BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

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Thread: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

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    Default BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    As you can probably tell there was some slight schedule slippage between #2 and #3, so I'm not really sure if we're doing these analyses on Thursdays or Saturdays at this point! :P Regardless, here's the fourth Pokémon of the Week discussion brought to you by the Bulbagarden Battle League: Galvantula.

    BBL PotW #4: Galvantula
    Galvantula is a pretty popular Pokémon. Known for being both adorable and cool at the same time, it's even more adorable pre-evolution, and it's ability to fire off 91% accurate Thunders, it was usable - if barely - in OU last generation due to its great STAB combination and access to Energy Ball and Giga Drain, allowing it to run Hidden Power Ice or Rock or Volt Switch without missing out on the Grass coverage that other Electric types needed to use their Hidden Power for. However, it's frailty left it wallowing in mediocrity - while it never dropped to the depths of NU, it found its home in RarelyUsed, the shallow end of the same pool. This generation has catapulted our favorite electric arachnid from RU all the way to OU, being the 58th most used Pokémon on Smogon's simulator, found on 3.34621% of OU teams and a weighted percent of 3.513%. While this doesn't seem too far above the OU cutoff of 3.41% usage, Galvantula beats out former OU monsters such as Hydreigon, Kyurem-Black, Thundurus-Therian, and more. What caused the change? Sticky Web. This single move is the one reason to use Galvantula in OU, and is easily one of the three best moves in the game, next to Stealth Rock and Knock Off. Its poor distribution holds it back from becoming nearly as centralizing as Stealth Rock was back in Gen IV, with its only users being NU Pokémon like Shuckle, Ariados, Leavanny, and Kricketune. The one exception to that rule is Galvantula - a RU Pokémon that already had (a very small) niche in OU. As the bsolute best user of Sticky Web, Galvantula is easy to fit onto teams - it's fast, Focus Sash guarantees that it can take a hit on the off chance that something faster comes out, its STAB combination annihilates every Magic Bounce user, including newcomer Mega Absol, and its Thunders take care of Defog users who might want to switch in to clean up Sticky Web. However, it is so frail that it fails to stick around long to reset Sticky Web, making Volt Switch almost necessary in order to pivot Galvantula out of sticky situations. This leaves it stuck with a major case of 4MSS, as it essentially has to run Thunder/Bug Buzz/Sticky Web/Volt Switch. This prevents it from taking advantage of its fantastic coverage moves as well as making it predictable, if rather hard to play around due to the points mentioned above.

    IN-DEPTH LOOK

    Galvantula
    Type: Bug/Electric
    Ability: Compund Eyes, Unnerve, Swarm
    Stats: 70//77/60/97/60/108

    SETS

    Galvantula @ Focus Sash
    Compund Eyes
    Timid
    252 Sp Atk/4 Sp Def/252 Speed
    ~Sticky Web
    ~Thunder
    ~Bug Buzz
    ~Volt Switch/Energy Ball

    This is it. The only set Galvantula can run viably in OU. Galvantula can be played two ways, depending on the last move - a suicide lead or a hit-and-run attacker. Either way, it is best used early in a game, where it can lay Sticky Web and then either hit the opposing Pokémon hard with a Super Effective Energy Ball or a neutral STAB, or pivot out with Volt Switch. Sticky Web is the core of this moveset, supporting the rest of your team massively. I called it one of the top three moves in the game earlier, and with good reason - this move turns slow powerhouses into terrifying sweepers, and allows sweepers who were already terrifying to invest in bulk over Speed, making them much harder to revenge kill. Thunder is your attacking move of choice, its 110 Base Power and 30% paralysis chance make up for Galvantula's 97 Special Attack stat - above average, but by no means fantastic. With Compound Eyes, Thunder hits 91% accuracy, which is downright reliable compared to its previous 70%. Thunder hits a whole slew of things hard, especially the common bulky Waters and Flying-type sweepers. It is notable for nailing Xatu (one user of Magic Bounce), Crobat and Mandibuzz (two of the most common Defog users), as well as numerous other, more obscure Defoggers. Bug Buzz rounds off Galvantula's STAB, giving him the ability to hit Ground and Dragon types neutral as well as Dark, Psychic, and Bug types Super Effectively. This is also a key move, as it hammers Espeon, Mega Absol, and Latias (the other Magic Bouncers and another common Defogger), preventing them from switching in. The last slot is up to preference - Volt Switch is recommended to save your 1 HP Galvantula to set up Sticky Web one more time later in the game, usually in preparation for a sweep, but Energy Ball can be used to hit Galvantula's common Ground-type switch-ins hard if you're determined to play Galvantula as a suicide lead. Other moves, like HP Ice and Giga Drain, are rendered unviable by their low Base Power, and Galvantula is too frail to take advantage of Giga Drain's healing even though his Life Orb set loved it in the past generation.

    Galvantula does not need much team support - keeping Rocks and Spikes off the field is nice, as it allows him a final switch in to revenge kill a slower mon or set up Sticky Web a second time, but only Rapid Spin is usable as Defog takes your own Web off of the field. That's about the extent of the support Galvantula needs to do his job.

    Countering Galvantula is relatively easy - it's hard to prevent him from getting up Sticky Web, but it's easy to kill him off so he can't get it up again after you Defog or Rapid Spin it away. One way is to lead with a priority user (not Crawdaunt or Azumarill, obviously) that can bring Galvantula down to his Sash as he sets up the Web and then take him out before he can Volt Switch away. Faster Fake Out users can flinch Galvantula and then take him out before he can even set up Sticky Web, but a good player will spot that strategy immediately and just hard-switch out. Mamoswine can set up Stealth Rock along side Galvantula and threaten with Icicle Spear, and Cloyster can do the same by setting up Shell Smash on the Web and then attacking with Icicle Spear or Rock Blast. Note that a good Galvantula player will just go for Thunder upon seeing a Cloyster, meaning that this strategy is only viable when running Focus Sash over White Herb or King's Rock. No matter how tempted you are to bring in an Espeon, Xatu, or Mega Absol in on Galvantula, that will almost never turn out well as most Galvantula users will predict that and go straight for a Bug Buzz or Thunder on your switch in. The same goes for Defog users - don't switch in a Mandibuzz, Latias or Crobat to immediately remove Sticky Web. Save them until after Galvantula is dead. Outside of these strategies, you can always just nail Galvantula with a neutral STAB or a Super Effective coverage move, as nearly every Pokémon in the tier can 2HKO Galvantula. You'll have to live with Sticky Web and Volt Switch shenanigans, but it's not too hard to take the electric arachnid out of the game. Also note that you can play around Sticky Web with Fliers and Levitators, although the former often have trouble dealing with Galvantula himself and common variants of the latter are often accounted for by Galvantula users while team-building.

    GALVANTULA AS A TEAM PLAYER

    Like I mentioned before, Galvantula is exceedingly easy to stick on teams. It requires little to no support to function, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a team that owuldn't appreciate outspeeding the opponent all the time. However, there is one team archetype that really appreciates Galvantula's presence more than any other, and that would be Hyper Offense. HO teams are known for being susceptible to priority, and have been overshadowed by Bulky Offense and Semi-Stall in this priority-dominated metagame. Sticky Web allows HO teams to invest EVs in bulk over Speed, making them infinitely more frightening, as you can't really on just a Conkeldurr or Crawdaunt or Talonflame to clean up most or all of the team. An example of a team that uses Galvantula well might be:

    Galvantula @ Focus Sash
    Compund Eyes
    Timid
    252 Sp Atk/4 Sp Def/252 Speed
    ~Sticky Web
    ~Thunder
    ~Bug Buzz
    ~Volt Switch/Energy Ball

    Bisharp @ Lum Berry/Dread Plate
    Defiant
    Adamant
    124 HP/252 Atk/132 Speed
    ~Swords Dance
    ~Sucker Punch
    ~Iron Head
    ~Substitute/Knock Off

    Aegislash @ Life Orb/Spooky Plate
    Stance Change
    Brave/Quiet Nature
    252 Atk/252 Sp Atk/4 Sp Def
    ~Shadow Ball
    ~Shadow Sneak
    ~Iron Head/King's Shield
    ~Sacred Sword

    Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
    Intimidate
    Adamant
    252 HP/252 Atk/4 Speed
    ~Waterfall
    ~Dragon Dance
    ~Iron Head/Stone Edge
    ~Earthquake

    Dragonite @ Weakness Policy
    Multiscale
    Adamant
    240 HP/252 Atk/16 Speed
    ~Dragon Claw
    ~Dragon Dance
    ~Earthquake/Fire Punch
    ~Extreme Speed/Roost

    Excadrill @ Air Balloon
    Mold Breaker
    Adamant
    252 HP/252 Atk/4 Speed
    ~Earthquake
    ~Swords Dance
    ~Rapid Spin
    ~Rock Slide

    ~~~

    Thanks for reading the BBL's fourth Pokémon of the Week Analysis! Feel free to leave thoughts, suggestions, comments, and questions below! :)

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    I am glad you have made a weekly dissucsionfor Galvantula, however you missed an important set for it to play,

    Galvantula @Choice Scarf
    Compund Eyes
    Timid
    252 Sp Def/4 Sp Atk/252 Speed
    ~Sticky Web
    ~Thunder
    ~Bug Buzz
    ~Volt Switch/Energy Ball
    this set is good defencivly and alows you to be able to get first move on any of your moves, this is good for sticky web expacaly.
    Last edited by superbobbobbob3; 25th January 2014 at 04:08 PM.

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Quote Originally Posted by superbobbobbob3 View Post
    I am glad you have made a weekly dissucsionfor Galvantula, however you missed an important set for it to play,

    Galvantula @Choice Scarf
    Compund Eyes
    Timid
    252 Sp Def/4 Sp Atk/252 Speed
    ~Sticky Web
    ~Thunder
    ~Bug Buzz
    ~Volt Switch/Energy Ball
    this set is good defencivly and alows you to be able to get first move on any of your moves, this is good for sticky web expacaly.
    Sorry, but that set is worthless in competitive play. Galvantula cannot live neutral STAB or SE hits regardless of defensive investment, and it does not hit hard enough even with Thunder to forgo Sp Atk investment. On top of that, Galvantula cannot effectively abuse Choice Scarf since it's entire niche consists of using Sticky Web followed Volt Switch/Thunder/Bug Buzz, which it cannot do while Choiced. The only set Galvantula should ever run is the one in the OP, unless it drops to UU or below in the future. Thanks for contributing, though, and feel free to ask questions if this explanation wasn't clear enough. :)

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    The BBL Challenger superbobbobbob3's Avatar
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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Quote Originally Posted by -Glory Blaze- View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by superbobbobbob3 View Post
    I am glad you have made a weekly dissucsionfor Galvantula, however you missed an important set for it to play,

    Galvantula @Choice Scarf
    Compund Eyes
    Timid
    252 Sp Def/4 Sp Atk/252 Speed
    ~Sticky Web
    ~Thunder
    ~Bug Buzz
    ~Volt Switch/Energy Ball
    this set is good defencivly and alows you to be able to get first move on any of your moves, this is good for sticky web expacaly.
    Sorry, but that set is worthless in competitive play. Galvantula cannot live neutral STAB or SE hits regardless of defensive investment, and it does not hit hard enough even with Thunder to forgo Sp Atk investment. On top of that, Galvantula cannot effectively abuse Choice Scarf since it's entire niche consists of using Sticky Web followed Volt Switch/Thunder/Bug Buzz, which it cannot do while Choiced. The only set Galvantula should ever run is the one in the OP, unless it drops to UU or below in the future. Thanks for contributing, though, and feel free to ask questions if this explanation wasn't clear enough. :)
    While I can agree, I can also dissagree as MANY people use the set I have showed you, lets say that you send out a galvantula and the oponet sends out a greninja, both have there max speed (thus greninja is faster) with your stratigy you will only get one stiky web in, but with mine you could get two or an attack like yours, which most players want.
    Plus unlike the other dissucsions this only has one startigy
    also if you still dont like the stratigy i gave you i think you should ask the other gym leaders for there opinines
    Last edited by superbobbobbob3; 25th January 2014 at 04:10 PM.

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Quote Originally Posted by superbobbobbob3 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by -Glory Blaze- View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by superbobbobbob3 View Post
    I am glad you have made a weekly dissucsionfor Galvantula, however you missed an important set for it to play,

    Galvantula @Choice Scarf
    Compund Eyes
    Timid
    252 Sp Def/4 Sp Atk/252 Speed
    ~Sticky Web
    ~Thunder
    ~Bug Buzz
    ~Volt Switch/Energy Ball
    this set is good defencivly and alows you to be able to get first move on any of your moves, this is good for sticky web expacaly.
    Sorry, but that set is worthless in competitive play. Galvantula cannot live neutral STAB or SE hits regardless of defensive investment, and it does not hit hard enough even with Thunder to forgo Sp Atk investment. On top of that, Galvantula cannot effectively abuse Choice Scarf since it's entire niche consists of using Sticky Web followed Volt Switch/Thunder/Bug Buzz, which it cannot do while Choiced. The only set Galvantula should ever run is the one in the OP, unless it drops to UU or below in the future. Thanks for contributing, though, and feel free to ask questions if this explanation wasn't clear enough. :)
    While I can agree, I can also dissagree as MANY people use the set I have showed you, lets say that you send out a galvantula and the oponet sends out a greninja, both have there max speed (thus greninja is faster) with your stratigy you will only get one stiky web in, but with mine you could get two, which most players want.
    Plus unlike the other dissucsions this only has one startigy
    also if you still dont like the stratigy i gave you i think you should ask the other gym leaders for there opinines
    Sorry, but even if you do know people who use that set, it is outclassed by the one in the OP and should not be used in competitive play. I'm sure that other players on the forums will be happy to tell you the same if you don't believe me. Being faster than the Greninja in your example doesn't matter, and in fact is worse. You will still get Sticky Web up since you have Focus Sash, but you won't die. Look, in your scenario: Galvantula uses Sticky Web, Greninja uses Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, or HP fire. Galv will be left at less than half, since all of those moves 2HKO 0 HP/252 Sp Def Galvantula. You then have to switch out, since you are Choice-locked into Sticky Web. This gives the opponent a free turn to switch in a set-up sweeper or just rack up free damage with his Greninja. In my scenario, you'd be brought down to 1 HP by Hydro Pump, set up Sticky Web, and then switch into a Special Wall. The opponent is forced to attack again with Greninja since you are threatening him with a powerful Thunder if he switches. In general, it is bad to have a status move on a Choiced Pokémon. It is also bad in general to invest in either Defense before fully oinvesting in HP, but that is irrelevant since this set should not be used anyways.

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    I like Galvantula in principle as it does a good job.

    In active play it is generally (I should really say almost always) used as an opener due to sticky web. So I am going to look at how it performs in this role.

    Firstly when fighting the other common openers here is usually how it goes.

    FS Smeargle - Sticky web down/hurt to fs but gets spored and then opponent does sticky web. (negative play :( )
    Greninja - Sticky web down then gets killed. So job done.
    Ferrothorn - Sticky web down vs stealth rock from opponent. Someone will then switch out or Ferrothorn just about gets the kill after a 2-3shot. Job done.
    Zoroark - If someone has this on there team they always use it first so bug buzz as your first move and 1shot it. Then do sticky web. Job well done.

    And finally cos I use this often but its not that common
    Crobat - usually they'll use thunder so I tend to either go for a 70% damage faster hit with brave bird and ruin any chance for sticky web or rarely if I feel very aggressive Hypnosis for 60% that they arent going to be doing anything bar dying (never pick taunt). If they sticky web first they mega fail as 2 brave birds kills them and then defog takes it away anyway. Stopping sticky web on a team that needs sticky web usually costs them the game.

    Another option you can always go for against a Galvantula user is to open with a boost sweeper like Dragonite, Mega Luke or Charizard X. Sure its early but they only way an opponent is getting any of those three stopped after a turn or two or DD or SD is to bring in something bulky/slow which a defog/RS user can switch into right after and then remove SW.

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    I also use Galvantula in regular play. It's mostly worthless once I set up Sticky Web, but it almost always leads off.
    If it gets put to sleep by a Smeargle, I just switch it out later for death fodder. In fact, if it survives any hit, I still switch it out for death fodder.
    Magic Bounce Absol and Espeon can usually be crushed with Galvantula's Bug Buzz, so to be honest I don't find them to be a problem.
    And I find few people leading off with Greninja as well. Maybe I just don't battle enough people.

    While I've never considered Sp Def investment in Galvantula, I suppose it could work under the right circumstances. It seems like somewhat of an odd Galvantula, but it would definitely catch me off guard.

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Galvantula just isn't worth it in competitive play. Unless you're playing hyper offense (which won't get you far) the speed difference is almost irrelevant, especially given the major buff to defog. Given how much of a one shot this pokemon is, I can't expect his ranking to stay as high as it is now. He serves his utility well enough but you kind of need to build an entire team based on sticky web for it to be even worth using.
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    Effing Fabulous -Glory Blaze-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Quote Originally Posted by DCM View Post
    Galvantula just isn't worth it in competitive play. Unless you're playing hyper offense (which won't get you far) the speed difference is almost irrelevant, especially given the major buff to defog. Given how much of a one shot this pokemon is, I can't expect his ranking to stay as high as it is now. He serves his utility well enough but you kind of need to build an entire team based on sticky web for it to be even worth using.

    I would disagree. Speed is arguably the most important stat, that's why 'gimmicky' moves like Trick Room are even viable and why priority is so centralizing. Sticky Web is close to or better than Stealth Rock as an entry hazard. Defog is really not a problem to most SW teams because Galv himself can deal with a lot of Defoggers, and having Bisharp (or something) on your team discourages Defog, since +2 Bisharp sweeps teams. Heck, you don't even have to use Sticky Web, since just Galvantula's presence puts pressure on the opponent's sweepers to get in and set up early before it goes down, forcing the opponent to play recklessly from the start. And like I said, it's best use is on Bulky Offense, by letting slow threats (Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Bisharp) stand toe to toe with and come out on top of faster mins, and allows mons with a decent speed tier (Mega Gyarados, Dragonite, Mega Garchomp) to invest in bulk over Speed, making them harder to revenge kill.

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    ...but trick room isn't "viable." People don't use trick room because it doesn't work well. Speed is secondary to bulk, hence why Rotom-Wash, Aegislash and heatran are among the top ten most used pokemon.

    Stealth Rock does reliable damage on switch in, forcing your opponent to choose between potentially facing additional damage as a result of switching out, and later back in, or staying in and losing your mon. Sticky Web doesn't linger when the pokemon is forced out.

    Galvantula will almost never deal with defoggers because Galvantula almost always dies immediately after putting up sticky web, and maybe a thunder if you're using focus sash and you're fast enough. It's just not a viable pokemon for a serious team
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    Effing Fabulous -Glory Blaze-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Quote Originally Posted by DCM View Post
    ...but trick room isn't "viable." People don't use trick room because it doesn't work well. Speed is secondary to bulk, hence why Rotom-Wash, Aegislash and heatran are among the top ten most used pokemon.

    Stealth Rock does reliable damage on switch in, forcing your opponent to choose between potentially facing additional damage as a result of switching out, and later back in, or staying in and losing your mon. Sticky Web doesn't linger when the pokemon is forced out.

    Galvantula will almost never deal with defoggers because Galvantula almost always dies immediately after putting up sticky web, and maybe a thunder if you're using focus sash and you're fast enough. It's just not a viable pokemon for a serious team
    Trick Room is used, not infrequently, in OU, and it is downright common in UU and below, Doubles, and 3v3. That's hardly the point, though - the point is that it's used and is acknowledged as a legitimate strategy by Smogon, like weather and unlike Magic Room, Wonder Room, Terrain moves, etc. And as for Speed being second to bulk, let's look at the top 10 that you just mentioned:

    | 1 | Rotom-Wash | 23.82327% | 590188 | 19.264% | 508298 | 20.849% | Levitates.
    | 2 | Talonflame | 16.67180% | 453848 | 14.814% | 356773 | 14.634% | Flies.
    | 3 | Lucario | 15.90146% | 424511 | 13.856% | 318966 | 13.083% | Neutered by SW.
    | 4 | Genesect | 14.75445% | 341231 | 11.138% | 289620 | 11.879% | Neutered by SW.
    | 5 | Aegislash | 13.25185% | 364924 | 11.911% | 287728 | 11.802% | Can live with SW.
    | 6 | Heatran | 12.75727% | 305797 | 9.981% | 256060 | 10.503% | ScarfTran neutered. 12.77% of Heatran run max Speed and Timid, if you thought it was niche or rare or something.
    | 7 | Garchomp | 12.67194% | 359339 | 11.729% | 274139 | 11.244% | Neutered by SW.
    | 8 | Greninja | 12.43573% | 366164 | 11.952% | 289854 | 11.889% | Neutered by SW.
    | 9 | Scizor | 11.49591% | 330017 | 10.772% | 256435 | 10.518% | Offensive variants neutered by SW, bulky variants can live with it.
    | 10 | Excadrill | 11.06504% | 296515 | 9.678% | 218774 | 8.973% | Neutered by SW.

    Stealth rock deals 3.125% damage to a Mega Lucario. Sticky Web reduces it to 236 Speed, aka the "sit in the corner and cry as that unboosted Gyarados eats up your Bullet Punch/Vacuum Wave and OHKOes you with Earthquake" Speed tier. That's a Pokémon being suspected for Ubers - one that can brag to have 0 counters - completely neutralized with just 1 move. Sticky Web is not useful against dedicated Stall, sure. But it is useful against every team that runs a grounded sweeper, and reliably counters 67%-100% of your average hyper/bulky offense team and 50% of a semi-stall team. That's a pretty big deal.

    This argument does not make much sense. Here are some calcs for common (and not so common) Spinners and Defoggers.



    Which of these wants to switch in on a Galvantula, again? Right, none of them. How is that not "dealing with defoggers"? You say that Galvantula almost always dies after setting up SW. I say that you haven't played very many good SW users. Galvantula's a lead, sure. But you don't always lead with him, and you definitely don't suicide him without good reason. Volt Switch is on the set for a reason, it gets him the heck out of Dodge while doing a good chunk to whatever's out. And of course, if you see the obvious Ground/Lightning Rod/Motor Drive switch in, you can hard switch into a counter instead of wasting a turn Volt Switching futilely - thus giving you the upper hand. Galv's Speed, Focus Sash, and access to Volt Switch pretty much guarantee him to set up 2 Sticky Webs a game - one early to put pressure on the opponent, and one mid-game to prepare a sweep once the opponent's Spinner/Defogger is dealt with.

    That's disregarding the fact that many players welcome Defog. It is one of the most predictable plays in the game, even though it's basically impossible to play around or prevent. But one thing that you can do is switch in a Bisharp. Bisharp at +2 is scary. Bisharp with your team at -1 Speed is scary. Either will sweep a team, either with Knock Off as it outspeeds your wanna-be counters or Sucker Punch as it plows through your walls and tanks, depending on the scenario. Like here, for instance, a Bisharp with SW turns a 6-0 into a victory. Handing your opponent a win condition an a silver platter is generally to be avoided in Pokémon.

    Just as a note: I realized around halfway through typing this that a lot of this sounds like the obnoxious condescending crap you would have to wade through over on Smogon, and I want to apologize for that. :P I just get very passionate about competitive Pokémon, and while I don't believe SW will take the meta by storm due to its shit distribution, it is definitely viable and it sort of irks me to see people dissing it. xP

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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Quote Originally Posted by -Glory Blaze- View Post
    Trick Room is used, not infrequently, in OU, and it is downright common in UU and below, Doubles, and 3v3. That's hardly the point, though - the point is that it's used and is acknowledged as a legitimate strategy by Smogon, like weather and unlike Magic Room, Wonder Room, Terrain moves, etc.
    Choice of words. It's recognized as a strategy that functions, however, it's terrible. This generation is huge on priority moves (Talonflame: Gale Wings, Lucario: Extreme Speed, Genesect: Extreme Speed, Aegislash: Extreme Speed, Scizor: Bullet Punch, Prankster, Mega-Pinsir's Quick Attack, Azumarril's Aquajet.) That being said, that's not the point of this post. I'd love to discuss the pros and cons more in a better suited thread.


    And as for Speed being second to bulk, let's look at the top 10 that you just mentioned

    | 3 | Lucario | 15.90146% | 424511 | 13.856% | 318966 | 13.083% | Neutered by SW.
    | 4 | Genesect | 14.75445% | 341231 | 11.138% | 289620 | 11.879% | Neutered by SW.
    | 5 | Aegislash | 13.25185% | 364924 | 11.911% | 287728 | 11.802% | Can live with SW.
    | 6 | Heatran | 12.75727% | 305797 | 9.981% | 256060 | 10.503% | ScarfTran neutered. 12.77% of Heatran run max Speed and Timid, if you thought it was niche or rare or something.
    | 7 | Garchomp | 12.67194% | 359339 | 11.729% | 274139 | 11.244% | Neutered by SW.
    | 8 | Greninja | 12.43573% | 366164 | 11.952% | 289854 | 11.889% | Neutered by SW.
    | 9 | Scizor | 11.49591% | 330017 | 10.772% | 256435 | 10.518% | Offensive variants neutered by SW, bulky variants can live with it.
    | 10 | Excadrill | 11.06504% | 296515 | 9.678% | 218774 | 8.973% | Neutered by SW.
    Not one of these pokemon are neutered by Sticky Web. All of these pokemon can still function superbly with the minor loss of speed.

    Stealth rock deals 3.125% damage to a Mega Lucario. Sticky Web reduces it to 236 Speed, aka the "sit in the corner and cry as that unboosted Gyarados eats up your Bullet Punch/Vacuum Wave and OHKOes you with Earthquake" Speed tier. That's a Pokémon being suspected for Ubers - one that can brag to have 0 counters - completely neutralized with just 1 move.
    Who are you playing against that would leave Mega-Lucario in against Gyrados? Isn't the point there to force a switch, thus dealing more reliable damage via stealth rock when it switches in later?

    Sticky Web is not useful against dedicated Stall, sure. But it is useful against every team that runs a grounded sweeper, and reliably counters 67%-100% of your average hyper/bulky offense team and 50% of a semi-stall team. That's a pretty big deal.
    Hyper offense is another "not so great" strategy that is easily counterable.

    This argument does not make much sense. Here are some calcs for common (and not so common) Spinners and Defoggers.

    Again, who are you playing against that would leave any of these in against a Galvantula? you have a team of six pokemon, a competent player would switch out understanding STAB thunder is death. you switch in something that can eat the Thunder and either kill Galvantula or force it to switch out (usually the former, as most players understand how frail he is.)

    Which of these wants to switch in on a Galvantula, again? Right, none of them. How is that not "dealing with defoggers"? You say that Galvantula almost always dies after setting up SW. I say that you haven't played very many good SW users. Galvantula's a lead, sure. But you don't always lead with him, and you definitely don't suicide him without good reason. Volt Switch is on the set for a reason, it gets him the heck out of Dodge while doing a good chunk to whatever's out. And of course, if you see the obvious Ground/Lightning Rod/Motor Drive switch in, you can hard switch into a counter instead of wasting a turn Volt Switching futilely - thus giving you the upper hand. Galv's Speed, Focus Sash, and access to Volt Switch pretty much guarantee him to set up 2 Sticky Webs a game - one early to put pressure on the opponent, and one mid-game to prepare a sweep once the opponent's Spinner/Defogger is dealt with.
    I don't consider myself a particularly good player, but on PS my ranking bounces around between 1400 and 1600, depending on my streak. I don't think that's good, but I think most of the people I play with would consider themselves good. Galvantula is too weak to reliably use as anything other than pretty much a suicide lead, even if you're rocking a focus sash. Priority and bulk are far too common for him to be reliably used for anything other than sticky web (and I think it's important to note Smeargle is a better user of Sticky Web, with the additional power of Spore.)

    That's disregarding the fact that many players welcome Defog. It is one of the most predictable plays in the game, even though it's basically impossible to play around or prevent. But one thing that you can do is switch in a Bisharp. Bisharp at +2 is scary. Bisharp with your team at -1 Speed is scary. Either will sweep a team, either with Knock Off as it outspeeds your wanna-be counters or Sucker Punch as it plows through your walls and tanks, depending on the scenario. Like here, for instance, a Bisharp with SW turns a 6-0 into a victory. Handing your opponent a win condition an a silver platter is generally to be avoided in Pokémon.
    Defog on forced switches, then. Team View makes predicting switch ins a lot easier than it used to be. If it's clear your opponent is going to set up, you can usually do something about it.

    I also apologize if I sound condescending in any way. Not intended at all. You should do an analysis on Bisharp next, he's great and not used enough.
    sharkshocker likes this.
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    Effing Fabulous -Glory Blaze-'s Avatar
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    Default Re: BBL: Weekly Discussion #4 ~ Galvantula

    Quote Originally Posted by DCM View Post

    I also apologize if I sound condescending in any way. Not intended at all. You should do an analysis on Bisharp next, he's great and not used enough.
    Nah I love debating with you, a lot of people just say "oh OK you sound like you know what you're talking about" and just leave it, this is great. BMGf is one of the best places to discuss Pokémon intelligently and that's one of the reasons I love the (small but growing) competitive battling community here. sharkshocker, Lunacy, AnybodyAgrees, BadAssKoala, JustTheFX, and everybody else know so much more about Pokémon than the semi-competitives I know IRL and everybody is friendly and civil. :) After all, the point of these is to generate discussion! If anybody else is reading this, I encourage you to jump in and voice your opinion either way. Also, Blastoise is next week but Bisharp is definitely coming, she is my signature mon after all. :)


    Choice of words. It's recognized as a strategy that functions, however, it's terrible. This generation is huge on priority moves (Talonflame: Gale Wings, Lucario: Extreme Speed, Genesect: Extreme Speed, Aegislash: Extreme Speed, Scizor: Bullet Punch, Prankster, Mega-Pinsir's Quick Attack, Azumarril's Aquajet.) That being said, that's not the point of this post. I'd love to discuss the pros and cons more in a better suited thread.
    I agree that this is a little off-topic, I'll say that my opinion is that it's viable but not optimal. I can totally see where some people think it's trash though.

    Who are you playing against that would leave Mega-Lucario in against Gyrados? Isn't the point there to force a switch, thus dealing more reliable damage via stealth rock when it switches in later?
    When Luke switches back in his Speed will just go back down and the Gyarados can come right back out. Or a Dragonite. Or anything else that goes above 236 Speed, which is a lot. Also, you're right that it would force a switch in a good player, giving you a free turn to Dragon Dance. I would call getting free DDs more valuable than dealing chip damage on switch ins (obviously SR deals more than chip damage to, say, Talonflame, but most teams are built with SR in mind while few can deal with SW to the same extent).
    Hyper offense is another "not so great" strategy that is easily counterable.
    I would call this just plain false. HO is pretty great, especially with Deo-D freed from Ubers as one of the best support mons for HO.


    Again, who are you playing against that would leave any of these in against a Galvantula? you have a team of six pokemon, a competent player would switch out understanding STAB thunder is death. you switch in something that can eat the Thunder and either kill Galvantula or force it to switch out (usually the former, as most players understand how frail he is.)
    My point is exactly that. Nobody would leave these in on or switch them into a Galvantula. So they can't remove your SW while Galv is alive, since it can come in on them, revenge, and re-set the Web if they try, or just 2HKO if they try to switch in (which they wouldn't).

    [quote]
    Defog on forced switches, then. Team View makes predicting switch ins a lot easier than it used to be. If it's clear your opponent is going to set up, you can usually do something about it.

    Defoggers don't force switches. They're pretty much all support mons, they're easy to predict, and they're easy to switch threatening set-up sweepers on. And if they do force a switch, again, Bisharp and to a lesser extent Braviary, Milotic, etc welcome that.

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