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  1. #106
    I won't bite... much. SharKing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    I fail to see how Gen. IV "screwed over" Sceptile. Sure, it lost Leaf Blade and ThunderPunch to the Physical side, but it got more than enough to compensate, and not just through moves. The thing got competitively famous for things like its speedy Choice Specs Leaf Storm.

    Besides, it can viably use its former signature move (Leaf Blade) through a Swords Dance set.
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  2. #107
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharKing View Post
    I fail to see how Gen. IV "screwed over" Sceptile. Sure, it lost Leaf Blade and ThunderPunch to the Physical side, but it got more than enough to compensate, and not just through moves. The thing got competitively famous for things like its speedy Choice Specs Leaf Storm.

    Besides, it can viably use its former signature move (Leaf Blade) through a Swords Dance set.
    Leaf Storm is completely outclassed by Serpeior. Sceptile does more on the first Leaf Storm and is faster, but Serpeior is still fast, bulkier, and doesn't need to switch out fearing -2 Special Attack.

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    That initial power is what Sceptile's all about. Besides having a significantly better movepool. Serperior is not going to be outclassing Sceptile. They will both be UU and great Pokemon there serving similar yet different functions.

  4. #109
    Fuck You, Stealth Rock sqwat500's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Blazekein is uber now? Dayumn leave for a few days and come back to this. I dont think he'll stay uber for too long, however it is still very threatining.
    ^Thanks Blazeaking Ex!

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Blaziken's ban came as a result of the Rain. At the beginning, it was allowed wih no restrictions and was thus, not an environment suited to Blaziken. Then Smogon placed the Swift Swim + Drizzle Ban effectilvely nerfing rain. This made Drought more common and allowed Blaziken to thrive and go on to dominate.

  6. #111
    I won't bite... much. SharKing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyboy0337 View Post
    Leaf Storm is completely outclassed by Serpeior. Sceptile does more on the first Leaf Storm and is faster, but Serpeior is still fast, bulkier, and doesn't need to switch out fearing -2 Special Attack.
    Serperior didn't exist in Gen. IV, which is where Sceptile best used that compensation I talked about. And as RJW said, Sceptile's pretty much all about immediate power, at least with Leaf Storm. And it has the better movepool. Rock Slide, ThunderPunch, Acrobatics, Focus Blast, and Dragon Pulse all lord over... Aerial Ace and Hidden Power.
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  7. #112
    Formerly GTT Grass Type Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by SharKing View Post
    I fail to see how Gen. IV "screwed over" Sceptile. Sure, it lost Leaf Blade and ThunderPunch to the Physical side, but it got more than enough to compensate, and not just through moves. The thing got competitively famous for things like its speedy Choice Specs Leaf Storm.

    Besides, it can viably use its former signature move (Leaf Blade) through a Swords Dance set.
    In Gen III, a good portion of Sceptile's movepool used his excellent Sp. Attack stat. This includes (but is not limited to) moves such as Thunderpunch, Dragon Claw and Leaf Blade.

    With the generational shift, most of those moves (including his best coverage moves) were made physical. Problem? He has a mediocre physical stat and a lot of competition for a role as physical sweeper. Why use SD Sceptile when you can use DD Salamence/Dragonite/Tyranitar/Gyarados, Breloom, Agiligross or Scizor in OU and Venusaur (in general,) Arcanine, Torterra, Leafeon and others in UU?

    His special movepool became composed of Grass attack (Leaf Storm/Energy Ball,) Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power. Pretty one-note and predictable, which makes it pretty easy to counter.

    Gen V brought in the hurt again by forcing players to choose between Dragon Pulse and Unburden. Most will choose the latter for its utility, leaving Sceptile with only three worthwhile Special moves.

    The best thing it can hope to do now is MixTile, but with the evergrowing metagame, it gets a lot of competition from other Pokemon, both old and new.

    Venusaur is still excellent as ever, especially in UU. Serperior is the better user of Leaf Storm, Roserade is still awesome, SD variants are outclassed by Breloom even moreso now that he gets Technician, Celebi/Shaymin[-S]/Virizion all pretty clearly outclass him, Torterra is still the better physical sweeper, Liligant can carve a niche for herself with Quiver Dance (which all the Starters would kill for,) Tangrowth/Leafeon and several other Grass types all have various offensive niches which match or surpass whatever Sceptile can bring to the table.

    Then you have the non-Grassers that far outclass Sceptile as a Pokemon. Salamence/Garchomp/Dragonite/Hydreigon/Tyranitar/Metagross, Haxorous, Darmanitan, the monkey, Gyarados, even Feraligatr, Scizor, Lucario, Heatran and co. can all do what Sceptile does at something but better.

    Throw in the surge of Fire types, again both old and new, that have been rising lately as a result of Stealth Rock's crippling and Generation V introduction (Pokemon like the monkey, Heatran, Houndoom, Arcanine and Ninetales are all joined by new threats like Chandelure, Darmanitan and Volcanora) and all Grass types have a pretty difficult time keeping up. Sceptile is no exception.

    I'm not saying Sceptile is useless or that it doesn't bring anything to the table. Excedingly fast, frighteningly strong Leaf Storms, the now buffed up Giga Drains, Hidden Power of choice running off a 105 Sp. Atk, mix options with Earthquake/Rock Slide/Thunderpunch (Gen IV variants only)/Leaf Blade and the like are all things Sceptile appreciates, but losing half of his coverage moves in the generation shift (and make no mistake, giving them to his Attack stat is the same as losing them completely unless you're using mix sets) gave it a stat/movepool dissonance that it hasn't been fully able to recover from yet. So in that context, Gen IV did screw Sceptile over. That it managed to still be a force in the Gen IV UU metagame with half his coverage moves effectively removed is just a testament to this Pokemon's prowess, that it could overcome its shortcomings, but it did (and still does) have major problems.
    Last edited by Grass Type Warrior; 4th April 2011 at 02:50 PM.
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  8. #113
    Registered User Dave B's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Blaziken in Ubers? WWWWHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ahem. Anyway, nice thread.

    How is Blaziken broken, Smogon? As amazing as it is in OU, it certainly wasn't unbeatable. It could still be smashed by Aqua Jets, Mach Punches and strong priority moves in general, which seem more common than ever. The prevalence of weather not named sun hurt, what with powered up Aqua Jet from Azumarill and Carracosta. The omnipresent Excadrill could kill it if it got in there quickly enough. And all of that without chronic four moveslot syndrome. Not to mention Reuniclus with either sub or trick room.

    Amazingly powerful: yes. The Excadrill of Sun teams: quite probably. Viable in Ubers: most certainly.

    But broken in standard: I seriously think not. Roll on the return of the chicken.

    Back to relevency. I don't see Sceptile succeeding in OU, or even doing that well in UU what with Venusaur running around being better in almost every way. Factor in improved fire types and power creep and I fear he'll really suffer.
    Blaziken is the king.

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  9. #114
    Prayers to Oak Creek Angad's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy View Post
    In Gen III, a good portion of Sceptile's movepool used his excellent Sp. Attack stat. This includes (but is not limited to) moves such as Thunderpunch, Dragon Claw and Leaf Blade.

    With the generational shift, most of those moves (including his best coverage moves) were made physical. Problem? He has a mediocre physical stat and a lot of competition for a role as physical sweeper. Why use SD Sceptile when you can use DD Salamence/Dragonite/Tyranitar/Gyarados, Breloom, Agiligross or Scizor in OU and Venusaur (in general,) Arcanine, Torterra, Leafeon and others in UU?

    His special movepool became composed of Grass attack (Leaf Storm/Energy Ball,) Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse and Hidden Power. Pretty one-note and predictable, which makes it pretty easy to counter.
    That gives it mostly the same coverage, you know. The only difference is lack of Thunder Punch, which could be made up for by Hidden Power, the movepool thing isn't the main issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy View Post
    Gen V brought in the hurt again by forcing players to choose between Dragon Pulse and Unburden. Most will choose the latter for its utility, leaving Sceptile with only three worthwhile Special moves.
    Many won't choose unburden because the other two have some, arguable, better ability. Many won't choose unburden for D. Pulse too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy View Post
    The best thing it can hope to do now is MixTile, but with the evergrowing metagame, it gets a lot of competition from other Pokemon, both old and new.

    Venusaur is still excellent as ever, especially in UU. Serperior is the better user of Leaf Storm, Roserade is still awesome, SD variants are outclassed by Breloom even moreso now that he gets Technician, Celebi/Shaymin[-S]/Virizion all pretty clearly outclass him, Torterra is still the better physical sweeper, Liligant can carve a niche for herself with Quiver Dance (which all the Starters would kill for,) Tangrowth/Leafeon and several other Grass types all have various offensive niches which match or surpass whatever Sceptile can bring to the table.
    This is all true and the main reason Sceptile has little usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy View Post
    Then you have the non-Grassers that far outclass Sceptile as a Pokemon. Salamence/Garchomp/Dragonite/Hydreigon/Tyranitar/Metagross, Haxorous, Darmanitan, the monkey, Gyarados, even Feraligatr, Scizor, Lucario, Heatran and co. can all do what Sceptile does at something but better.

    Throw in the surge of Fire types, again both old and new, that have been rising lately as a result of Stealth Rock's crippling and Generation V introduction (Pokemon like the monkey, Heatran, Houndoom, Arcanine and Ninetales are all joined by new threats like Chandelure, Darmanitan and Volcanora) and all Grass types have a pretty difficult time keeping up. Sceptile is no exception.
    Also very true, but Stealth Rock wasn't really crippled, outside of Magic Bounce, it just lost priority over other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Envoy View Post
    I'm not saying Sceptile is useless or that it doesn't bring anything to the table. Excedingly fast, frighteningly strong Leaf Storms, the now buffed up Giga Drains, Hidden Power of choice running off a 105 Sp. Atk, mix options with Earthquake/Rock Slide/Thunderpunch (Gen IV variants only)/Leaf Blade and the like are all things Sceptile appreciates, but losing half of his coverage moves in the generation shift (and make no mistake, giving them to his Attack stat is the same as losing them completely unless you're using mix sets) gave it a stat/movepool dissonance that it hasn't been fully able to recover from yet. So in that context, Gen IV did screw Sceptile over. That it managed to still be a force in the Gen IV UU metagame with half his coverage moves effectively removed is just a testament to this Pokemon's prowess, that it could overcome its shortcomings, but it did (and still does) have major problems.
    Good Point, but the real reason why Sceptile was nerfed, because all of the other pokemon around it were getting better and better, and Sceptile's Niches stopped being Niches.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqwat500 View Post
    Blazekein is uber now? Dayumn leave for a few days and come back to this. I dont think he'll stay uber for too long, however it is still very threatining.
    He really should be in ubers, this coming from a former Blaziken Abuser, it wasn't really checked by much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave B View Post
    Blaziken in Ubers? WWWWHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ahem. Anyway, nice thread.

    How is Blaziken broken, Smogon? As amazing as it is in OU, it certainly wasn't unbeatable. It could still be smashed by Aqua Jets, Mach Punches and strong priority moves in general, which seem more common than ever. The prevalence of weather not named sun hurt, what with powered up Aqua Jet from Azumarill and Carracosta. The omnipresent Excadrill could kill it if it got in there quickly enough. And all of that without chronic four moveslot syndrome. Not to mention Reuniclus with either sub or trick room.

    But broken in standard: I seriously think not. Roll on the return of the chicken.
    The combo of sun and Blaziken is what made it get banned, Aqua Jet does jackshit in the sun, and you could always switch out. And Excadrill can't do anything if you have a balloon seeing as you only need two Speed Boosts to beat it in the sand. Reuniclus can't freely switch in, considering it can't take a +2 Flare Blitz if it has gotten any prior damage. The ban was justified.

    Much love to Zurr

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave B View Post
    How is Blaziken broken, Smogon? As amazing as it is in OU, it certainly wasn't unbeatable. It could still be smashed by Aqua Jets, Mach Punches and strong priority moves in general, which seem more common than ever.
    If using priority moves is the only way to check something, then it is probably already broken based on that fact alone. Pokemon need either very reliable checks or hard counters to avoid being banned from a tier.

  11. #116
    now's the time to shine coolking503's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave B View Post
    Blaziken in Ubers? WWWWHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ahem. Anyway, nice thread.

    How is Blaziken broken, Smogon? As amazing as it is in OU, it certainly wasn't unbeatable. It could still be smashed by Aqua Jets, Mach Punches and strong priority moves in general, which seem more common than ever. The prevalence of weather not named sun hurt, what with powered up Aqua Jet from Azumarill and Carracosta. The omnipresent Excadrill could kill it if it got in there quickly enough. And all of that without chronic four moveslot syndrome. Not to mention Reuniclus with either sub or trick room.

    Amazingly powerful: yes. The Excadrill of Sun teams: quite probably. Viable in Ubers: most certainly.

    But broken in standard: I seriously think not. Roll on the return of the chicken.
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103132
    listen to it. You asked, Smogon gave ;P

    You seem to forget that you can always switch out. Thats a problem for pokemon like Mence, who get +5 boosts and are very reluctant to switch out against a weavile, since it took 5 turns. Blaziken, who usually runs protect, can come in on something that cant touch it, use SD, then use protect to get to +2 speed +2 attack. If they have azumaril or conkelldurr, I find out and on the second time I switch in I can just HJK right away and wear it down. Not to mention to have a safe switch in something else must be KO'd.

    Excadrill can KO it at +2, yes, but what if it uses protect? Aqua jet has a base 30? Power in the sun. Just listen to the podcast. It was borderline Uber, but im not so surprised to see it go and it definetely seemed like it should.
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  12. #117
    Is Not A Moderator TerraTF's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    I've one hit Blaziken using a +/-0 Exca's EQ multiple times. It can be done. If Speed Boost Blaze ran Mach Punch then it would be unbeatable.
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  13. #118
    Prayers to Oak Creek Angad's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    I ran Balloon on my Blaziken, Excadrill can't do crap.

    Much love to Zurr

  14. #119
    Is Not A Moderator TerraTF's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Good thing Exca can break that Balloon. Mine runs Rock Slide.
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  15. #120
    Prayers to Oak Creek Angad's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    I'll put it in two hypothetical scenarios, Blaziken switches in on Excadrill as it attempts to set up, and survives the Rock Slide and HJK's it to death, or Excadrill switches on Blaziken as it sets up, and Blaze survives the Rock Slide, while being faster on the next turn.

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