CONTEST: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, etc. - Page 10

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  • Dawn

    25 17.73%
  • May

    43 30.50%
  • Brock

    15 10.64%
  • Misty

    23 16.31%
  • Iris

    19 13.48%
  • Cilan

    14 9.93%
  • Tracey

    2 1.42%
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Thread: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, etc.

  1. #136
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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    Being Champion of a fishing competition won't require you to have wide knowledge about Water-type Pokémon since it was Seaking he was fishing for.

    That's like saying that just because a person IRL is really good at fishing he must also have a wide knowledge of all kind of fishes or creatures in the sea, when all he really needs to know is how to fish. It's like saying that just because James is a scooping Master he knows a lot about different kind Water-types, which he doesn't. :P

    Andreas specified on catchin Seaking, nothing else for all we know. He battled just like a regular Trainer, which Misty also is. There was really nothing about him that made him stick out as stronger than a regular Trainer.
    Your generalizing things in here. In order to be skilled fisher its required to have good knowledge about air currents, position of algae where water pokemon tend to habit and places where they will searching for food. Something which was stated by Misty in episode.

    Being pretty good indication how Andreas wasn't only good at fishing one particular specie of pokemon( Seaking) but all kind of water types.
    Same goes in real life, if your good at fishing you have pretty good chance of catching all kind of fish and not just specific one.

    Further more he proved his battle abilities when his Poliwrath with ease was capturing other Seaking and releasing it away while Ash and Misty had trouble with Pikachu and Poliwhirl to catch even one. Something which especially came to expression during battle with Brock commenting how his Poliwrath is really strong not giving much chance to Misty.

    To be champion of some competition multiple times in a row and to have fully evolved pokemon of remarkable strength requires some skill and training.

    Hahahahaha, what? XD

    Wasn't it just a coincidence? As Misty was picking up her bag in the water Golduck's head was stuck inside it. He didn't choose her or something, Misty just ambushed it with hugs and took for granted that it was her Psyduck. How did Golduck really choose her?
    It didn't choose her directly, but it decided to stay with her and participate in battle because it trusted she had enough skill and abilities to let her command him. Skill of trainer isn't determined on how big and strong pokemon he has, but how effectively he will use them with Misty being more than enough up for this task having perfect control over fully evolved water pokemon.

    Something Marina and others commented as well at end of episode.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Your generalizing things in here. In order to be skilled fisher its required to have good knowledge about air currents, position of algae where water pokemon tend to habit and places where they will searching for food. Something which was stated by Misty in episode.

    Being pretty good indication how Andreas wasn't only good at fishing one particular specie of pokemon( Seaking) but all kind of water types.
    Same goes in real life, if your good at fishing you have pretty good chance of catching all kind of fish and not just specific one.

    Further more he proved his battle abilities when his Poliwrath with ease was capturing other Seaking and releasing it away while Ash and Misty had trouble with Pikachu and Poliwhirl to catch even one. Something which especially came to expression during battle with Brock commenting how his Poliwrath is really strong not giving much chance to Misty.

    To be champion of some competition multiple times in a row and to have fully evolved pokemon of remarkable strength requires some skill and training.
    And how exactly would knowing those things help him in battle? I never saw Andreas use any of that knowledge in battle, did you? That's only good for fishing.

    The thing is that he has been training for this for years. Of course he'd catch the Seaking with ease, if he's been training for the specific profession for years then naturally he's good at doing it.

    Nothing with Andreas made him stick out as a strongerer Trainer than usual. Having a Poliwrath is cool, with it being a fully evolved Pokémon and all, but nothing in his battle style implied for him to be something out of the ordinary.

    It didn't choose her directly, but it decided to stay with her and participate in battle because it trusted she had enough skill and abilities to let her command him. Skill of trainer isn't determined on how big and strong pokemon he has, but how effectively he will use them with Misty being more than enough up for this task having perfect control over fully evolved water pokemon.

    Something Marina and others commented as well at end of episode.
    You're right. It didn't choose Misty, Misty chose it. Golduck just stood there and did nothing when she hugged it and really didn't seem to care much. How can you say that it decided to participate in the battle because it trusted Misty and had faith in her abilties when there was absolutely nothing in the episode that implied for that? Nothing. It just stood there, and then decided to battle because it obviously liked Misty, just like it liked those others girls at the end of the episode.

    There's nothing that implied that only Misty would be the one to control it. I'm sure a completely new Trainer could control it as long it was a girl.

    Besides, how was it visable that Misty used strategies? All she did was for call out Hyper Beam, then Starmie was defeated. Is that indicating to massive knowledge about Water-types to you? Clearly it was Golduck who won, not Misty.
    Last edited by Chiplet; 29th December 2012 at 11:58 AM.
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  3. #138
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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post
    And how exactly would knowing those things help him in battle? I never saw Andreas use any of that knowledge in battle, did you? That's only good for fishing.

    The thing is that he has been training for this for years. Of course he'd catch the Seaking with ease, if he's been training for the specific profession for years then naturally he's good at doing it.

    Nothing with Andreas made him stick out as a strongerer Trainer than usual. Having a Poliwrath is cool, with it being a fully evolved Pokémon and all, but nothing in his battle style implied for him to be something out of the ordinary.
    First part of post wasn't referring to battle, but explaining how just because he was catching Seaking it can't be generalized how he is only good at catching one specific type of water pokemon.

    Also way i see it as ordinary trainers Misty battled against you can consider Marcellus, Sakura or Marina not showing somthing spectacular, but Andreas showed to be in one league ahead of them being much tougher opponent to battle against and one of hardest one Misty met during travels.

    Something which is beside the point, because it doesn't change fact how competition for which Andreas trains on daily basis working hard for it with many competitors out there trying to win it for years Misty won on first try proving she is excellent fisher but trainer as well. Since she defeated hardest opponent in his own game being more of a challenge when taken in account he managed to defend his title of champion for years.

    You're right. It didn't choose Misty, Misty chose it. Golduck just stood there and did nothing when she hugged it and really didn't seem to care much. How can you say that it decided to participate in the battle because it trusted Misty and had faith in her abilties when there was absolutely nothing in the episode that implied for that? Nothing. It just stood there, and then decided to battle because it obviously liked Misty, just like it liked those others girls at the end of the episode.

    There's nothing that implied that only Misty would be the one to control it. I'm sure a completely new Trainer could control it as long it was a girl.

    Besides, how was it visable that Misty used strategies? All she did was for call out Hyper Beam, then Starmie was defeated. Is that indicating to massive knowledge about Water-types to you? Clearly it was Golduck who won, not Misty.
    It was pretty self explanatory, common sense. If pokemon doesn't have enough faith in trainer abilities he won't listen to them or battle on his side. Something we had chance to see plenty of times in anime with Charizard , Mamoswine or Dragonite disobedience.

    Just because Golduck liked Misty as well other girls, there is no evidence how he would accept to battle on other girl side as well, or that they would control him efficiently in battle like Misty did.

    Also did i said anything about strategy? Your asking and answering instead of me, and for record it was Misty who decided what attacks to use, how to react to opposing moves and perform strike back. It wasn't Golduck who decided what attack and move set he is going to use against Marina Psyduck, Starmie tackle, light screen etc but Misty.

    She was person who command what approach and attacks to use being one who won battle, not Golduck. He was just powerful tool, not deciding for himself there.

    It was made clear in canon that it was Misty merit for winning that battle with Marina complimenting on her skills as trainer when she used fully evolved pokemon so well managing to defeat her.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    First part of post wasn't referring to battle, but explaining how just because he was catching Seaking it can't be generalized how he is only good at catching one specific type of water pokemon.

    Also way i see it as ordinary trainers Misty battled against you can consider Marcellus, Sakura or Marina not showing somthing spectacular, but Andreas showed to be in one league ahead of them being much tougher opponent to battle against and one of hardest one Misty met during travels.

    Something which is beside the point, because it doesn't change fact how competition for which Andreas trains on daily basis working hard for it with many competitors out there trying to win it for years Misty won on first try proving she is excellent fisher but trainer as well. Since she defeated hardest opponent in his own game being more of a challenge when taken in account he managed to defend his title of champion for years.
    Let's follow what we actually know, alright?

    From what we saw Andreas was just a regular Trainer, because what did he do that was sticking out and proving that he was much stronger than the others?

    In fishing he's definitely the better, but in battling? ...He's just fine, I guess.

    It was pretty self explanatory, common sense. If pokemon doesn't have enough faith in trainer abilities he won't listen to them or battle on his side. Something we had chance to see plenty of times in anime with Charizard , Mamoswine or Dragonite disobedience.

    Just because Golduck liked Misty as well other girls, there is no evidence how he would accept to battle on other girl side as well, or that they would control him efficiently in battle like Misty did.

    Also did i said anything about strategy? Your asking and answering instead of me, and for record it was Misty who decided what attacks to use, how to react to opposing moves and perform strike back. It wasn't Golduck who decided what attack and move set he is going to use against Marina Psyduck, Starmie tackle, light screen etc but Misty.

    She was person who command what approach and attacks to use being one who won battle, not Golduck. He was just powerful tool, not deciding for himself there.

    It was made clear in canon that it was Misty merit for winning that battle with Marina complimenting on her skills as trainer when she used fully evolved pokemon so well managing to defeat her.
    But it is so obvious that that's not the case here. We saw clearly how Golduck liked playing a hero role to impress on the girls, and it was so obvious that the only reason that he decided to listen to Misty was because she was a girl. It had nothing at all do with it having faith in her, because there was nothing that implied to that. And as long as you can't mention something that implies to that I will stand by my point. If Marina, or any other girl for that matter, had been the one to hug Golduck it would've battle for that girl if he thought she was pretty. That was the only thing with this episode, and that was why Golduck left for the other girls in te end of the episode.

    In the battle with Starmie Misty gave it one command, a move that she had seen it use previously, and that was Hyper Beam. That was enough to end the battle. Anyone could've done that as long as it's a girl. Can you give me some kind of proof to show that any girl wouldn't have been able to do what Misty did with Golduck? Any?

    Do you honestly think that when the writers created this episode, meant for comedy, they actually thought that Golduck would listen to Misty because she was an experience Water-type Trainer? Wasn't the whole point with the episode that Golduck only followed her because she was a girl? Think about it, it's so obvious.

    And you did mention strategies, actually.

    ''It wasn't Golduck who won battle for her, but Misty herself deciding what attacks and strategy to use winning on her own merit. ''

    The fact is that Misty only used one attack to take home the victory and used no strategies at all whatsoever proves my point. It was Golduck who won that battle, not Misty, because anyone would've used Hyper Beam after they saw how powerful it was against Team Rocket. I could've believed you if she actually used some strategical moves in that battle, but she didn't. Both of her battles were too short.
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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    If we can't base someone strength on assumptions, than you can't assume Starmie was weak either considering it never showed his true strength and what he can do revealing only total of two moves being in handful of battles. In nutshell insufficient data was present to form full judgment on it.

    Making your statement of being "non impressive" invalidated since your making such assumption only on few isolated scenes, instead of taking in account Starmie full strength. Which once again was never showed being throw away from cast too soon.

    Otherwise going by this logic we could also label May Venusaur or Ash Torterra as "weak" too considering how they didn't show nothing to write home about after evolution.
    Uh, no, not exactly. That's why I said for the most part, Starmie wasn't too impressive.from what we saw of it. Beating an Oddish is not impressive, being beaten by a Graveler and rather inexperienced Pidgeotto is not impressive. Grotle and Bulbasaur both showed to be somewhat good battler before evolutions, Turtwig being very strong and Bulbasaur being somewhat good. We saw neither from any of Starmie's battles.

    All Gyarados we saw so far in anime are resistant being capable of taking several strong hits, meaning same applies to Misty Gyarados. After all didn't we saw that same Gyarados resisting all three poison sting attacks from Tentacruel dealing with all of them at once? In Mastermind special when dr. Doom mirage pokemon like Zapdos, Articuno or Entei repelled Gyarados, Pikachu, Combusken etc attacks hitting them with their own being followed with Mewtwo barrage of attacks he was still capable of battling. So i suggest you rewatch 10th anniversary special again, because Gyarados was damaged but not defeated.
    You do know that no Pokemon was knocked out from that attack? And the special isn't even canon to the show either? Even then I don't see how surviving that attack says anything about Gyarados' endurance when every other Pokemon survived for the sake of the plot as well. I haven't seen the Cerulean Blues episode in a while, but surviving Poison Stings from three extremely incompetent trainers is not impressive and doesn't make me think Misty's Gyarados in any way has better endurance than any other Gyarados in this show.

    Speaking of Shedinja need i remind how we are talking about same pokemon which dominated over May, Ash and Brock pokemon not having any trouble in defeating them until Misty send out Gyarados. So no this attempt of downplaying Misty pokemon fails when taken in account how if it wasn't for blue snake they probably wouldn't stop Colonel Hanson.
    The only reason that happened was because the others didn't know that Shedinja's Wonder Guard ability could be bypassed by super effective moves, otherwise Swellow or Combusken would have sent that Bug into oblivion a long time ago.

    It battled Absol and Venusaur as Combusken, with battle against Venusaur being along the lines of forced DEM victory taking up more attacks than he normally should. As Blaziken aside from tying with Sceptile over who he had huge type advantage and winning in one double battle through Piplup help it wasn't portrayed as any more impressive, stronger than Gyarados was.
    Yes, it was, at least imo. Gyarados beats three pathetic Tentacruel and a Shedinja? Combusken beats an Absol, Venusaur, Grumpig, Vibrava, and ties against Ash's Sceptile for examples. Those three TR-look-a-likes are most certainly not skilled trainers. Whether or not you think Combusken's wins were DEM doesn't erase the fact that it showed to be a reliable and strong Pokemon many times.
    Speaking of Iris Dragonite majority of battles he won on his own, not through Iris guidance and skill so im not sure how much of merit his trainer should be given there.
    I never said that, I said that Dragonite is strong enough to single handily KO two Ice-types and try to take on Legendaries :P

    Talking about Gyarados battles he defeated Shedinja which was portrayed as highly powerful giving hard time to Ash and co,. and managed to blast away all three Tentacruel with just one attack. Whether those trio brothers were weak or not individually, when you attack with three pokemon on one power of their strength multiplies outnumbering opposing side. Fact that Misty Gyarados not only defeated but dominated on them speaks for itself how it was anything but "weakling".
    And we're going right back to the same thing before :P Beating three weak Tentacruel and a Shedinja is not impressive. That's like saying Pikachu or Chimchar knocking out multiple TR Pokemon on their own is impressive.

    No one ever said its more special, but if Misty pokemon possess same level of battle spirit than you can't consider them as inferior to May, Iris, Brock etc pokemon either.

    Speaking of countering strategies, let see: She countered Mantine strategy of whirlpool and bubblebeam with Staryu rapid spin, countered Quilfish pin missile with Goldeen fins, learned Gyarados flamethrower to give him ability to counter grass and bug types.

    As we can see through this examples, especially in Gyarados case Misty is teaching her pokemon how to counter opposing types and adapt to them. Therefore its safe to presume how she could come up with strategy to counter electric moves as well, being expected from someone who strive to become one type master to overcome his pokemon weakness.
    A movie mantine, goldeen being told to block a Pin Missile? Honestly, Misty's battling skills were not impressive. Teaching a Pokemon a new move says nothing about the strategic abilities of a trainer, many trainers in this show teach their Pokemon new moves to cover weaknesses, I don't see how Misty's is a standout.



    No but you can't use poorly written battles as evidence to go by in determining if Misty was skilled trainer or not, since her battles would be portrayed in different way if she was in anime during DP or BW era.
    But you're using Misty's battles yourself as a way of trying to show how you think Misty is a very strong trainer.

    And i already provided examples from Staryu, Corsola or Politoad battles which showed that Misty used strategy in some of her battles too displaying impressive knowledge and strategy.
    Maybe not on Ash level, but she surely showed more as trainer than Brock, Dawn or Cilan did imo.
    I'm sorry, but Misty's strategic skills were not better than Dawn's.

    There are different forms of strategy depending on trainer battle style what approach he is going to use. Using bubblebeam on exhausted Bulbasaur as counter measure to wear him down sooner before he could collect enough energy to launch solarbeam is called strategy. Same strategy we saw Ash using with Tauros against Drake Venusaur in Orange league attacking already tired pokemon to knock him down before he could fire solarbeam. Sounds familiar?
    Attacking a Pokemon head-on is not a strategy, it's just attacking. Cilan's and Ash's tag battle against the heaven and earth siblings was a nice example of strategy.
    And Seal( Dewgong) battle against TR counts, because against who he battles is irrelevant not erasing fact that it was proper battle.
    Beating Team Rocket who always fails in a non-proper battle is something I don't count. If it was a definite one on one in proper form, like Carnivine VS. Mamoswine, yes.

    Define average. In many battles May, Dawn, Iris, Brock or Cilan didn't showed any more than average trainer would with real indication of their skill and strength being based on matches when they did something remarkable.
    Misty's win record and overall skills on the show show it all.
    Something which applies to Misty just as much showing impressive move set and strategy in quite a few of her battles too being recognized as strong trainer, or her pokemon being viewed as especially powerful by several trainers out there. Such as Koga, Marina, Trinity, Dorian, Andreas, dr. Yung (in special he announced he intended to invite to his demonstration only skilled trainers) list continues.
    Iris was viewed as great by Cynthia, Shobu, Drayden, Dawn was viewed as skilled by Wallace, May, a vast amount of OCs, May was viewed as great by the likes of Savannah, Drew, Harley, etc. and a few others, what makes Misty's case such a stand-out? Being viewed by filler OCs as a skilled trainer happens every episode in this show and does not make me think of Misty as a very exceptional trainer.
    Also whether Misty was average by your standards or not, it doesn't diminish fact how she is more experienced as trainer than other Ash companions i listed are.Since she showed just as much skill and knowledge in battles like Cilan, Dawn, May etc did.
    More experience doesn't not equate to being a better trainer. She most certainly did not show more skill than Dawn or May, Cilan is trudging ahead of her even with his recent battles.

    So if i understand right you view Misty as average, rather weak trainer because she didn't battled much in anime? That's not valid indication to base someone strength on because how skilled someone is shouldn't be determined on how often he battles not having control over writer actions. For record Brock battled even less than Misty did using his pokemon less often, but i don't see you label him as weak trainer.
    Yeah, somewhat, I do. Misty hardly battled and when she did she usually lost. I'm suppose to believe a very very very strong trainer has a mediocre win-record and barely did anything?

    About Staryu you forgot to include defeat of TR Meowth there.
    :I Think about this for a second. TR's Meowth. Team Rocket's. Meowth.

    But since i presume you don't count TR battles than often wins over Arbok, Weezing, Lickitung or Victreebel can't be took in consideration. Regarding Corsola you forgot her win over Seaking in preliminary rounds of Whirl Cup and she wasn't technically defeated from Shedinja. Same applies to Politoad and his win over Magikarp there, as well win over Ash Totodile. If it counts he defeated Corsola too, during capture.
    Psyduck's win's over Lickitung can be counted since it was a formal battle, yes. But, honestly, taking those into consideration Misty was still pretty average her whole run.


    And what this has to do with anything? Just because she didn't battled same pokemon other Ash companions did, doesn't mean she would be any less successful against them than May or Iris were. You can't base Misty strength on imaginary scenes which never happened, because writers never had her confront such pokemon.And viceversa.

    Speaking of which Haxorous or Absol weren't any tougher pokemon to defeat than Trinity Gyarados which dominated whole tournament or Molly Mantine.
    I'm sorry, but Trinity is not more skilled than Drew and surely isn't more skilled than the strongest Unova Gym Leader. Again, it feels like you're grasping for straws if you're using Molly's dreamed up fake Mantine as an indicator that Misty's strong when every Pokemon was knocked out by her dreamed up Pokemon and Staryu most likely had it not cut away from the battle.


    Except Misty trained and worked on battle skills, improved as trainer during her run and showed notable progress between her leaving and return in cameos. Also she had more wins than loses during her run being recognized as manageable and experienced trainer who showed quick thinking, great deal of knowledge and ability to adapt to unfavorable situation.

    Back for in day pokemon standards Misty battle record can be considered as pretty good.
    We never really got much canon-stated evidence or scenes where we see Misty training for me to buy she's been training off-screen her whole run. In BW we have scenes of Ash and Iris training their Pokemon regularly at the beginning or ending of episodes and canon-stated evidence theres been offscreen training. I can't buy Misty training if we don't actually see her doing so regularly and get a mention of it.



    They are not assumptions. Knowing Starmie general strength and flexibility Misty pokemon definitely has predispositions to be considered as such as well. And Psyduck already showed to be extremely powerful never technically losing battle. Meaning he has huge potential just waiting to be brought on surface.
    Iris' Axew and Ash's Scraggy have huge potential just waiting to be brought on the surface too. :P

    In Dawn team Powerhouse is Mamoswine, not Piplup. Regarding Glaceon it still lost to less experienced coordinator at that time and his win over Brock Marshtamp can hardly go in his favor when taking in account under what circumstances(aka forced writing) he won.
    Piplup won by an extremely small margin, Misty losing to green trainers like Sakura is just worse.
    Somehow i fail to see how this examples can be considered as more impressive than Misty raise of Poliwag to powerful Politoad, Togepi growing in strong Togetic, Staryu becoming one of strongest members of her team etc.
    Misty raised Togepi into a strong Togetic? XD Really? The thing was a paper weight its entire Johto run pretty much and hardly did much in Kanto either, the only training scene I remember was the Headbutt thing in the Orange Islands and that lead no wehre. Poliwag's evolution into Politoed seemed more like advertisement for Gold & Silver, regardless I can buy it as a good job at raising a Pokemon. Well, I can buy that Staryu was one of the strongest of Misty's team. :P

    Once again define average.
    Average trainer would take years to come that far in competitions which Misty entered with many people failing and trying several times before winning some competition or coming very far in it.Average trainers wouldn't be able to beat much older people who have years of training and battling in their careers nor they would be able to make such big improvement in such short period of time.Only handful of people manage to do that.
    For example when Ash came top 16 in Kanto everyone viewed it as huge success for a 10 year old boy being impressive.
    Dawn coming to finals of GF on first try, Ash winning OI league, Misty coming top 8 in Whirl Cup or winning events like Princess festival on first try are indicators of this type of trainers having potential and talent which many other trainers lack.Why?
    Orange Islands, Ash earns four badges and.... Misty barely scrapes by with a win using a Golduck that wasn't hers against the likes of a run-of-the-mill trainer like Marina? Misty beats Jessie using Pokemon that weren't hers and Psyduck's Confusion-headaches?

    Dawn is the Grand Festival runner-up her first time and Iris is offered the position of Gym Leader by the strongest in Unova.

    Because they manage to come that far and improve in much shorter period of time than many other much older trainers did improving at faster pace.This is quality of someone being above average.Only handful of people out of thousands of trainers or coordinators in world managed to do what Ash, Misty, May etc so far did despite being younger with their talent making up for lack of experience.
    Ash and May, yes. Misty no, she was portrayed average.

    Fact that Misty was able to come among best 8 in big tournament which entered water trainers from whole world on first try, being able to become gym leader at such a young age, beating several experienced trainers like Andreas or Dorian who showed to be a challenge, winning various competitions like Princess festival or Seaking contest on first try etc were all pretty impressive achievements. Something it would take years for subpar trainers to achieve with many much older trainers having less success in such tournaments and competitions.
    Actually, I just checked Bulbapedia. Misty came in the Top 16 in the Whirlcup, she only beat Ash because of Psyduck's Confusion too. Poliwhirl defeating a Magikarp in the Preliminary rounds is not impressive. Her only technical non-luck win was against Harrison in a 1 on 1 battle.
    Whether you feel some of Ash traveling companions accomplished something of bigger value or not, it doesn't change fact that Misty was portrayed as something more than your typical run of a mill trainer.
    Except she was, Misty's win-record and skills were average her whole run in comparison to others like May, Dawn, and Iris especially. The former two were portrayed as being fast growing trainers and the latter a prodigy.
    Also your underestimating value of competitions Misty entered, while at same time giving more credit than deserved to achievements May, Dawn or Iris had. Entering Grand Festivals or defeating 99 COTD trainers about who we know nothing about is not something i would consider as more impressive than going to quarterfinals of tournament which was portrayed like some sort of water league for trainers who come from all parts the world to compete in it after every three years.
    Yes, Grand Festivals require five ribbons they just don't let any street trainer in like the Whirlcup. Grabbing 99 straight wins while you're 7 or 8 and not officially a trainer and only being brought to your knees by a Dragon Master? Yes.

    It reflects that she trained and raised her pokemon well with their resistance and speed showing they are in great shape. Which serves as indication that Misty knows how to train her pokemon properly and keep them in top form, which is quality of good trainer.
    Again, all Water-types in this shows, sans, Psyduck have been shown to be good swimmers. It would be a real stepping stone for Misty's training if she had trained her Psyduck to actually swim.


    Just like during every contest battle where Dawn or May won ribbon were treated as the most important coordinators, every competition like pokeringer, sumo conference, thriathlon etc Ash won was treated as most important competitor etc. Your point? You cannot diminish value of some tournament just because characters of no importance were opponents there.
    Jessie was the runner-up, that says it all.

    How many times we saw prestige tournaments being won by characters we hardly know something about such as Johto league being won by some Dickson, Whirl Cup being won by COTD with Feraligator, Kanto league being conquered by completely unknown trainer, Pokeathlon being won by some Daniel we hardly know much about etc along with gazillion of other tournaments main characters entered containing plenty of no name characters we hardly know much about.
    Club Battles have an array of trainers who we know something about and even the one-shots have names and a bit of character explanations, the Princess Tournament did not have that.


    Difference between them is that Misty was able to beat dozen of trainers and win whole tournament by controlling other pokemon perfectly like they are her own. Something which wasn't exactly case with Ash, Iris or Jessie.
    Your definitely missing the point in here. Misty is water type specialist dealing only with one type of pokemon most of time. Jessie, Ash, Dawn etc use all kind of pokemon types being used to them and how to use them efficiently. Meaning they will naturally have more experience in dealing with other types than on type specialist would. Fact that Mist showed to have knowledge and skill to battle with other types coming so far despite never using other type beside water before that is testament to her talent and versatility as trainer being highly skilled.
    Name how many beginner trainers who for their whole life used only one type would manage to battle so good with different types despite not having any experience about them before that?
    I'm sorry, but Misty win record is mediocre and nothing about her skills from me rewatching old episodes makes me see her as highly talented.


    For record Jessie perhaps isn't something to write home about, but Marina was certainly good trainer.
    The whole battle was literally a one-hit KO fest. Pedestrian trainers like Marina are not on par with likes of Zoey.


    Golduck was powerful pokemon, but it were Misty skills, choice of moves and knowledge which grant her win over Marina showing she has enough expertness and talent to put powerful tool to good use.
    I'm sorry, but Misty showed zero skill in that battle. She just ordered Hyper Beam and overpowered Starmie's Light Screen and won via 1-hit KO.

    Andreas was one of hardest trainers Misty ever came against being hold in high regard among all competitors in Seaking contest,
    Well, I can believe he's one of the strongest Misty ever faced.

    Harrison was definitely strong with Brock commenting how he knows a lot about water types like Corsola being old "sea wolf" which will be hard to defeat.
    Harrison was not strong. Brock said he knew a lot about Corsola, not all Water-types.

    Dorian was good enough to defeat Ash meaning he was anything but weakling,
    He did beat Ash's Totodile while battling underwater. Misty's Goldeen was beaten as well and Corsola beat Mantine and the battle was left unresolved with no official winner.
    Hanson was basically un stopable until Misty Gyarados came into play and Georgio was actually portrayed as strong trainer giving Misty hard time and beating Casey.
    Unstoppable because of Wonder Guard? Because I'm sure that if any trainer knew about it they would have KOed Shedinja in little time. Georgio beat Casey's least experienced Pokemon, Elekid. That doesn't scream strong to me.

    Not to mention beating someone fairly average like Stephan isn't something to brag about, especially in comparison with trainers like Paul.
    Stephan is not average, his Sawk won the whole Clubsplosion and went through Bianca's strongest Emboar, Cilan's Pansage, and Edmond's Seismitoad like butter. Then went onto beat Montogomery, last year's champion's Throh, this is the same Pokemon that made quick work of Iris' Excadrill. Sawk also was gonna knock out Krookodile had not Leavanny's Swarm powered him up to wear down Sawk. Stephan is easily stronger than anything Misty has ever battled her whole run, Trinity is the strongest Misty ever faced imo.


    And Misty Staryu defeated Butterfree, meaning how both sides had one pokemon left to use ending battle in a tie. Ash wasn't any better in battle for badge. As far as Totodile duel goes Ash won more on luck, accident than anything else there with Poliwhirl clearly dominating in battle until solar beam was used as last resort to turn tables around.
    Solar Beam was not luck, Ash used it from the start and Bulbasaur, unlike Pokemon in DP and BW, had a very believable charge time for the attack. Togepi beating Pikachu via emotion is not the power of a skilled trainer. Pikachu would have smashed Togepi if he didn't have a brotherly attachment to it.


    Rewatch battle again. Bulbasaur and Poliwag were evenly matched in battle with water gun successfully countering Bulbasaur grass attacks until he jumped taking down Misty pokemon by surprise, not skill. Afterwards when it evolved in Poliwhirl Bulbasaur was at complete disadvantage with body slam overpowering his tackle, Poliwhirl agility easily dodging razor leaf with Ash pokemon being extremely tired. Something Misty was aware of using bubble beam as pressure to finish of duel before Bulbasaur could fire solar beam, knowing it will take some time before he recharges counting on collapsing because of exhaustion before he could launch attack.

    Ash clearly won on luck there with only Bulbasaur extreme stubbornness and willpower keeping him in duel long enough to turn tide of duel in his favor. There was no skill or some extraordinary strategy involved from Ash side there at all with Misty being portrayed as pretty equal to him during whole match.
    I never said there was strategy, just like their was zero on Misty's part either. Except with Ash using Chikorita's Vine Whip the way he did against Staryu.



    Yet Misty fared better against him than Ash did. Also Marina and Georgio showed lot of knowledge and strategy during their battles being portrayed as strong trainers taking actual skill and good timing to defeat them. More so Georgio than Marina being portrayed as harder nut to beat but still.
    Georgio

    Marina(Wild Golduck)

    Jessie(Psyduck Confusion Headache :P)

    Harrison

    Hanson - Shedinja(WONDER GUARD 1HP :P)

    Misty's wins. Do you honestly think these trainers are better than what Iris, May, and Dawn faced?



    If we can use dialogue as proof to someone being skilled than we can play same card with Misty since several trainers during her travels viewed her as skilled, talented trainer. Whether its Marina from Orange Islands, Andreas, Sakura, Trinity or Dorian from Johto, Georgio or Casey from chronicles etc. You can't use examples from canon as support to fuel theory how Iris is skilled trainer, while disregarding every instance where Misty was portrayed or viewed as knowledgeable and talented trainer.
    Iris was shown as being a prodigy trainer from a young age and we had 2 episodes screaming that in our faces, Misty was not. Being recognized as decent trainer by Filler OCs is not impressive.
    If you really need factual info from canon watch Whirl Cup because it explained how preliminary rounds serve purpose of getting rid of weak and average trainers.Or all those times when more experienced trainers like Marina, Trinity ,Dorian describing her as very skilled water trainer.
    Also Misty last appearance showed that she is quite skilled as trainer with Max being fascinated with her Azurill and knowledge she showed.More than he was with May.
    Being interested in someone you just met >>>>> Being interested in someone you've known since you were a baby.

    Except canon showed how tournament contains hard competition with path to finals being anything but easy. Nevertheless we already went through this about using other pokemon. One type specialist using other types in such efficient way going all the way to top winning tournament on first try is indeed impressive if you ask me.
    Beating Jessie and filler OCs is not the hallmark of a powerful trainer, let alone with Psyduck's confusion.

    No one said it was, but if she can control other pokemon efficiently just like Iris, Ash etc can serves as pretty good indication how she is no less skilled and knowledgeable than they are.
    I don't count those wins for Ash, Max, Jessie, or Iris controlling other's Pokemon, so I certainly don't count Misty's.

    And what you counted isn't more impressive than Misty achievements.
    Princess Tournament, Whirl Cup Top 16, and winning a Seaking competition, keep in mind Andreas was the FISHING champ not the Battling champ. Definitely not impressive or in league with Dawn especially who was the runner-up of her first GF ever.

    Let see Misty managed to calm down out of control pokemon who was ready to wreck down whole gym and all people in it, reached to its heart and earned thrust and respect along with fixing cause of problem behind Gyarados disobedience in much, much shorter period of time than Ash could with Charizard, Dawn with Mamoswine or Iris with Dragonite.

    That my friend was indeed more special since she showed enough knowledge, courage and determination to resolve issue of disobedient pokemon much quicker than other trainers did.
    Misty controlling her Gyarados is not more special than Ash doing the same for Charizard, Iris with Dragonite, or Dawn with Mamoswine since they had an arc. of episodes to do so especially.


    In order to be gym leader that requires high level of knowledge, skill and ability to adapt to unexpected situations reacting accordingly to them. All those qualities Misty possess being recognized as competent and talented trainer by inspector Joy from league committee passing her test.

    Therefore her position as leader shows how she is indeed strong and competent trainer being above run of a mill trainer.

    Judging Misty abilities only by her loses, whilr turning blind eye to achievements when she showed her true abilities, by lack of battles she entered or by how evolved her team is isn't valid way to judge someone skills and potential.
    Okay let's see Misty's achievements......she made it to the Top 16 in the Whirlcup and....um....she won the Princess Tournament with Pokemon that weren't hers as well Psyduck's headache Psychic powers and um....she beat a fishing champion. :P


    It doesn't change fact how May win over Brock was "deux machina" with Eevee taking more attacks than he normally could with Brock leading whole time in match,just to have Eevee turn things in its favor somehow earning more points with worse strategy.
    Eevee's win was not a "Deus Ex Machina".

    A DEM refers to a sudden problem solver ending to a story, as if all of a sudden May found an Arceus Pokeball in her bag and it came out and revealed itself and killed the bad guy. Eevee was already established far prior to the episode and gained the upperhand with Tackle, a move it already knew.

    The term "DEM" is slowly losing its meaning on this site.


    Also once again you can't base Misty strength on imaginary scenes which never happened, because writers never had her confront such trainers.
    And how on world is May encounter against Brock or Iris against that kid with Golurk more impressive than Misty battles against trainer of high caliber such as Trinity who was runner up in Whirl Cup, Dorian or Andreas?

    Your giving way too much credit to trainers Iris or May battled against. They weren't showed nearly as special like trainers i just counted.
    May was made out to be a trainer with a fast learning curve, Iris was made out to be a prodigy. Misty was made out to be average. Trinity & Ash are the only impressive trainers she ever battled against.

    You forgot to add in my opinion. You failed to prove in any way that Misty was less skilled than May, Brock, Dawn, Cilan or Iris were downplaying achievements and trainers she defeated while giving way too much credit for my taste to challenges and people other Ash companions encountered. That seems to me more like use of double standards rather than anything else.

    Perhaps she isn't on Ash level but she certainly showed more knowledge and skill or just about as much like Brock, Dawn or Iris did not being joke of a trainer like some people try to make it be.
    Iris went up against Stephan, Drayden, and Ash, she beat Stephan and Ash and tied against Haxorus. She actually beat Ash in a non-sketchy way.(No Psyduck headaches) Dawn was the runner-up in her first GF ever and beat May and came close to beating Zoey. Misty never was made out to be little more than average her whole run.


    No, but how fast trainer improves is pretty good indication of how skilled and talented he is. Just like May, Misty showed huge improvement after taking over gym taming Gyarados teaching it moves unexpected for water type such as fire attacks. She was able to win several competitions on first try or come very far at them, something which takes many trainers years to come that far with hr skills as trainer growing very rapidly as we can see in original series being incomparably better trainer in Johto than she was in Kanto as well coming few steps forward since than if her performance in hosos and AG cameos, specials was anything to go by.
    Misty never showed huge improvement, May did and Dawn showed great improvement. Misty was average however in nearly all her battles.
    p.s. This debate instead of getting shorter is becoming longer than needed. Pretty pointless too since i know by past experience how in discussion it very rarely happens that opposing side change opinion or come to some sort of semi agreement, compromise.
    True, true XD
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 29th December 2012 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Two on one?
    Seems fair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiplet View Post

    Let's follow what we actually know, alright?

    From what we saw Andreas was just a regular Trainer, because what did he do that was sticking out and proving that he was much stronger than the others?

    In fishing he's definitely the better, but in battling? ...He's just fine, I guess.
    Again your missing the point in here. Whether Andreas was above common trainer or not(although he showed to be stronger than most other trainers Misty battle against), it doesn't change outcome that Misty was able to win Seaking tournament on first try defeating someone who was champion of it for years. Many competitors tried to beat Andreas over the years, he had a lot more experience than Misty had training for years with his Poliwrath showing to posses more strength than her pokemon.However Misty still outsmart him at his own game managing to defeat fully evolved Poliwrath with Poliwhirl who was in inferior position.

    That in itself counts for something with Misty being skilled trainer imo.

    But it is so obvious that that's not the case here. We saw clearly how Golduck liked playing a hero role to impress on the girls, and it was so obvious that the only reason that he decided to listen to Misty was because she was a girl. It had nothing at all do with it having faith in her, because there was nothing that implied to that. And as long as you can't mention something that implies to that I will stand by my point. If Marina, or any other girl for that matter, had been the one to hug Golduck it would've battle for that girl if he thought she was pretty. That was the only thing with this episode, and that was why Golduck left for the other girls in te end of the episode.

    In the battle with Starmie Misty gave it one command, a move that she had seen it use previously, and that was Hyper Beam. That was enough to end the battle. Anyone could've done that as long as it's a girl. Can you give me some kind of proof to show that any girl wouldn't have been able to do what Misty did with Golduck? Any?

    Do you honestly think that when the writers created this episode, meant for comedy, they actually thought that Golduck would listen to Misty because she was an experience Water-type Trainer? Wasn't the whole point with the episode that Golduck only followed her because she was a girl? Think about it, it's so obvious.

    And you did mention strategies, actually.

    ''It wasn't Golduck who won battle for her, but Misty herself deciding what attacks and strategy to use winning on her own merit. ''

    The fact is that Misty only used one attack to take home the victory and used no strategies at all whatsoever proves my point. It was Golduck who won that battle, not Misty, because anyone would've used Hyper Beam after they saw how powerful it was against Team Rocket. I could've believed you if she actually used some strategical moves in that battle, but she didn't. Both of her battles were too short.
    If that was the case explain why Golduck didn't choose Marina instead of Misty? He didn't needed to stay with her, he could choose any other girl and battle on her side but it was still Misty who was choose.

    Trying to impress girls doesn't count for anything, since there is no guarantee how other girls would have same success with Golduck in battle providing it would even accept to battle on their side.

    How many times did we saw wild pokemon being hard to control taking large amount of skill and effort to gain their trust and respect?

    You say how it was solely Golduck merit or winning battle, completely ignoring fact that it was Misty who selected attacks and counter strategies. Having powerful pokemon on your side wont mean anything if you can't control his power or aren't skilled enough to use it properly in battle. We can see that with Iris Dragonite, but perhaps best example would be Jessie and James from TR.

    In battle park Jessie had two strong pokemon on her side( Charizard and Blastoise) messing up big time using awful tactic and poor battle abilities regardless of fact how this pokemon were trained to listen anyone in park area.

    That was clear example where fully evolved powerhouse wont add to anything if person who works with him don't know how to canalize that strength.

    Same applies to Charizard and Aggron TR borrowed when battling Ash and Brock failing miserably because of poor skills.

    Misty on other hand showed enough knowledge and ability as trainer to know how to use powerful tool to her advantage and win battle.

    As matter of fact i suggest that you rewatch battle because prior to Starmie, Misty used Golduck against Psyduck commanding to turn wave(psychic attack)against itself. When battling Starmie, Golduck used fury swipes against Starmie tackle. After that Starmie answered with bubble attack, with Misty deciding to use hyper beam to finish of battle breaking through light screen.

    Also factual proof that Misty was portrayed as skilled water trainer comes from fact how Marina and others recognized Misty abilities as trainer when she was able to control fully evolved wild pokemon in battle and use it so well against her.

    Marina was anything but weak trainer and whether you want to admit it or not it was required knowledge and skill from Misty side to properly utilize wild pokemon in battle.
    Not everyone would be equal to such task.

    Way i see it there's nothing to debate in here only wasting our time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Burch View Post
    Uh, no, not exactly. That's why I said for the most part, Starmie wasn't too impressive.from what we saw of it. Beating an Oddish is not impressive, being beaten by a Graveler and rather inexperienced Pidgeotto is not impressive. Grotle and Bulbasaur both showed to be somewhat good battler before evolutions, Turtwig being very strong and Bulbasaur being somewhat good. We saw neither from any of Starmie's battles.
    You can't play double game in here. If your going to completely ignore fact how Misty Starmie wasn't used enough to reveal true strength, full move set and what he is capable of doing and base someone strength only on what was showed than you can't view Ash Torterra or May Venusaur as impressive pokemon since they in evolved forms didn't showed anything special. In fact they were even worse with Torterra having less of success than it did as Turtwig, Grotle. Same applies to Dawn Quilava.

    You do know that no Pokemon was knocked out from that attack? And the special isn't even canon to the show either? Even then I don't see how surviving that attack says anything about Gyarados' endurance when every other Pokemon survived for the sake of the plot as well. I haven't seen the Cerulean Blues episode in a while, but surviving Poison Stings from three extremely incompetent trainers is not impressive and doesn't make me think Misty's Gyarados in any way has better endurance than any other Gyarados in this show.
    So let me get this straight. When i provide examples to counter your argument you pin it on "plot armor", while at same time using examples where Misty pokemon were in unfavorable position as ammunition to your view.

    If we are going to debate in such way, than any lose and failure from Misty pokemon can be apply to being done for "sake of plot" as well not being credible indication/ source on which we can determine if Misty was skilled trainer or not.
    Fact is that Misty Gyarados wasn't portrayed as any weaker, inferior than majority of Gyarados we saw in this show. If not even more impressive than gym leader Wake Gyarados was with his move set being much more diverse and productive. Such as whirlpool, hyperbeam, hydropump, protect, flamethrower and headbutt. If "Cerulean Blue"was something to go by 4 move limit clause" wasn't applied here.

    Speaking of trio brothers even if they were incompetent individually, it doesn't change fact how they used three pokemon against one hitting Gyarados with multiple attacks. Nor it change fact how Gyarados with ease with one tail swift repelled all of the, countered their bubblebeam and sliced through triple hydropump with hyper beam defeating them with ease making it anything but "weakling".

    For record you said all pokemon survived attacks in Mastermind special. Well since Misty pokemon proved to not be any less resistant than Ash or May were than she isn't inferior trainer, is she?

    The only reason that happened was because the others didn't know that Shedinja's Wonder Guard ability could be bypassed by super effective moves, otherwise Swellow or Combusken would have sent that Bug into oblivion a long time ago.
    Anime=/=games. Shedinja was actually very strong pokemon with Ash, Pikachu, Brock Mudkip or any of May pokemon not being able to reach through its defenses.
    In fact if it wasn't for Gyarados flamethrower they probably wouldn't defeat it.

    Also for record Ash and May used Torchic and Taillow, during that time they haven't evolved.

    Yes, it was, at least imo. Gyarados beats three pathetic Tentacruel and a Shedinja? Combusken beats an Absol, Venusaur, Grumpig, Vibrava, and ties against Ash's Sceptile for examples. Those three TR-look-a-likes are most certainly not skilled trainers. Whether or not you think Combusken's wins were DEM doesn't erase the fact that it showed to be a reliable and strong Pokemon many times.
    Portraying Misty opponents as pathetic while glorifying May opponents wont exactly help to prove your point. Those Tentacruels weren't that bad at all actually giving quite hard time to Misty Corsola which battled much more skilled and experienced trainers than those brothers were, and no matter what you say canon showed how Hanson Shedinja was indeed strong pokemon.

    Way i see it Gyarados slashing through three Tentacruel, defeating Hanson pokemon with ease as well being able to stand its ground against dr. Doom overpowered mirage pokemon proved more than enough how he is strong and reliable pokemomn. Just as much as May Blaziken is, was.

    Also im counting Mastermind special because we have to work with what got due to lack of screen time Gyarados received being showed rarely.

    I never said that, I said that Dragonite is strong enough to single handily KO two Ice-types and try to take on Legendaries :P
    In other words we can say how Dragonite abilities exceed its trainer current level of skill and strength?

    A movie mantine, goldeen being told to block a Pin Missile? Honestly, Misty's battling skills were not impressive. Teaching a Pokemon a new move says nothing about the strategic abilities of a trainer, many trainers in this show teach their Pokemon new moves to cover weaknesses, I don't see how Misty's is a standout.
    Your straying away from subject. First you said Misty never showed any strategy with her pokemon with examples i counted from canon such as Goldeen, Staryu or Poliwhirl disputing that.

    Than you said how Misty didn't showed any ability to be able to come up with counter strategies and moves against pokemon water types might be at disadvantage against. Something which obviously isn't true with fact that Misty Gyarados learned flame thrower ever since she took control of it proving how Misty indeed works on moves through which she can counter opposing types. In this case Gyarados flamethrower giving him edge in battle against grass, bug types. Sam applies to Goldeen or Staryu examples showing ability to come up with strategy to counter opposing moves from other water types.

    But you're using Misty's battles yourself as a way of trying to show how you think Misty is a very strong trainer.
    I never said Misty is very strong, but strong trainer. There exists difference, and my argument applied to poorly written battles from OS era not all. Im providing examples from Misty battles which can be considered as well, or decently written where Misty showed strategy or impressive moves from her pokemon showing she has potential and talent as trainer being ahead of many people they met on travels.

    I'm sorry, but Misty's strategic skills were not better than Dawn's.
    Except they were. Misty showed more knowledge about pokemon, more skill during her battles and ability to come up with unexpected attacks to turn opponent strength against himself catching them on surprise. In comparison her pokemon like Poliwhirl, Corsola, Gyarados or Staryu showed more raw strength and ability than most of Dawn team did barring exceptions like Mamoswine, Togekiss or Piplup.

    Keep in mind that im talking about Dawn abilities as trainer, not what she showed as coordinator. Obviously as coordinator Dawn is ahead of Misty by miles, but as trainer in real battles if her performance was something to go by she didn't showed anything exceptional or amazing to be considered as more skilled than Misty was having naturally less experience there.

    Attacking a Pokemon head-on is not a strategy, it's just attacking. Cilan's and Ash's tag battle against the heaven and earth siblings was a nice example of strategy.
    Just because Cilan and Ash used better strategy doesn't mean Misty didn't used any strategy at all against Ash in that battle.

    Canon showed how she purposely commanded Poliwhirl bubble beam hoping it will knock him down before solar beam gets fired, using strategy of anticipating opponent attack with counter attack.

    Same type of strategy was used by Ash in Orange league against Drake, agaimnst Kingdra hydropump in Whirl Cup, Burgh Dwebble in Unova etc.

    Beating Team Rocket who always fails in a non-proper battle is something I don't count. If it was a definite one on one in proper form, like Carnivine VS. Mamoswine, yes.
    In that case i presume you count Misty battle against James pokemon in "Stun Spore Detour". First battle was between Victreebel and Goldeen who defeated it, while second with Staryu against Weezing who got defeated as well.

    Misty's win record and overall skills on the show show it all.
    And they showed how she was strong, talented trainer making rather rapid improvement in short period of time.

    Iris was viewed as great by Cynthia, Shobu, Drayden, Dawn was viewed as skilled by Wallace, May, a vast amount of OCs, May was viewed as great by the likes of Savannah, Drew, Harley, etc. and a few others, what makes Misty's case such a stand-out? Being viewed by filler OCs as a skilled trainer happens every episode in this show and does not make me think of Misty as a very exceptional trainer.
    Yet your using that same argument in Iris or May case stating how they were portrayed as skilled trainers in anime with canon stating that. Something which was stated in canon regarding Misty as well with several authorities or highly skilled trainers whether its PIA inspector Joy, Dorian, Trinity etc viewing her as excellent and skilled water trainer.

    If your going to use what was said and portrayed in canon as proof to support theory how Iris, Dawn, May etc were strong trainers, than im afraid you will have to concede and admit that Misty was just as strong trainer as well.

    Whether you feel writers failed in decanting her skills as trainer on screen appropriately along with relatively simplified battles being written in Kanto and Johto not helping either, it doesn't change fact how Misty was indeed portrayed as skilled and knowledgeable water trainer.

    More experience doesn't not equate to being a better trainer. She most certainly did not show more skill than Dawn or May, Cilan is trudging ahead of her even with his recent battles.
    Cilan more skilled than Misty? On what ground?

    Let see he managed to defeat Burgundy which is joke of trainer not winning any battle she was in and his brother Chilli who wasn't something special. In Club battle tournament he managed to defeat Trip who was one of weakest rivals Ash so far had with his only strong pokemon being Serperior, being followed with quick lose against Luke Larvesta.

    In Clubsplosion he wasn't much better either again dropping early from competition. After filler character Flora he was stopped by Stephan Sawk.

    Against Skyla we saw another defeat, and while in Junior Cup he managed to came farther his opponents until Trip were rather average .

    Now don't get me wrong Cilan is good trainer, but he didn't showed in any way that he is more skilled than Misty is with his win-lose record as well what was showed from his pokemon team not being any more impressive than what we saw from Misty.

    Yeah, somewhat, I do. Misty hardly battled and when she did she usually lost. I'm suppose to believe a very very very strong trainer has a mediocre win-record and barely did anything?
    First of all Misty won more battles than she lost and hardly battling doesn't equate being weak trainer. Brock hardly battled too, yet i don't see you saying how he was weak.

    Also regarding Misty activity as character, its not quantity which matters but appeal someone brings to show and value of his deeds. Misty wasn't central character like Ash or Dawn was but she certainly did things bringing humor, good dynamic, helped in Ash growth as trainer and had several memorable moments contributing to resolution of plots.

    :I Think about this for a second. TR's Meowth. Team Rocket's. Meowth.
    If i recall right you said your going to count any TR battle which was proper one on one. So im not sure wheres problem in here?

    I'm sorry, but Trinity is not more skilled than Drew and surely isn't more skilled than the strongest Unova Gym Leader. Again, it feels like you're grasping for straws if you're using Molly's dreamed up fake Mantine as an indicator that Misty's strong when every Pokemon was knocked out by her dreamed up Pokemon and Staryu most likely had it not cut away from the battle.
    Nor i said that but she didn't seemed as much behind them either.

    Speaking of Molly i don't know about you but ability to quickly get Staryu out of trap made from whirlpool and bubble beam turning tide of duel in her favor, with take down being on equal strength with powered by Unown mirage pokemon is pretty good indication of Misty skills knowing how to adapt to new situations and turn opponent attacks against himself.In comparison Brock lost easily to Molly with none of his pokemon being able to be on pair with mirage ones, while Misty were able to stand up their ground coming of as stronger, more resistant.

    So that has to count for something too.

    We never really got much canon-stated evidence or scenes where we see Misty training for me to buy she's been training off-screen her whole run. In BW we have scenes of Ash and Iris training their Pokemon regularly at the beginning or ending of episodes and canon-stated evidence theres been offscreen training. I can't buy Misty training if we don't actually see her doing so regularly and get a mention of it.
    In order for trainer pokemon to gain enough experience to evolve, learn new attacks or become stronger training is required. Since Misty Polwhirl got progressively stronger as time went, Corsola becoming more resistant and flexible with same applying to Staryu its safe to conclude how Misty indeed trained her pokemon.
    It was rarely showed on screen but it happened of screen with several references confirming that.

    For example in episode during Whirl Islands "Plant it now, Diglett Later" Ash makes a mention that they recently competed in the Whirl Cup, and Misty mentions that all the hours of training that she put in with Corsola gave her the edge in the competition.

    That's direct reference to off-screen training for Misty. Same goes for "Octillery the Outcast" where Misty asks Marcellus to have sparing training with Corsola against Remoraid not having chance to train it much yet. Etc, etc.

    Iris' Axew and Ash's Scraggy have huge potential just waiting to be brought on the surface too. :P
    Difference between Iris Axew and Misty pokemon is that Iris isn't doing much to bring his potential out with most attention being directed toward Dragonite. While Misty constantly trains and battle at gym being safe to say shes working with Starmie too. Something which applies top Psyduck as well clearly showing desire to teach him swim in chronicles and work on his battle abilities.

    Piplup won by an extremely small margin, Misty losing to green trainers like Sakura is just worse.
    Except Misty lost to Sakura as gym leader,. Her job as leader was to test out trainers and determine if he is ready to qualify and participate in league. Not to crush them, otherwise rookies and subpar trainers would never be able to earn any of badges since gym leaders are on much higher level.

    Also Sakura wasn't as "green" as she once was when she met Misty again in chronicles anymore, working with Espeon a lot since last time they battled having several earned badges from Kanto at that time.

    Misty raised Togepi into a strong Togetic? XD Really? The thing was a paper weight its entire Johto run pretty much and hardly did much in Kanto either, the only training scene I remember was the Headbutt thing in the Orange Islands and that lead no wehre. Poliwag's evolution into Politoed seemed more like advertisement for Gold & Silver, regardless I can buy it as a good job at raising a Pokemon. Well, I can buy that Staryu was one of the strongest of Misty's team. :P
    Whatever you may think of Togepi, yes that egg pokemon was remarkably strong. His strength couldn't be controlled and he was of no use in regular battles but his Metronom attacks were devastating crushing down everything with earth. Such as demolition of Butch and Cassidy TR base along with Drowzey, making huge tunnel through mountain leaving big hole in it when Tr mecha Arbok was about to crash into it etc.

    He wasn't any weaker as Togetic too, but only stronger proving to be more than enough capable to protect Togepi Paradise and princess Sara kingdom if needed from any bane.

    Orange Islands, Ash earns four badges and.... Misty barely scrapes by with a win using a Golduck that wasn't hers against the likes of a run-of-the-mill trainer like Marina? Misty beats Jessie using Pokemon that weren't hers and Psyduck's Confusion-headaches?

    Dawn is the Grand Festival runner-up her first time and Iris is offered the position of Gym Leader by the strongest in Unova.
    Average: someone who is typical, ordinary not bouncing from majority.

    Average, common run of mill trainers don't make rapid improvement, big steps forward in short period of time. Something Misty was portrayed as being capable to do so They don't enter competitions and win them on first try outsmarting and intercepting older, more experienced trainers than they are such as Seaking contest, Princess tournament, Alto Mare race etc?

    They don't place high in prestige tournaments on first try such as Whirl Cup, don't hold gym leader position at such young age with only handful of people being qualified and skilled enough for this place.

    Average trainers are huge masses we see on daily bases such as all those competitors in Seaking contest or Princess festival failing to qualify for finale, trainers like Marcellus in Whirl Cup which failed to pass beyond preliminary rounds trying for years to win some competition

    Something Misty was portrayed as being capable to do so showing better knowledge, sharper skill and ability to adapt to unexpected situations than most of peers at her age did.

    Majority of trainers who entered competitions i mentioned were either her peers or much older trying for years to win something which she managed to do on first try.
    If she was among typical average group than explain how she was able to come further in shorter period of time than most of other trainers we see didn't managed despite trying for years?

    Examples i mentioned and Misty notable improvement in short period of time are quality of very talented trainer who was able to become better in shorter amount of time than several much older trainers ever did.
    Take for example Brock father Flint he came back to Pewter after failing to become exceptionally strong trainer not having required skill. Unlike him Misty manage already at 10 to come further than he did for his whole life.

    Why?Because she is more talented. Same applies to Brock, May, Ash etc.

    For how many people at Misty age we can say they managed to achieve several noteworthy achievements such as "champion of Princess tournament", "Winner of Seaking contest" defeating several years in row champion, "winner of Alto Mare Race", "top 16 in Whirl Cup"with just recently caught pokemon(Corsola), being gym leader(position which only minority of people holds) etc???

    Along with beating several experienced water trainers at much older age being recognized as talented water specialist.

    Needless to say she is only girl aside from Iris which managed to defeat Ash outsmarting him in battle with her rapid improvement as trainer and build up of pokemon team in Johto and chronicles showing she has fast learning curve standing out from most of young trainers at her age.

    You say winning Princess tournament isn't impressive because Jessie was in it, and because she used pokemon which weren't hers? Going by that logic Dawn coming top 2 in GF isn't anything special either since Jessie made to semifinals there. And for record Misty using other pokemon is irrelevant when taken in account how she showed to have knowledge and skill to battle with other types coming so far despite never using other type beside water before that.

    You say winning against Marina with wild Golduck wasn't impressive?
    Yet it was proven countless times in past how powerful pokemon wont mean much if your not knowledgeable and skilled enough to use them properly. Not everyone is capable of controlling wild pokemon and utilizing their strength in appropriate way. Sure you could say how Golduck only listened to girls because he wanted to impress them but it doesn't change fact that Golduck choose Misty over Marina having perfect control over him in battle winning through her own strategy and attacks.

    That my friend is not quality of typical "run of a mill" trainers who wouldn't accomplish half of things Misty did.

    Actually, I just checked Bulbapedia. Misty came in the Top 16 in the Whirlcup, she only beat Ash because of Psyduck's Confusion too. Poliwhirl defeating a Magikarp in the Preliminary rounds is not impressive. Her only technical non-luck win was against Harrison in a 1 on 1 battle.
    Whether it was 8 or 16, out of 64 participants that's impressive achievement.

    Regarding win over Ash, no matter how you look at it Misty was more skilled than Ash was there. Poliwhirl defeated Totodile with ease and if Psyduck didn't messed up situation Misty would use Corsola which had pretty good chance to win judging by its performance vs Trinity defeating Gyarados with only one attack.
    On top of that if anyone showed to be incompetent in that match it was Ash because of being stupid enough to forget about Psyduck headache using worst possible strategy, with Misty taking advantage out of situation rightfully winning.

    So no, don't play card on me how Misty won on luck there because Ash stupidity and lame strategy sealed duel for him.

    And just to let know in match between Poliwhirl and Totodile luck wasn't involved.

    Yes, Grand Festivals require five ribbons they just don't let any street trainer in like the Whirlcup. Grabbing 99 straight wins while you're 7 or 8 and not officially a trainer and only being brought to your knees by a Dragon Master? Yes.
    Just for info; in Whirl Cup not anyone can join and compete with purpose of preliminary rounds being to get rid of weak trainers which aren't up to task.
    Once again your over glorifying value of their achievements. Wining 5 ribbons and coming top 2 in GF with relatively average competition, or battling 99 sub par trainers which couldn't deal with Drillbur being defeated by gym leader isn't more impressive than coming top 8 in prestige tournament with high competition,

    Again, all Water-types in this shows, sans, Psyduck have been shown to be good swimmers. It would be a real stepping stone for Misty's training if she had trained her Psyduck to actually swim.
    True, but fact that Misty Corsola was more resistant, faster swimmer than rest of competition in that race is direct proof how she trained it better and kept in excellent shape being quality of strong trainer which knows its job, rather than weakling which just wriggles through events.


    Jessie was the runner-up, that says it all.
    We can say same about Jessie reaching semi finals of Sinnoh Grand Festival serving as "proof" how Dawn only came far because of battling weak opponents.

    HClub Battles have an array of trainers who we know something about and even the one-shots have names and a bit of character explanations, the Princess Tournament did not have that.
    Irrelevant. Knowing more about character doesn't prove he is stronger trainer than someone we know nothing about. We don't know how skilled girls Misty battled in Princess festival were.

    I'm sorry, but Misty win record is mediocre and nothing about her skills from me rewatching old episodes makes me see her as highly talented.
    Your dodging my question, winning competitions on first try outsmarting most of peers there is quality of talented, not subpar trainer. Her win record in battles is no lower than Cilan, Dawn and higher than Brock.


    The whole battle was literally a one-hit KO fest. Pedestrian trainers like Marina are not on par with likes of Zoey.
    What makes you think Marina was "pedestrian" trainer? She wasn't on pair with Zoey but she was by no means weak trainer. Her Psyduck showed to be quite powerful with his psychic abilities with Ash and Tracey acknowledging his strength and her Starmie was actually on pair with highly powerful Golduck until very end. Granted not much was seen from Tentacruel, but judging by performance rest of team showed its safe to assume he is well trained pokemon too.


    I'm sorry, but Misty showed zero skill in that battle. She just ordered Hyper Beam and overpowered Starmie's Light Screen and won via 1-hit KO.
    Re read what i wrote in top of post. It was Misty knowledge and choice of attacks which won battle.

    Harrison was not strong. Brock said he knew a lot about Corsola, not all Water-types.
    Just because it was said he knows a lot about Corsola which was brought up because that pokemon battled, doesn't prove he doesn't know much about other water types or isn't strong trainer either.

    Your making mistake in here wrongly assuming how Harrison was weak trainer because it wasn't stated how he is strong. In other words "fallacy of composition".

    Fact that Harrison passed preliminary rounds showed he was among more skilled 32 participants with his Quilfish showing high level of experience along with trainers itself being knowledgeable.

    He did beat Ash's Totodile while battling underwater. Misty's Goldeen was beaten as well and Corsola beat Mantine and the battle was left unresolved with no official winner.
    Doesn't change fact how Misty showed to be more adaptive, skilled in battles in water element than Ash did.


    Unstoppable because of Wonder Guard? Because I'm sure that if any trainer knew about it they would have KOed Shedinja in little time. Georgio beat Casey's least experienced Pokemon, Elekid. That doesn't scream strong to me.
    But they didn't with Misty being only one which knew how to stop him showing bigger knowledge there than Ash or May.

    Additionally it was not Georgio battle against Casey, but Misty which showed how he is strong, experienced trainer.

    Stephan is not average, his Sawk won the whole Clubsplosion and went through Bianca's strongest Emboar, Cilan's Pansage, and Edmond's Seismitoad like butter. Then went onto beat Montogomery, last year's champion's Throh, this is the same Pokemon that made quick work of Iris' Excadrill. Sawk also was gonna knock out Krookodile had not Leavanny's Swarm powered him up to wear down Sawk. Stephan is easily stronger than anything Misty has ever battled her whole run, Trinity is the strongest Misty ever faced imo.
    Bianca, Cilan and Edmond are not exceptionally powerful trainers. In fact they are nowhere near to caliber of skill Gary, Paul, Conway or Tyson from AG showed.

    Ash can be annotated as highly skilled trainer, but Stephan was never showed as anything special being only slightly above average.

    So no Iris defeating Stephan isn't exactly something which would serve as sustainable proof that she is indeed stronger trainer than Misty is.

    Solar Beam was not luck, Ash used it from the start and Bulbasaur, unlike Pokemon in DP and BW, had a very believable charge time for the attack. Togepi beating Pikachu via emotion is not the power of a skilled trainer. Pikachu would have smashed Togepi if he didn't have a brotherly attachment to it.
    No he didn't. Ash commanded Bulbasaur solar beam only as last resort after everything else failed with Poliwhirl strength and speed outclassing Bulbasaur physical or long range attacks like razor leaf.

    Even so Bulbasaur was on last lags being completely exhausted managing to charge enough for solarbeam only because Misty underestimated level of his will power, stubbornness not being known if he will be knocked out by bubblebeam before he could charge enough until last moment.

    That's not skill by sheer luck which rolled on Ash side allowing him to win there.
    Also who is talking about Togepi in here? Your changing subject again.

    I never said there was strategy, just like their was zero on Misty's part either. Except with Ash using Chikorita's Vine Whip the way he did against Staryu.
    Misty using Poliwhirl bubble to knock Bulbasaur before he could lunch solar beam is clear example of textbook strategy trying to intercept opponent counter attack with your own.

    Misty's wins. Do you honestly think these trainers are better than what Iris, May, and Dawn faced?
    Jessie or Marina no. However Trinity, Andreas, Harrison or Dorian were not any easier challenge Misty battled against than most adversaries Iris, May or Dawn faced.

    Iris was shown as being a prodigy trainer from a young age and we had 2 episodes screaming that in our faces, Misty was not. Being recognized as decent trainer by Filler OCs is not impressive.
    Use of double standards. When its for Iris mentioned in canon how she is skilled trainer you use it to your advantage, while disregarding exact same thing being said for Misty in canon as well.

    If your going to use what was said in canon as proof how Iris is skilled, than you have to accept that same thing for Misty as well and what canon delivered.

    Being interested in someone you just met >>>>> Being interested in someone you've known since you were a baby.
    This doesn't even make any sense. Clarify.

    I don't count those wins for Ash, Max, Jessie, or Iris controlling other's Pokemon, so I certainly don't count Misty's.
    Except Misty wins happened in official tournament defeating dozen of other trainers. Its irrelevant that she used other pokemon actually going in her favor because she proved not only that she can command pokemon from other trainers just as well as their owners would which necessitates certain amount of skill, but also showed flexibility in knowing how to utilize other types as well regardless of being mono trainer.

    Princess Tournament, Whirl Cup Top 16, and winning a Seaking competition, keep in mind Andreas was the FISHING champ not the Battling champ. Definitely not impressive or in league with Dawn especially who was the runner-up of her first GF ever.
    Andreas was champion of Seaking contest yes, but he was also portrayed as strong and knowledgeable trainer.
    You often use Dawn second place in GF as indication to go by that she was skilled trainer. But here's the difference, she showed great skills as coordinator but as trainer both against Maylene, Ash or Iris didn't showed anything extraordinary or of big value to warrant be considered as stronger trainer than Misty was. Being good coordinator doesn't prove your going to be just as successful as trainer being two different worlds. Needless to say need i remind how competition in Dawn GF festival made of Jessie, Kenny, Nando was weaker than opponents May faced in her GF.

    Misty controlling her Gyarados is not more special than Ash doing the same for Charizard, Iris with Dragonite, or Dawn with Mamoswine since they had an arc. of episodes to do so especially.
    Except she tamed and controlled Gyarados in much, much shorter period of time than Ash, Dawn or Iris did showing better knowledge how to approach to disobedient pokemon and earn their thrust.

    That's the difference.


    Okay let's see Misty's achievements......she made it to the Top 16 in the Whirlcup and....um....she won the Princess Tournament with Pokemon that weren't hers as well Psyduck's headache Psychic powers and um....she beat a fishing champion. :P
    She made it to quarterfinals in Whirl Cup. Won Princess festival with other pokemon types proving she is capable of utilizing great all other types and not only water which is pretty impressive since she as mono specialist never battled with fire, electric or grass type before revealing her quick adaption and flexibility as trainer.

    And defeated Andreas who was champion of Seaking contest several years in row with Poliwrath having huge advantage over Poliwhirl in strength and power.

    That screams that Misty was pretty talented trainer to me.


    Eevee's win was not a "Deus Ex Machina".

    A DEM refers to a sudden problem solver ending to a story, as if all of a sudden May found an Arceus Pokeball in her bag and it came out and revealed itself and killed the bad guy. Eevee was already established far prior to the episode and gained the upperhand with Tackle, a move it already knew.

    The term "DEM" is slowly losing its meaning on this site.
    Let see Evee was hit by barrage of Mudkip attacks, all his attacks and strategies whether its dig, shadow ball or tackle were countered being on verge of losing that match. Than all of sudden he recovers back like almost nothing happened, start dodging all attacks and used contrived repeated use of tackle to turn match other way around performing worse strategy.

    I used wrong term in here referring to plot armor with writers making May win in contrived way to justify win of another ribbon.


    May was made out to be a trainer with a fast learning curve, Iris was made out to be a prodigy. Misty was made out to be average. Trinity & Ash are the only impressive trainers she ever battled against.
    You forgot Dorian, Andreas, Georgio or Harrison.

    But seriously i disagree for all reasons above. Whether you find Misty average or not by your criteria doesn't change fact how Misty was portrayed as fast learning, skilled and very knowledgeable trainer during her run. Perhaps there weren't episodes on consistent basis reflecting her trainer growth like its case with May or Dawn considering how there weren't created benchmarks through which her skill could be measured, but in many battles she showed impressive use of pokemon and ability to adapt to unfavorable situations(such as battle against Molly, Dorian and his Quilfish or Mantine, Trinity or Andreas), defeated several older more experienced trainers than she was outsmarting their tactics, won several notable events on first try, holds gym leader position which only handful of trainers in world are qualified to perform along with showing great deal of understanding and knowledge about water pokemon and how to use opponent strategy against himself.

    Naturally she isn't on Paul, Ash, Tyson and rest of highly skilled trainers level judging by what was showed, but she is definitely above average sub par trainers you see on daily basis.

    Iris went up against Stephan, Drayden, and Ash, she beat Stephan and Ash and tied against Haxorus. She actually beat Ash in a non-sketchy way.(No Psyduck headaches) Dawn was the runner-up in her first GF ever and beat May and came close to beating Zoey.
    And you still fail to prove how this in any way proves how they are stronger trainers than Misty is.

    Beating regressed Pikachu in Club battle with pokemon which has massive type advantage, coming top 2 in GF with average competition for most part, defeating May weakest pokemon etc isn't something highly notable which would put this characters on higher place than Misty is as trainer.


    Misty never showed huge improvement, May did and Dawn showed great improvement. Misty was average however in nearly all her battles.
    Im not sure what by your criteria is considered "big improvement" but anyone who watched OS can clearly see for itself that Misty battle abilities and her pokemon team improved considerably over time. As opposite to pretty poor abilities she demonstrated in Kanto where Starmie easily lost to Graveler rolling attack, Staryu having small trouble in defeating Meowth with Misty not being skilled in same manner like she was in Johto where she won alot more of her battles.

    She entered several battles with her skills as trainer beginning to gradually improve like winning Princess festival on first try showing knowledge of how to use properly other type of pokemon in battle beside water,came top 8 in prestige water tournament (Whirl cup) on first try claiming herself how she came that far thanks to intense training she went through with Corsola. Won Seaking contest defeating several years in row champion of it Andreas ,beat several trainers like Marina controlling wild Golduck like it was hers etc.
    She also showed quick thinking and ability to adapt to unfavorable situation showing great deal of knowledge and skill when using strategy like when her Staryu was able to turn things in its favor being on pair with Molly Mantine, or when she fared better in battle against Dorian than Ash did when they find themselves in different environment.

    As series went on Misty was recognized as skilled by several trainers out there improving battling abilities by large margin at end of Johto compared to early Kanto days growing in better trainer. Something which culminated in passing PIA inspection reclaiming gym leader status along with capture of Gyarados working on ways to counter types which have advantage such as flamethrower, capture of Luvdisk or Togetic evolution being only confirmation to huge improvement she made as trainer in very short period of time.

    Several achievements she made in very short period of time for which it would require most other trainers years to acquire ,her pokemon team, knowledge, much higher resistance of pokemon like Saryu or Corsola and level of skill during AG generation from what we saw are on incomparably higher level than they were during Kanto.


    p.s. In nutshell you failed to prove in any way that Misty wasn't skilled trainers only using isolated scenes and examples to support your point, while ignoring any moments where Misty and her pokemon showed skill and impressive strategy( "kettle logic"), as well ignoring what canon displayed. In addition your demeaning value of all Misty achivements making ungrounded presumptions about strength of trainers she faced, while giving more credit than deserved to opponents and competitions, May, Cilan or Iris entered using double criteria in here.


    P.S. So with no further add while i respect your opinions and you as person i have to disagree with almost everything you said.

    With that in mind assuming you are willing to stop with discussion, from my part im done as well. However if my arguments gets challenged again, i will have no choice but to defend them.
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 2nd January 2013 at 07:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    I voted for Dawn. From all the friends she got to battle the most and her team is pretty damn experienced.
    yeah that's why i voted for her too. next would have been misty.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    I didn't get the Quote mention for this for some reason. 0_o

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemon fan 132 View Post
    Two on one?
    Seems fair.
    It's nothing personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Burch View Post
    You can't play double game in here. If your going to completely ignore fact how Misty Starmie wasn't used enough to reveal true strength, full move set and what he is capable of doing and base someone strength only on what was showed than you can't view Ash Torterra or May Venusaur as impressive pokemon since they in evolved forms didn't showed anything special. In fact they were even worse with Torterra having less of success than it did as Turtwig, Grotle. Same applies to Dawn Quilava.
    I'm not playing a "double game," May's Bulbasaur was shown to be a decent battler and Turtwig was a great battler. Misty's Starmie was not shown to.

    So let me get this straight. When i provide examples to counter your argument you pin it on "plot armor", while at same time using examples where Misty pokemon were in unfavorable position as ammunition to your view.
    The Mastermind Special was not canon. It was a 4kids' spawned mess.

    If we are going to debate in such way, than any lose and failure from Misty pokemon can be apply to being done for "sake of plot" as well not being credible indication/ source on which we can determine if Misty was skilled trainer or not.
    Fact is that Misty Gyarados wasn't portrayed as any weaker, inferior than majority of Gyarados we saw in this show. If not even more impressive than gym leader Wake Gyarados was with his move set being much more diverse and productive. Such as whirlpool, hyperbeam, hydropump, protect, flamethrower and headbutt. If "Cerulean Blue"was something to go by 4 move limit clause" wasn't applied here.
    Clair's Gyarados is most likely stronger than Misty, I'm shaky on Wake's.
    Speaking of trio brothers even if they were incompetent individually, it doesn't change fact how they used three pokemon against one hitting Gyarados with multiple attacks. Nor it change fact how Gyarados with ease with one tail swift repelled all of the, countered their bubblebeam and sliced through triple hydropump with hyper beam defeating them with ease making it anything but "weakling".
    Three weak Pokemon. You can use three LV.1 Infernape against a LV. 100 Totodile in-game and still win.

    For record you said all pokemon survived attacks in Mastermind special. Well since Misty pokemon proved to not be any less resistant than Ash or May were than she isn't inferior trainer, is she?
    She is.

    Anime=/=games.
    Yes, it did have Wonder Guard. Why do you think Corsola Spike Cannon had no effect? ~_~

    Shedinja was actually very strong pokemon with Ash, Pikachu, Brock Mudkip or any of May pokemon not being able to reach through its defenses.
    In fact if it wasn't for Gyarados flamethrower they probably wouldn't defeat it.

    Also for record Ash and May used Torchic and Taillow, during that time they haven't evolved.
    Shedinja has 1 HP in the games, this Shedinja most likely had 1HP as well. If Ash had known that Tailow or Torchic would have used Ember and Wing Attack and defeated it.

    Portraying Misty opponents as pathetic while glorifying May opponents wont exactly help to prove your point.
    May's opponents were shown to be strong. Trinity and Ash are the only exceptional trainers Misty has battled.
    Those Tentacruels weren't that bad at all actually giving quite hard time to Misty Corsola which battled much more skilled and experienced trainers than those brothers were, and no matter what you say canon showed how Hanson Shedinja was indeed strong pokemon.
    Those Tentacruel were pathetic, those trainers were pathetic. Hanson's Shedinja was strong in terms of moves, but Gyarados beating a 1HP Pokemon isn't anything to write home about.

    Way i see it Gyarados slashing through three Tentacruel, defeating Hanson pokemon with ease as well being able to stand its ground against dr. Doom overpowered mirage pokemon proved more than enough how he is strong and reliable pokemomn. Just as much as May Blaziken is, was.
    Tentacruel and Shedinja <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Absol and Flygon.
    Also im counting Mastermind special because we have to work with what got due to lack of screen time Gyarados received being showed rarely.
    Oh, I see. Gyarados still never did anything and was battered like every other Pokemon.

    In other words we can say how Dragonite abilities exceed its trainer current level of skill and strength?
    Uh....no. It didn't listen and was disobedient. :P

    Your straying away from subject. First you said Misty never showed any strategy with her pokemon with examples i counted from canon such as Goldeen, Staryu or Poliwhirl disputing that.
    You disputed nothing. Using Water Gun while spinning to eliminate Sandstorm or stalling a Pokemon out with Attract is strategy. Misty using head-on attacks is not.
    Than you said how Misty didn't showed any ability to be able to come up with counter strategies and moves against pokemon water types might be at disadvantage against. Something which obviously isn't true with fact that Misty Gyarados learned flame thrower ever since she took control of it proving how Misty indeed works on moves through which she can counter opposing types. In this case Gyarados flamethrower giving him edge in battle against grass, bug types. Sam applies to Goldeen or Staryu examples showing ability to come up with strategy to counter opposing moves from other water types.
    Gyarados learning Flamethrower is not a strategy and we did not get any evidence that Misty taught it flamethrower with those intentions, using a move is not a strategy. It's just attacking head-on.


    Except they were. Misty showed more knowledge about pokemon, more skill during her battles and ability to come up with unexpected attacks to turn opponent strength against himself catching them on surprise. In comparison her pokemon like Poliwhirl, Corsola, Gyarados or Staryu showed more raw strength and ability than most of Dawn team did barring exceptions like Mamoswine, Togekiss or Piplup.
    Misty showed more knowledge? That doesn't equate to better strategy. Keep in mind Dawn was a beginning trainer. Mamoswine alone showed more more physical strength than anything Misty ever had her entire run. Pachirisu showed more strength and success in battles against strong opponents than Misty ever did. Beating Ursula's Gabite in a Contest prior then doing the same in the GF with Ice Chandelier.

    Keep in mind that im talking about Dawn abilities as trainer, not what she showed as coordinator. Obviously as coordinator Dawn is ahead of Misty by miles, but as trainer in real battles if her performance was something to go by she didn't showed anything exceptional or amazing to be considered as more skilled than Misty was having naturally less experience there.
    Dawn did. She and Conway came up with a plan to counter Ash and Paul in the Tag Battle Tournament, this was CANON stated, they were completely in-sync and covered each other's weaknesses. They were only saved by a Deus Ex Machina evolution by Elekid otherwise Dawn and Conway were creaming two very strong trainers. Misty beat Ash with a Psyduck Ex Machina.

    Just because Cilan and Ash used better strategy doesn't mean Misty didn't used any strategy at all against Ash in that battle.

    Canon showed how she purposely commanded Poliwhirl bubble beam hoping it will knock him down before solar beam gets fired, using strategy of anticipating opponent attack with counter attack.

    Same type of strategy was used by Ash in Orange league against Drake, agaimnst Kingdra hydropump in Whirl Cup, Burgh Dwebble in Unova etc
    I just rewatched the episode. Misty said she used Bubblebeam with the intention of knocking Bulbasaur out before Solarbeam launched. There was no mention of strategy, it was just head-on attacking.

    In that case i presume you count Misty battle against James pokemon in "Stun Spore Detour". First battle was between Victreebel and Goldeen who defeated it, while second with Staryu against Weezing who got defeated as well.
    Nope, I don't count that.

    And they showed how she was strong, talented trainer making rather rapid improvement in short period of time.
    What in the world are you talking about? Misty's win-record was terrible XP

    Yet your using that same argument in Iris or May case stating how they were portrayed as skilled trainers in anime with canon stating that. Something which was stated in canon regarding Misty as well with several authorities or highly skilled trainers whether its PIA inspector Joy, Dorian, Trinity etc viewing her as excellent and skilled water trainer.
    No. No. You're not listening.
    1.Filler OCs. These character don't matter.
    2.Dragon Masters, Top Coodinators, Champions, these are people who give accurate judges of strength.

    Being recognized by trainers means nothing in this show anyway since it's the usually generic "You'll be stronger" comment.

    If your going to use what was said and portrayed in canon as proof to support theory how Iris, Dawn, May etc were strong trainers, than im afraid you will have to concede and admit that Misty was just as strong trainer as well.
    I don't have to concede anything.

    Whether you feel writers failed in decanting her skills as trainer on screen appropriately along with relatively simplified battles being written in Kanto and Johto not helping either, it doesn't change fact how Misty was indeed portrayed as skilled and knowledgeable water trainer.
    Misty was average. Do you honestly think Misty has beaten any trainer strong as Drew, Zoey, Georgia, Nando, or Drayden?

    Cilan more skilled than Misty? On what ground?
    The fake we're getting more battles and seeing him show his skill, the latest being the Tag Battle.
    Let see he managed to defeat Burgundy which is joke of trainer not winning any battle she was in and his brother Chilli who wasn't something special. In Club battle tournament he managed to defeat Trip who was one of weakest rivals Ash so far had with his only strong pokemon being Serperior, being followed with quick lose against Luke Larvesta.
    1.Burgundy is a joke.
    2.Chili was a joke.
    3.Trip's Gurdurr was actually a tough cookie for the hardly-ever-battled Dwebble, the fact Cilan's won shows something.
    4.He lost to Luke because he made himself lose on purpose by helping Luke in the middle of the battle.
    Now don't get me wrong Cilan is good trainer, but he didn't showed in any way that he is more skilled than Misty is with his win-lose record as well what was showed from his pokemon team not being any more impressive than what we saw from Misty.
    Cilan's win-record is much much better than Misty's. Cilan's Crustle is probably stronger than 90 percent of Misty's Pokemon.

    First of all Misty won more battles than she lost and hardly battling doesn't equate being weak trainer. Brock hardly battled too, yet i don't see you saying how he was weak.
    Misty beat Jessie, Harrison, Ash, Marina, Andreas, and Georgio.

    1.Winning a tournament with a DEM Psyduck is not a display of her skills.
    2.Using a Goldcuk that wasn't hers is not a display of her abilities or how well-trained her Pokemon were, neither did she use any strategy or special skills.
    3.Beating a Fishing Champion is not the hallmark of a heavy powered trainer.
    4.Georgio certainly is not very strong.

    Also regarding Misty activity as character, its not quantity which matters but appeal someone brings to show and value of his deeds. Misty wasn't central character like Ash or Dawn was but she certainly did things bringing humor, good dynamic, helped in Ash growth as trainer and had several memorable moments contributing to resolution of plots.
    Ya know. I am was actually perfectly fine with Misty as a character. until this debate


    If i recall right you said your going to count any TR battle which was proper one on one. So im not sure wheres problem in here?
    Oh God, are you serious? XD Team Rocket's weakass Meowth? Really?


    Speaking of Molly i don't know about you but ability to quickly get Staryu out of trap made from whirlpool and bubble beam turning tide of duel in her favor, with take down being on equal strength with powered by Unown mirage pokemon is pretty good indication of Misty skills knowing how to adapt to new situations and turn opponent attacks against himself.In comparison Brock lost easily to Molly with none of his pokemon being able to be on pair with mirage ones, while Misty were able to stand up their ground coming of as stronger, more resistant.

    So that has to count for something too.
    Misty lost easily as well, the only reason we most likely didn't see Staryu getting knocked-out is due to the cut away. She used Rapid Spin to escape Whirlpool, that's it. That's not a heavy strategy. The fact you're using a movie to justify Misty is very telling of how little battling she actually did or how much skill she showed.

    In order for trainer pokemon to gain enough experience to evolve, learn new attacks or become stronger training is required. Since Misty Polwhirl got progressively stronger as time went, Corsola becoming more resistant and flexible with same applying to Staryu its safe to conclude how Misty indeed trained her pokemon.
    It was rarely showed on screen but it happened of screen with several references confirming that.
    I'm sorry, where in the world did it state Corsola & Staryu became more "resistant and flexible?" We know from Turtwig battling Gardenia and training Oshawott those two got faster and we saw the results of that and the characters confirmed it.

    Difference between Iris Axew and Misty pokemon is that Iris isn't doing much to bring his potential out with most attention being directed toward Dragonite. While Misty constantly trains and battle at gym being safe to say shes working with Starmie too. Something which applies top Psyduck as well clearly showing desire to teach him swim in chronicles and work on his battle abilities.
    You're making assumptions. Let's stick to what we know. Oh and btw if we're using the off-screen training arguement for Misty's Starmie the same applies to Axew, no? Since the Village Elder examined him in the Dragon Village episode and said he has gotten stronger. =P Except with Axew, we actually KNOW. Starmie we don't :P

    Except Misty lost to Sakura as gym leader,. Her job as leader was to test out trainers and determine if he is ready to qualify and participate in league. Not to crush them, otherwise rookies and subpar trainers would never be able to earn any of badges since gym leaders are on much higher level.

    Also Sakura wasn't as "green" as she once was when she met Misty again in chronicles anymore, working with Espeon a lot since last time they battled having several earned badges from Kanto at that time.
    Iirc Sakura had two badges. :P

    Keep in mind Misty was not going easy on her and was using her Corsola a Pokemon she used primarily throughout her run. XP


    Whatever you may think of Togepi, yes that egg pokemon was remarkably strong. His strength couldn't be controlled and he was of no use in regular battles but his Metronom attacks were devastating crushing down everything with earth. Such as demolition of Butch and Cassidy TR base along with Drowzey, making huge tunnel through mountain leaving big hole in it when Tr mecha Arbok was about to crash into it etc.

    He wasn't any weaker as Togetic too, but only stronger proving to be more than enough capable to protect Togepi Paradise and princess Sara kingdom if needed from any bane.
    Doesn't matter. Metronome is a random move and makes whatever move it wants appear. The moves naturally are going to be strong or weak depending on what pops out. That is not an indicator of Misty's abilities.


    Average: someone who is typical, ordinary not bouncing from majority.

    Average, common run of mill trainers don't make rapid improvement, big steps forward in short period of time. Something Misty was portrayed as being capable to do so They don't enter competitions and win them on first try outsmarting and intercepting older, more experienced trainers than they are such as Seaking contest, Princess tournament, Alto Mare race etc?
    1.Fishing.
    2.Jessie, not her Pokemon, and Psyduck Ex Machina.
    3.Movie race.

    Why don't we just give her the award. XP Stephan winning the Bell of Wishes Tournament is a strength indicator too, right? XD Ash winning the Bug catching competition shows his skill, too? XDDD
    They don't place high in prestige tournaments on first try such as Whirl Cup, don't hold gym leader position at such young age with only handful of people being qualified and skilled enough for this place.
    Misty is a gym leader because she is one in the game, quit bringing her age into this as if that shows something about her.
    Average trainers are huge masses we see on daily bases such as all those competitors in Seaking contest or Princess festival failing to qualify for finale, trainers like Marcellus in Whirl Cup which failed to pass beyond preliminary rounds trying for years to win some competition

    Something Misty was portrayed as being capable to do so showing better knowledge, sharper skill and ability to adapt to unexpected situations than most of peers at her age did.

    Majority of trainers who entered competitions i mentioned were either her peers or much older trying for years to win something which she managed to do on first try.
    Misty was never shown to be overly powerful or even exceptional. Beating a Magikarp-fodder trainer, Harrison, and beating Ash with a DEM in the whole tournament. :P
    If she was among typical average group than explain how she was able to come further in shorter period of time than most of other trainers we see didn't managed despite trying for years?
    Because they're a bunch of filler OCs and she's a main character.

    Examples i mentioned and Misty notable improvement in short period of time are quality of very talented trainer who was able to become better in shorter amount of time than several much older trainers ever did.
    Take for example Brock father Flint he came back to Pewter after failing to become exceptionally strong trainer not having required skill. Unlike him Misty manage already at 10 to come further than he did for his whole life.
    1.Misty's age doesn't matter. It feels like you're grasping for straws for things to say about Misty.
    2.Flint was a plot device.

    For how many people at Misty age we can say they managed to achieve several noteworthy achievements such as "champion of Princess tournament", "Winner of Seaking contest" defeating several years in row champion, "winner of Alto Mare Race", "top 16 in Whirl Cup"with just recently caught pokemon(Corsola), being gym leader(position which only minority of people holds) etc???
    Um.....a LOT. Andreas was the fishing Champion. Misty winning half of that crap without her own Pokemon, not battling, and Psyduck's DEM confusion just makes me think of how little Misty actually did in terms of her own skill.
    Along with beating several experienced water trainers at much older age being recognized as talented water specialist.
    Age doesn't matter, being recognized is not impressive. Let's focus on what Misty actually did and not what she could do or could have done. What she actually did.
    Needless to say she is only girl aside from Iris which managed to defeat Ash outsmarting him in battle with her rapid improvement as trainer and build up of pokemon team in Johto and chronicles showing she has fast learning curve standing out from most of young trainers at her age.
    Misty's DEM Psyduck, you're COUNTING that win? Are you serious? 0_o

    You say winning Princess tournament isn't impressive because Jessie was in it, and because she used pokemon which weren't hers? Going by that logic Dawn coming top 2 in GF isn't anything special either since Jessie made to semifinals there. And for record Misty using other pokemon is irrelevant when taken in account how she showed to have knowledge and skill to battle with other types coming so far despite never using other type beside water before that.
    Except Jessie was portrayed as steadily getting better at Contest in DP and a great coordinator. XP

    You say winning against Marina with wild Golduck wasn't impressive?
    Yet it was proven countless times in past how powerful pokemon wont mean much if your not knowledgeable and skilled enough to use them properly. Not everyone is capable of controlling wild pokemon and utilizing their strength in appropriate way. Sure you could say how Golduck only listened to girls because he wanted to impress them but it doesn't change fact that Golduck choose Misty over Marina having perfect control over him in battle winning through her own strategy and attacks.

    That my friend is not quality of typical "run of a mill" trainers who wouldn't accomplish half of things Misty did.
    Wow, shows how mediocre her team was at the time she could only win using a wild Golduck. It would have spoke for Misty's actually strength if she won using her own Pokemon. Iris controlled Druddigon like a pro and Jessie did with Croagunk. I want you to answer me now, what makes Misty's case so special?

    Whether it was 8 or 16, out of 64 participants that's impressive achievement.

    Regarding win over Ash, no matter how you look at it Misty was more skilled than Ash was there. Poliwhirl defeated Totodile with ease and if Psyduck didn't messed up situation Misty would use Corsola which had pretty good chance to win judging by its performance vs Trinity defeating Gyarados with only one attack.
    On top of that if anyone showed to be incompetent in that match it was Ash because of being stupid enough to forget about Psyduck headache using worst possible strategy, with Misty taking advantage out of situation rightfully winning.

    So no, don't play card on me how Misty won on luck there because Ash stupidity and lame strategy sealed duel for him.

    And just to let know in match between Poliwhirl and Totodile luck wasn't involved.
    Poliwhirl overpowered Totodile and Kingler overpowered Poliwhirl. Not only was Misty not more skilled than Ash but Psyduck whole win was complete crap.


    Just for info; in Whirl Cup not anyone can join and compete with purpose of preliminary rounds being to get rid of weak trainers which aren't up to task.
    Once again your over glorifying value of their achievements. Wining 5 ribbons and coming top 2 in GF with relatively average competition, or battling 99 sub par trainers which couldn't deal with Drillbur being defeated by gym leader isn't more impressive than coming top 8 in prestige tournament with high competition,
    Yes they are. You're trying to spin Misty's Whrilcup Top 16 position into something amazing, but it simply isn't. I actually would love to make a thread to see what other forum members think of Misty's achievements in comparison to the other girls'.


    We can say same about Jessie reaching semi finals of Sinnoh Grand Festival serving as "proof" how Dawn only came far because of battling weak opponents.
    Jessie was not weak in DP she was pathetic in Kanto. As a 6-year-old I, myself, even wondered how the hell Koffing and Weezing beat all those opponents in the first place when they usually got beaten by one move every episode.


    Your dodging my question, winning competitions on first try outsmarting most of peers there is quality of talented, not subpar trainer. Her win record in battles is no lower than Cilan, Dawn and higher than Brock.
    Misty beat Georgio, Andreas, Jessie, Ash, Marina, and Harrison in formal battles.

    1.Georgio, not strong.
    2.Andreas, fishing champ.
    3.Jessie..Jessie....Jessie. Psyduck DEM.
    4.Psyduck DEM.
    5.Golduck usage.
    6.He's not exceptional.

    You just know Misty's wins were awful if half of them were by Psyduck DEMs and using others Pokemon.



    What makes you think Marina was "pedestrian" trainer? She wasn't on pair with Zoey but she was by no means weak trainer. Her Psyduck showed to be quite powerful with his psychic abilities with Ash and Tracey acknowledging his strength and her Starmie was actually on pair with highly powerful Golduck until very end. Granted not much was seen from Tentacruel, but judging by performance rest of team showed its safe to assume he is well trained pokemon too.
    And the whole battle was a one-hit KO fest. =P Not the realistic kind either.



    Re read what i wrote in top of post. It was Misty knowledge and choice of attacks which won battle.
    No, she saw it use it against TR and did the same. It was no knowledge.

    Just because it was said he knows a lot about Corsola which was brought up because that pokemon battled, doesn't prove he doesn't know much about other water types or isn't strong trainer either.

    Your making mistake in here wrongly assuming how Harrison was weak trainer because it wasn't stated how he is strong. In other words "fallacy of composition".

    Fact that Harrison passed preliminary rounds showed he was among more skilled 32 participants with his Quilfish showing high level of experience along with trainers itself being knowledgeable.
    He was one of the stronger of the preliminary but nothing a powerful trainer.


    But they didn't with Misty being only one which knew how to stop him showing bigger knowledge there than Ash or May.

    Additionally it was not Georgio battle against Casey, but Misty which showed how he is strong, experienced trainer.
    LOL, you did it again! XD You said that Shedinja didn't have Wonder Guard before because anime/=/games. Now you're saying Misty knew about Wonder Guard and won because she knew about it despite there being no mention of Misty knowing about Wonder Guard. :P


    Bianca, Cilan and Edmond are not exceptionally powerful trainers. In fact they are nowhere near to caliber of skill Gary, Paul, Conway or Tyson from AG showed.

    Ash can be annotated as highly skilled trainer, but Stephan was never showed as anything special being only slightly above average.

    So no Iris defeating Stephan isn't exactly something which would serve as sustainable proof that she is indeed stronger trainer than Misty is.
    I'm sorry, she is stronger than Misty and more noteworthy. Bianca's Emboar is strong, Cilan's Pansage is strong, and Edmond I can't speak for. Either way I'm sure they're stronger than anything Misty ever battled.

    Trying to make Stephan out to be crappy as a way to spin Misty into a strong trainer? Really? His Sawk has beat Montgomery's Throh(THis is the Pokemon that beat Excadrill), Pansage, Emboar, Leavanny under Swarm, and was going to KO Krookodile.

    Solar Beam was not luck, Ash used it from the start and Bulbasaur, unlike Pokemon in DP and BW, had a very believable charge time for the attack. Togepi beating Pikachu via emotion is not the power of a skilled trainer. Pikachu would have smashed Togepi if he didn't have a brotherly attachment to it.
    No he didn't. Ash commanded Bulbasaur solar beam only as last resort after everything else failed with Poliwhirl strength and speed outclassing Bulbasaur physical or long range attacks like razor leaf.

    Even so Bulbasaur was on last lags being completely exhausted managing to charge enough for solarbeam only because Misty underestimated level of his will power, stubbornness not being known if he will be knocked out by bubblebeam before he could charge enough until last moment.

    That's not skill by sheer luck which rolled on Ash side allowing him to win there.
    Also who is talking about Togepi in here? Your changing subject again.[/quote]

    Either way the whole battle was a joke because.

    Chikorita, Pikachu, Bulbasaur >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Staryu, Togepi, Poliwhirl

    Misty using Poliwhirl bubble to knock Bulbasaur before he could lunch solar beam is clear example of textbook strategy trying to intercept opponent counter attack with your own.
    Not strategy. Just attacking. Like Bianca's Emboar did against Sawk.


    Jessie or Marina no. However Trinity, Andreas, Harrison or Dorian were not any easier challenge Misty battled against than most adversaries Iris, May or Dawn faced.
    I repeat with a yes or no.

    Do you honestly think any Misty ever battled is on level with Drayden, Drew, or Zoey?


    Use of double standards. When its for Iris mentioned in canon how she is skilled trainer you use it to your advantage, while disregarding exact same thing being said for Misty in canon as well.

    If your going to use what was said in canon as proof how Iris is skilled, than you have to accept that same thing for Misty as well and what canon delivered.
    We had two episodes with flashbacks, character mentions, and visual showing that said Iris is a prodigy and was sent to school to hone her skills. Do you honestly think the same applies to Misty?

    Being interested in someone you just met >>>>> Being interested in someone you've known since you were a baby.
    You claimed a reason Misty was a good battler was because Max was more interested in her than May. Which is ridiculous.


    Except Misty wins happened in official tournament defeating dozen of other trainers. Its irrelevant that she used other pokemon actually going in her favor because she proved not only that she can command pokemon from other trainers just as well as their owners would which necessitates certain amount of skill, but also showed flexibility in knowing how to utilize other types as well regardless of being mono trainer.
    In a sense that makes it ever worse since Misty wasn't using her own Pokemon in the first place. At least with Jessie, the writers in DP treated all her and James' Pokemon as the same under one trainer. Even in the WIFI events. Misty's Pokemon are clearly Misty's Pokemon.


    Andreas was champion of Seaking contest yes, but he was also portrayed as strong and knowledgeable trainer.
    You often use Dawn second place in GF as indication to go by that she was skilled trainer. But here's the difference, she showed great skills as coordinator but as trainer both against Maylene, Ash or Iris didn't showed anything extraordinary or of big value to warrant be considered as stronger trainer than Misty was. Being good coordinator doesn't prove your going to be just as successful as trainer being two different worlds. Needless to say need i remind how competition in Dawn GF festival made of Jessie, Kenny, Nando was weaker than opponents May faced in her GF.
    Do you honestly think Misty is strong, let alone stronger than all the rest of those trainer? Nando certainly wasn't weak.

    Except she tamed and controlled Gyarados in much, much shorter period of time than Ash, Dawn or Iris did showing better knowledge how to approach to disobedient pokemon and earn their thrust.

    That's the difference.
    And that was a one-episode one-shot. These trainers actually gradually tamed their Pokemon in a realistic manner. You don't meet a person in real life and automatically start loving them, you gradually overtime develop feelings of love to them. It isn't instant.


    She made it to quarterfinals in Whirl Cup. Won Princess festival with other pokemon types proving she is capable of utilizing great all other types and not only water which is pretty impressive since she as mono specialist never battled with fire, electric or grass type before revealing her quick adaption and flexibility as trainer.

    And defeated Andreas who was champion of Seaking contest several years in row with Poliwrath having huge advantage over Poliwhirl in strength and power.

    That screams that Misty was pretty talented trainer to me.
    That screams Misty is mediocre to me.


    Let see Evee was hit by barrage of Mudkip attacks, all his attacks and strategies whether its dig, shadow ball or tackle were countered being on verge of losing that match. Than all of sudden he recovers back like almost nothing happened, start dodging all attacks and used contrived repeated use of tackle to turn match other way around performing worse strategy.

    I used wrong term in here referring to plot armor with writers making May win in contrived way to justify win of another ribbon.
    You can acknowledge that but not Psyduck's headache solving powers? That win didn't come off as a DEM to me in the slightest, Eevee was shown to already have everything it needed to defeat Marshtomp and it's perfectly justifiable it turned the tide of the battle.



    You forgot Dorian, Andreas, Georgio or Harrison.
    I didn't forget them. They just aren't impressive, except maybe Dorian.

    But seriously i disagree for all reasons above. Whether you find Misty average or not by your criteria doesn't change fact how Misty was portrayed as fast learning, skilled and very knowledgeable trainer during her run. Perhaps there weren't episodes on consistent basis reflecting her trainer growth like its case with May or Dawn considering how there weren't created benchmarks through which her skill could be measured, but in many battles she showed impressive use of pokemon and ability to adapt to unfavorable situations(such as battle against Molly, Dorian and his Quilfish or Mantine, Trinity or Andreas), defeated several older more experienced trainers than she was outsmarting their tactics, won several notable events on first try, holds gym leader position which only handful of trainers in world are qualified to perform along with showing great deal of understanding and knowledge about water pokemon and how to use opponent strategy against himself.
    Seriously, Misty was average.

    Naturally she isn't on Paul, Ash, Tyson and rest of highly skilled trainers level judging by what was showed, but she is definitely above average sub par trainers you see on daily basis.
    Yeah, she's good enough to scrap by and beat filler OCs, not stronger than May, Dawn, or Iris. Certainly not stronger than any opponents they've faced.

    And you still fail to prove how this in any way proves how they are stronger trainers than Misty is.
    What the hell are you talking about? Misty's Psyduck wins were awful. Their wins were actually justified and showed their strength.
    Beating regressed Pikachu in Club battle with pokemon which has massive type advantage, coming top 2 in GF with average competition for most part, defeating May weakest pokemon etc isn't something highly notable which would put this characters on higher place than Misty is as trainer.
    You're calling the Grand Festival average but trying to make the Whrilcup into this prestige competition that is more exclusive than the Garden of Eden? Really? I mean really?


    Im not sure what by your criteria is considered "big improvement" but anyone who watched OS can clearly see for itself that Misty battle abilities and her pokemon team improved considerably over time. As opposite to pretty poor abilities she demonstrated in Kanto where Starmie easily lost to Graveler rolling attack, Staryu having small trouble in defeating Meowth with Misty not being skilled in same manner like she was in Johto where she won alot more of her battles.

    She entered several battles with her skills as trainer beginning to gradually improve like winning Princess festival on first try showing knowledge of how to use properly other type of pokemon in battle beside water,came top 8 in prestige water tournament (Whirl cup) on first try claiming herself how she came that far thanks to intense training she went through with Corsola. Won Seaking contest defeating several years in row champion of it Andreas ,beat several trainers like Marina controlling wild Golduck like it was hers etc.
    She also showed quick thinking and ability to adapt to unfavorable situation showing great deal of knowledge and skill when using strategy like when her Staryu was able to turn things in its favor being on pair with Molly Mantine, or when she fared better in battle against Dorian than Ash did when they find themselves in different environment.

    As series went on Misty was recognized as skilled by several trainers out there improving battling abilities by large margin at end of Johto compared to early Kanto days growing in better trainer. Something which culminated in passing PIA inspection reclaiming gym leader status along with capture of Gyarados working on ways to counter types which have advantage such as flamethrower, capture of Luvdisk or Togetic evolution being only confirmation to huge improvement she made as trainer in very short period of time.

    Several achievements she made in very short period of time for which it would require most other trainers years to acquire ,her pokemon team, knowledge, much higher resistance of pokemon like Saryu or Corsola and level of skill during AG generation from what we saw are on incomparably higher level than they were during Kanto
    In other words average.


    p.s. In nutshell you failed to prove in any way that Misty wasn't skilled trainers
    I failed? Who are you to say that? I know you like Misty but that doesn't overrun a poor battle record. XP
    only using isolated scenes and examples to support your point, while ignoring any moments where Misty and her pokemon showed skill and impressive strategy( "kettle logic"), as well ignoring what canon displayed. In addition your demeaning value of all Misty achivements making ungrounded presumptions about strength of trainers she faced, while giving more credit than deserved to opponents and competitions, May, Cilan or Iris entered using double criteria in here.
    1.Isolated examples, what the hell? How is a Psyduck DEM defeating Kingler isolated?
    2.I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just looking for actually strategy and not straw grasping.
    3.Misty winning a bunch of competitions that revolve around not-battling does not make me think Misty's achievements are anything to write home about.


    With that in mind assuming you are willing to stop with discussion, from my part im done as well. However if my arguments gets challenged again, i will have no choice but to defend them.
    Okay, pokemonfan132, I hope I didn't come off as rude, I know you like Misty, but that still doesn't overrun a mediocre battle record. I'm perfectly fine with Misty as a character and think she's fun, i just don't think her battling skills were anything more than average. Sorry ^^;; With that, this debate is over. At least for me. In the future if you wanna end a debate, you should just step up and end it yourself. It's okay if you want the last word, I don't mind. :P
    Last edited by Bubble Frog; 5th January 2013 at 09:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Tracy duh! Better watch out for Venonat and Marill! ;)

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Very well, this are my final thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotpika View Post
    I'm not playing a "double game," May's Bulbasaur was shown to be a decent battler and Turtwig was a great battler. Misty's Starmie was not shown to.
    Irrelevant, your using as indication of this pokemon strength their past glory before evolution while completely turning blind eye to poor and average ability they showed as fully evolved forms making your argument fallacious.

    Likewise you are also turning blind eye to fact how Misty Starmie never showed its whole strength leaving before it got chance to be used to full potential labeling it as "weak" forming prejudices despite not being showed its whole strength.

    If we are going to base someone strength only on what was showed in canon at that right moment and time, May Venusaur or Ash Torterra didn't showed anything which would warrant to be considered as "strong pokemon".

    The Mastermind Special was not canon. It was a 4kids' spawned mess.
    It wasn't 4kids, but pokemon USA.

    In special credits members of Japanese staff are listed as well. Mastermind Special was produced by Japanese, but commissioned by pokemon USA being done for American audience. Hence why it was first aired in USA.

    However that doesn't change fact how special was also written, produced by people from authority(Japanese) who approved creation of this in first place making it indeed canon.

    Also again your dodging answering the question. If Misty pokemon in that special weren't portrayed as any weaker, less resistant than Ash or May's on what grounds your basing assumption that Misty was weaker trainer than they were in that special?

    Clair's Gyarados is most likely stronger than Misty, I'm shaky on Wake's.
    Agreed about Clair, but not Wake. His Gyarados didn't showed to be any stronger, more impressive than Misty Gyarados was being awfully easy defeated by Pikachu. If anything Misty Gyarados showed more impressive move set and resistance in chronicles and AG specials than Wake pokemon did serving as pretty good indication how Misty might be stronger trainer than Wake is/was.

    Three weak Pokemon. You can use three LV.1 Infernape against a LV. 100 Totodile in-game and still win.
    Do you have any proof that this pokemon were weak? No, your only making assumptions out of nowhere in here simply because trio brothers were hired by TR to do dirty job for them prior to that special. They maybe weren't some highly skilled trainers, but their pokemon showed better battle abilities than Jessie or James did.

    She is.
    Claiming something without proof to back up your statement isn't very convincing argument.

    Yes, it did have Wonder Guard. Why do you think Corsola Spike Cannon had no effect? ~_~
    I never said it didn't had.

    Shedinja has 1 HP in the games, this Shedinja most likely had 1HP as well. If Ash had known that Tailow or Torchic would have used Ember and Wing Attack and defeated it.
    Your point? Just because Shedinja has low HP doesn't mean it is weak pokemon with strength of its attacks such as solar beam and almost unbreakable defense in firm of Wonder guard making it tough opponent to deal with.

    Key word in here is "if they had known", but they didn't. It was Misty who figured out what pokemon to use and how to get pass Shedinja defense showing more knowledge, skill than anyone else in cast at that point did.

    May's opponents were shown to be strong. Trinity and Ash are the only exceptional trainers Misty has battled.
    Only Drew, Soledad and Zoey can be viewed as exceptionally strong trainer May battled against. Everyone else were either average or little above that so im not sure how exactly "all May opponents" were showed to be strong?

    Also speaking of exceptional, Dorian and Andreas can be considered as strong trainers Misty battled against as well showing rather remarkable amount of skill and ability.

    Even if they weren't fact that Misty was on equal ground with Trinity who was runner up of Whirl Cup crushing her Gyarados so easily with newly caught Corsola or ability to outsmart Ash and defeat him who was anything but average trainer are clear indication that Misty is knowledgeable and skilled trainer not being much behind them.

    Those Tentacruel were pathetic, those trainers were pathetic. Hanson's Shedinja was strong in terms of moves, but Gyarados beating a 1HP Pokemon isn't anything to write home about.
    Once again on what grounds are you basing that conclusion? Because last time i checked those three Tentacruel didn't seemed pathetic at all when knocking down Corsola which defeated stronger opponents than they were. Meaning it does make difference if multiple pokemon are battling one pokemon regardless of their strength having numerical advantage. However Gyarados despite that overpowered them reflecting their attacks with ease making it indeed strong pokemon.

    Also how high HP Shedinja had doesn't change fact that it was strong pokemon, and if Gyarados didn't knew fire attacks who knows how would battle end. So yes Gyarados win over rather impressive pokemon with high defense and strong attacks does count for something.


    Tentacruel and Shedinja <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Absol and Flygon.
    This isn't competition about who battled what trainers, but how strong their pokemon were portrayed in battles. And judging by what was showed Misty Gyarados showed to be just as strong, arguably even stronger than May Blaziken was defeating all 3 Tentacruels with ease, slashing notably powerful Shedinja as well holding its ground against double powered Mirage pokemon created by dr. Yung(dr. Doom).

    Abilities May Blaziken line showed as Combusken in battle against Absol and Flygon weren't any more spectacular, impressive than what Misty pokemon showed.
    What your seriously going to tell me how Peck, flamethrower and overheat going with attack after attack is more impressive than Gyarados repelling bubble beam with protect, using hyperbeam slashing through triple strongest water attack(hydropump) or frying Shedinja with flamethrower?

    Lets be realistic in here, objectively speaking May Combusken/Blaziken wasn't portrayed as stronger pokemon than Gyarados is period.


    Oh, I see. Gyarados still never did anything and was battered like every other Pokemon.
    Let see: It battled brother trio and their Tentacruel defeating them. Defeated colonel Hanson Shedinja and helped in battle against dr. Doom Mirage pokemon like Mewtwo, Zapdos, Articuno etc.

    How exactly this counts as nothing?

    For record using derogatory comments on Misty pokemon and trainers she battled against wont help you to prove your point only revealing how your running out of counter arguments.


    Uh....no. It didn't listen and was disobedient. :P
    Meaning Iris level of knowledge and skill wasn't enough high to be able to understand Dragonite and take control over him.

    You disputed nothing. Using Water Gun while spinning to eliminate Sandstorm or stalling a Pokemon out with Attract is strategy. Misty using head-on attacks is not.
    Didn't we already went through this?
    Goldeen using fins as creative way to repel Quilfish pin missile and sent it back to him, Staryu using rapid spin in opposite direction to neutralize Mantine combination of Whirlpool and bubble beam or Poliwhirl diving underwater to get closer to Totodile making him unable to use long distance attacks is clear, definite display of strategy.

    Gyarados learning Flamethrower is not a strategy and we did not get any evidence that Misty taught it flamethrower with those intentions, using a move is not a strategy. It's just attacking head-on.
    From start of this debate you insisted on argument how Misty never showed with any pokemon that she has knowledge and enough talent to come up with attacks, techniques which could counter opposing pokemon which may have advantage over them. Despite examples in battle with Goldeen against Dorian, Corsola vs Trinity or Harrison or Staryu against Mantine proving otherwise.

    As for Gyarados Misty didn't need to teach him fire attacks, she could simply teach him any other water based attack. Fact that she taught him flamethrower which is good counter move against grass, bug or steel types being expected from gym leaders which test challengers to develop new strategies and attacks against various types is proof in itself how she indeed has required knowledge and ability as trainer to develop new, unique attacks with pokemon and counter strategies which could give them an edge in battle against pokemon with upper hand.

    Teaching Gyarados fire attack wasn't accident, move being taught just for the sake of it. Misty intentionally taught him fire based attacks to give him an edge when battling types he may be at disadvantage against.

    Misty showed more knowledge? That doesn't equate to better strategy. Keep in mind Dawn was a beginning trainer. Mamoswine alone showed more more physical strength than anything Misty ever had her entire run. Pachirisu showed more strength and success in battles against strong opponents than Misty ever did. Beating Ursula's Gabite in a Contest prior then doing the same in the GF with Ice Chandelier.
    To be strong and successful trainer knowledge plays important role in being familiar with pokemon strategies, how to counter opponent attacks and turn tide of duel in your favor.

    You say Mamoswine showed more physical strength than any Misty pokemon? I beg to differ with Gyarados being just as powerful, if not even stronger.

    Pachirisu showed more success against strong opponents? On what grounds? By being unable to make attack combination with Mamoswine work because of its panic fear from ice? By being easily disabled by wild Ariados, or by being on its last legs against Ursula Gabite and Flareon with most of work bring done by Mamoswine alone who served as shield by taking all those shadow balls?

    No my friend Pachirisu was one of weaker Dawn pokemon not showing anything beyond average.

    On other hand Misty Poliwhirl was able to defeat fully evolved Poliwrath and Andreas who was Seaking contest champion for years overpowering Poliwrath in strength. Corsola managed to defeat Gyarados from powerful trainer Trinity with just one attack(spike cannon). Staryu defeated Tentacruel from Marina with only swift and actually stood its ground against Molly mirage pokemon Mantine which was more powerful than any pokemon Dawn Pachirisu faced etc, etc.

    Im sorry but that's a lot more impressive than Pachirisu achievements.

    Dawn did. She and Conway came up with a plan to counter Ash and Paul in the Tag Battle Tournament, this was CANON stated, they were completely in-sync and covered each other's weaknesses. They were only saved by a Deus Ex Machina evolution by Elekid otherwise Dawn and Conway were creaming two very strong trainers. Misty beat Ash with a Psyduck Ex Machina.
    Canon only stated how they were synchronized, it never portrayed them as "exceptionally strong trainers" which they weren't to begin with.

    During whole battle Dawn and Conway while countering Ash and Paul moves weren't in any advantageous position with Chimchar and Elekid doing teamwork just as much like opposite side did. Also evolution in middle of battle isn't always deux machina with Paul Elekid logically having every predisposition for evolution due to high level of experience it showed in battle, along with constant training.

    So even though Dawn and Conway were able to hold their ground for awhile against Ash and Paul they still lost , so how this again shows Dawn is better trainer than Misty was?

    Especially when taken in account how Misty actually defeated Ash who was at that point already Orange champion, managed to be on pair with overpowered mirage pokemon created by Unown, outsmart strong trainers like Andreas and his Poliwrath, Dorian and Mantine, Harrison and Quilfish by smart use of attacks and counter moves etc. Misty without doubt has more experience as trainer than Dawn has being more skilled in that area.

    Trying to claim otherwise is same like saying how Misty is more skilled as coordinator than Dawn despite never entering contests which is ludicrous.

    Also your often using word "deux machina" even when that isn't the case.
    DEM( "deux es machina"): is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

    With Misty Psyduck it was already established in Kanto how when his head us put under pressure he can release enormous amount of psychic energy, It was established countless times before Whirl Cup how he knows moves like disable, psychic, confusion etc.

    There were no new moves introduced in this episode, sudden resolution of problem through evolution or by some "higher force" intervening in match.
    Ash Kingler lost because of poor choice of strategy as well Ash stupidity to use physical moves on Psyduck.

    Psyduck legitimately won through confusion with Misty taking advantage of Ash stupidity knowing how thanks to pressure on head he is getting headache being familiar with his hidden power. She did what any other good trainer would finding her ace in hole rightfully winning because of opponent(Ash)using worse strategy.

    Not to mention your completely forgetting how easily Poliwhirl defeated Totodile.

    Whether you want to admit it or not its factual that Misty showed better strategy and more knowledge than Ash did in Whirl Cup outsmarting him. And since we know Ash isn't average trainer ability to beat him in his own game never being much behind was clear indication that Misty was indeed strong trainer.


    I just rewatched the episode. Misty said she used Bubblebeam with the intention of knocking Bulbasaur out before Solarbeam launched. There was no mention of strategy, it was just head-on attacking.
    Are you serious? Something doesn't need to be literally mentioned in canon to be considered as true.Because any issue, tactic or resolution of issue is displayed through character acts, decision and whats being showed on screen.

    Fact that it was directly stated in dialogue that Misty plan was to to use bubble beam with intention of knocking Bulbasaur out before solar beam gets launched is strategy. She knew it will take time before Bulbasaur collects enough energy, was aware how Ash pokemon is tired and damaged being on last legs and decided to continue pressure and intercept opponent counter attack with her own counting on delivering enough dmg before he could finish recharging.

    Strategy isn't only composed of dodging, using combination of attacks or counter moves. We saw same strategy Misty used with Ash when battling Drake Venusaur with Tauros, when Totodile intercept Kingdra hydropump with bite, when Ash intercept Paul Aggron flash attack with Infernape mach punch etc.

    Nope, I don't count that.
    First you say you count battle against TR which were official one vs one. Just to later deny that when examples where Misty won are provided.

    Make up your mind.
    And in all honesty there is no reason not to count this. If you can count Jessie battles against Dawn, than battle against James can be counted as legit duel as well since they followed rules using two pokemon without TR blasting of as usual.

    What in the world are you talking about? Misty's win-record was terrible XP
    Terrible? Where is proof to support such statement?

    But ok lets do breakdown of Misty battle record:
    Trainers she defeated(TR members counted in legit battles): Joe with Weepinbell from special school,
    - guy with Farfetched in mid Kanto,
    - several girl trainers in Princess tournament(exact number is unknown)along with Jessie
    -pokemon pirates who used Tentacruel in Lapras departing episode
    - water trainer Marina
    -James(in legit battle in "Stun, Spore, Detour")
    -Seaking champion Andreas
    -Harrison, Ash and two trainers in preliminary rounds which used Magikarp and Shelder
    -Sakura and her Espeon
    -trio brothers Hitmonchan in departing episode being followed with repeated defeat in chronicles when Gyarados knocked down Tentacruel
    -Georgio and his Delcatty
    -burglers who steal badges from hosos
    -colonel Hanson in AG cameo when releasing Togetic

    Total number of wins:17

    There are of course also wins against Jessie, James and Meowth on daily basis when being blasted of, or Butch and Cassidy when Psyduck or Luvdisc defeated them in hosos but of course we wont count those.

    Trainers she lost against: Giselle from pokemon school,
    -Ash when battling for Totodile
    -Marcellus and Remoraid
    -Trinity from Whirl Cup
    -guy with Poliwrath when Poliwhirl evolved in Politoad(can't remember name)
    -Sakura in chronicles
    -Dr. Yung and his Aggron in Mastermind special

    Total number of loses:7

    Battles which ended in tie:
    -Ash in battle for badge in Cerulean gym
    -unofficial gym leader Dorian

    Total number of draws:2

    Battles where status of winner is unknown:
    -against Molly in third movie.
    -against bridge bike gang Cloyster who battled Psyduck

    So i think its pretty clear how Misty win-lose record was far from something which can be classified as terrible winning more than losing. Especially if we also add 20 to 30 times she battled Jessie and James outside official battle defeating their Arbok, Weezing or Victreebel.

    No. No. You're not listening.
    1.Filler OCs. These character don't matter.
    2.Dragon Masters, Top Coodinators, Champions, these are people who give accurate judges of strength.
    Trainers which recognized Misty skills: gym leader Koga, several years in row Seaking contest champion Andreas, runner up of Whirl Cup Trinity, Ash, unofficial gym leader Dorian, official pokemon inspector Joy in chronicles etc.

    Misty skills weren't recognized contrary to your belief by nobody but trainers which were established to be strong, hold high position or were representatives of authority such as PIA inspectors.
    All of this examples are professional trainers.

    What your using right now is typical example of logical fallacy or cherry picking using examples which support your case about Dawn, May or Iris while at same time discarding examples regarding Misty which are just as valid like examples you counted were.

    How high position someone holds is irrelevant in here being obvious attempt to raise up bar due to lack of counter arguments.

    Being recognized by trainers means nothing in this show anyway since it's the usually generic "You'll be stronger" comment.
    As a matter of fact it means being writers way of letting audience know if certain trainer is skilled or not. If writers message wasn't to portray Misty as skilled trainer she wouldn't be able to defeat much older and experienced trainer than she was, come far at prestige competitions or winning them like Whirl Cup, Alto Mare Race, Seaking contest etc, etc.

    Same applies top May, Ash or Iris.

    I don't have to concede anything.
    Canon says otherwise.

    Misty was average. Do you honestly think Misty has beaten any trainer strong as Drew, Zoey, Georgia, Nando, or Drayden?
    So let me get this straight? Your portraying Misty as average solely because we didn't seen her battle trainers of same caliber Ash or Iris has faced?

    That's not valid indication to base someone strength on because how skilled someone is shouldn't be determined on how often he battles and who he battles, but on how skilled and knowledgeable he was portrayed durig battles he/she entered.

    Something which proved to hold truth in Misty case showing several times high level of knowledge and remarkable ability to counter opposing pokemon. Such as skilled use of wild pokemon Golduck against Marina, ability to adapt to different pokemon types despite being mono specialist battling well with grass, fire or electric type borrowed by Ash and Brock being indication of Misty versatility as trainer.

    Ability to overcome disadvantage in which Poliwhirl was put against when facing Poliwrath and Andreas.

    Defeating more experienced trainers like Harrison or standing her ground against them like Trinity or Dorian etc, etc.
    Also Georgia, Nando or Drew definitely aren't stronger than Trinity, Andreas, Dorian or Ash Misty battled against were.
    In fact Georgia is pretty weak trainer.

    No matter how you look at it Misty showed more than once skilled use of her pokemon in battles being portrayed above average as trainer with her remarkable achievements in short period and rapid improvement adding to that.

    The fake we're getting more battles and seeing him show his skill, the latest being the Tag Battle.
    Just because we seen him battle more often doesn't mean he is stronger trainer. Jessie and James battle in almost every episode but they are hardly something you would call strong trainers.

    Cilan's win-record is much much better than Misty's. Cilan's Crustle is probably stronger than 90 percent of Misty's Pokemon.
    Cilan wins:- Burgundy
    - brother Chilli
    -subway masters in tag battle with Ash
    -Trip in Club Battle tournament
    -connoisseur Ricard
    -Flora in Cubsplosion
    -Bianca and prof Jnniper in tag battle with Ash
    -Shepherd and Horatio in Junior Cup

    Number of wins: 8

    Cilan loses:-Ash in battle for badge
    -Stephan in Clubsplosion
    -Luke in Club Battle
    -Trip in Junior Cup
    -gym leader Skyla

    Number of loses: 5

    Battles where winner status is uncertain:
    -against Dawn Piplup

    I fail to see exactly how Cilan battle record is better, because Misty just like him had more wins than loses.

    Also just because you may like Cilan Crustle that doesn't make him stronger than almost any Misty pokemon. Especially when making such presumptions without substantial proof to support your statement .

    Way i see it Gyarados and Politoad are probably stronger than Crustle. Corsola and Staryu are probably on pair in strength. Horsea, Goldeen, Luvdisc and Azurill are most likely weaker while with Starmie its unknown. With Psyduck its basically anyone game.


    Misty beat Jessie, Harrison, Ash, Marina, Andreas, and Georgio.

    1.Winning a tournament with a DEM Psyduck is not a display of her skills.
    2.Using a Goldcuk that wasn't hers is not a display of her abilities or how well-trained her Pokemon were, neither did she use any strategy or special skills.
    3.Beating a Fishing Champion is not the hallmark of a heavy powered trainer.
    4.Georgio certainly is not very strong.
    You forgot dozen of other trainers Misty beat like Hanson, Sakura, Joe, pokemon brothers, Keita etc.

    As for rest of your points:
    1.) winning Princess tournament was indeed notable achievement in itself since Misty not only won it on first try beating dozen of other female trainers but also showed skill and knowledge to control other types and battle with them effectively despite being mainly water trainer not having much experience with different types.

    That's right there clear indication of Misty wide knowledge and versatility being able to battle perfectly with other pokemon types despite not being her specialty which requires certain level of skill. Something which can't be applied to every mono trainer specialist. Its similar to sports, if your basketball player, there's no guarantee you will have same success in other sports such as soccer, handball etc where your less experienced or doesn't know much about them at all.

    2.) Fact that Misty controlled wild Golduck being perfectly synchronized and utilizing its power in productive manner is indeed display of skilled and knowledgeable trainer. Something which was confirmed within canon judging by Marina and Ash reactions.

    Like i said before having powerful pokemon in your hands don't change anything unless you don't possess required knowledge and ability to put that power to good use. Otherwise Jessie and James wouldn't fail so horribly when using pokemon which weren't theirs such as Charizard, Blastoise or Aggron not being skilled enough to use them properly.

    If Misty wasn't enough skilleed as trainer she wouldn't be aboe to control wild Golduck properly and win battle against Marina Psyduck and Starmie. Simple as that.

    3.) Defeating several years in a row champion of Seaking contest who was strong trainer and had huge advantage by using Poliwrath, which is in every aspect superior to Poliwhirl is no matter how you look at it impressive achievement by every standard.

    4.) Georgio was able to give same Corsola which defeated Trinity Gyarados, Dorian Mantine and Sakura Espeon run for its money definitely being among stronger trainers Misty battled against.


    Oh God, are you serious? XD Team Rocket's weakass Meowth? Really?
    Battle is a battle.

    Misty lost easily as well, the only reason we most likely didn't see Staryu getting knocked-out is due to the cut away. She used Rapid Spin to escape Whirlpool, that's it. That's not a heavy strategy. The fact you're using a movie to justify Misty is very telling of how little battling she actually did or how much skill she showed.
    We don't know how battle ended again making presumptions without any groundwork.
    Which is irrelevant because it doesn't change fact how Misty was able to stand her ground against Molly overpowered Mirage pokemon with Staryu being actually equal to double powered Mantine speed and strength.

    While in comparison all three of Brock pokemon( Onix, Zubat and Vulpix)lost easily clearly showing how Brock pokemon were less resistant and strong than Misty's were.
    If that's not good indication that Misty is indeed arguably stronger trainer than Brock was at that point with his skills due to innactivity becoming rusty, than i don't know what it is?

    Also if we are going to cite examples from canon than movies count too, since they are part of canon as well.
    Speaking of which your insistence on addressing fact how Misty didn't battle often in anime is insinuating how your judging Misty skills as trainer by number of battles she was in, instead on quality she displayed when she battled.

    Making your argument invalidated, because not battling often in anime=/= indication of weak trainer.

    I'm sorry, where in the world did it state Corsola & Staryu became more "resistant and flexible?" We know from Turtwig battling Gardenia and training Oshawott those two got faster and we saw the results of that and the characters confirmed it.
    It was obvious without saying. When Misty just caught Corsola in most battles such as against Harrison Quilfish it was enough side damage from explosion collision of spike cannons caused and tackle to bring her in state being forced to use recover. Same applies to battle against Marcellus with one water gun and tackle from Remoraid being enough to finish it of.

    In comparison against Georgio Delcatty it was required two tackles, iron tail and ice beam to bring Corsola in bad shape being forced to use Recover. Her tackle got progressively stronger as well spike cannon which can be noticed in holding her ground against Delcatty or Dorian Mantine whose supersonic didn't even affected it.

    You say Staryu didn't become more resistant? In battle against Maria Psyduck it was enough one reflected water gun to knock him down. Newly caught Butterfree from Ash out him in trouble during match at Cerulean gym.

    However in battle against Molly mirage pokemon which are do i need to remind twice stronger than normal ones he not only resisted whirlpool and bubblebeam , but was in perfect shape to continue battle.

    In Mastermind special against again double strong Aggron, it was needed sandstorm, thunder wave and bullet seed to knock him down.

    You're making assumptions. Let's stick to what we know. Oh and btw if we're using the off-screen training arguement for Misty's Starmie the same applies to Axew, no? Since the Village Elder examined him in the Dragon Village episode and said he has gotten stronger. =P Except with Axew, we actually KNOW. Starmie we don't :P
    They are not assumptions, but more educated guess based on past knowledge and information we received in past making it more valid.

    As we can see with Gyarados capture learning fire attacks, Luvdisc etc Misty indeed trains her pokemon improving as trainer in meantime at gym. Since we reliably know how gym leaders often trains and battle with their pokemon makes it safe to say how Misty Starmie is more likely than not being trained.

    Iirc Sakura had two badges. :P

    Keep in mind Misty was not going easy on her and was using her Corsola a Pokemon she used primarily throughout her run. XP
    Your point? When gym leaders test out their challengers they don't necessarily use less trained pokemon also using stronger ones without going with full force.

    Speaking of which even if Misty didn't hold back Sakura wasn't anymore beginner managing to surprise Misty with unexpected tactic Espeon used. Yes sometime less experienced trainer can defeat gym leader even if he goes on them with full force. Ash did that all the time when starting out in Kanto.

    So defeat from Sakura isn't valid indication through which we can judge Misty skills.

    Doesn't matter. Metronome is a random move and makes whatever move it wants appear. The moves naturally are going to be strong or weak depending on what pops out. That is not an indicator of Misty's abilities.
    It matters because strength of some move is determined on how powerful pokemon itself is. And Misty Togepi wasn't weak judging by strength of its moves.

    Yes that isn't indicator of Misty skills nor i ever said that, but judging by tiptop form Togepi was in beimng raised in strong, healthy Togetic serves as strong uindication how Misty has wide knowledge bout pokemon and knows how to keep them in excellent shape.


    1.Fishing.
    2.Jessie, not her Pokemon, and Psyduck Ex Machina.
    3.Movie race.

    Why don't we just give her the award. XP Stephan winning the Bell of Wishes Tournament is a strength indicator too, right? XD Ash winning the Bug catching competition shows his skill, too? XDDD
    Im sorry but beating strong trainer like Andreas with Poliwhirl who was weaker than Poliwrath conquering Fishing contest on first try, doing same with Princess festival who had hundreds of participants showing flexibility to know how to use other types beside water along with coming out in first place at race is much more impressive than winning some random bug catching contest or climbing to bell tower since it aside from races and various obstacles such as catch of wild pokemon involved trainers to battle and test their abilities in battle .

    Unlike examples you mentioned which were based either on luck or resistance, events Misty entered aside from this categories required also skill and sharp thinking having to prove herself as battler.

    Misty is a gym leader because she is one in the game, quit bringing her age into this as if that shows something about her.
    Several characters who are gym leaders in games like Brock,Misty(before departure), or Iris werent gym leaders in anime. Koga who was promoted to E4 for all we know is still gym leader in anime,several champions of pokemon leagues like Hoenn,Johto,Sinnoh etc were anime only characters like Harrison,Tyson or Tobias with Stephan never being champion etc not following game canon.

    Something which happened in games doesn't guarantee is going to be decanted in anime.

    It was established already several times how only trainers which possess big knowledge, high level of skill and ability to react quickly to unexpected situations fulfill requirements to be considered suitable for gym leader position. For same reason PIA inspector Joy from chronicles or inspector in Brock special showed to have rigorous standards about who is going to be gym leader and who wont with Misty and Forest proving themselves as skilled trainers who know how to react under pressure adapting quickly to any obstacle you throw in front of them leaving impression on inspectors from pokemon committee.

    When taking in account fact how out of thousands poke trainers in world only handful showed to be competent enough for leader position only further highlights how such position is hoid by those who proved to be above average with Misty, Tate or Lisa etc cases being all that more remarkable since they managed to hold such position at very young age already being step ahead from rest of their peers.

    In comparison most gym leaders are adults or among elder population.

    So yes Misty holding gym status already at age of 10 definitely shows something, and thats how she isn't your typical run of a mill trainer being above subpar trainers.
    And with desire of becoming water master one day with Lorelei being her idol, i say she jhasd solid chasnce to reach E4 position one day fulfilling her quest when taking in account how she proved her worth to several older, more experienced trainers than she is already.

    Misty was never shown to be overly powerful or even exceptional. Beating a Magikarp-fodder trainer, Harrison, and beating Ash with a DEM in the whole tournament. :P
    "Misty not showing to be powerful" is your own interpretation, aka headcannon. Canon showed otherwise, so please lets deal with facts shall we?

    It was clearly stated in Whirl Cup how only best 64 can advance to final rounds with preliminaries serving as test to get rid of weak competirtion.

    Defeating much older and more experienced trainer like Harrison who underestimated her due to less experience, defeating Ash in battle showing higher level of skill and knpwledge as well giving trainers like Trinity run for its money with Corsola defeating Gyaradpos with just one attack reaching quarterfinals already on first try is indication of skilled and talented trainer.

    And btw Misty didn't beat Ash through DEM. Like i explained before her Poliwhirl showed to be stronger than Totodile and it was Ash stupdity and inferior strategy which cost him match. Misty win over Ash in Whirl Cup was just as fair as Iris win in Club battle tournament.

    Because they're a bunch of filler OCs and she's a main character.
    Going by that logic we can apply same thing to May or Dawn high positions in GF, Iris win of Club battle, Ash conquering BF etc with their achievements not being fruits of their labour but only "works done for sake of plot."

    Just because Misty didn't had rivals or recurring characters to battle against doesn't diminish value of her achievements with there not existing any sustainable evidence pointing how "filler characters" she battled against were any less strong than competition May, Dawn, Iris, Cilan etc faced.
    In fact i believe examples from Whirl Cup, Seaking contest, trainers like Dorian, Keita or Hanson completely disproves that.

    1.Misty's age doesn't matter. It feels like you're grasping for straws for things to say about Misty.
    2.Flint was a plot device.
    It matters a lot because Ash, May and yes Misty too were several times recognized as exceptional trainers, coordinators since they managed to achieve so many things at such young age being ahead of most of their peers and much older trainers who tried for years to conquer what they did in very short time period.

    Also if your going to apply plot device in here, than what about two trainers who went Pallet town along with Gary failing to succeed in qualifying for league or dozen of trainers on daily basis which fail to pass gym leaders, preliminary rounds of prestige tournaments such as Whirl Cup etc?
    Were they plot device too?

    And no Flint being used as plot line through which substitute was provided for Pewter gym allowing Brock to leave doesn't change fact how he at much older age accomplished much less than Misty already did at 10.

    In real life if young people or kids manage to do something remarkable whether they are piano players, sportsman, artist etc being ahead of many teens or adults out there who still didn't come that far they are viewed in society as talented, above average in their own fields.

    So once again explain how exactly Misty was average if she came further in much shorter period of time than most peers and adults during whole life does?
    Do you even know what being average means?


    Um.....a LOT. Andreas was the fishing Champion. Misty winning half of that crap without her own Pokemon, not battling, and Psyduck's DEM confusion just makes me think of how little Misty actually did in terms of her own skill.
    Ok than give me at least one, just one example of average trainer which managed to win half of events with hard competition on first try like Misty did, grew and learn at fast rate being recognized as talented and strong trainer in several fields holding such high positions?
    Majority of trainers who entered competitions i mentioned which Misty entered were much older trying for years to win something which she managed to do on first try.
    If she was among typical average group than explain how she was able to come further in shorter period of time than most of other trainers we see didn't managed despite trying for years?

    Examples i mentioned and their notable improvement in short period of time are quality of very talented persons who were able to become better in shorter amount of time than several much older trainers ever did. Just like Ash, May or Dawn did. Seriously aside from Ash, Iris, Cilan or May are no more special than Misty was.

    Age doesn't matter, being recognized is not impressive. Let's focus on what Misty actually did and not what she could do or could have done. What she actually did.

    Age matters a lot because quality and talent of someone is determined through ability to accomplish something notable in shorter period than it would take for average person to do.

    Judging by what was showed in canon Misty wasn't among masses of subpar trainers you encounter on daily basis outclassing them through speed of improvement through which she went and value of achievements.

    Misty's DEM Psyduck, you're COUNTING that win? Are you serious? 0_o
    Your constantly throwing around word DEM even when that wasn't the case. Psyduck win over Kingler wasn't deux machina, being established since Kanto days how if he is put under pressure he is going to get headache releasing psychic powers. It was solely Ash recklessness and poor choice of strategy which net him lose.

    Misty won fair and square against Ash using better strategy, that's a fact. Poliwhirl was on higher level than Totodile and if Psyduck didn't messed up situation Misty would use Corsola which would give her edge in that battle.

    Her mirror coat would pose problem for long range attacks,recover would give her advantage in resistance while spike cannon was showed to be enough powerful to knock down Gyarados with one hit being treat. So no if Psyduck didn't popped out result wouldn't be any different and Kingler would still lost. Even so fact that Kingler was defeated with just one hit should tell you how powerful Misty pokemon are.

    In comparison many of her pokemon showed to be strong enough to beat opponents with single attack showing high level of experience. Such as Staryu knocking Tentacruel with one swift attack, Corsola knocking Gyarados with one spike cannon etc.

    Except Jessie was portrayed as steadily getting better at Contest in DP and a great coordinator. XP
    Are we talking about same Jessie which used James to win ribbons instead of her, disguised herself in other characters such as Fantina or got ribbons due to pity of other participants such as princess Salvia.

    Even if she arguably improved as coordinator, judging by Jessie rather terrible battle record in Sinnoh majority of time losing and being kicked from Ash and rest of crew shows how she wasn't any better than she was in Kanto, Johto or Hoenn as trainer.
    So no using Jessie as measure through which you will demean value of Misty achievement when winning Princess tournament loses its validity when taken in account how Jessie was also in semifinals of Sinnoh GF where Dawn ended as runner up.

    Wow, shows how mediocre her team was at the time she could only win using a wild Golduck. It would have spoke for Misty's actually strength if she won using her own Pokemon. Iris controlled Druddigon like a pro and Jessie did with Croagunk. I want you to answer me now, what makes Misty's case so special?
    Did you even watched episode? Misty didn't used wild pokemon because she couldn't won with her own pokemon with Staryu fast win over Tentacruel proving otherwise. But because she thought how Golduck was her own Psyduck which evolved.

    Speaking of your examples difference between Iris, Jessie and Misty is that Iris commanded Druddigon which wasn't wild but belonghed to Emmy, while Jessie controlling wild Croagunk doesn't say much when taken in account how she cheated when winning against trainers by having James delay battle for long enough to allow Cragunk to get up. Or doesn't change fact how Croagunk was stalker by nature being tricked into TR evil plan not being particularly hard task to control such pokemon properly.

    On other hand Misty used properly wild Golduck in battle being directly stated in canon how it takes lot of skill to control wild fully evolved pokemon like Golduck in battle, especially such strong one.

    Remember what i said about powerful pokemon not mattering much if trainer isn't strong enough knowing how to utilize his power properly?
    I believe Jessie poor strategy and choice of attacks she used even with pokemon which were trained to listen others such as Charizard and Bladtoise in battle park perfectly displayed this.

    Poliwhirl overpowered Totodile and Kingler overpowered Poliwhirl. Not only was Misty not more skilled than Ash but Psyduck whole win was complete crap.
    Psyduck win was completely fair with Misty rightfully taking advantage of situation on which Ash digged himself in because of reckless and poor choices. Needless to say Ash lower place in Whirl Cup with Misty showing more experuence in water field, worse place in Alto Mare race and worse demonstration in underwater battles against Dorian only further confirmed how Misty as trainer was never much behund him when it comes to battle abilities being a lot more adaptable in water environment.

    Yes they are. You're trying to spin Misty's Whrilcup Top 16 position into something amazing, but it simply isn't. I actually would love to make a thread to see what other forum members think of Misty's achievements in comparison to the other girls'.
    Im sorry but coming to quarterfinals in prestige tournament which is held every three years gathering trainers all over world is more notable than beating random 99 trainers with Drillbur and no less notable than Dawn second place in GF when taking in account relatively mediocre coimpetition she was put against.

    Not even counting fact how your downplaying value of Misty achievements in Princess tournament, Seaking contest water race and position of gym leader labeling them as non-impressve in order to make other characters look good,mhich is rather poor reasoning.


    Jessie was not weak in DP she was pathetic in Kanto. As a 6-year-old I, myself, even wondered how the hell Koffing and Weezing beat all those opponents in the first place when they usually got beaten by one move every episode.
    Jessie improved as coordinator but as battler she wasn't much better than she was in Kanto. In fact it was showed during whole tournament how she indeed isn't that bad trainer with Lickitung managing to outplay all Ash and Brock pokemon . That is she wasn't bad whenever she didn't battle Ash trying to catch Pikachu, with writers deliberately portraying her and James as incompetent and weak for sake of plot to have Ash and good guys save the day.

    Misty beat Georgio, Andreas, Jessie, Ash, Marina, and Harrison in formal battles.

    1.Georgio, not strong.
    2.Andreas, fishing champ.
    3.Jessie..Jessie....Jessie. Psyduck DEM.
    4.Psyduck DEM.
    5.Golduck usage.
    6.He's not exceptional.

    You just know Misty's wins were awful if half of them were by Psyduck DEMs and using others Pokemon.
    Your forgetting Joe, Keita, Sakura, Hanson and rest of crew she battled against in Princess tournament or Whirl Cup who weren't named.

    As for your classification of who is strong and who isn't once again your making assumptions based on nothing. We don't know how strong Georgio was with his dem,onstration against Misty Corsola showing that he indeed was tough opponent to defeat.

    Andreas proved to be strong with his Poliwrath and im not sure why your constantly trying to downplay his skills acting like he is only good at fishing? He was trainer just like Ash, Misty and rest of participants were simply being more skilled than majority of competition. Making ungrounded assdmptions how he is only good at fishing is same like saying how Georgia is only good when battling dragon types due to specializing in defeating them. See how ridiculous that sounds?

    Wins over Ash and Jessie were completely justified with poor strategy from Lickitung and even worse strategy from Ash being responsible for triggering Psyduck hidden powers which btw dosn't fall in category of DEM since it was well known what happens when Misty duck gets headache.

    Win over Marina is nothing to be scoof at either with Misty proving through successfull usage of wild olduck how she has wide knowledge and skill in utilizing powerful pokemon in optimal manner.

    Harrison wasn't easy to defeat at all. Once again your basing someone strrength and level of experience on nothing not being familiar with his basckground and achievements to form valid judgment out of it.

    Let stick with what we know, and thats how Harrison showed through battle and high knowledge abouit water types like Corsola how he is among stronger trainers which entered water cup.

    And the whole battle was a one-hit KO fest. =P Not the realistic kind either.
    How many times did we saw Ash , Dawn, Iris, May etc pokemon defeating others with one hit? Your acting like this happened only with Misty and as a matter of fact battle against Marina was believable. Starmie being knocked by hyperbeam was nothing to be schocked about with such attack usually defeating opponent in one hit, Staryu received hit returned at him with double strength through Psyduck reflect , Tentacruel poison sting defeating Goldeen was again believable and Staryu defeating jellyfish with one hit while may seem stretched at first glance isn't so strange when taken in account how it was directly stated how he is trained a lot being in excellent shape.

    No, she saw it use it against TR and did the same. It was no knowledge.
    Oh really? Than do explain how exactly Misty knew about psychic and confusion from Golduck using them to defeat Marina Psyduck despite not being showed by himself until he blasted away TR?
    Or how did she knew about fury swipes using them against Marina Starmie tackle despite not being showed prior to that?

    Your grasping at straws in here, it was Misty knowledge and well timed attacks which net her battle against Marina with Golduck only serving as tool in there to accomplish set aim.


    LOL, you did it again! XD You said that Shedinja didn't have Wonder Guard before because anime/=/games. Now you're saying Misty knew about Wonder Guard and won because she knew about it despite there being no mention of Misty knowing about Wonder Guard. :P
    Where did i said how Shedinja didn't used Wonder Guard? I used anime =/=games clausule in sense of emphasizing on point how just because Shedinja may have low resistance in games doesn't necessarily mean how that would be applied into anime as well. For example Magikarpo in games are often viewed as weak pokemon, but in anime judging by episode "Ya See We Want An Evolution" it was showed how Magikarp can be strong if trained well.

    Either way fact that Misty knew how to pass Wonder Guard while Aah and others had no idea shows how she is highly knowledgeable as trainer contrary to some belief.

    I'm sorry, she is stronger than Misty and more noteworthy. Bianca's Emboar is strong, Cilan's Pansage is strong, and Edmond I can't speak for. Either way I'm sure they're stronger than anything Misty ever battled.
    Once again your bringing assumptions out of nowhere. With exception of Dragonite Iris pokemon tream isn't any more impressive than Misty pokemon like Starmie, Politoad, Staryu or Corsola are and im pretty sure Gyarados could stand its ground against Dragonite. As trainer Iris may be prodigy but Misty showed high lvel of experience and skill proving herself through several tournaments or when battling strong trrainers constantly training and battling at gym.

    Battle between them could go either way and since Misty is more experienced in trainer battles than Dawn is , im inclined to believe how she would be tougher opponent for Iris to go against.

    Speaking of Bianca aside from Emboar rest of her team is pretty average being joke of trainer and Cilan while good didnpt in reality shoiwed anything so extraordinary which would make me believe how he is stronger trainer than Misty. If coordinator who is unfamiliar with trainer battles like Dawn could be on pair with him, than Misty who is much more experienced and skilled as trainer than Dawn was could surely go head to head against Cilan as well. Not to mention her pokemon team seems more impressive to me at moment than Cilan's containing more raw strength.

    Trying to make Stephan out to be crappy as a way to spin Misty into a strong trainer? Really? His Sawk has beat Montgomery's Throh(THis is the Pokemon that beat Excadrill), Pansage, Emboar, Leavanny under Swarm, and was going to KO Krookodile.
    I never said he was crappy but average, which he was. Having one powerful pokemon like Sawk while rest of team being nothing exceptional doesn't equate Stephan being "highly skilled" trainer.

    Either way the whole battle was a joke because.

    Chikorita, Pikachu, Bulbasaur >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Staryu, Togepi, Poliwhirl
    Only battle between Pikavhu and Togepi was joke. In rest of match Misty and Ash pokemon battled with full strength with Staryu and Chikorita being on equal grounds, while Bulbasaur was on last legs barely defeatong Poliwhirl.

    It certainly didn't seemed like Ash is miles away in skill and strength as trainer than Misty was in that battle with both seeming pretty equal with only type advantage grass pokemon had providing slight advantage to Ash there.

    Not strategy. Just attacking. Like Bianca's Emboar did against Sawk.
    Thats not even comparable. During battle betweem Bianca and Stephan we seen Sawk comstantly dodging Emboar until he raised up his offense enough to finish him of with one karate chop. That's not same as one pokemon charging itself for powerful move with other through constant barrage of attacks trying to intercept that.

    Here ill recap what i said before:Strategy isn't only composed of dodging, using combination of attacks or counter moves. We saw same strategy Misty used with Ash when battling Drake Venusaur with Tauros, when Totodile intercept Kingdra hydropump with bite, when Ash intercept Paul Aggron flash attack with Infernape mach punch etc.

    I repeat with a yes or no.

    Do you honestly think any Misty ever battled is on level with Drayden, Drew, or Zoey?
    Irrelevant to discussion. You constantly use this examples as ammunition to support your view of Iris and Dawn being strong battlers, but just because they were successful in battle against them doesn't mean Misty wouldn't be just as good when facing such opponents as well making your argument invalidated.

    Since Misty never faced them we cannot know what would outcome of that battle be not making others who battled them any better than she is.

    Brock or Cilan never faced them either but i don't see you labelling them as weak because they didn't battle them.

    ]
    We had two episodes with flashbacks, character mentions, and visual showing that said Iris is a prodigy and was sent to school to hone her skills. Do you honestly think the same applies to Misty?
    Misty was recognized and portrayed as powerful trainer by gym leader Koga and sister Aya, Dorian who was unofficial gym leade, Trinity which was runner upo of Whirl Cup, inspector Joy from league committee etc.

    Once again how being recognized by village elder and gym leader who specialize in dragons make Iris case any more special than Misty's? It only shows that she is prodigy but her recognition as strong trainer in canon isn't any more valid evidence than instances where it was directly stated through canon how Misty is skilled trainer as well.

    If we are going to use examples from canon as induication of Iris being strong trainer, than we can apply same thing to Misty being portrayed as skilled battler too.

    In a sense that makes it ever worse since Misty wasn't using her own Pokemon in the first place. At least with Jessie, the writers in DP treated all her and James' Pokemon as the same under one trainer. Even in the WIFI events. Misty's Pokemon are clearly Misty's Pokemon.
    Why does it matter so much that Misty didn't used her pokemon? She won tournament and came to finals through her own skill, choice of attacks and strategy when using Bulbasaur, Vulpix and Pikachu. It wasn't other way around. Not to mention your completely ignoring fact that Misty as water specialist which only used one type proved in there how she knows a lot about other types as well and how to use them properly showing versatility and ability of being highly adaptable there.

    Its easier to battle when using your own pokemon being familiar and synchronized with them, than it is when using other pokemon being unexplored territory for you especially if you primarily use one type rarely battling with other ones.

    Do you honestly think Misty is strong, let alone stronger than all the rest of those trainer? Nando certainly wasn't weak.
    Yes im certain Misty is stronger than Jessie as well Kenny, while with Nando ill say they are in middle ground.

    And that was a one-episode one-shot. These trainers actually gradually tamed their Pokemon in a realistic manner. You don't meet a person in real life and automatically start loving them, you gradually overtime develop feelings of love to them. It isn't instant.
    Thats very bad example. For example Cynthia managed to calm down Iris Dragonite and earn its respect in extremely short period of time, same did Elder from dragon villagfe. Should we also say for them how their actions provided there were unrealistic just because they weren't dragged down for several episodes?

    Your missing the point in here. In order to tame Gyarados it wasn't required several episodes because MIsty had greater deal of understanding and bonding between pokemon knowing how to deal with disobedience much quicker than Ash, Dawn or Iris does.

    Which makes her more competent in that field than they are honestly.

    ]
    That screams Misty is mediocre to me.
    Than provide at least one mediocre trainer which achieved so much in short period like Misty did?
    You still don't seem to unferstand what definition of average means with such trainers being majority of competitors you see on daily basis taking them years to accomplish all of this, sometimes even decades.

    You can acknowledge that but not Psyduck's headache solving powers? That win didn't come off as a DEM to me in the slightest, Eevee was shown to already have everything it needed to defeat Marshtomp and it's perfectly justifiable it turned the tide of the battle.
    It wasn't DEM but poor writing as i already acknowledged with writers forcing May win through worse Eevee strategy despite Brock Marshtomp using better strategy and had upper hand during whole match. One of most ridiculous comebacks ever.

    I didn't forget them. They just aren't impressive, except maybe Dorian.
    On what basis you came to such conclusion?

    Yeah, she's good enough to scrap by and beat filler OCs, not stronger than May, Dawn, or Iris. Certainly not stronger than any opponents they've faced.
    Your doing it again constantly downplaying strength of trainers MIsty faced, while glorifying opponnts other girls faced.
    Just because Misty didn't had luxury to battle rivals and reccuring characters like May or Dawn did doesn't mean trainers she faced were any less powerful than those others battled against.

    In other words your assuming something without proof to back it up.


    What the hell are you talking about? Misty's Psyduck wins were awful. Their wins were actually justified and showed their strength.
    Your acting like most Misty wins happened through Psyduck headache which wasn't the case at all.
    Out of 11 trainers Misty won against or tied she defeated 9(Joe, Sakura, Gergio, Hanson, brother trio, Harrison, Andreas, Marina and Dorian) through her other pokemon in justified way while only 2(Ash and Jessie in finals of Princess festival)were won through Psyduck.

    You're calling the Grand Festival average but trying to make the Whrilcup into this prestige competition that is more exclusive than the Garden of Eden? Really? I mean really?
    No i said how GF Dawn entered had rather average competition being much easier to come in top 2 among such competitors than it was case with May and opponents she faced in her Grand Festivals. LIkes of Jessie, Kenny and several unknown coordinatoirs doesnpt scream as "extraordinary strong competitors" to me with exception of Zoey and Ursula.

    If anything i believe Whirl Cup had harder competition to go against.

    I failed? Who are you to say that? I know you like Misty but that doesn't overrun a poor battle record. XP
    Except you did, Entire premise behind your argument is based on isolated scenes, assumptions and double standards using only few random off thrown scenes to support your argument. Your constantly downplaying value of Misty achievements while glorifying things May, Dawn or Cilan accomplished despite their merits not being in reality any more notable than Misty's were.

    Your constantly using Misty lack of battling as argument how she is subpar trainers commiting huge fallacy there because battling less than others in anime doesn't mean that person/trainer is any less skilled than other side is. In addition your turning blind eye to fact that Brock battled less than Misty and barely had any achievements yet for some weird reason you label him as stronger trainer than she is for no real reason at all.

    Your constantly disregarding any opponent Misty faced as weak or mediocre, while labeling those Cilan, Iris or May faced as strong simply because we know more about them than ones Misty faced. Which is again fallacy in itself because just because we are less familiar with someone doesn't indicate he is weaker trainer than those other main characters faced.

    Not to mention repeated use of isolated scenes using only examples where Misty won through Psyduck while ignoring almost every other scene where Misty won in justified way demonstrating her battle abilities and talent on screen.

    Im still waiting for any conceivable proof to support theory how May, Dawn, Irism, Cilan and Brock are stronger than Misty. But ok lets do analysis:

    Brock didn't showed any impressive strategy during his run rarely battling or training with his pookemon, he achieved very little since he didn't enter many events and his skills got rusty over time due to innactivity with easy defeats against several trainers as well inspector Joy in DP special only further confirming that.
    Already in Johto in comparison Misty seemed to surpass Brock battle abilities actuallly training and battling with her pokemon using them in more skilled manner with Brock easy defeat against Molly while Misty holding of her ground with Staryu only revealing how her pokemon are more trained and resistant.

    Not to mention fact how she battles on daily basis now at gym giving her ton of battle experience. Which makes me believe how only reason why Brock is viewed as "stronger" is because of his old glory when he used to be gym leader which hardly matters if you don't continue to nurture your skills as well because he has more evolutions.

    Certainly "objective".

    Next one is Dawn and May. In Dawn case she showed big improvement as coordinator but contests =/= real trainer battles. Coordinator battles focus more on making your attacks look elegant which is more important than straight confrontation. On other hand in trainer battles focus is more based on strength of pokemon itself and how resistant and powerful he is being won through strategy.

    Something where Misty clearly leads having a lot more battle experuence,being more knowledgeable and skilled than Dawn is in trainer battles being recognized more among trainers as well constantly training and battling at gym honing skills.

    Her pokemon never showed level of raw strength like Misty did either(such as Gyarados, Corsola and Staryu defeating opponents with one hit etc), so no Dawn isn't stronger than Misty is.

    As coordinator yes having more experience, but as trainer its a whole another ball game.

    May is however someone i would give slight edge, if only because May battling style was always more raw and straightforward making her contest battle rounds look similar to trainer battles absorbing such approach through Ash mentorship.

    Next one is Cilan. People often say how he is strong because he is gym leader, but going by that logic Misty is just as strong because shes gym leader too.
    As trainer Cilan didn't showed anything extraordinary to be considered as stronger than Misty having rather average win record with his pokemon not being any more impressive than Misty's . Especially when we take a look at Saryu, Starmie, Poliwhirl(later Politoad)who battled several strong pokemon defeating them or Corsola.

    If anything looking back if Cilan best pokemon Pansage couldn't go pass Dawn Piplup i highly doubt that any of his pokemon could go pass Gyarados, let alone rest of Misty pokemon.

    Lastly Iris may be prodigy but after taking in account how she didn't trained her pokemon like Excadrill for years due to disobedience, with her achievements being less impressive than Misty's who woin several competitions, battled several experienced trainers and build lot of battle experience in short period makes me think how between her and Misty it could be anyone game.

    Especially when aside from Dragonite, rest of her team doesn't seem any stronger than Misty pokemon. If anything Axew and Emolga seem fairly mediocre to me.Not to mention with Psyduck headache he could defeat any of her pokemon knowing his massive psychic powers.

    1.Isolated examples, what the hell? How is a Psyduck DEM defeating Kingler isolated?
    2.I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just looking for actually strategy and not straw grasping.
    3.Misty winning a bunch of competitions that revolve around not-battling does not make me think Misty's achievements are anything to write home about.
    I gave you several examples where Misty won fairly through other pokemon, yet you still only focus on few random battles where Psyduck was used. I provided several situations where Misty showed strategic use of her pokemon and many competuitions where her battle abiities came on surface making rapid grow forward but yet again everything was discarded,.

    Its not my fault that your ignoring everything Misty did while guving more credit than deserved to opponents and events other entered making assumptions about Misty being weak out of nowhere. Which isn't objective analysis..

    For record: every Psyduck win wasn't deux machina with this word often being throwed even when that isn't the case. Opponent poor strategy was responsible half the time for netting themselves lose being established already how headache increase ducks power.

    With that, this debate is over. At least for me. In the future if you wanna end a debate, you should just step up and end it yourself. It's okay if you want the last word, I don't mind. :P
    Fine by me, and assuming i don't get any other replies from my part im done with this discussion as well.

    In nutshell i respect your opinion, but i still respectively disagree finding Misty was more skilled and stronger trainer than some people are willing to give her credit for. Simply because she was one type trainer and battled less than some others did never having chance to be used to full potential and show her battle abiities more on screen.
    Perhaps if she came back and showed more of her abilities in battle people view on her abilities would be better formed not dealing only with assumptions .
    Last edited by pokemon fan 132; 8th January 2013 at 04:21 AM.

  11. #146
    Registered User Codface's Avatar
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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Iris wins since Dragonite appears to be elite 4 level bad ass power in the anime. No other companion has had a pokemon of its level and it doesnt really matter she is a poor trainer she'd still win. Other companions might be more skilled but seriously that thing is a monster.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    I had to say Iris, because she defeated Dawn and Ash with Dragonite. Without Dragonite, maybe Dawn with Mamoswine.

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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    May! She had an amazing, versatile team and was always up and ready for pokemon battles.
    Plus, not only is she a good Coordinator, she also has strong pokemon.
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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    Damn, the tension created by all those arguements above is so thick even a Secret Sword would fail to cut it...

    I'd have to say Iris. Whether you like it or not, that Dragonite is a force to be reckoned with and most of her other Pokemon aren't pushovers either. In fact, I don't think her Emolga has lost an offical battle yet.
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    Default Re: Strongest battler of Ash's friends? Cilan Vs. May Vs. Brock Vs. Misty Vs. Iris, e

    I'd have to say May. She's got the most diverse yet balanced team after Ash, she spends plenty of time training and battling, she's creative and improvises a lot, and she puts a lot of effort into her Pokemon and their moves (mainly thanks to her great rivals, who keep her on her toes). Even though she barely had a clue to what she was doing at first, she overcame that and showed off impressive hidden talent. She's also got plenty of spunk, and can easily be motivated, not letting a loss drag her down. So I'm going with May.
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