CONTEST: Which is better: Johto or BW? - Page 3

View Poll Results: Which is the better saga?

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  • Johto

    41 58.57%
  • Best Wishes

    20 28.57%
  • Neither of them.

    9 12.86%
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Thread: Which is better: Johto or BW?

  1. #31
    Ook ook! Eek eek! MonkeyBoy210's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    While both are flawed saga's, Johto earns my vote for numerous reasons. While I agree that Johto had too many fillers and Ash's Johto team was underdeveloped, there's just so much reason why I like Johto over Unova. Here's just a list of the reasons why I prefer Johto over the train wreck that is Unova

    1. The cast: The original group of Ash, Brock, and Misty will always be a favorite of mine, mainly because of the chemistry that there was between them. While BW had some interesting chemistry, Iris to me was very unlikable and her continuous "You're such a kid!" comment was just annoying and unlike how Ash and Misty would argue, this was ignored by Ash mostly. Misty and Brock, while you didn't get as much focus as you deserved, you will always be the best traveling companions for Ash.
    2. The episodes: While there were several filler episodes, I found them a lot more enjoyable than the ones BW had, mostly because I did like the humor in them a lot more. Plus the COtD's weren't as bad as the ones in BW, most of which were either bland or had stupid gimmicks and quirks.
    3. Team Rocket: While they have gone back to their old ways and have even began using their original motto again, they were a lot more enjoyable in Johto thanks to the slapstick humor and jokes. They're far too serious in BW and their scenes where they're conniving/spying on the twerps aren't as fun in BW.
    4. The gym battles: Ash had made a big improvement since Kanto and in Johto, his gym battles were more fun to watch and he actually got badges by beating the gym leader. There was a little more strategy and less OHKO's in Johto than in Unova's boring battles.
    5. His team: While Ash's Johto team was underdeveloped and got shafted often for his Kanto team, I liked it a lot more than the expansive team he had in BW.
    6. THE LEAGUE!!!: The league was hands down far better than BW's horrendous league. Not only was it longer, but Ash got 5 on screen battles(Salvatore, Macy, Jackson, Gary, and Harrison) that were actually very fun to watch, including the long awaited 6 on 6 with Gary(Unlike in BW, Ash only got a 1 on 1 with his main rival Trip) It was also one of the few leagues where Ash didn't get screwed over, losing to someone who was just slightly better rather than some dumbass who should've been disqualified. While it didn't need Ash's Kanto Pokemon, it was much better than the train wreck of the Vertress Conference
    7. The voice acting: Just plain and simple, I prefer 4kid's voice acting rather than the current one.
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  2. #32
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Taken together, the rivalries in Unova were better. Gary was only in 3 episodes and Casey was a failure of a rival. While Trip was awful, the others were actually decently entertaining. Really if you exclude the leagues and just look at the episodes, there's not much difference.
    I don't really see the point in excluding the Leagues, especially when that is a big part of both arcs. The rivals in Unova, aside from Trip at least, had more presence and a couple were entertaining characters, but that doesn't seem like much of an advantage when none of them were good rivals.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    In terms of Ash's team, again, both were handled poorly so you can't say much. Ash's Johto team wasn't developed properly, but his Unova team isn't much better.
    True, but I'd still give Ash's Johto team an edge for at least having more personality than most of his Unova Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Johto has way too many boring fillers, and while Best Wishes has some duds, at least the entire series is shorter. It took only 2 years to reach the Unova league, it was the second shortest main arc of the series.
    I actually liked a lot of the Johto filler episodes. Not all of them were great, but most of them were pretty decent at least. The series is shorter than the Johto arc, but I don't see that as a good thing necessarily. They rushed through the Unova region with most of the Gym battles being lackluster, full of cheap evolutions at the last minute and going through everything so fast made getting to the Unova League feel underwhelming. The general qualities of the battles didn't help either and because of that faster pace, there's an arc simply having Ash and his friends going around islands on their way to Kanto. I would have much rather seen those episodes being used to extend the journey through Unova, have Team Plasma appear much earlier and have the Unova League start actually near the end of the series. Having a faster pace isn't necessarily better than a slow pace in my opinion, especially when I think that a show tends to miss a lot of opportunities with the storyline and characters if they go along too fast, which I think has happened with BW.

  3. #33
    I love Ash. Ashfangirl22's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    UGH! This isn't even a contest for me, Johto by far!! It may have had tons of fillers, at least they were funny at times, with Best Wishes even without Team Rocket they didn't do much for me, boring. Lets not forget how they'd keep switching Team Rocket from being serious to comical back and fourth, now maybe in DA we can leave them at thatXD Iris, don't even get me started on her or training skills or poor Axew just sitting in her hair and not even close to the goal he wants. The only good thing about this series was Dento, hope he stays speaking of which.
    Ash fan. Multi Ash shipper =]

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Um, let's see, BW without doubt.

    It may have its share of flaws, but it did so many things better.

    - Actual plot; no dropping GS Ball and all that crap.
    - Actual rivals for Ash, Iris and Cilan
    - Iris and Cilan doing way more stuff than Misty and Brock
    - Iris actually having a story, unlike Misty.
    - Cilan actually doing something, unlike Brock.
    - The Pokémon in Ash, Iris and Cilan's trio have some really amazing personalities.

    And Johto just had no real plot and way too many fillers; Misty and Brock did nothing in comparison to Iris and Cilan. So yeah, it's not even a contest.

  5. #35
    Will Rip Titles 4 Money speedingbulletbill's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    - Iris and Cilan doing way more stuff than Misty and Brock
    Are you only including BW1&2? Because Cilan kinda just stands in the background these days. And even before that, while he may have done more than Brock...most of them just revolved around his "hobbies" and did nothing to further him, either as a Connoisseur or a character.

    - Iris actually having a story, unlike Misty.
    Misty has a story, it's just not executed exactly the same way as Iris's.

    - Cilan actually doing something, unlike Brock.
    *2 posts above*

    - The Pokémon in Ash, Iris and Cilan's trio have some really amazing personalities.
    Bayleef, Totodile, Psyduck, Crobat (many will disagree), Poliwhirl/toed...

    And Johto just had no real plot and way too many fillers; Misty and Brock did nothing in comparison to Iris and Cilan. So yeah, it's not even a contest.
    Johto did have a plot, and the fillers were at least good. What about Sinnoh with its awful pacing? Yes, it had less filler, but the pacing still sucked. Miniarcs were too drawn out, gaps between important events were too large, etc...

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi View Post
    Are you only including BW1&2? Because Cilan kinda just stands in the background these days. And even before that, while he may have done more than Brock...most of them just revolved around his "hobbies" and did nothing to further him, either as a Connoisseur or a character.
    That is true, sadly, however - he's not in the background, at least. He's more dynamic than Brock.

    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi View Post
    Misty has a story, it's just not executed exactly the same way as Iris's.
    While it is true that every character has a story, Misty had nothing significant for her. The only thing I can think of for her is the Whirl Cup - she should have got more stuff. With Iris we got her a rival, her being more tolerant around Ice types and admitting they're not all that bad, also a tournament victory, Iris/Dragonite development during Junior Cup, the whole Drayden business which eventually led to Iris being offered to become a gym leader. And not only that, Clair is confirmed to appear in Decolora which will most definitely impact Iris' story.

    Misty definitely got much less. I mean, she received more development in her AG cameo with her suddenly controlling over a freaking Gyarados and the Togepi/Togetic departure. She was also interesting in her interactions with Max.

    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi View Post
    Bayleef, Totodile, Psyduck, Crobat (many will disagree), Poliwhirl/toed...
    Hmm, well I can disagree on Crobat. BW team just appeals to me more, I guess. :I

    Quote Originally Posted by stickerstaryoshi View Post
    Johto did have a plot, and the fillers were at least good. What about Sinnoh with its awful pacing? Yes, it had less filler, but the pacing still sucked. Miniarcs were too drawn out, gaps between important events were too large, etc...
    The Sunyshore gap is awful, I can agree with that, but despite that - Sinnoh saga was much better than Johto and BW together. It had some real character development both for humans and Pokémon, great battles and gripping villain plot that was carefully planned from the very beginning.

  7. #37
    pokemon fan 132 pokemon fan 132's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Im not sure why is Johto and BW always classified in this fandom as bottom of barrel, worst of all etc when they aren't inherently bad by its nature having both flaws and qualities just like any other saga had. In fact i prefer both of them over DP and BF but ok ill play along.

    For me its no contest really. Its Johto because it had better sense of continuity by mile compared to BW. We had Ash continuing with his growth carrying over skills and pokemon at same strength in Johto becoming more collected and calculated as trainer using strategy and head when battling along with being less naive and stubborn in idiotic way.

    Misty which continued to grow as trainer and character working hard for every pokemon and accomplishment she got changing gradually. Which was evidenced through becoming more independent and confident breaking free from sister influence and helping others over same issues/Sakura comes to mind), learned how to better understand water types like Marill, Staryu or Poliwhirl which helped her in getting over Gyarados fear after leaving cast, along with becoming more open and patient as person valuing her friends a lot more regardless of getting on her nerves at times. Or Brock who kept learning new things about breeding enriching his acquisition etc.

    There was present build on friendship between traveling companions feeling like closer group of friends at that point whether it were tantrums between Ash and Misty with their friendship being on more endearing note containing lot of teasing and various pranks while sometimes getting into clash being familiar with their flaws. Many comedy scenes Brock provided searching for advices from Misty and Ash how to approach girls or great deal of care his friends expressed when he was sick or injured by TR.
    Etc.

    There were numerous references to Kanto or OI whether it was through return of old characters like Aya, Ritchie, Duplica, Todd etc strengthening series history and what was established before acting like actual sequel. Backed with wonderful arcs such as two arcs about TR organization trying to conquer Lugia and Gyarados with Mewtwo special being released around that time going in correlation with increased Giovanni organization activity. Whirl Islands which felt life mini saga/journey set in bigger region giving lot of character development to Misty expanding on water master career through with Whirl Cup being amazing. 5 episode arc about Clair, dragon dent and rampaging Dragonite wanting to tarnish everything and everyone with everyone having to work as team etc.

    Wrapping up everything with fantastic league giving us scrimmage between Ash and Gary and full, packed with charge battle we have been waiting for years. Plenty of memorable battles against others like Macy, Harrison or Jackson with Ash making bog step forward compared to Kanto. As opposite to Unova league which was absolute disaster.

    Regardless of fillers, demolished plots like GS ball and wasted opportunities in Johto you could had feeling how main protagonist and his friends moved somewhere, growing forward with things not going backwards or one step forward, two steps back like its case with Unova.

    Along with cast chemistry being more pleasant and fun to watch having two way interacting between companions, genuine spark to their emotions and admiration, support they expressed to each other. Granted there was less fighting, but that was compensated through joking, cynical biting remarks and moments of annoyance with Ash not being indifferent reciprocating back having two, three way interacting with friendship maturing between them. And i challenge anyone to try to confute strong bond and close comradeship which existed between cast there and amount of support and compassion they showed, especially in departing episode.
    You could tell how they established close bond between themselves contained sharp and witty humor, lot of banter and tension as well understanding between themselves standing up for each other with friendship with time becoming only stronger carrying over adventure aspect and concept of friendship in more natural, genuinely enjoyable manner than any other cast afterwards had.


    In comparison BW series tried to be many things, but failed in conveying changes and attempt to recreate spirit of previous series in credible, innate manner.
    For instance they tried pokemon rotation which fundamentally was interesting idea but lacked proper execution with writers giving Ash too many new pokemon to work with which backfired negatively on rest of team having instead of few well developed pokemon, bunch of underdeveloped and shafted pokemon making their capture pointless in first place.

    They tried to go with TR becoming serious and competent becoming venerable members of organization, but failed to transfer their change of role in believable manner witnessing drastic change in characterization over night with no real explanation, background or foreshadowing. After all if you want to have character go through big transformation you should prior to that give audience at least some insight in whole thing to realize what influenced characters and prompted them to change behavior.

    Not to mention failure in staying sequential to JJM characterization having them serious for first half, goofy at times just to be again more serious, while lately leaning more toward their comic side again. Which is inconsistent and takes away from its appeal.

    Along with having many on paper excellent ideas, such as giving rivals to every member in main cast, introducing Don George tournaments to have way so that everyone could be active and evolve but it all stayed on just good idea ending as wasted potential sadly.

    For instance while sidekicks are receiving enough focus, that focus is not used in most productive manner imo. Cilan barely developed not making much of progress in his connoisseur career at all, and vague note on which writers left whole goal doesn't help things either.

    Iris development comes in rushed and contrived manner, not changing enough as person. Main purpose behind her journey Axew is barely trained stagnating, flaws doesn't affect her much and ever since Dragonite capture whose issues were resolved in rushed manner there doesn't seem to be any moving forward as far as dragon master career goes.

    Most rivals while bringing extra flavor to cast are treated as jokes, comic relief not affecting development of characters nor serving as motivation, someone which push protagonists forward.
    Burgundy lost basically every battle not being treated seriously, rivalry between Iris and Langley doesn't lead nowhere, Trip was just inferior version of Paul and Gary while Bianca is biggest disappointment to me so far. I expected that we are finally going to get competent female rival for Ash, but we got ditzy blonde which didn't even battled Ash in end(reminds me of Casey).

    Lack of continuity with references to past and previous characters being nonexistent was big minus in my book too, pretending like Ash previous development and history never happened ruining storyline and credibility of series. as well inconsistency of character development coming sporadically not being written in coherent and homogenous manner.

    Although ill give them how with BW2 sagas this was fixed up to degree with Dawn and Cynthia return, Charizard joining cast, Butterfree apparently reappearing, previous friends appearing through flashbacks etc as well use of pokemon from previous generations. So on this i can say writers redeemed a bit for initial mistake.

    And there were definitely highlights from this generation with Bw cast still having homogenous, amusing interaction with chemistry between Ash, Iris and Cilan containing lot of life and energy in themselves. Whether we are talking about Cilan hot blooded interest for numerous professions , irrational fear from unknown trying to explain everything through science and admiration he holds for Ash. Iris snark demeanor, wild and hyperactive attitude, Or Ash regardless of dumb down having that innocent charm of naive kid which is good as heart trying to give best possible care to pokemon, while being brazen and reckless at times.

    Or Don George tournaments which still contained enjoyable battles, good interactions and chance to see plenty of characters measure their strength in battle field.

    While N arc was probably best part of Unova series so far giving us mysterious and unique character having rich backstory, deep motives wanting to change world for better having his own guideline of what is most ideal solution to achieve harmony of living between pokemon and humans despite grand finale being kinda anti climactic.

    Problem is that while having interesting premise behind themselves most ideas writers came up with fall flat on surface executing things in rushed, forcing manner
    Sometimes i got impression like writers themselves weren't sure what they wanted to do in Unova with inconsistent and poorly constructed storyline, inadequate distribution of focus and writers eagerness to try out new things without thinking ahead and carefully constructing elements in story before releasing it in production decreasing appeal of series themselves for me.

    More than Johto in reality did.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja View Post
    Um, let's see, BW without doubt.

    It may have its share of flaws, but it did so many things better.

    - Actual plot; no dropping GS Ball and all that crap.
    I actually never had much of a problem with that. I was surprised when they didn't mention the GS Ball at the end of Johto and it was a really poor choice to drop the plot, especially the reason behind it, but I never got that upset about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    - Actual rivals for Ash, Iris and Cilan
    Ash had Gary, even though he rarely appeared. Iris and Cilan's rivals were more entertaining characters rather than good rivals for me. Besides that, their rivalries went pretty much nowhere in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    - Iris and Cilan doing way more stuff than Misty and Brock
    True, but I don't think that's quite hard to achieve.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    - Iris actually having a story, unlike Misty.
    She may have more of a storyline going for her, but it's been poorly handled in my opinion. At least they didn't go out of their way to make Misty look stronger than she actually was during her run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    - Cilan actually doing something, unlike Brock.
    Again, that isn't hard to accomplish. Besides that, most of Cilan's more active presence have to do with his various hobbies. That and his more energetic personality helps him to stand out more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    - The Pokémon in Ash, Iris and Cilan's trio have some really amazing personalities.
    I disagree. I think that almost all of Ash's Johto Pokemon alone have more entertaining personalities than all of their Unova Pokemon, but that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    And Johto just had no real plot and way too many fillers; Misty and Brock did nothing in comparison to Iris and Cilan. So yeah, it's not even a contest.
    Johto did have a plot. It was about Ash and his friends traveling through Johto and adapting as much from the games' storyline as they could. That's pretty much the case for every series or saga. There were a lot of filler episodes, but I don't think that a lot of them were that bad. Most of them were pretty entertaining or at least decent for me. Misty and Brock didn't do as much. Although, I don't consider Iris better because she is more active, but that has more to do with the writing around her character and her annoying personality. Cilan is more active than Brock and unlike with Iris, I actually like him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsutarja
    The Sunyshore gap is awful, I can agree with that, but despite that - Sinnoh saga was much better than Johto and BW together. It had some real character development both for humans and Pokémon, great battles and gripping villain plot that was carefully planned from the very beginning.
    I think I'm one of the few people who didn't mind that gap at all. It isn't like nothing happened during that Sunyshore gap. We had Paul vs. Brandon, Ash's first full battle with Paul, the Team Galactic climax, Dawn capturing new Pokemon, Ash capturing Gible, Dawn entering her last couple of Contests, Ash training his Pokemon and Dawn entering the Grand Festival. DP is the only series thus far that could pull off a long gap between Gym battles like that because there were other things going on in the series besides Ash's Gym badge quest. Not every episode in that gap was important, but they used their time a lot more effectively than I think they did with both Johto and BW. I agree that DP is better than Johto and BW though.

  9. #39
    Registered User HealthMaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    I voted for BW because of cute Pokemon starters.
    I am Montel Williams' HealthMaster.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    BW, definitely. Johto was okay, but the only saga I liked less was Hoenn (and I generally dislike anything Hoenn because almost nothing about Hoenn or gen 3 has appealed to me).

    Iris is a much more entertaining character than Misty, imo. I'm probably one of the few who finds her "You're such a little kid" catchphrase to be funny and cute. She also has more of a story than Misty (the Village of Dragons, meeting and befriending Excadrill, her failing to adapt to school life, the Drayden thing, etc.). She also has the awesomest hair ever.

    Cilan is my favorite character EVER from this show now. I love him so much! He's funny, cute, always entertaining, and then that scene from Scare in the Litwick Mansion where he runs away screaming. XD

    I found most of the episodes to be much more entertaining too. And Ash's Pokemon are all awesome, especially Oshawott lol.

    The only problem I had was Ash's step backward since Sinnoh. Just...wtf. I could understand the first battle with Trip because of Zekrom hindering Pikachu the way it had, but besides that...yeah. :/

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    I pick Johto even though it has alot of fillers. BW is a very uninteresting series to watch and all the characters(especially Iris and cilan) they are pretty bad at acting. "You are a kid" catchphrase is even more annoying.
    P0KEM0N likes this.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    If the Best Wishes Series will end up in the way that I think, or that many other fan think, it will be my favorite one.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    well, for some reason i'm a real fan of Johto in the anime, the game, and the mangas. Unova is fine, but the BW series got me a little disappointed...

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    What I do not like about of both sagas is having 'turning a loser into a winner' episodes more than usual. I never liked Paul. But he was right about something. Not every Pokemon can be a winner. I'm so sick of this.

    Still, Johto fillers were far better than BW fillers.

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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Jouto, hands down. While I have numerous problems with the whole arc (the fillers, Takeshi Shudo being dropped from position as chief writer, the "start" of the simplification of Satoshi's personality, dropped plot threads, etc.), in the end, the best of Jouto easily trumps the best of Best Wishes. The Jouto league was the better league, Satoshi was easily a better trainer and character than BW Satoshi, Lizardon's returns are actually significant, the Jouto movies were better than the Best Wishes movies, the TV Special uses the same Mewtwo we know unlike BW's supposed joke of a 16th movie, and Jouto actually acknowledged Satoshi's past accomplishments within the original series (Top 16 of the Pokemon League and Champion of the Orange League being somewhat recognized is better than forgetting absolutely everything).

    Satoshi's Lizardon vs. Shigeru's Kamex > Episode N. That's right, I said it. That was my favorite thing about Best Wishes, and even that fell short.

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