Competitive Flareon!

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    The fox's shadow Lord Kyuubi's Avatar
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    Default Competitive Flareon!

    We all know flareon. Large, orange and very fluffy, but sadly, not very fortunate. For years now, flareon has been victimised, oppressed by harsh trainers worldwide. It has been ignored at best, and mocked at worst. It has been left at home, forgotten, like an old ornament which no longer shines. People put it on display, treat it like nothing more than a pretty picture.

    Flareon has fought, struggled for its place. But forever, it has been denied the respect it deserves. It has burned plants, bitten bugs. It has been battered by stealth rocks, slashed by dragons. And what does it have to show for it? Nothing more than a ruined reputation and a reservation in the PC! Mention flareon and how will someone react? Will they show respect or admiration for it? No! They will laugh and jeer, and then point you to an arcanine!

    But no more! No more, I say! Now is the time for flareon to strike back! Now is the time for flareon to triumph!

    ...Uh, yeah, you're meant to all clap and cheer and stuff at that bit...


    Anyway, I figured the way to solve flareon's problem is to use one competitively, and encourage others to do the same. This brings up a rather immediate problem: How do you use flareon competitively? I tried to make a specially defensive set back in gen 5. Long story short, it didn't go very well.

    But now gen 6 comes along, bringing flareon a wonderful new toy. No, I'm not talking about flare blitz. I'm talking about the assault vest. So I was thinking of using a mixed attacking flareon with an assault vest, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Fire blast is obviously my main attack, but what else? And how should I support it?
    Signed, Lord Kyuubi


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    Is Not A Moderator TerraTF's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kyuubi View Post
    But now gen 6 comes along, bringing flareon a wonderful new toy. No, I'm not talking about flare blitz. I'm talking about the assault vest. So I was thinking of using a mixed attacking flareon with an assault vest, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Fire blast is obviously my main attack, but what else? And how should I support it?
    You do know what Assault Vest does right? It raises Special Defense by 50%, not Special Attack.

    Either this is a joke thread or you are unfortunately serious about using Flareon. If you use a Flareon on your team you'll be laughed at because its only usable move is Fire Fang and that misses a lot.
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Flareon lacks coverage, unfortunately. If you want to try something like that, then it should probably have Shadow Ball. Not sure about other moves.
    However, the problem is, Flareon w/ Flare Blitz is a suicide sweeper, not plain sweeper. Flareon has very low HP. And if you go mixed, then the physical STAB still has to be Flare Blitz, as the others lack base power. And Flare Blitz recoil will lead to you being unable to survive anything after that, not even with Assault Vest and good SpDef (and it is sure as hell that Flareon won't survive an EQ or a Waterfall or Stone Edge or anything physical that is effective against Fire).
    Still, the moveset would look something like
    - Fire Blast/Flamethrower
    - Shadow Ball
    - Flare Blitz
    - Return (there is absolutely nothing else that can be slapped onto AV Flareon)

    I think that it might have a niche: taking out frail (either specially or physically) special sweepers. And the support would be required to either take out whatever can ko Flareon before it is thrown into the battle, or to fish for a Fire move for Flareon to switch in on (that, however, would require good prediction)

    Generally, I don't think that using Flareon is that great of an idea, though it may be viable in lower tiers
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    The Deceiver Pokemon Team Gaara's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Like Terra said, Assault Vest boost SpD not SpA, which is not good on Flareon. If you do really want to use Flareon, you'll first want to boost up her speed, whether it be Trick Room or Stick Web or Baton Pass, because with its speed, it and low Physical Defense, it won't be surviving much of anything.

    I'd suggest Guts and Toxic Orb for the extra boost of power with Return/Facade and Flare Blitz, I guess. In general, Flareon won't be very good by herself against the current commonly used threats. She'd need to be faster and a bit bulkier, so maybe try a Baton Pass team.

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    The fox's shadow Lord Kyuubi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by TerraTF View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kyuubi View Post
    But now gen 6 comes along, bringing flareon a wonderful new toy. No, I'm not talking about flare blitz. I'm talking about the assault vest. So I was thinking of using a mixed attacking flareon with an assault vest, but I'm not sure how to go about it. Fire blast is obviously my main attack, but what else? And how should I support it?
    You do know what Assault Vest does right? It raises Special Defense by 50%, not Special Attack.

    Either this is a joke thread or you are unfortunately serious about using Flareon. If you use a Flareon on your team you'll be laughed at because its only usable move is Fire Fang and that misses a lot.
    Yes, I am aware that's what it does, and since flareon has very good special defence, I thought it would be a good use. Switch into special attackers and then hit back hard, kind of thing. Could also switch onto some of the more helpless walls, and then use either a physical or special attack, whichever they're not equipped to defend against.

    It's somewhere between a joke and serious. And even flame charge would be better than fire fang, since it's only slightly weaker, and the speed bonus is nice. Not that I plan to use either, mind, as flareon does have better moves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexey View Post
    Flareon lacks coverage, unfortunately. If you want to try something like that, then it should probably have Shadow Ball. Not sure about other moves.
    However, the problem is, Flareon w/ Flare Blitz is a suicide sweeper, not plain sweeper. Flareon has very low HP. And if you go mixed, then the physical STAB still has to be Flare Blitz, as the others lack base power. And Flare Blitz recoil will lead to you being unable to survive anything after that, not even with Assault Vest and good SpDef (and it is sure as hell that Flareon won't survive an EQ or a Waterfall or Stone Edge or anything physical that is effective against Fire).
    Still, the moveset would look something like
    - Fire Blast/Flamethrower
    - Shadow Ball
    - Flare Blitz
    - Return (there is absolutely nothing else that can be slapped onto AV Flareon)

    I think that it might have a niche: taking out frail (either specially or physically) special sweepers. And the support would be required to either take out whatever can ko Flareon before it is thrown into the battle, or to fish for a Fire move for Flareon to switch in on (that, however, would require good prediction)

    Generally, I don't think that using Flareon is that great of an idea, though it may be viable in lower tiers
    I have no intention of using flare blitz, since having no recovery is bad enough on its own. Fire blast will suffice, I think, since it only has slightly lower power. Its certainly preferable for not having recoil.

    My plan, as stated above was to work as a 'special pivot' of sorts, and I will have to sort out physical defending with the rest of the team.

    I was wondering if quick attack would be viable for finishing off very weak opponents. It has the element of surprise at least, and that counts for something. Or would return be better?

    Should I try experimenting with flareon in UU before trying to make the jump to OU? I realise flareon will never actually be in those tiers, but it won't get recognition anywhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Gaara View Post
    Like Terra said, Assault Vest boost SpD not SpA, which is not good on Flareon. If you do really want to use Flareon, you'll first want to boost up her speed, whether it be Trick Room or Stick Web or Baton Pass, because with its speed, it and low Physical Defense, it won't be surviving much of anything.

    I'd suggest Guts and Toxic Orb for the extra boost of power with Return/Facade and Flare Blitz, I guess. In general, Flareon won't be very good by herself against the current commonly used threats. She'd need to be faster and a bit bulkier, so maybe try a Baton Pass team.
    As stated previously, I'm going to try and avoid physical attacks as best I can (leave that up to the rest of the team), and focus on countering special attackers.

    I guess I could use sticky web, which means for countering stealth rocks, I'll want rapid spin not defog. Okay, thanks, making some progress here.

    I don't think a whole baton passing team really suits me, I'm afraid, but I could try a single baton passer, like a gorebyss, or something.

    For a moveset, currently looking at:
    -Fire blast
    -Superpower
    -Return/quick attack
    -Shadow ball

    How about my EVs? Should I go 252 SpA, 252 Attack, 4 SpD? And what nature?

    I realise flareon is not a great battler, but that's partly what's enticing me to use it. Raise its status and whatnot. Did you not read my 'great speech'? ;P
    Last edited by Lord Kyuubi; 30th March 2014 at 11:19 AM.
    Signed, Lord Kyuubi


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    The Deceiver Pokemon Team Gaara's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kyuubi View Post
    As stated previously, I'm going to try and avoid physical attacks as best I can (leave that up to the rest of the team), and focus on countering special attackers.

    I guess I could use sticky web, which means for countering stealth rocks, I'll want rapid spin not defog. Okay, thanks, making some progress here.

    I don't think a whole baton passing team really suits me, I'm afraid, but I could try a single baton passer, like a gorebyss, or something.

    For a moveset, currently looking at:
    -Fire blast
    -Superpower
    -Return/quick attack
    -Shadow ball

    How about my EVs? Should I go 252 SpA, 252 Attack, 4 SpD? And what nature?

    I realise flareon is not a great battler, but that's partly what's enticing me to use it. Raise its status and whatnot. Did you not read my 'great speech'? ;P
    Yeah, Sticky Web and Rapid Spin would be good. Not sure about Gorebyss since it passes Shell Smash, right? That wouldn't be so good since it'll lower both Defenses, but it is possible. I'd think more of Baton Passing Speed and Defense, moreso than Attack, since Flareon has that.

    Not too sure about the EVs or Nature. If you're going Physical and Special with moves and you want to avoid Physical attacks, I'd suggest either lowering the Defense or Speed, though that normally isn't a good idea. What Natures are you considering? Since Flareon is primarily Physical, I'd certainly max out Attack, and maybe half of the rest in SpD and the rest in SpA?

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    Registered User Alexey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    I'm using Pokemon like Swellow, Minun, Klinklang, and Muk, so I can understand the desire to use something that nobody ever uses :) Also, the fluffiness!

    However, I don't undrstand if are you trying to make it mixed or special? It's either with Flare Blitz (Flame Charge is not good because getting hit after attacking is also a form of recoil), or full special. Fire Blast has only slightly lower power itself, true, but the difference between Flareon's SpAtk and Atk is considerable. I've just ran some calcs, and often where Flare Blitz gives a OHKO, Fire Blast will be a 2HKO (special attackers also tend to have at least decent SpDef, which I oversaw previously). If it is fully Special, then it is not capitalizing on Flareon's strengths. That is, unless you intend to use the element of surprise and send Flareon out to kill Tyranitars with Superpower, which would be entertaining :D But if you're going against special attackers, I guess that you would really want to have a decent physical STAB

    Also, recovery is something that walls would need, rather than sweepers.

    Quick Attack... it would be as viable on Flareon as it would be on anything else :) It will finish off weak opponents, but the opponent would have to be REALLY weak (40 BP, no STAB), which makes it very situational

    And I think that if you want to use something in OU, go straight for OU. I'll be happy if I end up eating my words about Special Flareon being bad :)
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    The fox's shadow Lord Kyuubi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Gaara View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kyuubi View Post
    As stated previously, I'm going to try and avoid physical attacks as best I can (leave that up to the rest of the team), and focus on countering special attackers.

    I guess I could use sticky web, which means for countering stealth rocks, I'll want rapid spin not defog. Okay, thanks, making some progress here.

    I don't think a whole baton passing team really suits me, I'm afraid, but I could try a single baton passer, like a gorebyss, or something.

    For a moveset, currently looking at:
    -Fire blast
    -Superpower
    -Return/quick attack
    -Shadow ball

    How about my EVs? Should I go 252 SpA, 252 Attack, 4 SpD? And what nature?

    I realise flareon is not a great battler, but that's partly what's enticing me to use it. Raise its status and whatnot. Did you not read my 'great speech'? ;P
    Yeah, Sticky Web and Rapid Spin would be good. Not sure about Gorebyss since it passes Shell Smash, right? That wouldn't be so good since it'll lower both Defenses, but it is possible. I'd think more of Baton Passing Speed and Defense, moreso than Attack, since Flareon has that.

    Not too sure about the EVs or Nature. If you're going Physical and Special with moves and you want to avoid Physical attacks, I'd suggest either lowering the Defense or Speed, though that normally isn't a good idea. What Natures are you considering? Since Flareon is primarily Physical, I'd certainly max out Attack, and maybe half of the rest in SpD and the rest in SpA?
    Well, I could use a white herb so I don't get the defence drops. Although it would be nice to have maybe a focus sash to ensure I can get the boosts safely? I'm not too familiar with baton passing, so I don't really know.

    My main attack is fire blast, so I'll probably want max SpA. I think. My physical moves, as they are at the moment, don't have STAB, so on the other hand, maybe they'd need more of a boost?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexey View Post
    I'm using Pokemon like Swellow, Minun, Klinklang, and Muk, so I can understand the desire to use something that nobody ever uses :) Also, the fluffiness!

    However, I don't undrstand if are you trying to make it mixed or special? It's either with Flare Blitz (Flame Charge is not good because getting hit after attacking is also a form of recoil), or full special. Fire Blast has only slightly lower power itself, true, but the difference between Flareon's SpAtk and Atk is considerable. I've just ran some calcs, and often where Flare Blitz gives a OHKO, Fire Blast will be a 2HKO (special attackers also tend to have at least decent SpDef, which I oversaw previously). If it is fully Special, then it is not capitalizing on Flareon's strengths. That is, unless you intend to use the element of surprise and send Flareon out to kill Tyranitars with Superpower, which would be entertaining :D But if you're going against special attackers, I guess that you would really want to have a decent physical STAB

    Also, recovery is something that walls would need, rather than sweepers.

    Quick Attack... it would be as viable on Flareon as it would be on anything else :) It will finish off weak opponents, but the opponent would have to be REALLY weak (40 BP, no STAB), which makes it very situational

    And I think that if you want to use something in OU, go straight for OU. I'll be happy if I end up eating my words about Special Flareon being bad :)
    I'm planning mixed, the problem being the lack of viable physical STAB moves. Flare blitz has recoil, which we've discussed, and no other STABs are strong enough. I love the thought of killing tyranitars, though I can't imagine how I'd switch in safely. Unless of course it switched into me, which would be hilarious. Anyway, the principle is to weaken or take out select specially-based opponents, usually through a system of 'I could beat you before you could beat me', so OHKOing may not always be necessary, though I won't deny it would be preferable.

    Still, recovery is always nice. I can't sweep if I'm dead, can I? But anyway, point taken. I normally invest in a cleric for the team, anyway.

    I see, I think return would be a better option, then. Thanks.

    Okay, OU it is then! I might post some replays and stuff if you like. Provided I can work out how showdown's replay system works.

    So for a team, we're currently looking at a galvantula for sticky web, something for entry hazards (or at least rocks) and something for rapid spinning. And possibly a baton passer. Would forretress work on the team, since I could set up spikes and rocks, as well as being able to spin away the opponent's hazards? And also slow volt switch would help flareon get onto the field easier. And flareon can cover it against fire moves. Good idea? Or not?

    This is starting to take shape! Thanks!
    Signed, Lord Kyuubi


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    The Deceiver Pokemon Team Gaara's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kyuubi View Post
    Well, I could use a white herb so I don't get the defence drops. Although it would be nice to have maybe a focus sash to ensure I can get the boosts safely? I'm not too familiar with baton passing, so I don't really know.

    My main attack is fire blast, so I'll probably want max SpA. I think. My physical moves, as they are at the moment, don't have STAB, so on the other hand, maybe they'd need more of a boost?
    Okay, Shell Smash with White Herb would be better than the sash. I'd just try to wait for a good time to Shell Smash so you don't have to worry about getting KO'd.

    If you really want to max the SpA then you can, I guess, though I still think you should go the physical route.

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    Outplay the Coinflip -Glory Blaze-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    AV is not meant for Pokémon with high SpDef. It is designed for Pokémon with high Physical Defense to patch up their other stat and make them a mixed defensive tank. That's why it's best users are things like Conkledurr, Tangrowth, Regirock, Drapion. The few exceptions to this rule are not tanks, but walls. AV TTar, Goodra, Tentacruel, etc use the AV to boost their already high SpDef but use moves like Dragon Tail, Knock Off, Rapid spin, etc to support the team rather than act as an attacker like you propose for Flareon.

    On topic - AV Flareon is completely nonviable. What you can do, however, is this:

    Flareon @ Toxic Orb
    Guts
    Adamant
    252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
    ~Flare Blitz
    ~Facade
    ~Superpower
    ~Flame Charge / Quick Attack

    to act as a semi-decent wallbreaker.

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    The fox's shadow Lord Kyuubi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Team Gaara View Post
    Okay, Shell Smash with White Herb would be better than the sash. I'd just try to wait for a good time to Shell Smash so you don't have to worry about getting KO'd.

    If you really want to max the SpA then you can, I guess, though I still think you should go the physical route.
    Well, I can experiment. I'll switch to a physical nature on your recommendation, and if it doesn't work out, I can always go back to a special one. Thanks.

    So do I actually have the space in my team for a gorebyss? Just thinking now I put it together that I may not have enough spaces.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Glory Blaze- View Post
    AV is not meant for Pokémon with high SpDef. It is designed for Pokémon with high Physical Defense to patch up their other stat and make them a mixed defensive tank. That's why it's best users are things like Conkledurr, Tangrowth, Regirock, Drapion. The few exceptions to this rule are not tanks, but walls. AV TTar, Goodra, Tentacruel, etc use the AV to boost their already high SpDef but use moves like Dragon Tail, Knock Off, Rapid spin, etc to support the team rather than act as an attacker like you propose for Flareon.

    On topic - AV Flareon is completely nonviable. What you can do, however, is this:

    Flareon @ Toxic Orb
    Guts
    Adamant
    252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
    ~Flare Blitz
    ~Facade
    ~Superpower
    ~Flame Charge / Quick Attack

    to act as a semi-decent wallbreaker.
    I know it's not a traditional use, but I decided it might be worth a try. Ah, well. Anyway, I'll try your set too, but what sort of team will I need?

    To clarify, AV flareon's team is mostly done, though I'm still missing a couple of pokemon, so I won't be dropping it completely just yet. I may drop it later if I find the other more useful.
    Signed, Lord Kyuubi


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    Outplay the Coinflip -Glory Blaze-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Kyuubi View Post

    Well, I can experiment. I'll switch to a physical nature on your recommendation, and if it doesn't work out, I can always go back to a special one. Thanks.

    So do I actually have the space in my team for a gorebyss? Just thinking now I put it together that I may not have enough spaces.

    Quote Originally Posted by -Glory Blaze- View Post
    AV is not meant for Pokémon with high SpDef. It is designed for Pokémon with high Physical Defense to patch up their other stat and make them a mixed defensive tank. That's why it's best users are things like Conkledurr, Tangrowth, Regirock, Drapion. The few exceptions to this rule are not tanks, but walls. AV TTar, Goodra, Tentacruel, etc use the AV to boost their already high SpDef but use moves like Dragon Tail, Knock Off, Rapid spin, etc to support the team rather than act as an attacker like you propose for Flareon.

    On topic - AV Flareon is completely nonviable. What you can do, however, is this:

    Flareon @ Toxic Orb
    Guts
    Adamant
    252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
    ~Flare Blitz
    ~Facade
    ~Superpower
    ~Flame Charge / Quick Attack

    to act as a semi-decent wallbreaker.
    I know it's not a traditional use, but I decided it might be worth a try. Ah, well. Anyway, I'll try your set too, but what sort of team will I need?

    To clarify, AV flareon's team is mostly done, though I'm still missing a couple of pokemon, so I won't be dropping it completely just yet. I may drop it later if I find the other more useful.
    I would recommend Sticky Web Hyper Offense. Galvantula/Flareon/Bisharp/Special Sweeper/Special Wallbreaker/Physical Cleaner is how I'd do it.

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    The fox's shadow Lord Kyuubi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by -Glory Blaze- View Post
    I would recommend Sticky Web Hyper Offense. Galvantula/Flareon/Bisharp/Special Sweeper/Special Wallbreaker/Physical Cleaner is how I'd do it.
    Noted. I'm not great at hyper offence, but I guess it's worth a try. But shouldn't I have at least one bulky pokemon? Anyway, thanks for your help. I shall test a team along those lines and report the results soonish. Might take a day or two if I'm busy.
    Signed, Lord Kyuubi


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    The fox's shadow Lord Kyuubi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Competitive Flareon!

    Quote Originally Posted by -Glory Blaze- View Post
    OU replay: Glory Blaze vs. Luxray80 - Pokémon Showdown

    Made a bunch of misplays b/c I just threw this team together right now and am still getting used to it, but Flareon puts in some major work here.
    That's got to be one of the most entertaining things I've seen in ages. Especially flareon's part. (Incidentally, we both use the same nickname for flareon. What were the chances?) Thanks for testing it out for me, I may try my own take on that sort of team about now and see how it works out.
    Signed, Lord Kyuubi


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