for comedy).
If we count using other pokemon than battling with Seal vs TR in underwater ballet was definitely one of best battles she had that early imo.

Well, assuming they want Iris to be the 8th gym leader by the end of this series, and she actually get's more Dragons...she'll probably end up being the second strongest person on the main cast overall, only surpassed by Ash if not equal to him.

Pikachu still can't seem to beat the Ground/Steel type combination. Jasmine, and Morrison's Steelix absolutely destroyed Pikachu. At least here Pikachu put up somewhat of a fight, even though he still lost.

I don't quite know where to put Axew, his power-up just seemed ridiculous. Emonga is obviously equal to Snivy.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Now that the tournament is over, it really does feel as if Iris is much stronger now, although its hard to pinpoint where exactly.

Excadrill is a powerhouse, probably right up there with some of Ash's stronger pokemon. Iris is also a far better battler than Misty at this point (compare any of Iris' recent battles in the tournament to any of Misty's Kanto battles, there is no comparison), but I don't know where she stands as a whole.

Although sadly being "too good" is a problem too, because it makes Iris seem Mary Sue-ish. That's why I don't want to place her too high, it actually is a negative.

*EYE twitch*
Charizard beat Scisor Blastiose and Golem in a row. Excadrill beat Scolipede and Pikachu.

Wanna know what else beat Pikachu? SNIVY! Just because Iris won doesn't mean anything caause of the reset. Just because Excadrill is evolved and has good stats in the games doesn't mean anything as show by Pikachu beat Dragonite and Metgross.

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

Wanna know what else beat Pikachu? SNIVY! Just because Iris won doesn't mean anything caause of the reset. Just because Excadrill is evolved and has good stats in the games doesn't mean anything as show by Pikachu beat Dragonite and Metgross.

It doesn't matter, just by watching Excadrill in battle it was a powerhouse. Iris is definitely stronger than Kanto-era Misty was. Just compare Misty's battles in the first 44 or so Kanto eps to Iris battles in the tournament arc, there is no comparison.

Misty nowadays might be stronger, but she hasn't appeared in so long that there's no way of telling how she is now.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

It doesn't matter, just by watching Excadrill in battle it was a powerhouse. Iris is definitely stronger than Kanto-era Misty was. Just compare Misty's battles in the first 44 or so Kanto eps to Iris battles in the tournament arc, there is no comparison.

Misty nowadays might be stronger, but she hasn't appeared in so long that there's no way of telling how she is now.

ALL WINNERS ARE SHOWN IN A POSITIVE LIGHT. Buizel looked badass at first but it stopped being as strong as time went on. Everything looks strong just by watching.

Originally Posted by Alphaphlare

ALL WINNERS ARE SHOWN IN A POSITIVE LIGHT. Buizel looked badass at first but it stopped being as strong as time went on. Everything looks strong just by watching.

That is true. However you cannot say Excadrill is not a strong pokemon.

Iris also did fairly well with Emonga and Axew in the tournament, beating a powerful Sawk and Golett.

While I don't think Iris is godly, she is definitely stronger than the previous 3 girls were at only 45 eps into their respective series.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

That is true. However you cannot say Excadrill is not a strong pokemon.

Iris also did fairly well with Emonga and Axew in the tournament, beating a powerful Sawk and Golett.

While I don't think Iris is godly, she is definitely stronger than the previous 3 girls were at only 45 eps into their respective series.

At that time yes but with current situation im pretty sure all three May,Misty and Dawn are stronger than Iris at this point being more experienced and skilled compared to their early days.
Also for record just like Iris,Misty also wasnt rookie when she joined Ash already having some knowledge and perception about battling being more experienced than Ash at that point.Same goes for Brock at that time.

In terms of anime context, Iris was shown getting 99 wins in the past and just defeated Ash's Pikachu in a tournament. Whether people like it or not, Iris could be a contender for one of the strongest.

What other character ever did that?