Thread: Favourite Series So Far?

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I agree with all this, but DP was dragged down by the most important aspect of all:

- Main character chemistry.

No matter how good some of the episodes are, I can't enjoy them if I don't feel like the main characters are enjoyable together.

Meh. I consider writing to be just as important as character chemistry. I can agree that there could have been improvement in that category, but then the same could probably be said for most sagas. I think the real problem is spending a lot of time on the Pokemon's development which, while is certainly a good thing, detracted from the human characters. I think trainer-Pokemon development is more important anyway since that's what the show is about but balance for sure would have been better.

I knew something was wrong with the DP trio as it was airing, but I didn't truly realize how bad the character interaction really was until Best Wishes started. I agree BW isn't as good as DP was in terms of writing, but the characters somehow make it more enjoyable.

Not for me. Maybe as a group they're more enjoyable but as individuals...I think there's a lot to be desired. Cilan is certainly a fun character due to his antics (and a breath of fresh air) and doesn't need much development because there isn't much to his plotline - not to say that some would be good - and what we've got of him has worked so far but Iris...I'm sure you're aware of how much things need to change regarding her character growth, and Trip makes Ash seem like he regressed as a trainer. As it is, they're rivalry is the worst developed one so far. I also think giving Iris and Cilan rivals helped their chemistry with other characters.

The lack of character growth has made the main characters more detrimental to me.

Parts of me also feel as if Dawn's interaction with every character aside from Ash and maybe Conway was extremely bland and boring. Something was just wrong.

I'm inclined to blame the number of rivals she got and the little screentime her rivals got. And of course Brock's lack of attention didn't help either.

Originally Posted by Trainer_Gabriel

Meh. I consider writing to be just as important as character chemistry. I can agree that there could have been improvement in that category, but then the same could probably be said for most sagas. I think the real problem is spending a lot of time on the Pokemon's development which, while is certainly a good thing, detracted from the human characters. I think trainer-Pokemon development is more important anyway since that's what the show is about but balance for sure would have been better.

I don't see why it can't go both ways. Ash, Dawn, and Brock almost felt like 3 strangers traveling together most of the time. Even the Ash/Brock friendship was handled badly that you would forget how long those two have known each other.

They got the chemistry right with the other 3 groups, I don't know why the DP trio was the only one that was mishandled. I honestly can't even explain what the DP trio dynamic was supposed to be, I know it was about Ash and Dawn supporting each other, but two people do not make a group. It made watching this trio so dull, their interactions were almost never funny and I can't think of many memorable moments the three shared together.

Not for me. Maybe as a group they're more enjoyable but as individuals...I think there's a lot to be desired. Cilan is certainly a fun character due to his antics (and a breath of fresh air) and doesn't need much development because there isn't much to his plotline - not to say that some would be good - and what we've got of him has worked so far but Iris...I'm sure you're aware of how much things need to change regarding her character growth, and Trip makes Ash seem like he regressed as a trainer. As it is, they're rivalry is the worst developed one so far. I also think giving Iris and Cilan rivals helped their chemistry with other characters.

Cilan and Iris are supporting/sidekick characters, they're not intended to get Dawn's level of screentime. For what their roles are, they're both being handled fine. At the beginning I did feel like Iris was being ignored, but the writers made up for that with the recent string of episodes.

Dawn on the other hand got better development, but her character interaction was just...bad. It also felt like a lot of the time Dawn's only personality was talking about her pokemon or her Contests, and her dialogue otherwise was drab. Her interactions with Ash were alright, but with Brock, all her rivals, etc. was awful. Dawn and Paul only interacted like twice throughout all of DP too.

I guess the problem was really just Dawn's personality. It felt like she was better suited for her own series, rather than being forced to interact with Ash and Brock. It seemed to me as if Misty, May and Iris' personalities were designed better for character interaction.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I don't see why it can't go both ways.

I never argued otherwise however.

They got the chemistry right with the other 3 groups, I don't know why the DP trio was the only one that was mishandled.

Sure the other groups may have been handled better overall, but when I said "the same could probably be said for most sagas", I meant that some of them could have been done even better. For instance, in AG Ash and Brock had at least a few battles together (but I otherwise see little difference in their chemistry compared to DP), Ash and Max had a brotherly relationship thing going on, Brock and Max were kind of the same along with the mentor-tutor deal, Ash and May seemed like good friends, May and Max were probably the closest two of the group due to how well they were treated as siblings, but can you point out anything memorable about May and Brock's relationship? The only thing that really comes to my mind is May dragging Brock to shopping malls with her and that was only early in the series and off-screen. They were a close group all around but I would say May and Brock's chemistry was the weak link in the group.

While the original trio had arguably the closest bond of them all, I don't think you'd disagree that in Johto they had about as little as the DP trio had, maybe even less. And by Battle Frontier, the AG group didn't feel as close as they did in Hoenn mainly due to the saga's rush job and being the wrap-up of the series.

Hence why I said sagas and not groups.

Cilan and Iris are supporting/sidekick characters, they're not intended to get Dawn's level of screentime.

I never said they're lacking in screentime, I said they're lacking in character development. As I said, Cilan has been handled well enough for what he's got going for him but Iris gets too much advancement without much development.

For what their roles are, they're both being handled fine.

Iris just needs to earn her development rather than having it handed to her, but otherwise I agree.

At the beginning I did feel like Iris was being ignored, but the writers made up for that with the recent string of episodes.

Again, she's not being ignored as much as she is sliding through her growth. Cilan is probably more ignored than she.

Dawn on the other hand got better development, but her character interaction was just...bad. It also felt like a lot of the time Dawn's only personality was talking about her pokemon or her Contests, and her dialogue otherwise was drab. Her interactions with Ash were alright, but with Brock, all her rivals, etc. was awful.

I can pretty much agree with all of this but at least you can say that what she lacked in one aspect, she made up for in another.

Though, I'm not following why you would call her dialogue "drab".

Dawn and Paul only interacted like twice throughout all of DP too.

Understandable considering Paul was Ash's rival and not hers and therefore had nothing to do with her plotline. That would be like pointing out the lack of chemistry between Ash or Brock with Zoey or Ursula despite how irrelevant that is.

The fact that Dawn interacted with Paul at all should almost be a plus for her.

I guess the problem was really just Dawn's personality. It felt like she was better suited for her own series, rather than being forced to interact with Ash and Brock. It seemed to me as if Misty, May and Iris' personalities were designed better for character interaction.

I guess I can agree, but...I don't see how Dawn's personality affects the writing. I think the writers could have made her feel closer to her friends with or without the personality she got.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

I don't see why it can't go both ways. Ash, Dawn, and Brock almost felt like 3 strangers traveling together most of the time. Even the Ash/Brock friendship was handled badly that you would forget how long those two have known each other.

They got the chemistry right with the other 3 groups, I don't know why the DP trio was the only one that was mishandled. I honestly can't even explain what the DP trio dynamic was supposed to be, I know it was about Ash and Dawn supporting each other, but two people do not make a group. It made watching this trio so dull, their interactions were almost never funny and I can't think of many memorable moments the three shared together.

I have to agree,one of reasons why i was disappointed with DP is because group didnt felt like family to me.In groups of two they had good interacting more or less whether it was Ash/Dawn,Ash/Brock etc but as trio they didnt had many memorable moments with interacting seeming forced.Ash and Dawn interacted very well supporting each other and helping about their strategies and training with emphasis being put on it.But poor Brock seemed a little bit left out of group dynamic with there lacking feeling of trio acting like cohesive and harmonized entity.

I was pleased with DP when it comes to treatment of character stories with anime plot being treated surprisingly well,but one of downpoints was lack of humor and good character interaction imo being one of reasons why Sinnoh isnt among my favorite series.

Originally Posted by Trainer_Gabriel

While the original trio had arguably the closest bond of them all, I don't think you'd disagree that in Johto they had about as little as the DP trio had, maybe even less. And by Battle Frontier, the AG group didn't feel as close as they did in Hoenn mainly due to the saga's rush job and being the wrap-up of the series.

I beg to differ,because to me original group had definitely more chemistry in Johto compared to DP.One of things i liked about original series was gradual development of friendship being one of things i appreciated.
What i liked about them in that region is that Ash,Brock and Misty seemed and interacted like group of friends who knew each other for a long time becoming more mature and tolerant toward their flaws.They had several memorable moments while giving that feel of different yet vivid atmosphere.

Some of examples which comes to my mind was when Ash and Misty were concerned about Brocks health in "Sick Daze"taking care of him,when Misty criticized and encouraged Brock to go after girl he likes in"Heartbreak of Brock"or when he was deceived by Ninetales illusion wanting to get him out of trans etc.Friendship between her and Ash was also strengthen and while she argued with him at times with rivalry being sparked(like when battling for Totodile,in Whirl Cup,and on some other occasions) she also became more supportive with teasing being done in more cynical instead of aggressive manner.
We can notice in "Gotta Catch Ya Later" when having to split how close bond between them existed.

As one might suspect, I voted Diamond & Pearl. DP had Paul, by far Ash's best rival in the series and a good and well-handled character in his own right. Some dropped balls here and there, but I can't expect total perfection. That actually applies to DP as a whole, too. Dawn's story was probably the low point of DP for me, but even then it wasn't necessarily bad. The shameless whoring out of Piplup and the mostly-bland rival set were the detrimental elements opposed to Dawn herself. Brock being largely ineffectual in the series was pardoned by me because of Croagunk. I am a total sadist and always loved seeing Brock getting a Poison Jab in his junk or up his ass; that alone made me accept Brock as part of the status quo this series. Of course, there were some inexcusably horrible things that happened in DP, such as Kenny existing beyond CotD status, Ursula appearing far too late into the series to get the win she deserved, the flat-out retarded way they sent Ambipom packing, Nando being the personification of a red herring, and some really bad fillers, but on the other hand there were also some excellent fillers and mini-arcs, and for me the pacing was more or less great up until a little past the halfway point in the series, and even beyond that point I never felt it was like, Johto-bad or anything.

The experience accumulated by the writing staff also really showed in this series, too. Almost every Sinnoh Gym Leader got at least four episodes to be featured in, allowing them to come off as genuinely enjoyable characters with their own unique personalities and weren't just glorified CotDs. They finally pulled off a villainous organization well in Team Galactic, we got to see ALL of Sinnoh's E4 and Cynthia got some decent screentime as well, even playing a part in Ash and Paul's rivalry. We even got to see all of the temporary tagalong trainers from the games. Within one series, they went from barely having an idea what the games are (based on how they adapted various elements from RSE) to making sure almost every element of DPP was integrated into the show. Hell, they even followed the four-move limit. I'm not sure if that originated in DP or AG, but while a lot of people think it's a retarded thing to integrate into the anime, I rather like how much better they are about adapting the games. As I recall, the series was also very good about showcasing the various cities in their own unique way as presented in the games, opposed to just making them generic cities and stripping them of the qualities that made them stand out, such as Fortree City in AG and Castelia City in BW.

And while Dawn's team's potential was hampered by Piplup's overload of screentime, Ash's teammates fared a lot better. Well, Buizel was a jobber for a good chunk of the series and Turtwig just went on a downward spiral the moment it evolved (which just proves that Ash sucks at using tanks unless their name is Snorlax). Plus towards the end there was probably a bit too much Infernape showcasing than what we needed, but all in all I can say throughout the span of the series, each of Ash's Pokemon got their time to shine at least once or twice, and it was nice seeing Pikachu taking a backseat and only coming in when appropriate. At the same time, it wasn't a total bitch and its power level seemed relatively consistent compared to what we're seeing in our current series. I wish the main rivals were a bit more balanced out that way, since Zoey was almost always seen with Glameow and her truly interesting Pokemon weren't seen until near the end of the series, and while Paul had a nice display of rotating Pokemon... he whored out Elekid/Electabuzz/Electivire waaaaaaay too much, and that particularly bothers me since A) we already had a purple-haired kid pimping out Electabuzz in Johto and Chronicles, and B) it's not even Paul's first Pokemon. Since Ash's Torterra was not very well represented, they could've made up for that with Paul's Torterra (that was shown to be awesome during the first full battle, plus earlier character development), but after the first full battle we literally never saw it again save for a short cameo during the League. That's something that will always bother me, but wait. I'm supposed to explain the things I love here, aren't I? Well, in spite of this stuff agitating me, at least showing the awesomeness of the neglected Pokemon now and then is better than not doing so at all.

On the Team Rocket end of things, this was their last hurrah as the Team Rocket we've known since the show began, and DP was especially good about keeping them from wrecking the flow of important plot-related episodes that had nothing to do with them. I rather liked how they took an interest in Chimchar and considered Paul to be even worse than they were. Jessie being shown as a competent Coordinator was truly a saving grace of Dawn's rival outset, though sadly Jessalina went out with a pretty pitiful bang. Later on in DP I noticed that James was being portrayed as presumably the most competent member of the team, seeing as he actually concocted some VERY decent plans and overall I think the joke was that he'd be more fitting running the team than Jessie (especially when he crossdressed as her to win a Contest and allegedly got a better reception than she'd ever gotten), but he's too much of a pushover to actually take the role he deserves. XD And I'd be remiss to not mention the random return of Jessiebelle, which was always awesome. Meowth seemed overall pretty shafted in DP, though he did have a meaningful heart-to-heart with Chimchar in one episode and was pretty awesome as a Contest Pokemon... so he did get some perks out of it. Plus, he gets the dubious honor of having the most fucked-up Boss Fantasy ever concocted in the entire series, and I think you all know which one I'm talking about.

While it's on my mind, DP did very well by having Ash and Dawn train consistently in most episodes. They had influences on each other's styles, which were utilized as meaningful plot elements rather than one-shot DEMs. Both had hard and well-earned wins as well as devastating losses, but to make it as far as they did in their respective competitions was totally justified because we saw them do the hard work that made their level of skill believable by the end. And outside of Paul, we also had Barry as an excellent rival. Conway was a great rival and character, though I think we all agree he should've been Dawn's rival instead because the guy's got no quarrel with Ash whatsoever (hell, before the League I don't think they exchanged a single line of dialog). Still, I'm pretty sure he was brought into the League because the writers enjoyed him, and who could blame them? I really did like how insightful they were about sticking with elements that worked in the series. Pokemon Hunter J was also a great character who amped up the "serious business" meter big time due to her occupation, and I'm pretty sure we were all in shock when we saw her get killed off... or at least, I believe she was killed off. When THIS series actually kills off a significant character, you know it's serious business.

And of course, cameos from past characters. Gary got to appear a couple of times, though he was painfully useless fodder for the Galactic finale. May, however, had a much better run and the competition that went with it was a wonderfully-executed arc. Getting to see Ash and May in costumes was a real treat and I'd say with certainty that May had a better cameo run than Misty did back in AG. One of the best things about DP is that the writing experience really shows in this series. They even essentially re-did certain Kanto episodes, such as the one where Jessie released Dustox and "Should Pikachu evolve NOW?" v2.0... both of which I think improved upon the original episodes they were based on in various ways, if not every way for the former.

And seeing the chart up there now, I'd say it's no surprise at all that DP's got so many votes. To me, it was the absolute peak of the series.

I have like, three favorite seasons.

First of all, I'm starting to like the Original Season. Well, it's because I'm slowly watching Kanto from CN On Demand. I like the jokes and all the wording on the signs instead of that made-up language.

Next up, DP. It was a pretty good season. Ash had great Pokemon, Dawn had many rivals, and Team Galactic was beast.

Lastly, BW is another favorite. I love the animation and the fact that TRio don't appear as often.

Aside from the lackluster character interaction and horrid pacing, DP did have many good stories that BW isn't following up on.

BW has better character interaction but worse stories, if that makes any sense.

I bet if Johto was separated from the original series on this poll, I'd be able to rationalize my poll vote better.

^You could always just vote the Original Series and specify that you only voted that option for Kanto and OI if those really are your favorite sagas, instead of just not voting at all. Or maybe you have a second choice.

Originally Posted by Trainer_Gabriel

^You could always just vote the Original Series and specify that you only voted that option for Kanto and OI if those really are your favorite sagas, instead of just not voting at all. Or maybe you have a second choice.

Well Orange Islands was still technically Generation 1, in the same manner that Battle Frontier was still an extension of Hoenn. When I think of the original series, I do not think of Ash's Johto team or anything that happened in the Johto saga. That was the second generation of Pokemon, not the original that everyone remembers.

I have to say that to this day, I still honestly do like Kanto and Orange Islands despite their flaws. If Johto was written the way they were I could have said the same for it. Too bad it wasn't.

As for DP, in all honesty it had a ton of potential to be even better but blew it all by the end. The Sinnoh league was a huge disappointment and it made the whole saga feel like it led us in the wrong direction. The Contests were dropped from the anime entirely making me feel as if Dawn's arc will be pretty much forgotten. You could tell by the time we got to the Grand Festival, nobody really gave a damn anymore. Also Dawn's girliness got old somewhere around the halfway point of DP. It makes me feel as if the whole co-star thing was an experiment the writers abandoned.

My favourite is diamond and Pearl so I voted for it. I loved it because I enjoyed watching Ash, brock and dawn and how they worked in a different way to prior groups.

Brock was actually my favourite in DP because I enjoyed hunting for the hints of his concern for his friends aswell as hints of his potential doctor change of direction during the series. He's more subtle which makes it more fun to watch over and over to see what I missed.XP

It's hard to describe the group because my enjoyment of them was more of a feeling I got from them. For me it was a warm and fuzzy feeling which I relate to family and friends. They worked very similar and thus I can't see them any other way.

I enjoyed seeing how they all cared for one another in their own unique ways and I got really attached to the characters in the long run. Due to this I find the length of DP perfect for my tastes.=)

Loved the story and how things built up to otherthings as the series progressed. I really enjoyed the contests in DP since that's what got me into contests aswell as the Ash and paul story and the battles ect. Then of course brock's hints to becoming a doctor that was scattered throughout the series.

It's not perfect of course but I enjoyed it alot anyway and it's definately my most favourite. I'm not sure about BW currently. I gave up on the japanese version of BW long ago after watching some of it. I'm giving it a go in english when it starts airing in Australia but I'm just not sure if I'll watch it to the end or not. Planning on picking up another franchise personally and watching that mainly with BW as more of a very casual thing.

Kanto is my second favourite series and I'm getting a growing interest in Johto as of late aswell. Though I'll see what I think when I rewatch Johto again.^-^;;;;;;;;

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

Well Orange Islands was still technically Generation 1, in the same manner that Battle Frontier was still an extension of Hoenn. When I think of the original series, I do not think of Ash's Johto team or anything that happened in the Johto saga. That was the second generation of Pokemon, not the original that everyone remembers.

I have to say that to this day, I still honestly do like Kanto and Orange Islands despite their flaws. If Johto was written the way they were I could have said the same for it. Too bad it wasn't.

While that is your personal view of what the original series means/refers to, the Johto saga was part of the original Pocket Monsters series, despite being a different generation. Hoenn and the Kanto Battle Frontier were a part of Pocket Monsters Advanced Generation and all of Sinnoh was under the title Pocket Monsters Diamond and Pearl. That's the reason Johto is often paired with the original series. Like both Trainer_Gabriel and I have mentioned, you could just vote for the original series and just say you prefer the Kanto and Orange Island saga over the Johto saga. There are weak parts to the DP series that I mentioned and that I wish were written differently, but I still voted for the DP series.

Originally Posted by Gliscor'd

As for DP, in all honesty it had a ton of potential to be even better but blew it all by the end. The Sinnoh league was a huge disappointment and it made the whole saga feel like it led us in the wrong direction. The Contests were dropped from the anime entirely making me feel as if Dawn's arc will be pretty much forgotten. You could tell by the time we got to the Grand Festival, nobody really gave a damn anymore. Also Dawn's girliness got old somewhere around the halfway point of DP. It makes me feel as if the whole co-star thing was an experiment the writers abandoned.

I'm not sure about that. While the Sinnoh League had a bit of rushed/weak start and I would have liked to see a bit more of Ash's reserved Pokemon, or at least Quilava, I was pretty content with how the league turned out. I even enjoyed Ash's battle with Tobias for the most part. With Dawn, it wasn't so much her girliness that bothered me or got old. I just didn't care for her personality after the Wallace Cup. The Grand Festival was really rushed, which I think really weakened what really could have been a good tournament considering the amount of attention Dawn got. While there were things that I wish I could have changed about the Sinnoh League and quite a few things about the Grand Festival, like actually showing Jessie's battles so she could at least go out in a blaze of glory like she honestly deserved, I don't think that the outcome of the league and Grand Festival seriously weaken the quality of the series for me at least. Pokemon has always been more about the journey rather than the destination and for the most part, I enjoyed the journey through Sinnoh due to the writing for the Pokemon, their trainers, character interactions, Paul, etc. I wish that different things happened in every series, but that doesn't really have significant effect on my enjoyment of each one of them.

Boy, way to make an unrelated reply, Gliscor'd. Did you even get my point?

I was only suggesting that you could vote the Original Series option, despite having to vote for Johto in the process, and then commenting that you voted that option only for Kanto and Orange Islands. But if you really hate Johto so much that you would refuse to vote that option because of that last saga, then I guess that's that.

Would be intersting to know what your favorite series (not saga, series) is overall though.

Originally Posted by Trainer_Gabriel

I was only suggesting that you could vote the Original Series option, despite having to vote for Johto in the process, and then commenting that you voted that option only for Kanto and Orange Islands. But if you really hate Johto so much that you would refuse to vote that option because of that last saga, then I guess that's that.

But if I did that, my statistical data would be reflected inaccurately on a poll choice. I assume other people voting for "the original series" mean all 3 older sagas, yet if I choose that option, I am only voting for 2 out of the 3.

I really don't get why people don't separate Johto anyway despite it being part of the same series. Even as kids we all knew it was an entirely separate arc. Should I be forced to cast a vote on a poll where my options are not properly reflected in said poll?

Would be intersting to know what your favorite series (not saga, series) is overall though.

If you mean overall, I honestly don't know. There are some things I liked and disliked about every saga. DP probably had the strongest story, but as said, many other things in that arc I felt were handled poorly compared to previous sagas.

Is it just me or did DP also lack humor compared to all the other sagas? Yeah Croagunk was funny and Barry/Conway were amusing, but on an episode-to-episode basis, DP rarely made me laugh or crack a smile.

Time to drop the discussion of Johto being a separate option in the poll rather then being labelled under the Original Series. It's off topic and irrelevant.

I voted for Advance Generation because it had the least votes of any series so far, and it was actually really good. It just seems like it's being overshadowed by nostalgic PM and recent DP.

That said, Diamond/Pearl feels like the culmination of everything that came before. Ash had his closest battle with his toughest rival, he battled and defeated two legendary Pokémon in a row, and was actually pretty important to the Galactic Plot (at least moreso than the plots of Rocket, Aqua, and Magma, whom he just kinda walked in on). Add to that that Best Wishes feels like a reboot in all but a handful of areas, and it feels like Diamond/Pearl was a sort of 'end' for the growth we'd seen started in Kanto and Johto, matured in Hoenn and the Battle Frontier, and finally bore fruit in the Lily of the Valley conference. Add in all of the references to past events (the Thunderstone, Misty's Lure, May's appearance and speaking about her Rivals, Gary all over the place) and Diamond/Pearl has a clear sense of 'Ultimate-ness" that the game creators seems to be trying to create for the games.

Granted, BW is still new, so it might surprise us still.