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  1. #76
    now's the time to shine coolking503's Avatar
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Without Shadow Tag, wobbu is useless, since anything can switch out. It will be in the bottom of NU.
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Thread Bump: If Snorlax finally leaving OU due to the rise in Fighting Types and Raw Attack power houses?

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    It's not seen very often, but there are no Smogon server statistics, let alone a formalized OU tier.

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  4. #79
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Snorlax is to powerfull for the lower tiers. I believe it'll start in UU, move up to BL for most of the metagame, however, it'll play some minutes in OU by the end of this Gen.
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    It depends how the tiers will look in the end, but Pokemon like Snorlax and Blissey will at least be BL...
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Eh, Snorlax of its new moves like Wild Charge (Snorlax can easily handle that little recoil) and Chip Away (though Body Slam is always good, and better in most cases...), and that's about all I know.

    It doesn't really gain much this gen, but it is still much too powerful for UU. BL is a good guess.
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    I think people aren't really taking into account the massive power creep we saw this gen. Sure, Snorlax is too strong of Gen IV's UU, but now in Gen V we have Doryuzu, Roobushin, Ononukuso, Hihidaruma, Shandera, and other super heavy hitters, not to mention Garchomp and Mence. They can't ban one of them to Uber without eventually banning them all, making OU much stronger and lowering usage of many older Pokemon, causing many that were once too strong for UU to drop down, raising the average power level of UU.

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    The same generation Selfdestruct becomes an egg move, it's spoiled by the nerf. I'm still mad that it was nerfed simply on account of doubles/triples.

    Also the power creep is somewhat checked by the fact that a large portion of the >125 Atk crowd have middling defenses or speed...I have a feeling that some of the same UU (and OU) staples will stay in the tier. The bar might not be raised THAT high.
    Last edited by F-22; 3rd March 2011 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor Juniper View Post
    Also the power creep is somewhat checked by the fact that a large portion of the >125 Atk crowd have middling defenses or speed...I have a feeling that some of the same UU (and OU) staples will stay in the tier. The bar might not be raised THAT high.
    We can't just assume that the threshold of being broken in any given teir will stay the same though, because it won't in any of them. True, it may not change that much, but look and Chomp and Mence, they're allowed back in OU for now, and I'm not expecting a ban on them this gen.
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakarei View Post
    We can't just assume that the threshold of being broken in any given teir will stay the same though, because it won't in any of them. True, it may not change that much, but look and Chomp and Mence, they're allowed back in OU for now, and I'm not expecting a ban on them this gen.
    Chomp is probally going back to Ubers, seeing how all teams are going to be T-tar or Hippowdon/Excadrill/Garchomp. Garchomp is the only one that can continue it's sweep with it's weather gone. You would have to send your Toed/Tales in, then sacrifice a team mate to safely get a counter in with your weather.

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    I'm fairly sure that Salamence will remain OU, but I think that Garchomp may be moved back into Ubers at some point in this generation. Garchomp is still a very powerful sweeper that is difficult to check due to Sand Veil hax and its good defensive stats.

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Now that there is a precedent in banning ability + weather combos, I'm not sure if the Sand Veil reasoning will fly anymore, especially since Garchomp has an alternative available. However, I do hope that Garchomp is banned in the future, but I think the fate of the Latis will be addressed first.

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Latios is going back to Ubers due to it's raw power, but Latias might hang around OU a bit, and then see if it fits OU or Ubers at that point.

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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    This is the question that's been on my mind for a while now, perhaps unsurprisingly if you know anything at all about me, what tier will the Starters fit in this Generation?

    Okay, we have the obvious:

    Blaziken-OU
    the monkey-probably BL and up.

    What about everyone else though? Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Meganium, Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Sceptile, Swampert, Torterra, Empoleon, Serperior, Emboar and Samurott?

    Venusaur was a top UU in Gen IV but a few things have changed (for and against him) this time around. DroughtTales and Chlorophyll have both been great blessings (though he misses out on Power Whip with Chlorophyll) as have been the boosts Growth and Petal Dance have recieved. On the other hand, there has been a very noticeable power creep from the last Gen and I fear Venusaur will not be able to perform in OU without the sun (which would make him 100% dependent on DroughtTales to be at all effective.) Will his old tricks (versatility, Sleep Powder, Power Whip, etc) be enough to keep him out of UU if you strip away his sunlight? Or will he not be able to match up and end up an NU Pokemon with some uses on weather teams?

    Charizard has had Solar Power and no Stealth-Rock-as-a-TM to work with, but SR is still a force to watch out for and some of this Gen's best Pokemon have access to it (ie: Ferrothorn,) not to mention Gen IV Pokemon still have access to the move. There's also the massive dwindling of his HP with moves like Belly Drum, abilities like SP and hazards like SR. Charizard may not have enough staying power.

    Blastoise has mostly stayed the same, save for the access to Rain Dish, which makes him better under the rain. She works well with Scald too, but every bulky water and their mother (including the almost universally superior Milotic) has access to that move. Will she still have what it takes to stick around in UU or will she be relegated to NU now? I still postulate that if she ever got Slack Off, she'd be a very powerful force in UU and perhaps even OU.

    Meganium, much like Blastoise, has remained stagnant. The problem is that she was already an underwhelming Pokemon who got a useless DW ability (she's already got Aromatherapy) and other Pokemon outperform her (Sawsbuck also got Aromatherapy along with Herbivore [I refuse to call it Sap Sipper] and then there's the Evo stone making other walls much better.) This thing needs Wish and Baton Pass, stat. Can she scrape off a UU tiering this time around?

    What about Typhlosion? The only thing she had going for her last gen was Eruption and with the introduction of more powerful Fire types this time around (Chandelure, for example,) she seems to be even more overshadowed.

    Feraligatr is still inferior to Gyarados but now he has Encourage, which could give him an edge over it. Will it be enough to get him to OU? Ban him to BL? Make him a top UU? Where does his fate lie?

    Sceptile got a great ability...that he really didn't need because he already has fantastic speed. Whatever though, he ain't complaining about being even faster than before. The problem comes with his stat/movepool dissonance. His excellent physical movepool is held back by his middling Attack stat and his good special attack stat is mitigated by the lack of coverage his special movepool provides. MixTile seems to be the only thing he can do well and even there he has competition there from other Pokemon.

    Swampert is still an excellent Pokemon, but the power creep, the Selfdestruct/Explosion nerf combined with the mediocre DW ability, as well as the rise of other bulky waters such as Jellicent hold him back this time around. Is he still strong enough for OU? Torrent versions at least have access to Stealth Rock (through Gen IV) so that should be taken into account too.

    Torterra got a useless DW ability, he got competition from other Grass types and Ground types and he still has to compete for a spot against the dragons (all of which share his only crippling typing weakness.) However, his typing is still unique and he still has great coverage and he still does get STAB Earthquake. Not much has changed for Torterra. Will he carve a niche out for himself in UU again? Or will the power creep relegate him to NU territory?

    Empoleon is still an excellent special attacker, but with all the new walls, old threats getting a boost and new sweepers out there, can she still hold onto her spot in OU?

    Serperior has a similar problem to Meganium. Her movepool sucks and others can do almost everything she can do but better. She mercifully got a great DW ability (which Meganium didn't) as well as a niche role as a fast, durable subseeder, but outside of these, there really isn't much she can do.

    Emboar is outclassed by Blaziken and the monkey. There's no arguing that. However, he does have a massive Attack stat, lots of great physical moves and a DW ability catered to his hit-hard-get-recoil battle style (which also explains his ridiculously high HP compared to his meh defenses.) Can he keep up with UU or will that be too much for him? Will he be stuck in NU like his non-Fire/Fighting bretheren Starters Charizard and Typhlosion seem destined to be in?

    Samurott is a great Starter for in-game. Good offensive stats and not terrible speed. However he is so outclassed in almost everything he can do by some other Water type, its difficult to find a niche for him. Where will he find a place to belong? UU? NU? What's going to become of the samurai Water starter?

    I know this is an insanely long post, but hopefully there's enough material here to strike up good discussion, so I'm keeping it at this length. What do you guys think will become of the starters this generation?
    Last edited by Grass Type Warrior; 21st March 2011 at 05:17 PM.
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  15. #90
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    Default Re: What tier will they be in?

    Venusaur will remain top-tier UU. It is still great without Chlorophyll (is it legal with Power Whip?) It has (imo) the best stat distribution for a starter outside of Blaziken/Ape, which allows it to be as versatile as it is. With Growth, it can now also be a monster mixed sweeper. Of course, its typing also gives it an edge over the other Grass starters and being part Poison will help it more than ever, as it seems that UU will be seeing a lot more Fighting types. But yeah, its versatility and wide movepool are what will keep it in the competition as most players will almost always find a use for Venusaur.

    Charizard is not so fortunate, as people are focused on new (and old) Fire type threats. Victini, Darminatan, CC Arcanine, and of course Ninetales are most notable. Moltres is still better to use and the newly Fire type oven Rotom is another option without the crippling Flying type. Yeah, Charizard dies too quickly and it's not looking good for it.

    I might write more later on the older starters but I'm going to address the issue of the Isshu ones. *shot for bad pun* Serperior has potential but my god that movepool is awful any way you put it. It can't use Perversity well because its special movepool literally consists of Grass move, Hidden Power, and Round. I run Return / Coil / Leaf Blade / Leech Seed on my in-game one, and even in-game it's walled by a lot. Sub-seeding variants are outclassed by Whimsicott. Shaymin is a 600 BST pure Grass that also competes for a team slot. It does have an interesting use of being a bulky double screening lead that I have plans to test one of these days, but yeah. I really hope Grey and beyond adds some more options to its movepool because it's not looking good so far.

    People give Emboar too much shit because they compare it to its other Fire/Fighting brethren, but I think it's rather capable and the comparison is a bit unfair. It's slow, but it's just as difficult to wall as Ape and Blaziken and doesn't die in one hit. I can't say much right now, but with such a wide movepool and decent mixed attacking stats, I find it difficult to believe it will end up low. I wish its DW ability was Rock Head instead of Reckless.

    Samurott is largely inferior to Gatr. Yes, it can be mixed, but I've seen a few mixed builds and I question their efficacy over purely physical or purely special sets. It got shafted in the DW ability department too. If your sole reason for using it is Megahorn for coverage, then you should seriously question what role it's supposed to serve. I think I've made it obvious I'm not a big fan of this Pokemon so yeah ;p

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