Grass, Fire, or Water?

Composer · 11th January 2012, 04:50 PM

Fire. Many Pokemon of this type excel in sp.atk and speed,which suits my preferences.

Grass Type Trainer · 11th January 2012, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kelleo

^Thankfully, many fire types can learn moves like Solarbeam and Grass Knot. Even the Sunny Day + Solarbeam combo. I defeated an opponent's Swampert this way with a Typhlosion online once.

Also, fire is the only thing that can truly damage steel types. Otherwise, they're a pain to defeat (they have high defense, so even a fighting type move won't cut it unless you have a Lucario or something with Aura Sphere), especially if your opponent is a Bronzong. Fire is its only weakness.

That's not entirely accurate. Depending on it's ability, it'll either have and immunity to Ground moves, meaning Fire is indeed its only weakness, or it's Fire weakness gets removed (Heatproof,) leaving Ground as its only weakness.

Also, having a Grass type move in no way makes them 'honorary Grass types' or anything of the sort. It's just coverage. Many Pokemon have coverage. Fire types still play completely differently from Grass types. In fact, Fire types are probably the single most simple type to use in a game. They're all fast and hit hard, that's literally all you have to think about when using them. Defensive Fire types are generally considered poor Fire types for this reason (think Magcargo.)

It takes little skill to master the quintessential Fire type strategy, which is probably one of the reasons why it appeals so much to so many people. Conversely, Grass types are very difficult to master due to their many weaknesses and the many types that resist it. You have to think out of the box when using Grass types, which isn't easy, and is probably in part responsible for their lack of popularity.

Originally Posted by Bouffalant Herdier

I've shocked myself. I've always thought Grass types had too many weaknesses to ever rate highly and usually pick the Fire Starter, but after thinking it through, Grass types are my favourite.

Fire types generally have poor defences and weaknesses to Water and Ground moves, never a good thing. Whilst Water types are better for the most part, there are many of them I hate battling and in general. Grass types, meanwhile, are one of the more intellectual types; to use them effectively requires skill, and overcoming their downfalls is largely satisfying. Gen V has brought many great Grass types to help sweeten the deal: Serperior, Whimsicott, Lilligant, Ferrothorn, etc. Plus, My first ever Pokemon was Bulbasaur.

This pretty accurately describes how I feel about Grass types. They're my favorite type for a reason (water is a nice second though.)

Nice Oscar pic. btw. Personally, I myself am partial to Elincia.

Kelleo · 11th January 2012, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Envoy

That's not entirely accurate. Depending on it's ability, it'll either have and immunity to Ground moves, meaning Fire is indeed its only weakness, or it's Fire weakness gets removed (Heatproof,) leaving Ground as its only weakness.

Actually, Heatproof doesn't give an immunity to fire type moves. It only lessens the damage from them. Also, I don't think ground is ever a weakness of Bronzong's... I always thought fighting and fire were the only types that had an advantage against steel.

Also, having a Grass type move in no way makes them 'honorary Grass types' or anything of the sort. It's just coverage. Many Pokemon have coverage. Fire types still play completely differently from Grass types. In fact, Fire types are probably the single most simple type to use in a game. They're all fast and hit hard, that's literally all you have to think about when using them. Defensive Fire types are generally considered poor Fire types for this reason (think Magcargo.)

I never said having grass type moves made any Pokemon "honorary grass types." I was just saying that fire types can cover their weaknesses pretty well. In generally.

It takes little skill to master the quintessential Fire type strategy, which is probably one of the reasons why it appeals so much to so many people. Conversely, Grass types are very difficult to master due to their many weaknesses and the many types that resist it. You have to think out of the box when using Grass types, which isn't easy, and is probably in part responsible for their lack of popularity.

I never said I liked fire types because they're easy to use or anything either. In fact, I find them difficult to use because many of them have crap or mediocre defenses. Or are like Magcargo as you described. Some, like Charizard, even have the downside of having a 4x weakness (Charizard's being rock, for example), making them even more fragile.

~~Ghetsis-Dennis~~ · 11th January 2012, 05:40 PM

Fire, seeing as there are only a few good grass types and water types to use.

Grass Type Trainer · 11th January 2012, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Kelleo

Actually, Heatproof doesn't give an immunity to fire type moves. It only lessens the damage from them. Also, I don't think ground is ever a weakness of Bronzong's... I always thought fighting and fire were the only types that had an advantage against steel.

Steel types are weak to Ground, Fighting and Fire. This much is fact. Bronzong is part Psychic, which resists Fightning, making Bronzong take neutral damage from Fighting attacks. It's only two weaknesses then become Fire and Ground.

Levitate makes Bronzong completely immune to Ground moves, meaning Fire is it's only weakness. Heatproof doesn't give Bronzong a Fire immunity, but it does lessen Fire damage to the point where it takes the equivalent of neutral damage from a Fire attack, in effect removing the Fire weakness entirely. This means that Heatproof Bronzong are technically only weak to Ground type moves.

I never said having grass type moves made any Pokemon "honorary grass types." I was just saying that fire types can cover their weaknesses pretty well. In generally.

The same can be said with many Pokemon types. Still, the association made with the original poster praising Grass types for the skill required to use them effectively and your comment on Fire types getting Grass moves seemed to imply an attempt to garner the same praise for Fire types, which is inaccurate. If I read your post mistakenly, then I apologize.

I never said I liked fire types because they're easy to use or anything either. In fact, I find them difficult to use because many of them have crap or mediocre defenses. Or are like Magcargo as you described. Some, like Charizard, even have the downside of having a 4x weakness (Charizard's being rock, for example), making them even more fragile.

I never said you did. I said it contributed to the reason so many people like Fire types. They're easy to master. At no point did I explicitly single you out. And every type has a weakness. Fire's tends to be low defenses. In no way does that make them difficult to use. Steels have very little in the way of offensive presence, yet we all know they're a top tier type despite that shortcoming.

Grass, however, has some of the most off the beaten path characteristics in Pokemon (many weaknesses, key strengths, many types resist them, tons of utility and support moves, plenty of different status moves, etc,) which mean they play less linearly than Fire types (summon, outspeed, kill, repeat) and it takes much more ingenuity to master than the rather simple tactics of Fire types.

Do note that simplicity vs complexity is in no way the same as saying bad vs good. Please don't take it that way. Both types have their merits and both have their drawbacks.

PaintedEevee · 14th January 2012, 10:57 PM

I don't pick my starters based on what they can do. :) Mainly, because if I am going to fully evolve it (which I have always done so far) I want to like what I'm getting. Like, Cyndaquil. That was my first to ever get on a Pokemon capture game. I personally liked the evolutions the most. I had actually no clue what it could do at all. X3 I, personally, didn't like the other two as much.
So, basically I pick what I like most.
But, if I couldn't do that (like if all the starters I didn't like) I would choose the fire type. Fire is my favorite type and most of my favorite starters are fire. So, basically, I would choose that.

Also, just something random I thought of while typing this;
My Typhlosion, Flame, doesn't follow the rule about water beating fire. X3

amethystGoblin · 14th January 2012, 11:00 PM

Water. Generally Water-types are more useful than Fire and Grass types for both offense and defense. They also tend to have better designs IMO.

~ Z ~ · 16th January 2012, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis

Fire, seeing as there are only a few good grass types and water types to use.

...Wait WHAT?! O__O

I get this is your opinnion but....There's over 100 water types
and it has been paired up with allmost all types...Surely you can find good ones in that group?

For example:

For the end I'd like to state again that I understand that this was just your opinnion.
But it doesn't mean I shouldn't defend my own opinnion a bit, right?

~~Ghetsis-Dennis~~ · 16th January 2012, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by ~ Z ~

...Wait WHAT?! O__O

I get this is your opinnion but....There's over 100 water types
and it has been paired up with allmost all types...Surely you can find good ones in that group?

For example:

For the end I'd like to state again that I understand that this was just your opinnion.
But it doesn't mean I shouldn't defend my own opinnion a bit, right?

That's my point. Those are the only water types who are good in battle, the rest somewhat mediocre (Seaking, Luvdisc, Basulin, etc).

Grass Type Trainer · 16th January 2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis

That's my point. Those are the only water types who are good in battle, the rest somewhat mediocre (Seaking, Luvdisc, Basulin, etc).

Actually,

Those are all some useful to excellent and devastating Water types in their respective tiers.

I didn't include Keldeo because technically, it's unreleased as of right now, but you can just go ahead and add him to the list unofficially, as it looks to be another excellent Pokemon.

As far as Grass types are concerned,

Those all range from nice to have to fantastic in their respective tiers as well. Definitely not dead weight in a team.

Conversely, the number of useful Fire types pretty much boils down to:

The least of the three groups.

Sure, Fire may have the coolness factor going on for it, but Water is, competitively, the best of the three and Grass has some fantastic utility (not to mention the ability to counter certain key threats, Water itself among them.) Fire only has raw power (which Dragon does better anyway) and a nifty SR weakness. All in all, you'll find more useful Grass/Water types than you'll find Fire types. I admit though, part of the problem is due to the lower number of Fire types in general, but the point still stands regardless.

Celebii151 · 16th January 2012, 12:05 PM

Water, because it is the most balanced. Plus it has Oshawott, Mudkip and Squirtle.

Water Types haves loads of HP and Sp. Defd, but can still deal a fair hit with decent Sp.Atk.

~~Ghetsis-Dennis~~ · 16th January 2012, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Envoy

Actually,

False, Lanturn and Quagsire aren't very good Pokemon no matter how many times you try to prove it. They got screwed with their base stats. Keep in mind that Water has the most reps out of all types, hence why I meant most of them are going to be mediocre with only a few good ones.

As far as Grass types are concerned,

Why did you have to include Exeggutor, Meganium, Jumpluff, Cacturne, Abomasnow, Liligith, and Serperior when they prove my point about mediocre Grass types (whether it's poor movepools or numerous weaknesses)?

Conversely, the number of useful Fire types pretty much boils down to:

Why did you include Flareon and Entei when they're both on the same league as Macargo and Torkoal? And Typholsion's only niche is Eruption; otherwise, it has no way to raise its physical attack to abuse anything else.

Also, respective tiers mean nothing if they aren't capable enough in OU battles.

amethystGoblin · 16th January 2012, 01:09 PM

-Ninetales
-Charizard
-Moltres
-Arcanine
-Typlosion
-Houndoom
-Entei
-Ho-oh
-Blaziken
-Infernape
-Rotom-H
-Victini
-Darmanitan
-Chandelure
-Valcarona
-Reshiram
-Heatran

17. That's the amount of Fire types that are RU or above, if I am correct.

-Blastoise
-Poliwrath
-Cloyster
-Kingdra
-Starmie
-Gyarados
-Vaporeon
-Feraligatr
-Azumarill
-Politoed
-Suicune
-Swampert
-Sharpedo
-Crawdaunt
-Milotic
-Kyogre
-Empoleon
-Manaphy
-Tentacruel
-Slowbro
-Qwilfish
-Ludicolo
-Gastrodon
-Palkia
-Jellicent
-Omastar
-Kabutops
-Rotom-W

Those are the amount of water types that are RU or above, if I am correct. 28.

So, about 25% of all Water-types are RU or above.

And about 35% of all Fire types are RU or above.

Granted, I also included NFE Pokemon in this number, but percentage-wise there really aren't many more viable Fire-types than Water types.

Sorry if I made any mistakes. I would do Grass, but I'm lazy. ^^;

Grass Type Trainer · 16th January 2012, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis

False, Lanturn and Quagsire aren't very good Pokemon no matter how many times you try to prove it. They got screwed with their base stats. Keep in mind that Water has the most reps out of all types, hence why I meant most of them are going to be mediocre with only a few good ones.

Why did you have to include Exeggutor, Meganium, Jumpluff, Cacturne, Abomasnow, Liligith, and Serperior when they prove my point about mediocre Grass types (whether it's poor movepools or numerous weaknesses)?

Why did you include Flareon and Entei when they're both on the same league as Macargo and Torkoal? And Typholsion's only niche is Eruption; otherwise, it has no way to raise its physical attack to abuse anything else.

Also, respective tiers mean nothing if they aren't capable enough in OU battles.

Now you see, this isn't only false, it's also close to insulting.

I included those Pokemon because respective tiers do mean something. OU is not, never was and never will be the only metagame that matters in Pokemon. Many players actively hate OU and prefer playing in other tiers. Remember, the environments are different for every tier. For example, the OU tier has Chansey and Blissey in it, meaning that most special attackers are useless in that tier. It's not that they're bad, it's that the presence of those Pokemon limits their usefulness. In the same vein, OU is filled to the brim with Volt-Turn and Weather. If a Pokemon doesn't fit or counter that mold, it is essentially dead weight in OU. It's not bad, it's just that the OU metagame isn't kind to it.

I included the likes of Lilligant, Typhlosion and Charizard because in RU, they're monsters (on par with legendary Pokemon such as Entei)

Quagsire counters Rain brilliantly but it's outclassed by Gastrodon, which is why one is OU and the other isn't. The fact that Gastrodon can do it better in no way means Quagsire is a poor counter to rain.

NU has it's fair share of useful and useless Pokemon too. Serperior, Exeggutor, Gorebyss, Swellow, and Magmortar are top tier NU Pokemon. Conversely, Lumineon, Beautifly, Dustox and Wormadam are crap.

The Pokemon metagame exists beyond the OU and Uber tiers.

ghaskan · 16th January 2012, 03:00 PM

I don't metagame, I only had a few competitive battles (from which I learned the tier terms, which have changed again anyway). I mostly do my battles against NPCs and, I must say, Fire is limited as heck.

Yes, Emboar is my favourite Pokémon. Yes, I like Fire-Types. However, in battle they are outright boring; they are burst attackers, and little more (I'm generalizing, but I'm not even sure if there are exceptions...)

Water and Grass-types, on the other hand, can be so much more. They can support, they defend, they can attack. They are versatile and that makes them fun to use. To me, that matters more than tiers ever will.

Choosing between the two of them isn't easy, I wish this was a multiple-choice poll. :P

I like Grass-types a lot, but I use Water-types more... Still, for lack of better I'll take my decision down to trivial matters and chose Grass-types simply because green is my favourite colour. Hurrah!

Poll: Grass, Fire or Water. which one you like :)

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