CONTEST: Which is better: Johto or BW? - Page 2

View Poll Results: Which is the better saga?

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  • Johto

    40 57.97%
  • Best Wishes

    20 28.99%
  • Neither of them.

    9 13.04%
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Thread: Which is better: Johto or BW?

  1. #16
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    I didn't care for Ash's Johto team back then because they came across as weak replacesments for Ash's Kanto team.

    Back then Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard were viewed as staples of Ash's team, and to go from those 3 to what seemed like Pokemon who had worse personalities and were weaker battlers was a disappointment. Charizard's departure is what actually kickstarted the initial hatred of the Johto saga. I know a lot of people who originally stopped watching the anime because they used to say things like, "How could Ash get rid of his awesome Charizard?" and so forth.

    Obviously this doesn't matter now, but back in the time Johto was airing it was a huge disappointment. Ash's Unova team is sad though, no evolutions for the starters and too many pokemon.

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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I didn't care for Ash's Johto team back then because they came across as weak replacesments for Ash's Kanto team.

    Back then Bulbasaur/Squirtle/Charizard were viewed as staples of Ash's team, and to go from those 3 to what seemed like Pokemon who had worse personalities and were weaker battlers was a disappointment. Charizard's departure is what actually kickstarted the initial hatred of the Johto saga. I know a lot of people who originally stopped watching the anime because they used to say things like, "How could Ash get rid of his awesome Charizard?" and so forth.
    I honestly thought that his Johto Pokemon had better personalities than his Kanto Pokemon. Aside from Charizard, they didn't have much personality to me and they weren't really that impressive in battle. Totodile was unfortunately weak, but Bayleef and Cyndaquil, while not powerhouses, were all around solid battlers and considering how the Gym battles were generally better, I don't see how that was a disappointment. People probably saw the Kanto starters as staples of Ash's team simply because they were Kanto starters, but they would have had to leave to make room for other Pokemon they wanted to promote. I also still don't think that Charizard's departure was bad. I actually really liked that episode. It was too bad that Charizard left when it just started to listen not too long beforehand, but I didn't dislike Johto because of that. If only Bulbasaur had been written off earlier instead of taking up space, Phanpy could have actually gotten a Gym battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Obviously this doesn't matter now, but back in the time Johto was airing it was a huge disappointment. Ash's Unova team is sad though, no evolutions for the starters and too many pokemon.
    There is Pignite, but I am disappointed that neither Snivy or Oshawott evolved, especially when there shouldn't be a reason for Snivy to not want to evolve. Ash having at least a Dewott would have been nice, if only to have another evolved Water Pokemon. Having too many Pokemon was definitely a problem, especially when most of the Pokemon that seem to have decent strength are his reserve Unova Pokemon.
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  3. #18
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by pokemonsquared View Post
    The worst filers of Johto were better than the supposed best episodes of BW.
    You can't be serious. When Johto fillers were bad, they were REALLY bad. And Best Wishes does have some great and memorable episodes.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    I don't particularly care for either but Johto had a much better league and I liked the eps Ash's Kanto Pokemon were featured for.

    Now in terms of the main cast:

    - Johto Ash and BW Ash are almost exactly the same. They're both a step above Kanto but below Hoenn/Sinnoh.
    What?! I'm sorry but how was Johto Ash similar to BW Ash? Johto Ash just came from winning a league and started getting better in his battles and everything else. In BW, he had just came from defeating two legendaries, had his Pikachu power down as well as his brain mass with most of his rivals dummer than he is. I would never compare Whitney's gym to the horrible mess of Elesa's or compare Skyla's attitude to any of the Johto gymleaders. There is a lot of differences of the Ashs. If anything, comparing Kanto/IS Ash to BW is more better.

    - Johto Misty and Iris....meh. No real preference here either way. Nothing much to say.
    There was a lot of build up for Iris's development towards to end. Like with the gym leader offer to the Claire thing. With Misty, we didn't even think she was ever going to leave without really getting anything done. So I wouldn't compare them either. More like Kanto Misty and Iris is more similar.

    Johto Brock and Cilan...both are good.
    Brock did nothing in Johto. Cilan did a whole lot in early BW and has participated in a lot of activates. Again, I wouldn't compare BW to Johto at all. But as far as a series, I actually liked Johto more than BW. Mainly due to Ash, his rivals and what the writers turned him into.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    I meant to click neither of them but accidentally hit Best Wishes.

    To be honest... I think Johto is stronger when it comes to the characterizations of Ash, Misty, and Brock, though the filler does drag on and many times Ash fails to capture obvious wild pokemon that would've been interesting to see on his team, and most of his gym battles he makes less than intelligent decisions.

    On the other hand Ash makes better battle decisions in Best Wishes. Though once again it seems Pikachu gets reduced in strength upon entering a new region, and Team Rocket gets some well deserved character development, and we get better over-arching storylines in Best Wishes to Johto, though the do move slower than Johto's storylines. The best thing is that Ash has started catching more than six pokemon a generation again. A trend that unfortunately that started with Johto.

    Like I said... they both have good and bad elements.
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by GWrando View Post
    I meant to click neither of them but accidentally hit Best Wishes.

    To be honest... I think Johto is stronger when it comes to the characterizations of Ash, Misty, and Brock, though the filler does drag on and many times Ash fails to capture obvious wild pokemon that would've been interesting to see on his team, and most of his gym battles he makes less than intelligent decisions.

    On the other hand Ash makes better battle decisions in Best Wishes. Though once again it seems Pikachu gets reduced in strength upon entering a new region, and Team Rocket gets some well deserved character development, and we get better over-arching storylines in Best Wishes to Johto, though the do move slower than Johto's storylines. The best thing is that Ash has started catching more than six pokemon a generation again. A trend that unfortunately that started with Johto.

    Like I said... they both have good and bad elements.
    Considering his decisions in his matches against Elesa, Roxie and Cameron, I don't see how he has made better battle decisions in BW. He made some bad calls in Johto too, but he actually improved compared to his Gym matches in Kanto and the Orange Islands and his rank in the Johto League reflects that as well. The Gym battles and the Unvoa League don't give the impression that he's become a better battler. It's more like a step backwards rather than forward. I actually prefer Ash capturing only five or six Pokemon in a generation. At least that way, there's a chance for some believable progress/development of his Pokemon during the course of the series. Ash having too many Pokemon prevents that from happening with the majority of his Unova team.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Mew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by GWrando View Post
    I meant to click neither of them but accidentally hit Best Wishes.

    To be honest... I think Johto is stronger when it comes to the characterizations of Ash, Misty, and Brock, though the filler does drag on and many times Ash fails to capture obvious wild pokemon that would've been interesting to see on his team, and most of his gym battles he makes less than intelligent decisions.

    On the other hand Ash makes better battle decisions in Best Wishes. Though once again it seems Pikachu gets reduced in strength upon entering a new region, and Team Rocket gets some well deserved character development, and we get better over-arching storylines in Best Wishes to Johto, though the do move slower than Johto's storylines. The best thing is that Ash has started catching more than six pokemon a generation again. A trend that unfortunately that started with Johto.

    Like I said... they both have good and bad elements.
    Considering his decisions in his matches against Elesa, Roxie and Cameron, I don't see how he has made better battle decisions in BW. He made some bad calls in Johto too, but he actually improved compared to his Gym matches in Kanto and the Orange Islands and his rank in the Johto League reflects that as well. The Gym battles and the Unvoa League don't give the impression that he's become a better battler. It's more like a step backwards rather than forward. I actually prefer Ash capturing only five or six Pokemon in a generation. At least that way, there's a chance for some believable progress/development of his Pokemon during the course of the series. Ash having too many Pokemon prevents that from happening with the majority of his Unova team.
    The only real better choice he could've made against Roxy was Krokorok... which he didn't have on him because the six on three was brought on spur of the moment and he was most likely planning on using Palpitoad, Pignite, and Boldore in the match. The fact that he didn't have Oshawott or Snivy on him proves that he made a decision to change pokemon before he went to face Roxy.

    As for against Elesa... He used intelligent pokemon choices... Palpitoad was immune to Electricity, Snivy has a resistance to Electricity, and Pikachu is his main pokemon and has a resistance to electric attacks. They actually were the best choices amongst his pokemon. The only possible other choice was Swadloon.

    Finally against Cameron, Ash didn't know all of what Cameron was using until he got to the battle so he chose diverse pokemon. Point in fact the only Pokémon Ash knew Cameron had were Riolu, Ferrothorn, and Samurott.... and knowing that he chose Snivy, Pignite, and Unfeazant all of whom were strong against the three Pokémon he knew Cameron had. Beyond that he chose Pokemon in order to create a well rounded team.

    I fail to see the lack of logic in his choices in Unova...

    Meanwhile back in Johto he was cycling through both his Johto and Kanto Pokémon and on numerous occasions chose not to use pokemon that would've been better choices... Yes he did improve from Kanto... but being since about half his badges were pity badges back then...

    List of Ash's Pity Badges - Brock (Ash left the battle halfway through and Brock still gave him a badge), Misty (Battle was interrupted, Ash got a badge), Sabrina (Do I really need to mention why this one is a pity badge), Erika (THE PLACE WAS ON FIRE), Viridian (Ash faces Team Rocket... yeah...)

    He only won three of his badges in my opinion... and he had to re-challenge each of them after losing or the battle being interrupted or something...

    He won almost everything on luck and didn't actually start becoming a decent trainer until around the Indigo League, and even then luck still played a big part...

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  8. #23
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    I went with Johto. I can see a lot of similarities between the two but Johto has the edge because I simply value Misty and Brock way more than Iris and Cilan. In terms of Pokemon and gyms, they are about the same quality.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    I’m going to go with Johto, since for one thing, it was actually good. The BW series has just be one disappointment after another.

    Seeing the humor and wonderful group dynamics of the original Ash, Misty, and Brock is better than the boring and almost forced interactions of BW Ash, Iris, and Cilan any day. Even though there were a lot of fillers, at least they were entertaining, imo. BW’s fillers are pretty much all extremely boring to me. I also prefer Ash’s Johto team to his Unova team; and at the same time prefer Misty and Brock’s Pokemon over Iris and Cilan’s. They might not have had the best development, they were much more interesting to watch and they weren’t all either boring or annoying. Misty and Brock were also more fun to watch actually maturing and working on their goals. Ash also was able to make progress in his journey and improved from his Kanto journey, unlike his horrible regression in Unova.

    I also find Iris and Cilan incredibly annoying . Iris calling Ash a “little kid” has annoyed me since day one. It only got worse once she started doing it for other people. I honestly don’t even know what Cilan is doing. He’s just transforming into a “insert profession that relates to this episode” connoisseur each time he gets. His detective episodes are also pretty lame to me. I don’t understand how he’s even practicing to be a Pokemon connoisseur. Likewise, I don’t know what it means to become a dragon master, but I don’t see how Iris is trying to accomplish this seeing as all she does is let Axew run around messing things up all the time instead of working with him. Overall, I really just dislike Iris and Cilan in comparison to Misty and Brock.

    So Johto gets my vote over Unova anyday.

  10. #25
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Ash is the same character in both series, so there's no difference. The reason Unova Ash was jarring at first was because his maturity from the end of DP was dropped. But if you compare Johto Ash to BW Ash, he's exactly the same.

    Neither Johto Misty nor Iris were handled that well as they should have been, and Brock and Cilan are practically on the same level of entertainment value. If we were comparing DP Brock to Cilan though then Cilan takes the cake. So there's no real difference between these group dynamics.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by GWrando View Post
    The only real better choice he could've made against Roxy was Krokorok... which he didn't have on him because the six on three was brought on spur of the moment and he was most likely planning on using Palpitoad, Pignite, and Boldore in the match. The fact that he didn't have Oshawott or Snivy on him proves that he made a decision to change pokemon before he went to face Roxy.
    He still looked like an incredibly weak trainer compared to Roxie when it took six of his Pokemon to defeat three of her Pokemon and even then he was barely able to beat her.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWrando
    As for against Elesa... He used intelligent pokemon choices... Palpitoad was immune to Electricity, Snivy has a resistance to Electricity, and Pikachu is his main pokemon and has a resistance to electric attacks. They actually were the best choices amongst his pokemon. The only possible other choice was Swadloon.
    He was planning on relying on Palpitoad for the entire match, he had to run out of the battle field to get Snivy and he wasn't going to use Pikachu until it got upset to the point where it shocked him. The choices made sense, but it was the way he went about it, mainly with only relying on Palpitoad only, didn't make him look like a good trainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWrando
    Finally against Cameron, Ash didn't know all of what Cameron was using until he got to the battle so he chose diverse pokemon. Point in fact the only Pokémon Ash knew Cameron had were Riolu, Ferrothorn, and Samurott.... and knowing that he chose Snivy, Pignite, and Unfeazant all of whom were strong against the three Pokémon he knew Cameron had. Beyond that he chose Pokemon in order to create a well rounded team.

    I fail to see the lack of logic in his choices in Unova...
    He kept Pignitie out against Samurott, used Oshawott against Hydreigon and Snivy vs. Riolu wasn't a good choice in my opinion, especially when he didn't take advantage of Snivy's Attract, which would have been difficult for Riolu to overcome if Cameron hadn't experienced that before.

    Quote Originally Posted by GWrando
    Meanwhile back in Johto he was cycling through both his Johto and Kanto Pokémon and on numerous occasions chose not to use pokemon that would've been better choices... Yes he did improve from Kanto... but being since about half his badges were pity badges back then...

    List of Ash's Pity Badges - Brock (Ash left the battle halfway through and Brock still gave him a badge), Misty (Battle was interrupted, Ash got a badge), Sabrina (Do I really need to mention why this one is a pity badge), Erika (THE PLACE WAS ON FIRE), Viridian (Ash faces Team Rocket... yeah...)

    He only won three of his badges in my opinion... and he had to re-challenge each of them after losing or the battle being interrupted or something...

    He won almost everything on luck and didn't actually start becoming a decent trainer until around the Indigo League, and even then luck still played a big part...
    I thought he became more of a decent trainer around the Orange Islands since the Indigo League was still primarily full of lucky victories. While Ash may have not made the best choices in all of his Johto Gym battles, he still looked like he was making some decent progression and getting to the Top 8 of the Johto League shows that he was a much better trainer than he was in the Indigo League. Ash's Unova Gym battles don't really give off that kind of impression to me and if anything, getting to the Top 8 in the Unova League shows that he has regressed in his skills, rather than improve like he has been doing with previous series and sagas.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Ash is the same character in both series, so there's no difference. The reason Unova Ash was jarring at first was because his maturity from the end of DP was dropped. But if you compare Johto Ash to BW Ash, he's exactly the same.
    I still don't see it. The lack of the maturity Ash had during DP did make his characterization in Unova jarring, but Ash didn't act the same in Johto. He didn't rely completely on one Pokemon, to the point where he didn't have another on him besides Pikachu, like in his Nimbasa City Gym battle, needed to use six Pokemon in order to defeat three Pokemon of a Gym leader or lose to a trainer who made terrible mistakes in the League during Johto. He wasn't perfect by any means, but he was a better trainer than he was in Kanto and the Orange Islands. The bit of maturity we saw in AG was being setup in at least the later parts of Johto and despite relying on mostly his older Pokemon, getting to the Top 8 in the Johto League was actually a sign of progress for his skills as a trainer. Getting to the Top 8 in the Unova League, on the other hand, shows that his skills haven't progressed at all. I honestly don't see how they're exactly the same, especially when Ash didn't make mistakes nearly as big as he has in some of his battles in Unova.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty
    Neither Johto Misty nor Iris were handled that well as they should have been, and Brock and Cilan are practically on the same level of entertainment value. If we were comparing DP Brock to Cilan though then Cilan takes the cake. So there's no real difference between these group dynamics.
    I think I'd prefer the group dynamics in Johto, if only because I can actually believe Ash is friends with Misty and Brock more so than his friendship with Iris. He does come off as good friends with Cilan though.
    Last edited by Hidden Mew; 28th May 2013 at 12:39 PM.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    I don't have the most valid view point since I've only really seen the more eventful Johto episodes, but Johto still easily wins for me. Brock and Misty were easily better than Cilan and Iris. Ash was far more competent in Johto and was never particularly stupid as far as I can remember. Also the league was far superior, he defeated his childhood rival in a 6 v 6 battle as opposed to their two main pokemon fighting. And in Johto he lost in a tense battle against Harrison who was very respectable and clearly skilled. In Unova he lost to a clumsy child who didn't bring 6 pokemon, and spent half the battle trying to express how much fun he was having. Johto for more had way more memorable episodes, even some fillers were really entertaining (Hour of the Houndour and Wired for Battle). Characters in Johto just generally seemed more intelligent and respectable in general.

    However in Unova' defense it was better because: Better TR (Less frequent and more serious) and he actually evolved his pokemon.

  13. #28
    Registered User The Fighting Misty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Ignoring how bad the Unova league was, I'd give Best Wishes the slight nod over Johto.

    Best Wishes had better pacing, tournaments, some interesting rivals as opposed to only Gary, and Plasma and Giovanni episodes. Johto's high point was its league, which was literally written the same way most of AG was written because that's when the writing style changed.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fighting Misty View Post
    Ignoring how bad the Unova league was, I'd give Best Wishes the slight nod over Johto.

    Best Wishes had better pacing, tournaments, some interesting rivals as opposed to only Gary, and Plasma and Giovanni episodes. Johto's high point was its league, which was literally written the same way most of AG was written because that's when the writing style changed.
    I'll agree that BW had better pacing compared to Johto, although I think that the pacing in BW was too fast for my tastes, but I don't think that the tournaments were good at all. The idea of using smaller tournament arcs was a good idea and honestly should have been used in Johto to break up some of the filler so that Ash and his friends could battle a bit more. The problem came down to the execution and aside from the Clubsplosion arc, all of the tournaments, including the Unova League, were just terrible. Even the second tournament still suffered from similar problems with rushed battles, cheap victories and repetitive format, but at least the outcome made sense and there were more decent battles. I would have preferred filler episodes over those tournaments since at least some of the filler episodes in BW can be fun for me.

    As far as rivals go, the only ones in BW that I like are Georgia and Burgundy. They're not really good rivals, but they're entertaining characters and Georgia is one of the few characters calling Iris out on her flaws. All of the other rivals fell flat for me, especially Trip, and anime Bianca was so immensely disappointing for me when I absolutely loved her in the video games. Aside from Trip, they did have more presence than Gary did in Johto, but since I don't like most of them, I'm not sure if that's any better than Gary rarely appearing throughout the arc, especially when he didn't have that much presence in Kanto either. The Giovanni episodes had the same problems as most of the other Team Rocket two-parters. There was a lot of buildup with little to no payoff. I haven't seen all of the Plasma episodes yet, but those have been pretty good so far.

    The Johto League was good, but I also liked its Gym battles. They weren't all gems, but they were still better than what we had seen in the last two arcs and way better than the Unova Gym battles. They actually gave the impression that Ash was making progress and becoming a better trainer. Most of his Unova Gym battles, as well as the Unova League in general, did the opposite of that for me. I'd still give Johto more of an edge over BW.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Which is better: Johto or BW?

    Taken together, the rivalries in Unova were better. Gary was only in 3 episodes and Casey was a failure of a rival. While Trip was awful, the others were actually decently entertaining. Really if you exclude the leagues and just look at the episodes, there's not much difference.

    In terms of Ash's team, again, both were handled poorly so you can't say much. Ash's Johto team wasn't developed properly, but his Unova team isn't much better.

    Johto has way too many boring fillers, and while Best Wishes has some duds, at least the entire series is shorter. It took only 2 years to reach the Unova league, it was the second shortest main arc of the series.

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