@Ranger Jack Walker: You talked about in an earlier post (sorry I lost it, correct me if im misrepresenting your thoughts) how Misty not making a real attempt at training Psyduck adds to her incompetence, and claiming Psydukck is un-trainable and lacking in mental stability is a poor argument to make for why Misty couldn't train it, I would disagree. I think you also said other trainers have had to deal with the same thing and overcame those obstacles, could you point me to one of these examples? I've followed the show from the beginning, and I can't recall a trainer (save for a few COTD's maybe) being able to fully train a Pokemon as incompetent and mentally unstable as Psyduck. Maybe im wrong, but Psyduck - taking its ridiculous level of incompetence into account - is a bad example if you're arguing against Misty's skills as a trainer.
I like Misty and May, but I would give Misty the nod. Not necessarily because I think she's a "better trainer" than May, i've just always really enjoyed her personality, as a kid back then and as a 20 year old now. I think the popular flaws people like to point out about Misty can be attributed to the fact she was "the first". With May (and the others that would proceed) the writers had more to build off of/learn from. There was more of a testing ground to reference for May if you will, and I think - to a degree - that's why May was handled better. Just my opinion, I love both characters.
Something which isn't case for Togepi showing from start to have extremely powerful moves produced by metronome. None of examples you count showed that level of power when using metronome or other special moves to actually wreck of mountain or whole TR base from Butch and Cassidy.
Stop red herring. In here we are discussing about May pokemon, not Dawn, Iris, Paul, Ash's or anyone else for that matter.Misty's Pokemon were highly resistant and fast swimmers? They came off no more special as any other Pokemon. Squirtle and Lapras pulled a raft alongside Staryu and Goldeen. Guess they's fast swimmers and highly resistant too? What about Piplup who helped tail TR alongside Ash in early DP in Turtwig's capture episode? Or Buizel and Piplup when they tried to out do the wild Gyarados? Misty's haven't done anything more special than any other Water-types on this show in swimming or resistance. When I think of resistant I think of Paul's Pokemon immediately and how Magmortar, Ursaring, or Torterra could take so much punishment or Dragonite who stands up to Ice-type moves like a champ.
Speaking of which Piplup being tossed away by TR or wild Gyarados is nothing to be proud of, nor is Buizel which deal very little dmg with his attacks being solely Pikachu merit for beating Gyarados down with thunder in water(go figure).
Now back on subject.
In comparison i don't recall any of May pokemon showing to be particularly fast and resistant swimmers, or flexible in battle like some of Misty pokemon were. Which showed to be much more agile and fast in water environment often being involved in rescue missions or stopping mutated pokemon like Tentacruel from wrecking things up, being able to be on pair with mirage pokemon like Mantine, or knocking pokemon of high level like we saw with Corsola knocking down others with single spike cannon, Staryu through swift or rapid spin etc.
Most battles Staryxu was in, he came of as winner so im not sure how exactly that can be considered unimpressive? Staryu proved to be very fast, resistant and strong as swimmer often being involved in rescue missions and his strong attacks like swift, rapid spin which break through Mantine whirlpool trap or water gun showed to be very strong.In most of the battles Staryu was in it was largely unimpressive, Ash's Chikorita for example managed to out do it. Misty even commented herself Staryu had a more larger amount of experience than Chikorita. That didn't change the fact Chikorita managed to Vine Whip one-shot Staryu though. I thought it was pretty weak and only ever did most of anything by battling Team Rocket.
You say how being defeated by Ash Chikorita is sign of said pokemon being weak? Yet your forgetting fact how he battled against grass pokemon which had type advantage and how only reason why Chikorita came of as winner wasn't because she was stronger or more resistant. But because she caught Staryu on surprise through unusual use of vine whip.
Should we than say how Koga, Bugsy, Brawly, Roark etc or just about any other trainer or gym leader pokemon were weak too just because Ash less experienced pokemon managed to out do theirs such as Charmander, Chikorita, Turtwig etc beating Golbat, Spinarak or Rampardos?
Not to mention during that battle it was clearly showed who had stronger attacks, when Staryu water gun almost managed to defeat Chikorita with single hit saving itself in last second by digging heels into the ground.
So let me get this straight, your downplaying opponent Misty battled or her pokemon simply because back in day battles were less detailed and strategic unlike its case now?The whole battle was a shoddy rushed one-hit KO fest, I hardly call it a marker of Misty's strength as a trainer. Run-of-the-mill trainers like Marina one-shotting your whole team and you one-shotting them back doesn't make me think either side is exceptional. Especially since Misty was using a Goldeen that wasn't hers and her Goldeen was thrashed easily. Staryu being the only one who could win that was Misty's Pokemon.
How exactly different style of writing indicates that Marina was subpar trainer, or for that matter how exactly defeating pokemon with one hit is indication of opponent side being weak?
Going by your logic same can be said for May Combusken which defeated Vibrava with single megakick, Skitty defeating others through lucky Blizzard, Dawn Gabite with one ice fang,Dragonite defeating Beartic with one thunder punch, Dawn defeating Herdier, Cilan Galvantula ,Ash Karrablast with one hit etc.
Marina pokemon from what was showed were definitely strong with Psyduck powerful counter knocking Staryu with its own water gun, Starmie lightscreen almost stopping hyper beam and Tentactruel was strong too.
So no, Misty didn't won because she battled "weak" trainer, but simply because she used better strategy and because of her pokemon being well trained. Such as Staryu whose strength was commented on in episode with excellent shape reflecting that when defeating Tentactuel with one hit.
And i already thought whole thing with Golduck was explained in other thread. It doesn't matter if he was Misty pokemon or not, because it was her choice of attacks and strategy which won her match being pointed out in that same episode how she wouldn't be able to control Golduck so well and win with it without great deal of skill.
You should rewatch whole episode than because battle wasn't rushed at all, with James going at Misty with full strength battling for noble reasons. Such as to save his friend Jessie.
In comparison you can say whatever you want about TR, but Misty never lost battle against Jessie and James. Something which was anything but true with Ash whose Bayleef, Treecko or Cyndaquil were getting beat on several occasions, or Dawn which lost two contests when battling them.
Yet you downplay any achievement she had as "irrelevant and pathetic", constantly raising the bar making it look like she did nothing. While overestimating achievements from other characters who did things we already saw with Misty in one way or another.I'm mostly neutral to Misty, so don't lump me in there with others.
No im not suggesting, im pointing out fact. Misty pokemon lasted much longer when battling Molly pokemon than Brock Onix, Zubat or Vulpix did being beaten with single hit.What in the world are you talking about? Are you suggesting that Misty's Staryu didn't get battered as badly as all of Misty's other(And Brock's Pokemon) just because we didn't see it? We can clearly see Misty was hardly a match for Molly's souped up dream Pokemon. And again, why are we using a movie as a massive indicator of Misty's strength? It doesn't make me think Misty's strong, it just reminds me how little Misty's Pokemon did that we're using a movie battle. Even if the battle is taken into account her Pokemon still got beaten pretty badly.
Unlike them Misty Staryu resisted Whirlpool and bubblebeam not affecting him in slightest despite Mantine attacks being 2x stronger than from normal pokemon would be, along with Staryu rapid spin being of equal strength to Molly pokemon take down.
Misty and Molly were completely even in that battle which was left unfinished, so no claiming how Misty was badly beaten and just as easily like Brock would be huge understatement, fallacious thing to say.
Way battle was portrayed and ended indicates opposite being likely that match resulted in draw.
And yes im using movie example because it perfectly demonstrated Staryu resistance and strength showing to be powerful pokemon.
Why? Because you say so?I'm sorry, there's no way Staryu beat Mantine.
Seeing how she wasn't wrecked on screen holding her ground against Molly, its safe to conclude how this wasn't the case.Dream Pokemon, movie battle, Misty's got wrecked off-screen more than likely.
So basically your again downplaying strength of Andreas Poliwrath simply because he entered Seaking contest? For all we know he could be trainer like Ash, Misty or most participants there being good both at battling and fishing.Poliwhirl defeated a Poliwrath owned by a fisherman and later on in Johto got wrecked by a Poliwrath owned by a very strong trainer. It managed to batter Bayleaf and was supposedly stronger than Pikachu. Poliwhirl got smashed by Sakura's sister's Vaporeon with ease as well, Ash's Bulbsaur too, Poliwhirl beat Totodile, Magikarp, and Poliwrath iirc and that's it. The point I'm trying to make is that Poliwhirl and Corsola were decent battlers at best. Not bad but not amazing either.
Likewise being defeated by another Poliwrath kinda fails in attempt of portraying Misty pokemon week when taken in account how Misty pokemon water gun was of same power as its evolved form attack losing because Poliwrath simply had higher advantage due to being final stage pokemon and due to bigger physical strength.
So its not shameful that Poliwhirl ended defeated, not being to expect that non evolved pokemon defeat all the time fully evolved ones of their specie whom have more advantage.
Same applies to Ash Bulbasaur which was on its last legs with his razor leaf and tackle being overpowered by Poliwhirl body slam and bubble beam, being on its last legs winning through lucky solar beam.
Hardly something i would call indication of Misty pokemon being weak, when opponent side wins through luck.
I don't know how can anyone claim that Corsola and Poliwhirl weren't impressive battlers. Especially when Corsola proved to be very strong pokemon defeating Gyarados, Dorian Mantine, Harrison Quilfish and several other strong pokemon despite being newly caught pokemon at that time. Or Poliwhirl which was superior to Ash Bulbasaur during whole battle, managed to outdo Andreas Poliwrath which was in vastly superior position as remarked by Brock, and wrecked Ash Totodile with ease.
That's not indication of average, but strong battlers.
Yes because "Clair apparently didn't trained her Gyarados in meantime". Gimme a break, if her Gyarados resisted two thunders powered with double quick attack from Pikachu in OS, seeing how she trained her pokemon just as Ash did his Pikachu result wouldn't be any more favorable for Ash in AG or DP either.The Gyarados in DP got beaten by one Thunderbolt. Clair's didn't last long against Pikachu and got beaten by a QT and two Electric attacks. This is OS-level Pikachu. Trinity's Gyarados got beaten by one Spike Cannon from Corsola iirc. Pikachu one-shotted Wake's Gyarados. The Red Gyarados was rampaging and clearly meant to "last" for the sake of the plot. Gyarados in this show have been portrayed to have pretty crappy staying power.
The Mastermind Special.....okay, are you serious? The Special had every Pokemon surviving those attacks, Misty's wasn't the only one and even then it's hardly canon and makes me think Gyarados, along with all the other Pokemon, survived those attacks for the sake of the plot otherwise they all would have been killed.
Trinity Gyarados was defeated with one spike cannon because he received critical hit as commentator pointed out, being hit in weak, fragile spot(its neck).
And Red Gyarados lasted so long because it was resistant and in rage mode, crushing down your theory how Gyarados have low defense. Something which clearly isn't the case.
Yes they lose relatively quickly to thunder, but in comparison to other water types they can take a hell lot more from electric type than most other pokemon of their specie could. Additionally aside from spike cannon attack, i never seen any Gyarados being easily defeated unless thunder from Ash Pikachu was involved.
Speaking of which your discarding example from Mastermind special applying it to plot armor?? Seriously?
Funny how when i provide examples to counter your argument you pin it on "plot armor", while at same time your using using examples where Misty pokemon were in unfavorable position as ammunition to your view.
If we are going to debate in such way, than any lose and failure from Misty, May, Dawn, Iris, Ash or anyone else pokemon can be apply to being done for "sake of plot" as well not being credible indication/ source on which we can determine if Misty was skilled trainer or not.
Because two known attacks his Gyarados has are less effective and impressive than any of moves Misty pokemon has when comparing them individually. Wake Gyarados didn't showed to know any defense moves which would give him edge when battling types at advantage like electric or grass. Unlike Misty's which knows protect and whirlpool, or flamethrower to neutralize grass attacks.I was making a point that we never saw Wake's full moveset, how you can gather from that that Misty's is stronger solely based on its moveset despite it never being in a formal battle I don't understand.
Offensively bite and dragon rage contain less power and flexibility than hydropumo or Hyperberam Misty pokemon knows making him more effective in battle.
Needless to say Wake Gyarados being easily beaten with just one volt tackle=less noteworthy than Gyarados blasting three Tentacruel, Shedinja and holding its ground against legendary pokemon like Mewtwo or Articuno.
That's just nitpicking. Official battle can contain 2 on 2(tag duel), even 3 pokemon at once. Match was held at Cerulean gym, rules were set by judges and approved by PIA inspector Joy. Therefore match between Gyarados and brother trio was formal.Again a real formal, typical battle format. One on One. It never battled in a formal battle.
And from where you get impression that they were very weak? Because their Tentacruel didn't seemed that weak at all knocking down Corsola which battled far more experienced trainers than they were .Just because someone played dirty and cheated doesn't display in accurate way what is strength level of certain trainer.
Even so breaking through hydro pump from three fully evolved water type and sending them to stratosphere was indeed indication of Gyarados strength being impressive no matter how you look at it. Hell not many pokemon can do this what he did with such ease.
True of a part doesn't make something true as a whole.I never said Misty was weak, I said she was average. Don't put words in my mouth. They came off as weak because of the way they presented themselves, ambushing trainers in a battle that they're losing in, TR-ish mannerisms, etc.
Going by such logic should we say how villains like Team Galactic or Team Plasma, Cyrus , Ghetsis, Giovanni etc are weak trainers too? Because they ambush people and use dirty tricks too in achieving their goals.
Or Hunter J , Tyson from TR which used two Fearow against Lance Dragonite?
Harley which pfzten cheated and tried to sabotage May plans? Etc, etc.
Being villain and resorting to tricks=/= necessarily mean that same villain is weak trainer.
Im bringing up age for one simple reason. Just like its case in real life if young people or kids manage to do something remarkable whether its in music, sport, artist field etc being ahead of many teens or adults out there they are viewed in society as talented, above average in their own fields.Don't know why you're bringing up age, it's the same exact thing with every other kid in this show. Don't know about the accomplishment things either, Misty's only battle tournament was the Whirlcup. She beat a Magikarp and Qwilfish, the Qwilfish was about to smash Corsola and Misty was lucky enough it got locked into Corsola's horns just like Ash was lucky Georgia's Pawniard's claws got stuck in the ground. Misty didn't pull some amazing tactic or strategy out of the gate to beat Qwilfish. Misty only beat Ash thanks to Psyduck.
Same applies to pokemon, not every kid is going to accomplish half of things Misty did during her run, hold respectable position t very young age ad beat older, more experienced trainers coming further in tournaments etc. Making them be one step, or even two ahead of their peers.
Speaking of tournaments, your forgetting that she won Princess tournament from Kanto and ended as runner up in tournament organized to get Togepi. Let along other achievements such as fishing contest, races, beauty contest, playing important role in moving plot forward ad preventing disasters caused by human or pokemon factor etc.
Your acting like Misty had no accomplishments at all, simply because she didn't do contests or entered tournaments on daily basis.
Speaking of Whirl Cup, regardless of Quilfish ending stuck in Corsola horns or not Misty would have won. During whole match she had upper hand showing more skill and determination such as blocking water attacks with mirror coat catching opponent of guard, confronting pin missile with spike canon from Corsola etc.
Along with Corsola using recover being fully healed when Quilfish was about to hit her with tackle ending stuck in horns. So i don't know how much credibility your argument holds of trying to portray this as win through luck, and how otherwise Misty would have lost when that wasn't case at all.
Same applies to Ash, even without Psyduck Misty would have likely won showing to have more experience and skill in utilizing water pokemon in their water environment in much better, more productive manner than Ash really did.
Beside the point. Unlike others it was Misty who figured out how to break Shedinja defense, something Ash, May and Brock had no clue with their attempts failing in process.If Misty showed so much knowledge of Shedinja why did she send out her Corsola and have it use Spike Cannon in vain earlier on? She just happened to command Flamethrower from Gyarados, something any trainer would do when battling a Bug-type Pokemon.
As far as battle itself goes, yes every trainer would use flamethrower against bug type, but not every trainer water pokemon would know flamethrower using it to beat bug type.
Something Misty trained her pokemon at gym developing counter strategy against types which may have advantage against water pokemon.
So your discarding this because battles were short? What kind of argument is that?
Except Ash wasn't battling Graveler but Cubone. And second like i already mentioned before he won through luck, element of surprise against Giselle. Not because he was more experienced, skilled than her.You brought up the fact Giselle was the strongest in the school, yet Ash's vastly less experienced Pikachu beat Cubone and lasted longer.
So how exactly this amounts to Ash being better trainer at that time?
Your missing the point in here, with said examples being listed to show you how rookie winning against older, more experienced trainer isn't sign of him being more skilled, knowledgeable. There are several factors present during battles beside skill such as luck, surprise element, catching someone of guard etc.I don't care about "older" or age. This is Pokemon, kids beat older trainers all the time. At the end of the day it's about skill.
Your forgetting bubble attack. But in all honesty its irrelevant in here if it was formal or informal battle, it was still battle.
So yes, contrary to some belief Horsea did battled.
Than we can say how May win over Drew, Harley , Kanata, Ogata or any other trainer or coordinator for that matter happened simply because plot called for it(allowing to collect ribbons to enter GF).Team Rocket lose to everyone. Whether they be JJM or BC. The writers made Luvdisc win easily because the plot called for it.
Same applies to Dawn and her qualification for GF, Ash coming top 4 in Sinnoh league etc, etc, etc.
See where this goes?
Everything in this show happens because plot call for it, since writers decide what actions they are going to take with characters and story.
But that doesn't change fact how its in writer intention to show through battle and someone achievement how skilled, truly successful character they write for is.
And they portrayed Misty as successful trainer , with her Luvdisc being well trained.
Skitty win against Jinx was one of most ridiculous wins ever. Jinx successfully repelled all attacks with psychic keeping match under control,or brushed it of not being affected by them in slightest(such as petal dance), Skitty was thrown left and right with blizzard and psychic attacks just to have Skitty in last minute produce firespin it needed(how convenient). Which not only countered hyper beam, but overpower it bringing Jinx down on last legs.Skitty's win against Jynx was controlled luck, Assist didn't even give May the move she wanted. She had to go through half a dozen moves before she got what she needed to knock out Jynx and Munchlax won through luck, when? Please name some battles Munchlax won through luck. I remember pretty much all his battles, he was my favorite of May's Pokemon and never once do I recall him winning by luck. Squirtle and Eevee won through Deus Ex Machina? When? I don't remember Squirtle or Eevee gaining anything they didn't already have to beat an opponent in the midst of a battle.
Whole battle was unbelievable and based on luck. Im not even going to count win against Dusclops which was completely contrived and badly written.
As far as Munchlax goes, let see. Forestalling other opponents with attacks which require charging such as solar beam compared to Politoad which attempted to use water gun , or producing most convenient move it needed when May was in losing situation through metronome such as thunder isn't something i would call well written battle. Ok perhaps luck was exaggeration, but speed of Munchlax attacks and his overall strength was exaggerated quite a few times. Such as knocking Wigglytuff from Harley down with single focus punch.
And Squirtle was pretty much epitome of deux machina. Such as against Harley Ariados which completely tangled Squirtle making him immobile, none of his attacks were effective against Ariados, he didn't learn how to use and control ice beam and than all of a sudden when Harley pokemon almost finished match miraculously Squirtle managed to free itself from web, hit its target and knock it down with tackle(one of weakest attacks out there).
Dem doesn't only involve learning new attack out of nowhere, but resolving unsolvable situation through some higher factor(this case being luck).
Speaking of Eevee i don't know about you but win over Brock Marshtamp was completely cheap and forced. During whole battle round Marshtamp successfully countered Eevee shadowballs through protect or water gun, countered its dig attacks beating him left and right with multiple water guns, mud shots or tackles, just to have newly hatched baby pokemon not only resist more than it could possibly had but turn whole match around in extremely short time period by dodging all attacks and using contrived repeated use of what? Simple tackle?
You say Misty pokemon like Psyduck were DEM and won through luck giving her cheap wins? At least Psyduck can be excused due to this happening for comedy purposes being intended to play role of bringer of humor, rather than to be taken seriously.
What is excuse for May pokemon? Other than poor writing.
Are we talking about same Corsola which defeated Quilfish from experienced water trainer, knock Gyarados down with one hit, defeated Mantine from unofficial gym leader, Delcatty etc? Or Politoad which as Poliwhirl overpowered one of Ash strongest grass types and almost defeat it, overrun Poliwrath, Totodile or Hitomonchan?Blaziken, Beautifly, Munchlax, and Wartortle proved their strength, no doubt. Politoed and Corsola were decent, Staryu was weak, and Gyarados is questionable. We know nothing about its battle history(No I mean a real battle) or any battles its been in, though it's probably strong as most Gyarados traditionally are.
I mean come on, Combusken beats a Grumpig, two Dragon-types, Absol, Venusaur, evens out with Sceptile. Those are just a few wins I remember, Misty's Corsola barely scraps by with a win against pedestrian trainers like Harrison, with a little luck as well.
Or Staryu which defeated Tentacruel from strong water trainer Marina with one hit, prove its worth by being on pair with mirage pokemon from Molly being of equal strength, along with coming of as very resistant and flexible pokemom?
I don't even need to count Gyarados which would pose issue for half of May team.
Sorry but i don't consider pokemon from May you listed as any stronger than Misty's. Especially when half of her team relied mostly on luck or plot armor(bad writing) whether it was Skitty, Squirtle or Eevee.
And i can hardly consider wins against coordinators like Ogata , Kelly, Joshua or Brianna which were beginners as some magnificent accomplishment. Especially when in half of those battles Combusken struggled being on verge of losing winning through poor writing. Such as surviving Venusaur frenzy plant twice(ridiculous), defeating it with single peck and sky uppercut. Or defeating Vibrava which trapped it in sad tomb and repelled all of its attacks, magically learning new attack megakick not only freeing itself but knocking pokemon down. Talking about believable battles.
You say trainers Misty battled were weak? Despite proving their worth and showing to be competent. While glorifying May opponents, and envisaging them as stronger than they appeared to be?
Way i see it that's called playing card of double criteria.
I meant how they have potential to grow in stronger powerhouses than May pokemon currently are.So, Misty's Pokemon have more to offer in terms of movesets so that makes them better? What?
Weak only in your opinion. There is difference between assessment and fact, with canon and writers portraying them for most part as strong or decent battlers.You can hypothetical situation all day long but at the end of the day we're going by what we know and have seen of these Pokemon. Misty's were pretty weak. You seriously don't think May is just sitting around eating all day do you?
And i don't recall i ever said how May isn't training, but so is Misty. If not even more. I only said how generally at current state her pokemon seem to have more potential as whole.
And how this in any way confute what i said about Psyduck? Your comparing apples to oranges, because quite frankly none of pokemon in main cast showed such hidden power stored in itself like yellow duck did. That's why it is considered special.Ash's Turtwig showed higher speed and power than normal Turtwig did, to the point that strong experts like Roark, Paul, and Gardenia were shocked by incredible speed displayed by acknowledging it was faster than ordinary Turtwig were. See how this works?
You can't play double card in here. If we are going to count Psyduck strength as whole, than we are going to take in account his power both in non and in headache state. And seeing how most of its psychic powers comes through later state is the only state which really counts showing enormous strength for such small pokemon.Misty's Psyduck, a prodigy. Okay, not really. A prodigy is a savant in the sport of battling, often being competent right off the bat. Misty's sucked without a headache. Legendary baby Pokemon, for example, are prodigy, not Misty's Psyduck. Dawn's Cyndaquil hatched and was very competent right off the bat and evened out with Grotle and helped beat Lyra and Khoury alongside Monferno.
Than Munchlax would have very limited pool of options to use. And we still don't know if Psyduck improved since last time we saw him learning to better control his powers.Munchlax defeating that extremely tough-looking Wigglytuff with one Focus Punch and doing the same with Cacturne with a little help from Eevee's Shadow Ball was impressive. Psyduck defeating beating Kingler, Jessie, Team Rocket, Zizagoon, and Poochyena in battles with his headache Psychic powers. Yeah. Psyduck was a strong Pokemon when he was under that effect but most of the time pretty useless, if they were in a battle and Psyduck never got hit in the head Munchlax would be the obvious winner.
No, but knowing more about pokemon strategies, pokemon types, attacks or how league and gym works along with having more pokemon and experience at training and battling does.Misty knowing that using Water Gun on a Fire-type is good, just like every other trainer, doesn't speak leaps and bounds about her knowledge and experience as a trainer.
Than you might want to watch Original series, because Misty helped several times Ash abut strategy prior to battling opponents and suggested what pokemon to use during Indigo league, in Blaine or Sabrina gym etc. Helping him to come up with strategy in Whirl Cup, grass tournament or against trainers in Johto league such as Macy or Gary.Misty prepared strategies for Ash? When? I remember Brock helping with the plan to battle Raichu and that's that. Misty pointed out his flaws and how to fix them? All I remember was her telling him the typical type commentary we hear from every character.
Pointed out his poor choice of pokemon to use in battle teaching him about type advantage, often served as push and motivator in bettering himself.
Such as pushing him to train instead of lying around doing nothing before important battles, gave him often reality check putting him down when he got carried away with his skill referring to his mistakes. Solving clues for Ash allowing him to even earn right to challenge gym leaders(like Blaine), teach him about things like registration and how league formats work reminding him of such things and pointing in right direction, such as in Orange league. Influenced outcome of battles against gym leaders like Danny or Rudy, teased and criticized Ash abilities, causing competitive fire between them wanting to prove her wrong trying harder which resulted in passing challenge and earning badge.
So if i got this right when others say for May and Iris how they are strong trainers, you are using it as proof of their abilities.We had two episode telling us Iris was a prodigy from a young age(Mirror to the games.) and May had a fast learning curve if anything, Misty being recognized by COTDs, something just about every MC in this show has had doesn't make me think Misty was high level or skilled or talented.
While denying that same thing for Misty?
You can't play favorites in here. Through whole course of show writers portrayed Misty as talented, successful trainer already at young age with several experienced battlers recognizing potential and remarkable knowledge she showed about water types and battling in general.
Showed to be fast learner and quick thinker knowing how to adapt to unfavorable situations and turn tide of duel in her favor, got recognized through several competitions making impressive result along with strength and resistance of pokemon reflecting huge determination, competitive fire and skill lying in her.
Otherwise she wouldn't be viewed as such by other pokemon experts such as Koga or Aya, Trinity, Dorianetc, got invited by dr. Yung to attend demonstration of mirage pokemon calling only exceptional trainers, receive recognizion from PIA inspector etc.
Jessie wasn't any more competent as trainer in DP than she was in Kanto. She was still badly beaten on daily basis by Ash and others along with James. That is she was portrayed as bad whenever she battled Ash trying to catch Pikachu, with writers deliberately portraying her and James as incompetent and weak for sake of plot to have Ash and good guys save the day.This was clearly at a time where Jessie couldn't battle for beans and James was portrayed as being very very good at PokeRinger. A supposed wiz at it from a young age.
When we saw them battling fairly in tournaments such as contests, pokeringer, princess Kanto tournament etc they usually came of as decent, even good at times trainers.
So no, you can't use Jessie as ploy to belittle value of achievement Misty accomplished by winning tournament in kanto, while at same time ignoring fact that same character was present in contests and Grand Festival Dawn, May entered trying to portray it as some sort of success.
Except it shows resistance, strength and speed of her pokemon reflecting good shape and fact that they are well trained being quality of strong trainer , rather than weakling which just wriggles through events.Misty winning a race says nothing about her as a trainer, we can all clearly see her Pokemon are weak and unimpressive in battle despite winning a race.
Untrained weak pokemon don't win races or battles. Strong ones do.
Not really, Poliwhirl was "born" in same episode Ash caught Totodile meaning how same amount of time passed prior to Whirl Cup where trainers had opportunity to train their pokemon and work on their abilities. Misty simply trained better her Poliwhirl using better tactic against Ash when facing Totodile using smartly water element to bring her pokemon close enough to limit what Ash could do.Poliwhirl just straight up overpowered Totodile, but Totodile was never hugely impressive and fairly new to the team compared to Poliwhirl. The battle involved zero skill from either side, they both just attacked each other over and over. I don't see how Corsola would likely win against Kingler, the latter has more experience and was more impressive in its battles by that point and Corsola is also a Rock-type and battling a Water-type, as mentioned by Brock, would be dangerous.
As far as Corsola against Kingler goes, its very simple. Her mirror coat would pose problem for long range attacks,recover would give her advantage in resistance while spike cannon was showed to be enough powerful to knock down Gyarados with one hit being treat. Making Kingler finding himself in rather unfavorable position.
Corsola wasn't damaged by sparks, but exhausted when reflecting them back at Chinchau. Which isn't that surprising since it had tough battle with Garados prior to that spending lot of energy in repelling his attacks.Corsola took the brute of the damage from Spark(Electric Spark is what it was called in that episode for some reason.)and Chinchou barely felt anything. Later on in the match Corsola got confused and than blasted by a Water Gun. It was defeated with a total of two low power attacks.
So no its not that Corsola was easily defeated, but its more that she was low on energy. Not to mention your forgetting how as half rock she is dainty to water type attacks. Just like any ground or fire type there is.
My point still stands. Beating one of best pokemon from experienced high level trainer like Trinity forcing her to give all is nothing to scoff at.
Also i don't know about you, but water gun isn't weak attack. Its not especially strong, but not miniscule either.
That's a very bad analogy to make. We are talking about same Seaking which put up fight against Ash Pikachu and Misty Poliwhirl, while in comparison Andreas Poliwrath was so strong that he managed to weaken them with ease playing around. While others struggled in comparison.Those Seaking were pretty much Magikarp and Poliwrath was owned by a fisherman, not a battler. That says nothing about its strength.
Also just because we saw him participating in fishing, doesn't mean he wasn't battler. He could very likely be both with high level of his Poliwrath on who Brock commented and strength of its attacks reflecting how it was very well trained.
Than explain why Brock isn't gym leader. Why Stephan isn't Hoenn champion? Koga E4? etc.Except Misty is a Gym Leader because she is one in-game, that's it.
Like i said anime=/=games.
Except not many gym leaders you can see in anime or games for that matter to be 10 year old kids. That's more impressive and bigger accomplishment than becoming gym leader at mid or old age.Just like Gardenia, Iris, Ash, Brock, Forrest, Cilan, Chili, Cress, Lenora, Drayden, Marlon, Roxie, Burgh, Koga, Blaine, see how that works?
I don't think its unfair, because both girls follow different professions with contest battling rounds not being same as trainer battles. And you should definitely watch OS, because Misty won more than she lost during her run.It's pretty weak not to count May's Contest, even then I'm sure May entered a little more than Misty. Especially when you consider most of Misty's were loses and Rocket battles.
Likewise when this characters changed they didn't need to sacrifice their appeal and quirks which makes them enjoyable with May still being bubbly, sweet and optimistic. Or Misty who kept her flare, spunk and passionate sides with more mature spin being added to both characters.
Final outcome was positive for both, although admittedly way to get there was better showed with May getting more fleshing out and amount pf closure to her dreams.
p.s. Speaking of backstory, i have to to say that more rich backstory in Misty case was also one of reasons why i felt more sympathy toward character being given extra dimension to her. Whole past of having to grow up with three older sisters which belittled her and treated as runt staggering her confidence and causing revolt, providing insight in her past life and how she always got rupture toys and left overs or childhood fears she experienced such as panic fear from Gyarados was something to which many people could relate and feel sorry for character growing to like him.Its always welcome to lean more about someone origin and what caused him to become person he is today building up on its personality.
That's something i always felt we lacked with May.
I love Misty, she's my favorite female so obviously she's gonna win all these polls as far as i'm concerned :b
I do love May though, and honestly, it's very close between them. They both have very likable qualities. Misty was funny and sassy and May was sweet as dipsy for the most part. I loved Misty's dynamic when coupled with Ash and Brock and that was something that Hoenn didn't live up to. However, I loved May's contests and that the female finally had a predominant role in the show. I loved May's rivalries and her relationship with Max. I love them both for different reasons but Misty I love just that little bit more.
May also had better structure and a better organized ending. You can tell that Tomioka actually cared what was going on with May's character, (unlike Takeshi Shudo with the characters in Johto), so she had a much better structured arc and ending. And May was arguably the last female lead with a well characterized personality.
So much cherry picking ITT (in this thread).
Instead of comparing May at her *best* (Advanced/Battle/Challenge) to Misty at her *worst* (Johto), why not just compare them both at their best? (To most, Misty would be *Kanto/Orange, or before Togepi hatched*).
I'm aware of that, but it would be refreshing to at least see more people compare them at their *best*. I don't compare Misty in her best episode to May in a generally badly written episode, do I?