Thread: Charizard vs Blaziken

Good to know people like ^ can make thier opinions without ignoring all logic, kinda like what Ranger Jack Walker mentioned.

Originally Posted by Ranger Jack Walker

Originally Posted by Saiga

Envoy, in every single one of your scenarios you assume the Blaziken player knows exactly what the Charizard player is going to use, so you're not really proving any point.

Thats because Charizard, like Blaziken now, is way too easy to predict.

In Blaziken's case however, you need to have a counter or all that prediction does't count for anything.

Did some Damage Calcs.

Lets assume that both players know what they are facing and have specially prepared their Pokemon for the battle.

If we go with physical Charizard:

EVs:
Attack-252
Speed-252

Using Fly on:

Defensive Blaziken HP-252
Defense-252
(Since I know I'm up against a Physical Charizard

Damage taken: 77.5-91.2% Fails to OHKO. The same Blaziken does 196.6-231.6% damage. OHKO.

Keep in mind thats Blaziken with 0 attack EVs.

Special Charizard
EVs:
Sp.Attack-252
Speed-252

Uses Air Slash on:

Special Defensive Blaziken
Sp.Defense-252
HP-252

Damage taken: 74.6-90.7% Fails to OHKO. Blaziken OHKOs again with Stone Edge(196.6-231.6% damage).

So an Offensive Charizard will always lose to a Defensive Blaziken.

Lets reverse the situation and have Blaziken be Offensive and Charizard be Defensive.

Once Blaziken inevitably outspeeds Charizard, it OHKOs with 151.1% - 178.9% damage.



So yeah, Charizard's never gonna beat Blaziken if both players know what their up against.

Since no self respcting Blaziken is gonna be Defensive and no Charizard worth its skin is gonna have Fly, the battle pretty much boils down to this:

Blaziken used Protect!
Charizard used Air Slash!
Blaziken protected itself!
Blaziken used Stone Edge!
Its Super Effective!
Charizard fainted!

U mad bro?

Now, I was surfing this thread out of boredom when I come along this. It is very respectable that you used calculations to convey your point instead of just babbling "Stone Edge OHKO" or "Air Slash OHKO". However, I notice that while you have a Charizard's Air Slash go up against a defensive Blaziken, Blaziken is usually used as an offensive sweeper, having EVs in mostly Speed or Attack (for things such as HJK and Stone Edge). So, how would a Blaziken, offensively oriented, stand up to an offensively oriented Charizard's Air Slash, if the Blaziken (for some reason) doesn't use Protect?

Also, I vote Blazikens, because it was my first starter (Ruby was my first), and it doesn't afraid of anything (which might seem contradictory to my above statement but I mean this for the sake of a good challenge :D). Charizards are also cool, but they just can't compete.

EDIT: Didn't see that you already included the fact about no one using a defensive Blaziken, so I was more specific and just added the Air Slash after Charizard.

Charizard is objectively better.

Originally Posted by patto_man

Charizard is objectively better.

Do you even know what objectively means?

Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices
Based on observable phenomena; presented factually

Charizard is not better that Blaziken from an objective point of view. It is far inferior. Go check out the last half a dozen pages to see why.

Originally Posted by Rigel

Originally Posted by Ranger Jack Walker

Originally Posted by Saiga

Envoy, in every single one of your scenarios you assume the Blaziken player knows exactly what the Charizard player is going to use, so you're not really proving any point.

Thats because Charizard, like Blaziken now, is way too easy to predict.

In Blaziken's case however, you need to have a counter or all that prediction does't count for anything.

Did some Damage Calcs.

Lets assume that both players know what they are facing and have specially prepared their Pokemon for the battle.

If we go with physical Charizard:

EVs:
Attack-252
Speed-252

Using Fly on:

Defensive Blaziken HP-252
Defense-252
(Since I know I'm up against a Physical Charizard

Damage taken: 77.5-91.2% Fails to OHKO. The same Blaziken does 196.6-231.6% damage. OHKO.

Keep in mind thats Blaziken with 0 attack EVs.

Special Charizard
EVs:
Sp.Attack-252
Speed-252

Uses Air Slash on:

Special Defensive Blaziken
Sp.Defense-252
HP-252

Damage taken: 74.6-90.7% Fails to OHKO. Blaziken OHKOs again with Stone Edge(196.6-231.6% damage).

So an Offensive Charizard will always lose to a Defensive Blaziken.

Lets reverse the situation and have Blaziken be Offensive and Charizard be Defensive.

Once Blaziken inevitably outspeeds Charizard, it OHKOs with 151.1% - 178.9% damage.



So yeah, Charizard's never gonna beat Blaziken if both players know what their up against.

Since no self respcting Blaziken is gonna be Defensive and no Charizard worth its skin is gonna have Fly, the battle pretty much boils down to this:

Blaziken used Protect!
Charizard used Air Slash!
Blaziken protected itself!
Blaziken used Stone Edge!
Its Super Effective!
Charizard fainted!

U mad bro?

Now, I was surfing this thread out of boredom when I come along this. It is very respectable that you used calculations to convey your point instead of just babbling "Stone Edge OHKO" or "Air Slash OHKO". However, I notice that while you have a Charizard's Air Slash go up against a defensive Blaziken, Blaziken is usually used as an offensive sweeper, having EVs in mostly Speed or Attack (for things such as HJK and Stone Edge). So, how would a Blaziken, offensively oriented, stand up to an offensively oriented Charizard's Air Slash, if the Blaziken (for some reason) doesn't use Protect?

Also, I vote Blazikens, because it was my first starter (Ruby was my first), and it doesn't afraid of anything (which might seem contradictory to my above statement but I mean this for the sake of a good challenge :D). Charizards are also cool, but they just can't compete.

EDIT: Didn't see that you already included the fact about no one using a defensive Blaziken, so I was more specific and just added the Air Slash after Charizard.

Firstly why wouldn't blaziken use protect? He has speed boost and that free boost is gonna make him outspeed zard. When blaziken was not banned, all of them run sd/protect/flare blitz/hjk.

Secondly, RJW is clearly pointing out that in a 1 vs 1 scenario, blaziken always wins. If i was supposed to battle 1 vs 1 and i knew that my opponent is gonna use charizard, i would simply use a defensive blaziken. No matter what the scenario, ken defeats zard.

Finally, as far as a general scenario is concerned like 6 vs 6, ken is Ubers and charizard is NU. That pretty much sums it up.

To be honest. It really depends on the moveset. Because if the said Charizard knows Dragon Dance. This battle is over before it begins. If the Charizard trainer knows what he's doing. It could end up 50/50. BECAUSE
Charizard uses Dragon Dance
Charizards Attack and Speed Rose!
Blaziken Uses Protect
Blazikens speed rose
THIS IS THE CRUCIAL BIT
Blaziken uses protect (Assuming the trainer gathers that the Charizard will attack)
If it fails, the Charizard will use air slash. OHKOing the Blaziken with the offensive boost he gained earlier. But if the protect works the Blaziken will become faster than Charizard. Knowing this, the Charizard trainer would probably withdraw Charizard. If they can't Blaziken will use Stone Edge to OHKO Charizard.

TO CONCLUDE
If said Charizard has Dragon Dance, the battle is pretty even. Since Blaziken will DEFINETLY use protect first time knowing it's against a Charizard. It all depends whether the Protect works a second time in a row.
BUT, if the Charizard doesen't have Dragon Dance. It's pretty pooed.

Personally, my Charizard has Dragon Dance. Just to deal with pesky Blazikens. Obviously there is no definite outcome to the duel, it just depends on the Charizard and/or Blaziken.

Originally Posted by Charraze

To be honest. It really depends on the moveset. Because if the said Charizard knows Dragon Dance. This battle is over before it begins. If the Charizard trainer knows what he's doing. It could end up 50/50. BECAUSE
Charizard uses Dragon Dance
Charizards Attack and Speed Rose!
Blaziken Uses Protect
Blazikens speed rose
THIS IS THE CRUCIAL BIT
Blaziken uses protect (Assuming the trainer gathers that the Charizard will attack)
If it fails, the Charizard will use air slash. OHKOing the Blaziken with the offensive boost he gained earlier. But if the protect works the Blaziken will become faster than Charizard. Knowing this, the Charizard trainer would probably withdraw Charizard. If they can't Blaziken will use Stone Edge to OHKO Charizard.

TO CONCLUDE
If said Charizard has Dragon Dance, the battle is pretty even. Since Blaziken will DEFINETLY use protect first time knowing it's against a Charizard. It all depends whether the Protect works a second time in a row.
BUT, if the Charizard doesen't have Dragon Dance. It's pretty pooed.

Personally, my Charizard has Dragon Dance. Just to deal with pesky Blazikens. Obviously there is no definite outcome to the duel, it just depends on the Charizard and/or Blaziken.

Firstly, Charizard doesn't use Dragon Dance. Not usually anyway.
Secondly, you assume that Blaziken will always use protect first but allow Charizard to be a bit varied.
Turn 1: You say that Charizard should use Dragon Dance assuming that Blaziken will always go for Protect first. Well, I'm gonna predict that and use Swords Dance.
Turn 2: I go for protect this time. You predict that protect as well and go for another Dragon Dance. However, I Predict this second Dragon Dance and just attack instead of going for Protect and kill Charizard. But you predict that I would go for an attack so you attack first instead and since due to you DD, Charizard is still faster and kills Blaziken. I predict that and use protect.

Or rather, when Charizard first uses Dragon Dance, Blaziken just uses Stone Edge and OHKOs it.

This outpredicting goes on forever and so does this debate.

As I said, Charizard rarely uses Dragon Dance because Physical Attacks are just not its thing. Just for the sake of simplicity, the battle pretty much boils down to Blaziken protecting itself for one turn and then OHKOing back with boosted speed.

OHKOing the Blaziken with the offensive boost he gained earlier

By the way, Air Slash will not gain an offensive boost from Dragon Dance. I could predict this and use a defensive Blaziken which will survive an unboosted Air Slash from a special attacking Charizard and still manage to OHKO back. But again, prediction wars never end.

1 vs. 1 Blaziken can almost always come out on top vs a Charizard, most people use special Charzizards anyways so... Aside from that, Blaziken also happens to actually be useful in other tiers with speed boost, Hi-Jump-Kick, Flare Blitz and Protect. I must say Charizards NU for a reason (stealth rocks, not that fast, nonexistent bulk, etc.) Besides, the ability to boost your speed without even trying is pretty amazing and should serve as a testament to show just how far Blazikens gone since the last couple generations.

@Charraze Who uses Dragon Dance and Air Slash on the same set?

@Grass Type Trainer
Me. And it works very well.

Originally Posted by Charraze

@Grass Type Trainer
Me. And it works very well.

You're wasting that attack boost. Even if you are going unpredictability, unboostrd Air Slashes just aren't powerful enough even in NU.

...wouldn't an Aerial Ace hit harder after a Dragon Dance anyway? So why use Air Slash?

And why use Arial Ace when Charizard learns Earthquake? Arial Ace gives redundant coverage with Fire moves.

Originally Posted by CommandurrClowncrete

And why use Arial Ace when Charizard learns Earthquake? Arial Ace gives redundant coverage with Fire moves.

Well I wouldn't know what physical moves to run because their is no way in hell I'd run a physical Charizard moveset. :P

Originally Posted by Saiga

Well I wouldn't know what physical moves to run because their is no way in hell I'd run a physical Charizard moveset. :P

Hey, hey! Do you remember that Belly Drum set people used back in Gen IV? Me neither.