Thread: Empoleon vs Serperior

Jalorda.It will forever be the best.

Jalorda is cuter, now that I know it's not a gothic rendition of the other two.

A 50-50 split before I voted? Wow.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

what about avalanche? Avalanche's base power double after getting hit. Is base power would go form 60 to 120, although the Royal Bird does lose a bit with physical attack rather then a Special Attack.

Avalanche only doubles if the attacker is hit, so with that in mind, let's calculate the damage as if Empoleon had maximised his attacking potential (Adamant (+Atk/-SpAtk), 252 Attack EVs, Choice Band):

Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda uninvested: 58.4% - 69.4%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda uninvested: 116.8% - 138.1%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 37.9% - 44.6%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 75.1% - 88.7%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 39.5% - 46.9%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 78.5% - 92.7%

There you have it, Jaroda is able to survive Empoleon's attacks, even when Empoleon attacked, so Jaroda is safe if he invests in defence. Too bad Jaroda wasn't able to set up Substitute, though...note that Avalanche always go last, so Empoleon cannot use Choice Scarf in hopes to get the jump. What can Jaroda do to Empoleon in that case? If Empoleon fully invested in Attack, then the best he can do against Jaroda is to invest in HP and Special Defence. But this time, Jaroda carries Choice Specs because Empoleon can never outspeed Jaroda, no matter what his investment is (and the fact Jaroda will not have a -Speed Nature), and Jaroda isn't even investing in Special Attack, and also assuming Perversity is the ability.

Damage received against Empoleon (4 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs): 45.5% - 53.5% (+2: 90.3% - 106.5%)
Damage received against Empoleon (252 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs, +SpDef Nature): 34.1% - 40.6% (+2: 68.5% - 80.6%)

That's a lot of damage there! The boost from Choice Specs help, of course, and so with that, on the physical side, Empoleon also has no chance of winning unless, like before, he gets lucky. As for Drill Peck, If Avalanche isn't capable of even KO-ing Jaroda first, it's obvious Drill Peck cannot do the same, and even if Empoleon is faster, Drill Peck cannot 2HKO (because no Choice Band boost), so Jaroda's the winner, unless, once again, Empoleon gets lucky. That's to say Empoleon is always at a disadvantage if he goes Physical.

Thanks for reading.

Empoleon. At least he has arms and legs. I just don't like a snake as a starter.

Empoleon can eat babies

Jalorda: YEAH I HAVE ANTAGONIST LEAF STORM WHAT NOW BIT-
*Empoleon Ice Beams Jalorda*
Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Arc Blader

Jalorda: YEAH I HAVE ANTAGONIST LEAF STORM WHAT NOW BIT-
*Empoleon Ice Beams Jalorda*
Simple as that.

Uh...

Yeah. It's odd that people are giving Empoleon the benefit of credit here just because of his access to Ice Beam. If you are wondering, the calculations I got are as follows:

Quote:

Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Neutral Jaroda uninvested = 73.5% - 86.6%
Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda with 252 HP & 252 SpDef = 42.9% - 50.8%
From the calculations, we can see that some people are overestimating Empoleon's offence, as unless Empoleon increases his Special Attack or switches to Blizzard, more damage is dealt. Of course, the attack is very hefty, so the second question comes in: who's faster? Empoleon's Base Speed is 60, and Jaroda's is 113. That's obvious, isn't it? Jaroda gets 2 attacks against Empoleon's 1. Let's see how much Jaroda does with Leaf Storm (assuming Perversity is on):

Quote:

Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Neutral Empoleon uninvested = 51.5% - 60.5% (+2 = 101.9% - 120.4%)
Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Empoleon with 252 HP & 252 SpDef = 30.6% - 36.3% (+2 = 60.8% - 71.8%)

(For the same Empoleon who tries to KO Jaroda...)
Calm (+SpDef/-Atk) Jaroda's Leaf Storm with 252 SpAtk EVs -> Modest (+SpAtk/-Atk) Empoleon's Ice Beam with 252 HP & 4 SpA = 42.2% - 50% (+2 = 84.1% - 99.5%)
In this cases, Empoleon had a fair (not guaranteed) shot in winning the fight if he maxes his defences and if he's packed Choice Specs (Life Orb doesn't count because he would lose). But the same offensive Empoleon trying to take Jaroda down would lose for sure. Empoleon would then had to rely on luck to win, which are Leaf Storm misses, critical hits and Ice Beam freezing.

That was why I think Jaroda had the advantage in a fight against Empoleon, because of Speed and powerful Leaf Storms. It would probably not be the same case if Blizzard is used, but since no one says Blizzard, my point stands that Ice Beam is not enough to take on Jaroda.

Thanks for reading.

Avalanche only doubles if the attacker is hit, so with that in mind, let's calculate the damage as if Empoleon had maximised his attacking potential (Adamant (+Atk/-SpAtk), 252 Attack EVs, Choice Band):

Quote:

Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda uninvested: 58.4% - 69.4%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda uninvested: 116.8% - 138.1%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 37.9% - 44.6%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 252 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 75.1% - 88.7%
Damage not received (Base 60) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 39.5% - 46.9%
Damage received (Base 120) against Jaroda (252 HP EVs, 208 Def EVs, Bold (+Def/-Atk)): 78.5% - 92.7%
There you have it, Jaroda is able to survive Empoleon's attacks, even when Empoleon attacked, so Jaroda is safe if he invests in defence. Too bad Jaroda wasn't able to set up Substitute, though...note that Avalanche always go last, so Empoleon cannot use Choice Scarf in hopes to get the jump. What can Jaroda do to Empoleon in that case? If Empoleon fully invested in Attack, then the best he can do against Jaroda is to invest in HP and Special Defence. But this time, Jaroda carries Choice Specs because Empoleon can never outspeed Jaroda, no matter what his investment is (and the fact Jaroda will not have a -Speed Nature), and Jaroda isn't even investing in Special Attack, and also assuming Perversity is the ability.

Quote:

Damage received against Empoleon (4 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs): 45.5% - 53.5% (+2: 90.3% - 106.5%)
Damage received against Empoleon (252 HP EVs, 252 SpDef EVs, +SpDef Nature): 34.1% - 40.6% (+2: 68.5% - 80.6%)
That's a lot of damage there! The boost from Choice Specs help, of course, and so with that, on the physical side, Empoleon also has no chance of winning unless, like before, he gets lucky. As for Drill Peck, If Avalanche isn't capable of even KO-ing Jaroda first, it's obvious Drill Peck cannot do the same, and even if Empoleon is faster, Drill Peck cannot 2HKO (because no Choice Band boost), so Jaroda's the winner, unless, once again, Empoleon gets lucky. That's to say Empoleon is always at a disadvantage if he goes Physical.

Thanks for reading.

Winstein gave an EXTREMLY Detailed post about how Ice-Beam won't cut it... Empoleon loses...

I like Jarolda's design :)
Also I remember choosing Piplup as my starter and later being a bit frustrated...

Jalorda will destroy Empoleon.

And stop with this smug crap!!!

I'm counting on Jalorda to help me through Unova. Never found Empoleon that useful in story.

Originally Posted by Steel_Justice

I'm counting on Jalorda to help me through Unova. Never found Empoleon that useful in story.

I only used Empoleon for surfing, and that's where it's usefulness ended.

I'm going with Empoleon. Being part Steel, there would be some little resistance against Jalorda's grass moves and also counting Jalorda's lower attack stats. Most of Jalorda's movepool are special type, Empoleon has a high Sp. Def but on Defense, not so. Speed and defense may be the advantage Jalorda has against Empoleon but I reckon Empoleon would still outlast Jalorda and take it out anyway with either ice beam, drill peck and etc etc etc

Empoleon. It's my favorite water starter PLUS it's part steel!

Jalorda has a nice design but...I'm not very fond of grass types.

Empoleon. Not only is it my favorite Sinnoh and Water starter, but it also has many advantages that Jalorda doesn't have. In a fight, Empoleon would most likely win too.

Originally Posted by Torterra91

I only used Empoleon for surfing, and that's where it's usefulness ended.

Hydro Pump/Hydro Cannon, Flash Cannon/Steel Wing are helpful in the Frontier or Wi-Fi. Not to mention it can learn most of the HMs. Surf, Strength, Rock Smash, Defog, Waterfall, Rock Climb, Cut... all of them but Fly.

Empoleon has a much better design and typing. It is my favourite pokémon from Sinnoh tied with Rhyperior.
But Samurott can eat both at the same time. /fan