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  1. #16
    is obsessed with Noivern! Zekurom's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    I've always viewed it as making your own original character, then naming him "Ash" so that the author can ride on the coattails of success, even if the character is nowhere near how Ash acts in other works. It bugs me when I see that, as so much potential feels like it's wasted, especially if the character is much more well rounded and likable than the character they're leeching off of.
    I suppose you could be annoyed at that. But often people don't have that in mind when writing these "OC replacements". Often they believe that they're improving the character, or creating a "new version" of them. (And from what I've seen on my journeys elsewhere, Ash isn't all that likeable in most places. People see his character as corny and stupid. But I understand that this applies to other characters as well.)

    And on another note, "Mary Sue Police" don't have any authority, but they have a dangerous power. They are relentlessly critical of every single nitpick they find, and when that harsh and needlessly negative criticism reaches the author, they more often than not are devastated and quit.
    If they have no authority, they have only as much power as you give them. The problem there is only that a new writer does not know what to expect, and is easily hurt by the Mary Sue Police's criticisms. This is, of course, not the new writer's fault, because she does not know the environment that she is getting into.

    That's why I see a lot of people (and myself as well) walking the fine line of making a believable character who has faults and weaknesses as well as strengths. That way the "Mary Sue Police" can't unleash their fangs and destroy the motivation of the author.
    Well, that's exactly what they want you to do - make those "believable characters" that don't go very far out and strike nerves anywhere. Such characters are their (and perhaps your) perception of a "good character". But if you do it only to avoid the Mary Sue Police, you're letting them control your writing and your perception of a "well-balanced character".

    The problem here is, a new writer will almost never know what kind of fine line that is to walk. And for good reason too - that fine line is an imaginary construct, which becomes ingrained only when drilled into a newbie's head by disgruntled veterans.

    If this is your main reason for "writing good, well-balanced characters", and the Mary Sue Police are the main way to guide people to write as such, then my advice to you is to completely flout their advice. You know the rules, now you can break them. Break them to your heart's content! Write with complete abandon and disregard for those self-styled "authorities on good writing" and show them just how "bad" you can make a character! Then go back and find your own motivation for writing those "good" characters. Often a metal sheet must be bent the other way before it can be straightened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Legacy View Post
    You are right. There's nothing "wrong" per se about it, but what's the point exactly? Like Caitlin said, if you are creating essentially an entirely new character in terms of personality, tendencies, etc., why does the author need to make him/her a "canon" character when for all intents and purposes, he/she is a new character just with a familiar name?
    There is no point - the author just decided to do it. Is there any point in not doing so? Suppose the author just decided to say, "what if" this character was like that?

    You could, of course, respond, "but it's not". But responding "but it's not" to "what if" is sacrificing creativity for faithfulness, which I'd argue should never be done without a more practical reason.

    BTW, I'm not talking about fics where Ash, for example, is 17 years old in a fic and aged significantly since his "canon" self. Obviously, there is more room for artistic liberties in that sort of situation.
    Neither am I, although Ash being 17 years old is one of the "liberties" you could take that people might be opposed to.

    I just find it distracting to read a story that is supposed to be canon where the familiar canon characters are essentially OCs in disguise.
    Personally, I don't find that distracting; what I find distracting is the total lack of detail in most stories.

    You are right though, Zek, it's just my opinion, and there is no "right/wrong" way.
    There is a way that feels "right" and "wrong" to everybody; it is when people disagree to disagree that problems arise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin
    I think the issue is that most people, both authors and readers alike, are afraid to leave their comfort zone. It's kind of devastating to people like me who pour so much effort into crafting original and well though out characters to see them fall flat and largely ignored compared to official characters which are often poorly handled (IE, they don't act in character or ignore facts that have already been established about the character.)
    Unfortunately, most people care only about the "canon" characters and what they get into. Often their line of reasoning is that without using canon characters but using the canon world, your work is just a ripoff.
    Last edited by Zekurom; 4th November 2012 at 03:59 PM.
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    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zekurom View Post
    Well, that's exactly what they want you to do - make those "believable characters" that don't go very far out and strike nerves anywhere. Such characters are their (and perhaps your) perception of a "good character". But if you do it only to avoid the Mary Sue Police, you're letting them control your writing and your perception of a "well-balanced character".

    The problem here is, a new writer will almost never know what kind of fine line that is to walk. And for good reason too - that fine line is an imaginary construct, which becomes ingrained only when drilled into a newbie's head by disgruntled veterans.

    If this is your main reason for "writing good, well-balanced characters", and the Mary Sue Police are the main way to guide people to write as such, then my advice to you is to completely flout their advice. You know the rules, now you can break them. Break them to your heart's content! Write with complete abandon and disregard for those self-styled "authorities on good writing" and show them just how "bad" you can make a character! Then go back and find your own motivation for writing those "good" characters. Often a metal sheet must be bent the other way before it can be straightened.
    I suppose in a way that I am the Mary Sue police then. I like well rounded characters with believable strengths and failures. That's the kind of writing I enjoy to read. Those are the characters that feel the best to me and those are the kinds of characters I try to write. Not because I'm being forced to by invisible fairy police, but because that's just what I like. It's probably what a lot of authors like. It's easy to pile on a bunch of super powers and good fortunes and having nothing to challenge those, because it's lazy writing. When you start putting actual depth to your character, things get much more complicated and display a higher level of thought, polish and care.

    When I was judging in the awards contest, I was faced with this exact situation, and I apologise in advance to Kelleo (if she's still reading this section) for bringing it up. Kelli, the main character... Not only was she described as insanely attractive and beautiful, but she was more skilled than Link at sword fighting and dispatching monsters. She spent almost no effort to send the monsters running or killing them time and time again. She held magical powers, powers that no one else in the world seemed to understand, that she said were difficult to control, yet she was seen constantly using these powers with little effort, like she had been using them for hundreds of years. Kelli had no massive downsides to her character, just positives, unless you want to count her willingness to get into arguments with Link as a negative.

    I found the character extremely boring and distracting to read around. I knew that nothing could ever defeat her because she's the best at everything. I was bored during the parts that focused on her because I could see what was coming a mile away.

    People often say that Mary Sue characters are alright as long as they have impossible challenges ahead of them that are meant to get in the way of their god-like status. I agree with that. If you want your character to be well loved by all, super strong, super fast, etc. Do it as long as you have an adequate challenge for them. Like being forced into a morally complex decision. Do I sacrifice this bus full of nuns dangling off of a cliff to stop the terrorists from blowing up a landmark, or do I sacrifice the landmark and the lives of the innocent to save the nuns?

    Do you know how often I see that? How often I see Mary Sues challenged by impossible odds? Never. I never, ever see it. This isn't just limited to Kelli, or Link, or Mario. They always bulldoze through insignificant threats like an elephant charging through a field of grass. These characters and the situations they're put in are boring to me, and after having read through them for nearly 18 years, I've had enough and have now settled on believable characters that I can relate to, characters who don't always win. Characters who have to make choices in how to react to something. Characters who have to develop and work through their weaknesses to achieve greatness.

    This is why I write believable characters. Or if I do rarely venture into Mary Sue material and give my characters some sort of exceptional skill, I always make sure there's a challenge big enough for them. Something they can't steamroll. This is my way of dealing with the Mary Sue police, but cutting them completely out of the picture and doing things how I want to do them. If it makes them happy, it's a plus, but if it still pisses 'em off, fuck them.

    But, yeah, you're right. It's all opinion. I'll have mine, you can have yours. I'll even fight for your right to keep yours, but I'm just putting mine out for display right now. :P

    My real father lost his head at King's Landing. I made a choice, and I chose wrong. ~ Theon Greyjoy

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    is obsessed with Noivern! Zekurom's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    I suppose in a way that I am the Mary Sue police then. I like well rounded characters with believable strengths and failures. That's the kind of writing I enjoy to read. Those are the characters that feel the best to me and those are the kinds of characters I try to write. Not because I'm being forced to by invisible fairy police, but because that's just what I like. It's probably what a lot of authors like. It's easy to pile on a bunch of super powers and good fortunes and having nothing to challenge those, because it's lazy writing. When you start putting actual depth to your character, things get much more complicated and display a higher level of thought, polish and care.
    While this is true, do you notice how you're giving more positive reasons for writing well-rounded characters? You don't do it to avoid the Mary Sue Police. You do it because it's what you feel that you should do, and to hell with anyone with who would stop you from doing it.

    This is the point I've been trying to discuss with you all along. You don't improve to avoid somebody yelling at you about how you suck. You improve when you yourself feel like it's the right thing to do, and sometimes it just takes somebody to tell you how.

    Secondly, you've been talking about "putting actual depth" to your character, as if any character that simply has flaws tacked onto them as well as good things is suddenly automatically "deeper" than a character without either side. But have you noticed that there are many characters that do have those (and even ones where they're all applied, not the trivial weaknesses like the clumsiness of many a Mary Sue), but do not have any perceivable depth at all? They're still one-dimensional, except now they're both sides of the one-dimensional spectrum rather than just one side (e.g. both the left and right wings of a political spectrum compared to only the left side. It's still an oversimplified, one-dimensional view of the political debate). I'd say implication doesn't entail causation; certainly a "deeper" character often does have weaknesses as well as strengths, but not every character can be made "deeper" just by tacking on strengths and weaknesses.

    When I was judging in the awards contest, I was faced with this exact situation, and I apologise in advance to Kelleo (if she's still reading this section) for bringing it up. Kelli, the main character... Not only was she described as insanely attractive and beautiful, but she was more skilled than Link at sword fighting and dispatching monsters. She spent almost no effort to send the monsters running or killing them time and time again. She held magical powers, powers that no one else in the world seemed to understand, that she said were difficult to control, yet she was seen constantly using these powers with little effort, like she had been using them for hundreds of years. Kelli had no massive downsides to her character, just positives, unless you want to count her willingness to get into arguments with Link as a negative.
    But again, I must emphasize that you are once again trying to split a character into "upsides" and "downsides". It's always been my theory that a character with ups and downs just stuck onto them will make for equally as boring (or "Mary-Sue-ish") a character as one with only ups or only downs. The only reason the character with both is harder to detect is because people have it ingrained to them that a "Mary Sue" is a character with only ups or only downs, and that if a character has both and still seems bad, you're probably just misinterpreting it.

    I found the character extremely boring and distracting to read around. I knew that nothing could ever defeat her because she's the best at everything. I was bored during the parts that focused on her because I could see what was coming a mile away.
    That's fair. A character can be distracting and boring to read because they start to get predictable. I might add once again that correlation is not necessarily causation - often the boring predictableness of a character with "too many upsides" (that I find, anyway) comes from something else - simple inexperience. The new writer is still testing out common archetypes, the like of which you've seen a million times before, which is why it seems boring. (I'm pretty sure that the first time you read a character that you now consider a "Mary Sue", you didn't think it was boring at all.) Couple that with the fact that the new writer often wants to try as many things as they want to in a single story (and does so by cramming them all in), and you get not just a disaster, but a learning experience.

    People often say that Mary Sue characters are alright as long as they have impossible challenges ahead of them that are meant to get in the way of their god-like status. I agree with that. If you want your character to be well loved by all, super strong, super fast, etc. Do it as long as you have an adequate challenge for them. Like being forced into a morally complex decision. Do I sacrifice this bus full of nuns dangling off of a cliff to stop the terrorists from blowing up a landmark, or do I sacrifice the landmark and the lives of the innocent to save the nuns?
    But then it is a weakness of the character. The character has no hard and fast principles that would allow her to make a snap decision. But it would be a weakness of the character to have that trait too, as it would fail elsewhere where the character made a bad judgment because their principles clashed with the principles of society at large. And even then, the character could come off as "Mary-Sue-ish" if she is not criticized by anybody for the decision she does make. Do you see how complicated the characterization process is? It's not all about upsides and insurmountable challenges. Sometimes, you've just got to get a feel for what works with the story.

    Of course, these considerations are nowhere in the league of a new writer, but you must understand that it is never actually that simple, and to try and tell a new author that it is will not make them improve.

    Do you know how often I see that? How often I see Mary Sues challenged by impossible odds? Never. I never, ever see it. This isn't just limited to Kelli, or Link, or Mario. They always bulldoze through insignificant threats like an elephant charging through a field of grass. These characters and the situations they're put in are boring to me, and after having read through them for nearly 18 years, I've had enough and have now settled on believable characters that I can relate to, characters who don't always win. Characters who have to make choices in how to react to something. Characters who have to develop and work through their weaknesses to achieve greatness.
    You and a lot of other authors. Just be advised that you shouldn't berate a new author for writing what you call "Mary Sues", at least inherently. What's important is not the characters themselves, but how they were created, their role in the story, and what happens because of them. To say that "believable characters" are the only characters an author should write is saying too much (although you don't seem to be saying it directly, it seems that you're strongly implying it).

    This is why I write believable characters. Or if I do rarely venture into Mary Sue material and give my characters some sort of exceptional skill, I always make sure there's a challenge big enough for them. Something they can't steamroll. This is my way of dealing with the Mary Sue police, but cutting them completely out of the picture and doing things how I want to do them. If it makes them happy, it's a plus, but if it still pisses 'em off, fuck them.
    Why do you even need to deal with the Mary Sue police? You can write big challenges for big characters without regard for them. It doesn't even need to be a plus if it makes them happy. Such self-styled authoritarians I would be happy to displease and piss off as much as I liked, by writing a character that completely flouts their guidelines.

    But, yeah, you're right. It's all opinion. I'll have mine, you can have yours. I'll even fight for your right to keep yours, but I'm just putting mine out for display right now. :P
    Your opinions are valid and interesting as well. This dialogue has been fascinating and enlightening, as it has revealed more of my own opinion.


    P.S. To be honest, I also dislike stories that involve primarily canon characters, but for a much different reason. It's not so much that they're mistreated, but that they're there in the first place. I don't really like reading about stories that make reference to the actual characters of one's work, just because it feels so much like a spinoff/ripoff of the other work. Of course, I'd never dream of telling them that they should stop writing those stories, because this is only my personal preference and creative fandom tendencies at work.
    Last edited by Zekurom; 13th November 2012 at 09:05 PM.
    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

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    Burqa Swag zakisrage's Avatar
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    Angry Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Getting off the "Mary Sue police" discussion...

    I don['t think no OCs is a problem. But OOC can be very dangerous, especially if it is really ridiculous. One example might be The Draco Trilogy, where Draco Malfoy is portrayed as a woobie who dons leather pants.

    I wrote in my blog about my reaction to a nasty piece of work in the Pokemon section of FF.net that suscribed to the latter - it was the worst fanfic that I had ever read. This Pokemon fanfic portrayed Morty as a rapist and a sexual predator - in the fanfic, he is a bully who tortures Jasmine and threatens to rape her. I was very angry about that, since it is such a disgusting interpretation, and I wrote an angry review telling the writer what I thought of her fanfic.

    Rape fanfiction is also a big problem. Rapefics are everywhere. A lot of bad fanfic writers throw rape around as if it's nothing. Virtually all rapefics are an eyesore. The fanfic that I mentioned earlier, "Celebrian", is considered a rapefic. (To be fair to "Crimson Storm", at least Jasmine's reaction to rape isn't as unrealistic as Celebrian's in her fanfic.)

    I have yet to publish anything to FF.net, but in a way I am a little nervous about it.
    Last edited by zakisrage; 12th November 2012 at 06:38 PM.
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    Registered User Sorrows Solace's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Ergh, Celebrian was disgusting. I find that I get annoyed by needless crack parodies; either in the script format or when there's just a pile of memes and chat speak to serve as humour (the only format that worked was Movies in Fifteen minutes because it was poking fun at different films.) Needless OOC's, badly done canon characters and overly flowery descriptions are just painful to read at times as well. I usually avoid self insert fics because those either cross into Sue/Stu territory or are just boring.

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    is obsessed with Noivern! Zekurom's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by zakisrage View Post
    I don't think no OCs is a problem. But OOC can be very dangerous, especially if it is really ridiculous. One example might be The Draco Trilogy, where Draco Malfoy is portrayed as a woobie who dons leather pants.
    I personally believe that no OOC is inherently ridiculous; some are just harder to handle than others, and lots of people bite off more than they realize they can chew.

    Rape fanfiction is also a big problem. Rapefics are everywhere. A lot of bad fanfic writers throw rape around as if it's nothing. Virtually all rapefics are an eyesore. The fanfic that I mentioned earlier, "Celebrian", is considered a rapefic. (To be fair to "Crimson Storm", at least Jasmine's reaction to rape isn't as unrealistic as Celebrian's in her fanfic.)
    There's a saying in fanfic circles, "don't like, don't read". If you don't like rapefic, then filter them out. If you don't like the fact that rapefic exists, well... that's another matter entirely. Then you're getting into the moral ramifications about portraying reality in fantasy and whether fantasy even reflects reality.

    I have yet to publish anything to FF.net, but in a way I am a little nervous about it.
    I'd be nervous too. Publishing them to such a large site, where lots of scum runs rampant, can be discouraging, and I wouldn't recommend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrows Solace View Post
    Ergh, Celebrian was disgusting. I find that I get annoyed by needless crack parodies; either in the script format or when there's just a pile of memes and chat speak to serve as humour (the only format that worked was Movies in Fifteen minutes because it was poking fun at different films.) Needless OOC's, badly done canon characters and overly flowery descriptions are just painful to read at times as well. I usually avoid self insert fics because those either cross into Sue/Stu territory or are just boring.
    Those "crack parodies" are more likely simply "lazy parodies". In cases like that, it's probably the script format and the memes that make it disagreeable, rather than the parodical nature of the thing.

    And a lot of the problems you identified are more about the motivation for writing such fics in the first place. Some people just want to write a self-insert fic so that they can pretend to be a character. Those will become boring because the author is only writing for herself, not because it is a self-insert. Others use overly flowery descriptions because they really can't think of another way to convey all that information. That becomes painful to read only because the writer doesn't have the ability to make the description flow properly. Both of these problems are problems with how and why the tool is being used, not the tool itself.

    For Want of Spirit (one-shot, 11) <- Here's an extremely (and needlessly) OOC Cyrus/Giratina fic with badly done canon characters I wrote once upon a time back about 1.5 years ago. Tell me what you think.
    Last edited by Zekurom; 13th November 2012 at 12:28 PM.
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    Registered User Sorrows Solace's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Good point, guess that wasn't what your were looking for huh? It is more of the execution of certain writing styles and tropes that irks me.

    I'm probably not as authorized to comment on the OOC'ness of the fic; my knowledge of the characters isn't that strong I just focused on having fun playing the game. I actually do find the fic amusing, the writing is clear and controlled, the ideas are easy to follow. The grammar's pretty good, and there's really nothing about the fic that seems off or terribly annoying.

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    is obsessed with Noivern! Zekurom's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrows Solace View Post
    Good point, guess that wasn't what your were looking for huh? It is more of the execution of certain writing styles and tropes that irks me.
    It's not that it "wasn't what I was looking for"; otherwise I'd simply be trolling for responses that seemed more like what I expected. It's more that I'm trying to really get to the bottom of what really does bother or doesn't bother people about fanfiction or writing in general. Often it's not so much that something is being done at all that irks people; it's that when it is done at all, most people don't do it well, and this makes people start to think that it means that doing the thing itself is bad.

    I'm probably not as authorized to comment on the OOC'ness of the fic; my knowledge of the characters isn't that strong I just focused on having fun playing the game. I actually do find the fic amusing, the writing is clear and controlled, the ideas are easy to follow. The grammar's pretty good, and there's really nothing about the fic that seems off or terribly annoying.
    You don't need to care about "authorization". Simply state it as your opinion, and you should have no trouble. Just don't state your opinion as if it were fact; that's what really gets people up in arms. Personally, even I'm not "authorized" enough to comment on the OOC-ness; I did have the OOC-ness specifically planned, but that's simply because my idea of Cyrus is a "stoic, emotionless jerk with a god complex", and I wanted to change his character. It took two reviewers on PokéCommunity to show me the sheer degree to which I made both Cyrus and Giratina OOC. But apparently my fic drove them so loopy that they loved it in the end.
    Last edited by Zekurom; 13th November 2012 at 08:06 PM.
    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

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    Burqa Swag zakisrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zekurom View Post

    You don't need to care about "authorization". Simply state it as your opinion, and you should have no trouble. Just don't state your opinion as if it were fact; that's what really gets people up in arms. Personally, even I'm not "authorized" enough to comment on the OOC-ness; I did have the OOC-ness specifically planned, but that's simply because my idea of Cyrus is a "stoic, emotionless jerk with a god complex", and I wanted to change his character. It took two reviewers on PokéCommunity to show me the sheer degree to which I made both Cyrus and Giratina OOC. But apparently my fic drove them so loopy that they loved it in the end.
    A little OOC is okay once in a while, but it shouldn't be overdone because it can distract readers. And to people who aren't familiar with the fandom, they might get the wrong impression of the character. (Movie adaptations are full of OOC. The second LOTR is infamous for this because it transformed Faramir into a jerk who was tempted by the Ring.)

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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by zakisrage View Post
    A little OOC is okay once in a while, but it shouldn't be overdone because it can distract readers. And to people who aren't familiar with the fandom, they might get the wrong impression of the character. (Movie adaptations are full of OOC. The second LOTR is infamous for this because it transformed Faramir into a jerk who was tempted by the Ring.)
    I personally think that any readers who are distracted by "too much OOC" should simply mark it down as a fic they don't like, stop reading, and move on to fics that they consider better and more in character that they won't be distracted from.

    As for the "wrong" impression of a character, I'm curious as to how you define that. Different works have different interpretations of a character. How do you figure out which one is the "right" one? Often, even the fandom perception of a character shifts over time, and things that once were considered in character might be out of character the next year.
    Last edited by Zekurom; 22nd November 2012 at 09:47 PM.
    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Well, I'll give you an example of a character giving the "wrong" impression in an adaptation.

    The original Funimation dub of Dragon Ball Z is known for ranging from hilariously inaccurate to decent. Generally, the hilariously inaccurate moments occurred toward the beginning of the series, but I digress.

    After believing himself to have become a Super Saiyan, Vegeta arrogantly attacks Freeza, who is basically the evil overlord of the entire galaxy. It is one of the biggest curbstomps in the entire show. Son Goku, the main character, arrives on the scene just as Vegeta's about to be impaled on Freeza's hand. Goku deflects several of Freeza's chi attacks, proving himself stronger than Vegeta, and Vegeta taunts Freeza that Goku is the real Super Saiyan. Freeza, understandably fed-up with Vegeta's constant blathering, punctures Vegeta's chest with a chi attack, and Vegeta tearfully begs Goku to defeat Freeza.

    Now, in the original, Vegeta is tearing up because his pride is at stake. He talks about how Freeza destroyed all the other Saiyans because he was afraid of them, and that it must be a Saiyan who finally kills Freeza in order for their race (Proud Warrior Race) to be avenged.

    In the dub, Vegeta tears up because of all the horrible things Freeza "made" him do, despite the fact that Vegeta attacked Earth of his own accord, and then, when resurrected by the Dragon Balls, he shows no regret for his actions whatsoever, and even taunts the Namekians (the ones killed by "Freeza and his men", who were also resurrected) that the "missing" village of Namekians aren't around because it was Vegeta that killed them, and he had gone rogue by that point and no longer counted as one of Freeza's men. Not long after, Vegeta stays with Bulma (longer story) and taunts Yamcha, Bulma's then-boyfriend, about how he caused Yamcha's death during the Saiyan invasion of Earth. When Freeza (who didn't actually die) arrives on Earth, rebuilt as a cyborg, Vegeta and the other fighters approach the landing area, and Vegeta continues to taunt them about how he (indirectly) killed them. When Vegeta finally becomes a Super Saiyan three years later, he shows no regard for anyone's life, nearly allowing his own infant son (conceived with Bulma lol) to die, nearly blows up Krillin, and vaporizes a truck driver, all in the name of proving his superiority as a fighter.

    As you can see, Vegeta's line... really doesn't work for the character.

  12. #27
    is obsessed with Noivern! Zekurom's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugion View Post
    As you can see, Vegeta's line... really doesn't work for the character.
    In your case, Vegeta's character is inconsistent with itself due to perhaps a bad choice of adaptation to language; we are talking more about derivative works and adaptations being inconsistent with the "original" [which is usually an entirely separate work] and therefore seen as "out of character". A translation/dub is generally not the sort of adaptation where that happens.

    A more salient example might be the Dark Knight series compared to the original Batman comics. These are two different versions of the characters and comics; which one is taken to be "canon", if a single one at all?
    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

  13. #28
    Beausoleil Jabberwocky's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zekurom View Post
    A more salient example might be the Dark Knight series compared to the original Batman comics. These are two different versions of the characters and comics; which one is taken to be "canon", if a single one at all?
    DC has a clearly-established multiverse in their canon. New Earth (or Earth-0) is the "primary" universe in which the comics take place, while various media adaptations and certain other stories fit into others of the 52 universes DC has. Therefore, both the Batman comics and the Dark knight trilogy are canon to their respective continuities.

  14. #29
    Registered User Caitlin's Avatar
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    DC has a clearly-established multiverse in their canon. New Earth (or Earth-0) is the "primary" universe in which the comics take place, while various media adaptations and certain other stories fit into others of the 52 universes DC has. Therefore, both the Batman comics and the Dark knight trilogy are canon to their respective continuities.


    I think that's the best way to sum up DC comic continuity.

    My real father lost his head at King's Landing. I made a choice, and I chose wrong. ~ Theon Greyjoy

  15. #30
    Beausoleil Jabberwocky's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: What do you find is the biggest single problem with fanfics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caitlin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    DC has a clearly-established multiverse in their canon. New Earth (or Earth-0) is the "primary" universe in which the comics take place, while various media adaptations and certain other stories fit into others of the 52 universes DC has. Therefore, both the Batman comics and the Dark knight trilogy are canon to their respective continuities.


    I think that's the best way to sum up DC comic continuity.
    Hey, DC at least has a more rigid and organized multiverse than, say, Marvel.

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