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  1. #16
    I Wobb You Sublime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gi-gi-gi-giaru! View Post
    Like I said, don't ban them - place them into tiers.

    And base the tier-placing on what happens within a tier. If one Pokémon gets used too much in a tier, promote it to a higher tier. If one Pokémon gets used too little, demote it to a lower tier.

    And this tier nudging should only happen one tier at a time. Here are the ones that I'd suggest (again, based on Smogon's tiers):

    Ubers (Level 9)
    Over Used, Level 1 (Level 8)
    Over Used, Level 2 (Level 7)
    Over Used, Level 3 (Level 6)
    Medium Usage/Border Line (Level 5)
    Under Used, Level 3 (Level 4)
    Under Used, Level 2 (Level 3)
    Under Used, Level 1 (Level 2)
    Never Used (Level 1)

    Simply put, expand the OU and UU categories, to make the system a bit more dynamic.

    Anyway, I'll give this a provisional UP vote, because I think it has some potential. But if we're dead set on evkl's layout, I'd have to change that to DOWN.
    No idea what the point of 3 OU and UU tiers is. You're going to have to expand on the explanation and purpose of that to me because it makes no sense at all. Plus having 9 sets of tiers is just a pain to moderate and keep track of.
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  2. #17
    Lighting Things on Fire Sarcastically Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sublimε View Post
    No idea what the point of 3 OU and UU tiers is. You're going to have to expand on the explanation and purpose of that to me because it makes no sense at all. Plus having 9 sets of tiers is just a pain to moderate and keep track of.
    Not necessarily OU, that's just what Giaru's using for comparison. For example, it'd be:

    Uber
    ExtremelyUsed
    OverUsed
    UsedOften
    BorderLine
    UnderUsed
    and so on.

    I don't see the point of separating the UU tier much, though.
    Currently writing Hoenn Wars, a Travelsverse fic that needs no prior Travelsverse knowledge to understand. Chapter Seven, Sacrifice, is up.



    That's interesting; I might have a look when I have the time. Thanks!

    EDIT: Oh my god, these are too many links! Very specific...
    ^Someone's first impression of TVTropes.

  3. #18
    Prayers to Oak Creek Angad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    Down, because there are many pokemon that we all know should be banned, namely Deoxys, Darkrai, I'd approved it if the rough draft was better.

    Much love to Zurr

  4. #19
    Flame's the name. Flame_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    DOWN. Just use Smogons, it makes e whole fandom slightly more unified.

  5. #20
    Lighting Things on Fire Sarcastically Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    @Flame Alex: Unified doesn't mean good.

    @Crack: As said, the first month or two might be rough, but after that things will even out. Patience, y'know?
    Currently writing Hoenn Wars, a Travelsverse fic that needs no prior Travelsverse knowledge to understand. Chapter Seven, Sacrifice, is up.



    That's interesting; I might have a look when I have the time. Thanks!

    EDIT: Oh my god, these are too many links! Very specific...
    ^Someone's first impression of TVTropes.

  6. #21
    Prayers to Oak Creek Angad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    But the thing is that I'd personally hardly go on it since it's so broken. So would a lot of people and I don't wanna wait 2 months to play in a Bulbagarden exclusive Tiering System.

    Much love to Zurr

  7. #22
    Lighting Things on Fire Sarcastically Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    I do see your point.

    Maybe automatically put all Smogon Ubers higher up than the standard level?
    Currently writing Hoenn Wars, a Travelsverse fic that needs no prior Travelsverse knowledge to understand. Chapter Seven, Sacrifice, is up.



    That's interesting; I might have a look when I have the time. Thanks!

    EDIT: Oh my god, these are too many links! Very specific...
    ^Someone's first impression of TVTropes.

  8. #23
    I Wobb You Sublime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    5th gen wise? There are at the moment only like 6 Ubers on Smogon...
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  9. #24
    smile Enzap's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    UP

    Anything other than the Smogon system works for me. I think that banning pokemon completely overused is a great idea.

  10. #25
    I Wobb You Sublime's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray o' Sunshine View Post
    I think that banning pokemon completely overused is a great idea.
    You do realize that by doing that, you'll just end up in a endless loop until there is nothing left...
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  11. #26
    is obsessed with Noivern! Zekurom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sublimε View Post
    You do realize that by doing that, you'll just end up in a endless loop until there is nothing left...
    Which is where the tier promotion/demotion system comes from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sublimε View Post
    Plus having 9 sets of tiers is just a pain to moderate and keep track of.
    Technically, it could work with any number of tiers - I was just doing the 9-tier system for comparison, and perhaps a new caveat into the new system.

    And didn't evkl say that the system would be completely empirical? As in, it's possible for it to be automated.
    Last edited by Zekurom; 5th February 2011 at 08:03 PM.
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  12. #27
    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sublimε View Post
    How will this work? We'll eventually run out of good Pokemon if we use this system. Everyone will be stuck using bad NU Pokemon eventually. We need a better banning system then that because despite you not wanting to ban Salamence, this system will eventually ban Salamence. Pokemon shouldn't be banned based on usage imo.
    This I agree with.

    I'd vote up for Bulba's own tier system, but down for the one currently proposed.

    When it said "Empirical" I thought it would actually done with real empirical measurements coming from repeated battles and finding Pokémon which overcentralizes the metagame (then again we're back to smogon tiers aren't we?).

    I mean, I'm all for a tier system that actually splits Pokémon based on their strength (i.e. a power-tier) rather than a usage tier when Gen V rolls around. What's currently proposed seems like a usage tier that bans things based on popularity and not strength.

    nything other than the Smogon system works for me. I think that banning pokemon completely overused is a great idea.
    Ironic that you don't like seeing overused Pokémon, yet you hate the smogon tiers, which split regular tiers up by usage and then create the ban tiers (BL and Uber) based on which Pokémon is broken in their respective usage tier? Have you just, I don't know, tried playing UU instead? OU is "standard" because that's what everyone wants to play, not because Smogon says so. Or at least that's how they were defined, don't know what they're going with at the moment and if they're just using old terminology for the sake of tradition.

    It does seem a bit strange for me to be voting on this since I stopped being active in Competitive battling around the time that the first RMT section was established, but hey, new generation of games, so you never know.

    Vote:
    Up for Bulbagarden's own tier system
    Down for the one that's currently proposed, mostly for the same reasons outlined by Sublime.

    @Flame Alex: Unified doesn't mean good.
    That completely depends on context, and a fandom-wide standard, considering that we don't all live on tiny little islands on the internet, would be best so we don't have people going "That's an uber" and "Not in my tier system". For a real world comparison, think SI units.

  13. #28
    I won't bite... much. SharKing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    UP, but I agree that we need a tiering system with more thought.
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  14. #29
    Revert & Reverberate Miar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    I am not a tier battler, but I agree that one is in order, so UP

    My proposal is to base it on total base stats (use the wiki). If they're:
    -- Over 600 (Mewtwo, Dialga, Arceus, Ho-Oh, etc.) = banned in standard battles
    -- Exactly 600 (Dragonite, Metagross, Mew, Latios/as without Soul Dew) = one allowed per team
    (a Lati with Soul Dew would pass the 600-point marker and be banned)

    Also, I know how much of a pain in the tail Wobbuffet is. Ban Wobbuffet and put Wynaut with the 600-point group

    That's all the farther I've thought on this.

  15. #30
    Lighting Things on Fire Sarcastically Insane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our own tiering system: Empirical Tiers

    Quote Originally Posted by Miar View Post
    I am not a tier battler, but I agree that one is in order, so UP

    My proposal is to base it on total base stats (use the wiki). If they're:
    -- Over 600 (Mewtwo, Dialga, Arceus, Ho-Oh, etc.) = banned in standard battles
    -- Exactly 600 (Dragonite, Metagross, Mew, Latios/as without Soul Dew) = one allowed per team
    (a Lati with Soul Dew would pass the 600-point marker and be banned)

    Also, I know how much of a pain in the tail Wobbuffet is. Ban Wobbuffet and put Wynaut with the 600-point group

    That's all the farther I've thought on this.
    But banning things solely on stats isn't effective. The aforementioned Wobbuffet and Slaking/Regigigas don't fit into this, and what about that have good stats but not the movepool or typing to be effective? What about Pokemon that are utterly broken because of their ability (I'm looking at you, Doryzu)? Stats alone don't make the metagame.
    Currently writing Hoenn Wars, a Travelsverse fic that needs no prior Travelsverse knowledge to understand. Chapter Seven, Sacrifice, is up.



    That's interesting; I might have a look when I have the time. Thanks!

    EDIT: Oh my god, these are too many links! Very specific...
    ^Someone's first impression of TVTropes.

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