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Thread: Writer's Workshop General Chat Thread

  1. #3991
    Platypus Saleswoman Ahnyo's Avatar
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    I wonder if it's the right decision for me to be posting my works online... first and foremost, I'm not looking for attention; I just want to let some thoughts out. Part of me knows that I'm not as talented of a writer as I'd like to be, but at the same time I feel as if I deserve more recognition. I admit that my ego is a bit inflated; I've received heaps of praise from my mom and teachers, who say my abilities are far above my grade level. I put an enormous amount of time and effort into planning my stories, and even though I'm primarily writing them for my enjoyment, it seems like a waste of time. I might as well just keep everything in my head; I write down my ideas because I want to share them, but I hardly ever get any acknowledgment. I'm aware that I do have some dedicated readers, and I'm very grateful for them, but then I look at others' stories and see that they have many more fans. I'm constantly comparing myself to others, and I easily become immensely jealous. It's a crippling vice of mine... it doesn't take much for me to start doubting myself and wondering what I'm doing wrong. What, specifically, turns people away from my writing? How do I become a better author? I can never seem to figure it out, and it just makes me feel worthless and horrible. I have an incredibly low self-esteem along with a slew of mental health issues, and I'd be lying if I said I've never beaten myself up over my writing and lack of recognition so much that it's brought me to tears. Although it provides me with something to do, writing also stresses me out and sometimes contributes to me becoming depressed. I frequently contemplate doing what I did with my art—giving up on it entirely. Maybe I should solely focus on schoolwork, or find a new hobby that doesn't involve competition. I just don't know what to do anymore.



  2. #3992
    Hex Mistress NoirGrimoir's Avatar
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    @Ahnyo; I've been writing and posting fan fiction for about eight years or so, so I think I got this.

    1) If you like it and you enjoy it, then it isn't a waste of time. Period. You shouldn't give something up based on what other people think, especially if it provides you with something positive. Writing in particular is never a waste of time. Maybe you aren't going to get published (but maybe you are), but any kind of writing you do is going to strengthen your writing and communication skills and such skills are extremely valuable and useful in life and the vast majority of professions.

    2) Popularity isn't a measure of whether something is good or not. Reality shows are proof of this. Oscar winning movies are rarely blockbusters, plenty of award-winning books don't top the best-sellers list. Popularity is not a measure of quality. It's just a fact, so just because other stories are popular doesn't mean they are better than your stories, and just because yours aren't as well known, doesn't mean your work isn't as good as there's is. Occasionally something is very popular as well as being genuinely great, but you shouldn't try to trade-in quality or what you want to write, so you can be more popular. That's a disservice to yourself and it's a disservice to all those people out there who want to read what you want to write, not what you think they want you to write.

    3) In my experience, if something is genuinely good then it will find its audience in its own time. Professional writers go to publisher after publisher, getting reject 20, 40, 70 times before they finally get published. Even many now famous and popular novels were rejected over and over for years before they finally got published, and maybe it then took a while after that for the trends to catch up and for everyone to stand up and say, "Hey, this stuff is pretty good!" Sometimes it's just a matter of luck, what gets noticed and what doesn't. Fan fictions in particular, generally wallow in period near the beginning of when they are written when hardly anyone reviews or looks at it, but once you get a certain amount, there's a tipping point and suddenly the views increase exponentially. I haven't read anything you've written, so i don't know what the quality of your work really is, but it's entirely possible that something like this is to blame for your lack of recognition. It could just plain be bad luck or that you aren't presenting your story in a way that draws attention. it could have nothing to do with your writing itself at all.

    4) Some things are popular and great. Some things are less popular, but also great. Romance Novels are incredibly popular. Horror Novels, not so much. Are Horror Novels inherently inferior to Romance Novels? No. Maybe what you are writing isn't a subject that is particularly popular or has a wide appeal, so less people are likely to read it. Again this lack of popularity doesn't reflect the quality of your work. It means your audience is smaller, so naturally you will get comparatively fewer views/reviews/etc than a story that might be from a more popular genre, while your percentage or popularity within the audience you are writing for is actually quite high.

    So basically, if you like writing, keep writing. Not writing popular stories doesn't mean your writing is bad. There are plenty of popular stories that suck-ass, so don't write stuff like that just to be popular. And who gives a shit what other people think anyway. If you work hard, eventually that work will pay off. And so what if you aren't as good as someone else? There's always going to be someone better or more popular, or more whatever than you, anyway. It's not a contest. I REPEAT, LIFE IS NOT A CONTEST! Winning is being happy. It's not being the best at anything. So just do what you want to do. Stressing over things isn't going to help you, it will just make things harder on yourself. When you're stressing and unhappy, you're losing at life. Keep that in mind.

    Official Claimer of the Pokemon Pumpkaboo | Official Claimer of the Move Trick- Or -Treat | Official Claimer of the Items Silph Scope and Odd Keystone.
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  3. #3993
    CEO of the Monsters Lugion's Avatar
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    Default Re: Writer's Workshop General Chat Thread

    @NoirGrimoir; is absolutely right. It's very nice to get attention for your hard work, but it's not a guarantee no matter how much effort you put into it. It sounds horrible, I know. The thought that you could give everything you have and receive nothing in return is not a thought one relishes, but if you don't put your stuff out there, there's no chance anyone will see it.

    I've enjoyed periods of high popularity as an author around here. Those days are past, as much I'm loathe to admit, but I think at least part of it is that the Workshop isn't what it used to be, in terms of traffic, readership, etc. I believe it's all part of a cycle, as I've noticed a lot of the older authors are no longer around (like Ryuu, Legacy, Kayi, and so on), and a lot of the old readers have stopped visiting the Workshop. But I've noticed a lot of new writers and new readers will no doubt follow. We're just in that awkward transition phase between generations.

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    Secret Sword of Justice Kelleo's Avatar
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    Yeah, NoirGrimoir speaks nothing but the truth. Take it from me, I've posted plenty of writing here, but only one little oneshot is actually Pokemon-related. Because of that, I my stuff gets next to no attention unless I use things like the review game or review exchange (which I do, but only on occasion). Yet, I'm still here, posting. I would've left if I simply wanted attention (truth be told, I did actually leave once, but it was for a completely different reason). Of course, it's nice to get a lot of feedback and all and it would be nice to know if any of your viewers are enjoying your work. But you know, even if they don't say nothing, I'm sure at least some of those people like what they read! I think to myself "ooh, this is really interesting!" or something similar all the time and I don't outright say it. I'd love to say it, but I never know what else to put with it. I loathe reviews that just go "this is awesome!" or something and just leave it at that. But I'm not that great of a reviewer or critiquer, and it can sometimes take me forever to figure out what to say. I just think maybe others have the same or a similar issue.

    But you know, you and I have a lot in common. I also sometimes feel jealous when others' work gets more attention than mine and sometimes I feel I deserve more or just as much attention. But I decide that it doesn't really matter, because as NoirGrimoir said, popularity doesn't necessarily equal quality. And as I just mentioned, some of your viewers probably liked your work anyway and just didn't say anything. Another thing we have in common is that I also have a mental disorder and my teachers used to praise my writing skills as well. Particularly my grammar and spelling. Yeah, my ego inflated a bit too, but I also got past that. And I bet you can too. :)

  5. #3995
    Moderator AceTrainer14's Avatar Forum Head
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    Default Re: Writer's Workshop General Chat Thread

    That is the continuous trouble with fan fiction, particularly this forum. Just because you are not getting responses does not mean that your work is in any way lesser to someone else's. Look at series such as Twilight and 50 Shades that were universally panned by critics but still sold millions of copies due to their devoted fanbases. I think that as long as you keep writing and keep trying, you are more likely to get the recognition you deserve, and I would strongly recommend trying stuff like the Review Game to help try and get your stories out there @Ahnyo. Also, hopefully the changes to the Awards will help with situations like this...

    And @Lugion, I think we do have a new generation of writers and readers firmly in place. Even when I first started and those people were around, the majority of my work still went rather ignored. People here do comment still, and we have a lot of new stories quite regularly, but we just need to find ways to encourage people to do more reviewing. There is a mentality that has been around for quite a while where people seem only inclined to review the works of people that comment on their stories as well, even if they are following the series anyway. I think we all need to work our best to move away from that and accept that some people may not have the time to review your work, but that doesn't mean they are undeserving of getting praise as well.

    ^^^^ The GalacticVerse Bibliography (Thanks to Blazaking for Banner) ^^^^

  6. #3996
    Hex Mistress NoirGrimoir's Avatar
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    Like you and Kelleo, I also have mental health issues (Chronic Depression, in my case). While I don't especially have a esteem problems when it comes to writing, I'm in school to be a graphic designer and when it comes to my art I find it incredibly difficult to believe in my own abilities. My teachers have assured me pretty much since I was a little kid that I'm incredibly talented, and even now my university professors tell me the same. It's not that I don't believe them or think they are lying, quite the opposite, I trust their opinion's very much, but paradoxically I have extreme difficulty trusting what they tell me when it's positive statements about my own work, even when everything I believe about them should reinforce the trustworthiness of their opinions. I look at other people's work and I'm convinced it's better than mine, even when it isn't, no matter how much people tell me otherwise.

    But what I have to try to remember, and what you and Kelleo need to remember too, is that since we know that we have these problems, that means we have to keep in mind that our insecurities and lack of esteem is based on a false reality. While the illusion is extremely difficult for us to see through from the inside, we just have to keep reminding ourselves that what we believe isn't necessarily the truth. When it comes to yourself, it's actually very inaccurate, more than likely. Remind yourself about how much you trust those people who are trying to encourage you, how qualified and how knowledgeable, and how objective their opinion of your work is, compared to your own opinion. It's a long road to recovery and at least some doubt is just plain human, but stay positive. It's the best thing you can do for yourself and those who care about you.

    Official Claimer of the Pokemon Pumpkaboo | Official Claimer of the Move Trick- Or -Treat | Official Claimer of the Items Silph Scope and Odd Keystone.
    If you like comedy, check out my fanfic "You Win Some, You Lose Some" (CHAPTER THREE UP!) | For some supplementary art, visit NG's Sketches 'n Stuff!

  7. #3997
    silence and sound MuddyMudkip's Avatar
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    I feel very inspired and encouraged now after reading what you guys have just said. I know I wasn't the one who brought it up/asked, but I want to thank you because it's helped me immensely. Ahnyo literally just put to words what I've been feeling myself (though I have not actually written/posted any of my stories here, I do undergo that sort of depression in other aspects of my life, be it writing or otherwise). I'm glad I thought to read through this thread today; it's proven to be of much worth. xD Hopefully I can stick with this positive attitude and not fall back to the point where I feel like I'm only convincing myself that things would eventually turn out for the better. ^^;;
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    Secret Sword of Justice Kelleo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoirGrimoir View Post
    Like you and Kelleo, I also have mental health issues (Chronic Depression, in my case). While I don't especially have a esteem problems when it comes to writing, I'm in school to be a graphic designer and when it comes to my art I find it incredibly difficult to believe in my own abilities. My teachers have assured me pretty much since I was a little kid that I'm incredibly talented, and even now my university professors tell me the same. It's not that I don't believe them or think they are lying, quite the opposite, I trust their opinion's very much, but paradoxically I have extreme difficulty trusting what they tell me when it's positive statements about my own work, even when everything I believe about them should reinforce the trustworthiness of their opinions. I look at other people's work and I'm convinced it's better than mine, even when it isn't, no matter how much people tell me otherwise.

    But what I have to try to remember, and what you and Kelleo need to remember too, is that since we know that we have these problems, that means we have to keep in mind that our insecurities and lack of esteem is based on a false reality. While the illusion is extremely difficult for us to see through from the inside, we just have to keep reminding ourselves that what we believe isn't necessarily the truth. When it comes to yourself, it's actually very inaccurate, more than likely. Remind yourself about how much you trust those people who are trying to encourage you, how qualified and how knowledgeable, and how objective their opinion of your work is, compared to your own opinion. It's a long road to recovery and at least some doubt is just plain human, but stay positive. It's the best thing you can do for yourself and those who care about you.
    Aaah, this is such excellent advice, NG! It definitely helps me too! ^^

    Also, my mental illness is autism. Though high-functioning. Asperger's Syndrome, to be precise.

  9. #3999
    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    bwuuff. I'm re-reading my oooold attempts at my fanfic to remember which general direction I took, as I want my rewrite to be somewhat similar (though with its own differences) up until Chapter 8ish...

    I can certainly see why people didn't really read, review or give feedback on it. It's kinda hard to read; I do have linebreaks, but my paragraphs aren't properly spaced apart. The sentence structure is admittedly basic and the dialogue doesn't have much going for it. I feel like I did better with my Star Trek fic (based on the fact that I actually had a willing reader, rather than someone basically forced at knifepoint), but hopefully I can raise the bar even further.

    (Hell, if I really wanted to punish myself, I could reread the crap I wrote in high school, jeeezus, that was bad.)

    Anyone else look back at their old works, or even earlier chapters for long, established stories, and just been thoroughly embarrassed at how bad it looks?

    Edit: to contribute to the earlier conversation, I've just about given up getting recognition at this point. I've come to learn that if I'm not posting "off-topic" stuff that very few people would be interested in, I'm posting a generic Pokemon fanfiction on a Pokemon website. It's not exactly going to get high praise. And I'm fine with that; What's important to me is the story told and whether *I* feel I did a good job, nothing else.

    My real father lost his head at King's Landing. I made a choice, and I chose wrong. ~ Theon Greyjoy

  10. #4000
    Platypus Saleswoman Ahnyo's Avatar
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    I've heard these same things time and time again, and while I know they're absolutely true, my mind just can't accept them as fact. I've lost count of how many times I've had this conversation with my mother... sometimes it cheers me up for a little bit, but I always end up returning to pessimism. It fluctuates; I have my ups and downs, and I'm gradually declining into a bad state after weeks of good attitude. That's just the way my brain works; I've tried so many times to see things differently, but it just doesn't work. No matter what I tell myself, I always treat lack of recognition or negative feedback as failure... and I often feel as if praise cannot be trusted, possibly because I had so much false, taunting praise thrown at me in middle school. Perhaps that's why I expect so much... I was picked on and ridiculed constantly when I was younger, and it felt like I couldn't do anything right. I thought maybe I'd be able to awaken a hidden talent by writing and sharing my work, but that's not how the world works. I'm not entitled to anything; I understand this, but at the same time I don't. I've sought help, I've gone to therapy... nothing can change the way I think. It's part of who I am, and that's what makes it so frustrating. It's also what makes me wonder if I should be doing this. There's no way for me to completely convince myself that I should be proud of how I've put so much effort into crafting a story; it only brings me stress and pain, and then I become even more upset with myself once I realize how silly it is to be beating myself up over something as trivial as a Pokemon fanfiction. Regardless... thank you, guys. You might not have been able to get through my stubborn mindset, but it's clear that you've been an inspiration to others. As for me, I still don't know what to do, but I'll most likely keep writing. I've written 75,500 words of this story and 300 pages of notes, and I feel like it's far too late to back out. I know I'd be disappointing the people who do read my work if I were to do that, and I don't think that would be a very good way to show my gratitude. The plot and characters have constantly been on my mind ever since I first developed the concept back in early 2011, and I can't just abandon them even though I sometimes wish they were gone. Ah... this story and I share a rather shaky relationship.

    I've been diagnosed with social anxiety, dysthymia, and ADD, if anyone was wondering. I wouldn't be surprised if I also had an inferiority complex.

    I'd love to participate in the Review Game or anything else that will help me get noticed, but high school (specifically freshman English class... eugh) has taken away my love of reading. It used to be a big hobby of mine, but it's become a chore. I have a whole stack of books that I started reading but couldn't get myself to finish. I really would like to get myself back into reading, and the prospect of getting more attention is a great incentive. Perhaps I'll try once I'm done with all my exams.



  11. #4001
    Your mind is a world AetherX's Avatar Moderator
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    I feel I might actually have something to contribute here, whether you decide to take my advice or not.

    Although I've never been diagnosed with anything, I know exactly what you're talking about when you say that you don't really accept praise at face value. I've had numerous achievements in my life that I worked very hard to accomplish, but in the end they felt empty. Whenever I accomplished something it felt like I had cheated somehow and I didn't really deserve the praise or reward that I was getting. This is especially an issue for me in writing and music, since that's how I spend so much time. Every time I got a compliment on a chapter or the whole story, I kind of blew it off as something they just said as a friend. I yearned for a real emotional reaction and I didn't feel like I was getting it.

    For a while I was got pretty down on myself, feeling that my writing was awful and my stories bland. But after a while, I decided that wasn't really helping. Rather than channeling my disappointment towards angst, I started channeling it towards self improvement. If I couldn't provoke an emotional reaction, which was and is my goal as an artist, then I would have to hone my craft until I could. It took a lot of hard work and time more than anything, but eventually I started to get reviews that really seemed to show engagement in the story and reactions that could no longer be written off as just something someone said to be nice.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is if you're having trouble convincing yourself that you're not a bad writer, instead try channeling those negative feelings towards becoming a better writer.

    Also, the Review Game and Exchange are indeed wonderful tools. A little bit of feedback goes a long way towards boosting your esteem. Even though no one's posted in the Exchange for a while, feel free to hit up anyone on the list.

  12. #4002
    Hex Mistress NoirGrimoir's Avatar
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    Gah, I wish someone would write a pokemon murder mystery or something. For some reason I suddenly want to read one.

    Official Claimer of the Pokemon Pumpkaboo | Official Claimer of the Move Trick- Or -Treat | Official Claimer of the Items Silph Scope and Odd Keystone.
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    silence and sound MuddyMudkip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    bwuuff. I'm re-reading my oooold attempts at my fanfic to remember which general direction I took, as I want my rewrite to be somewhat similar (though with its own differences) up until Chapter 8ish...

    I can certainly see why people didn't really read, review or give feedback on it. It's kinda hard to read; I do have linebreaks, but my paragraphs aren't properly spaced apart. The sentence structure is admittedly basic and the dialogue doesn't have much going for it. I feel like I did better with my Star Trek fic (based on the fact that I actually had a willing reader, rather than someone basically forced at knifepoint), but hopefully I can raise the bar even further.

    (Hell, if I really wanted to punish myself, I could reread the crap I wrote in high school, jeeezus, that was bad.)

    Anyone else look back at their old works, or even earlier chapters for long, established stories, and just been thoroughly embarrassed at how bad it looks?
    We just moved house around a week ago, and during that time I found all these old notebooks of mine from back when I was around ten or perhaps younger. I ended up having quite a good laugh at my terrible writing (compared to now, at least) but at the same time I felt extremely disappointed with myself. I'd been praised by my teachers and other people (some of them even on the internet 'cos I actually had the nerve to post my first Pokemon fanfic back then xD) for that crap - it's very embarrassing to think about, really. I'm almost 14 now, and am hopefully a better and continuously-improving writer, but these old works still do mean quite a ton to me. I guess they show how much I've grown in the past few years, and I could probably learn something from those mistakes to produce better stories in the future; if anything else, they do serve as a nice getaway from stress and school work. XD
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  14. #4004
    Stray Dog Flaze's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: Writer's Workshop General Chat Thread

    Oddly enough while I have seen a lot of RPs about murder mysteries I've never seen an actual fic about them @NoirGrimoir; though that is something interesting.
    @Caitlin; I know how you feel, I swear to god I can't open the files containing my old Pokemon New Generations fic cause...well I just blush and close it while I bang my head against the desk, and now that I think about it I kinda do the same thing with earlier chapters of Dragon's Roar.

    However, this has also a positive feel to it, because by reading your old work and being embarrassed about it you also realize how far you've come from when you first wrote that, so in a way you feel both embarrassment and pride.

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    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyMudkip View Post
    I ended up having quite a good laugh at my terrible writing (compared to now, at least) but at the same time I felt extremely disappointed with myself. I'd been praised by my teachers and other people (some of them even on the internet 'cos I actually had the nerve to post my first Pokemon fanfic back then xD) for that crap - it's very embarrassing to think about, really.
    That's also partly the reason I stopped caring about feedback. Any that I get is sunshine and rainbows no matter how terrible my writing (or hell, my acting performance during school plays) was. Nobody was willing to speak their mind, they just wanted to encourage me to never get better.

    If I were to get any feedback, I'd want biting criticism and nasty reviews. It shows where I need to improve, and it shows that I mattered enough for someone to take the time out of their day to spew hatred and negativity at me. I did something to piss them off, which means I did something right.

    My real father lost his head at King's Landing. I made a choice, and I chose wrong. ~ Theon Greyjoy

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