Official Mary Sue Thread

[Zekurom]

In a world where the entire economy, business place, government and law enforcement is based on Pokemon, the question when concerning the "right" age for trainers to start their journeys is really why they're starting later compared to other kids.

And the explanation for that is usually that the canon is modified so that trainers normally start at 13/14/whatever.

She's quite nice as long as you don't offend her principles. Meaning, don't sling sexist or homophobic trite, and you'll be fine.

Or wonkily written fics, apparently. Or "bad rationalizations for capitalizing Pokémon names". She tends to get pretty worked up over those as well.

Also, "tripe", not "trite".

[Kyuuketsuki]

But then now I'm getting difficult to understand now.

"Mary Sue" is certainly not a good title to place upon a fiction character. Every professional writers just try to avoid making a Mary Sue character.

However, "Fan Fiction" is a category of fiction where the story is based on settings that is already provided, mostly based on backgrounds of some anime, manga, games, movie, video, other novels, etc. (Quote from Wikipedia) Here many backgrounds used by fanfics, especially for the Sci-Fi, Adventure, Fantasy ones, the background settings of the world already forcing the fanfic author to create at least one Mary Sue character, where it will mostly be the protagonist or other main character(s) supporting the protagonist.

So really, if you writing Sci-Fi/Adventure/Fantasy/Mystery or any other genre that is not based on the background of real world of current days, you cannot avoid a Mary Sue character (or a very Mary Sue-ish character) in your fiction.

Also, if you look at many original animes/games/mangas/movies which many facfic was based on, you'll definitely find a Mary Sue in the original series. It just seems like it is just unavoidable, even for the character designers that create those animes/games/mangas/movies which we fanfic writer used to based on.

Special =/= Mary Sue.

If what you're trying to say that because a character has special powers or something that is uncommon or rare in their universe then they are a Mary Sue, then I have to disagree.

If you try to avoid making a Mary Sue character in that sense, you'll end with a main character that is exactly like everyone else in the story, and thus, can be easily replaced.

[Hellion]

Sci-Fi, Adventure, Fantasy ones, the background settings of the world already forcing the fanfic author to create at least one Mary Sue character

No... they don't... The background, settings, etc. have little to do with having a Mary Sue. Every universe, even Sci-fi/Fantasy ones, have rules of physique and chemistry of their own, every universe has social, political, economical structures of their own, will have history, customs, that are typical of that place. Those make the backdrop of your fic and they constitute a sense of what is "normal", what is "expected". Therefore, the more you adhere to those sets of rules and boundaries, the more realistic your character will be in that universe.

[Zekurom]

Special =/= Mary Sue.

If what you're trying to say that because a character has special powers or something that is uncommon or rare in their universe then they are a Mary Sue, then I have to disagree.

If you try to avoid making a Mary Sue character in that sense, you'll end with a main character that is exactly like everyone else in the story, and thus, can be easily replaced.

And yet some anti-Mary-Sue readers have that exact stance.

[The Booty Warrior]

And yet some anti-Mary-Sue readers have that exact stance.

If that's the case, it sounds more of a personal preference to me. If someone prefers a character like that, like perhaps a soldier in an army, then they can just look for stories with character like that.

And then there's Anti Sue.

This beast seems to be the most hated of all Sues, and that's an attempt by an author to avoid writing a Sue in the first place.

It changes how Sues are viewed, because now it seems that it's the plot bias towards the character that make them a Sue, which actually makes more sense considering other Sues are generally easier to swallow.

And on the subject of limtus tests, as someone mentioned earlier, personally I don't think most of them are reliable, since as I mentioned before, a large number of them penalize your character more for traits that it appears the creator doesn't want to see in a character, or they penalize your character even though there might be a good explanation in your fic for why they have that trait.

[Azure Butterfly]

My main charrie is... interesting.

As in

Section 1 - The Name Game

Is the character named after you? (This can be your first name, middle name, or the name you go by in chat or irc.) If so, stop now. Put your pencil (mouse?) down and turn in your test.[10]
DO NOT NAME YOUR CHARACTER AFTER YOURSELF.
DO NOT NAME YOURSELF AFTER YOUR CHARACTER.
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR EXCEPTION IS.

Applies. :3

She's named after me, her last name is Celestia, and she's beastly powerful.

She's also a complete bitch who ignores everyone else and thinks that the people around her are stupid. She only has two or three friends, and about... oh, a crapload of enemies. Three spring to mind right away (easier to remember than her friends O_O). Her enemies aren't evil - they're just assholes. Then again, so is she. She thinks her full name is stupid and will attack anyone who says it.

The main villains like her, but the villians fail at villainry. One of them is a dwarf who is afraid of his own shadow, and the other works herself to exhaustion and is more than a little bit mad.

Most of the conflict doesn't even come from the villains. It comes from the main character driving everyone around her completely insane.

Basically, what I'm trying to get at is this - I think it's possible to have a character with a crapload of Sue traits and still make them tolerable - it's just absurdly hard. Most of the side characters either hate my charrie or ignore her. Romantic stuff doesn't really come into play, and the villains, while they might have a soft spot for her, still won't stop their evil plans just because she puts on a cute face. HOWEVER, my fic is constantly being derailed by my charrie whining about everyone around her. She's a complete pessimist, and while this is supposed to make her "less Sue-like" according to some people, that is not the case at all. I love her, but I want to SHOOT her when reading one of the rants. >:( I'm not the greatest writer, but I have a decent amount of experience, so take it from me - trying to write a character that's not a Sue won't work, and trying to write a character with some Sue traits can be absurdly hard as well.

tldr; version: Just write a character, then put the fic away for a bit. Take it out later and read over it again. If the character is so boring they make you want to rip your eyes out, start over again. Those "common traits" and "limitus tests" can only help so much before you end up with a charrie like this one that should be interesting but just isn't. I've tried to make a character with the help of all of those tests and now my character is just as boring and bland as the Sues - just without sparkles. D:

[Zekurom]

She's named after me, her last name is Celestia, and she's beastly powerful.

She's also a complete bitch who ignores everyone else and thinks that the people around her are stupid. She only has two or three friends, and about... oh, a crapload of enemies. Three spring to mind right away (easier to remember than her friends O_O). Her enemies aren't evil - they're just assholes. Then again, so is she. She thinks her full name is stupid and will attack anyone who says it.

The main villains like her, but the villians fail at villainry. One of them is a dwarf who is afraid of his own shadow, and the other works herself to exhaustion and is more than a little bit mad.

Seems pretty much like a Mary Sue based on their definition to me.

tldr; version: Just write a character, then put the fic away for a bit. Take it out later and read over it again. If the character is so boring they make you want to rip your eyes out, start over again. Those "common traits" and "limitus tests" can only help so much before you end up with a charrie like this one that should be interesting but just isn't. I've tried to make a character with the help of all of those tests and now my character is just as boring and bland as the Sues - just without sparkles. D:

You have to remember that you're not aiming for zero on those tests. A good character will actually probably be scored around the second tier, "could go either way".

[クリスタル]

I'll end my discussion in this thread.

By the way, I just found that all those Mary-Sue litmus test are VEEERRRRY inaccurate. I just take my protagonist in my current Pokemon fic for test in three different sites, and it just turns out that my is an absolute Mary Sue....

If I really need to redesign another non-Mary-Sue protagonist, then it just turns out that the whole of my current story don't work out at all, all my story plot plan that is already planned will be ruin, and it will just turns out to be a boring story like the current Pokemon anime.


I'll continue asking character questions under the "how to make your main character not a mary/marty-sue?" thread.

[The Dude]

I dunno, maybe you're writing off the Mary Sue phenomenon as B.S. because you don't want to mess with your special perfect God Mode character. I've seen it before, it happens all the time. But I don't presume to know the truth. Write a chapter, post it, and then we can talk about whether your character might be a Mary Sue. It's very easy for an idea of a character to sound stupid on paper. But it's all in the execution.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'll end my discussion in this thread.

By the way, I just found that all those Mary-Sue litmus test are VEEERRRRY inaccurate. I just take my protagonist in my current Pokemon fic for test in three different sites, and it just turns out that my is an absolute Mary Sue....

If I really need to redesign another non-Mary-Sue protagonist, then it just turns out that the whole of my current story don't work out at all, all my story plot plan that is already planned will be ruin, and it will just turns out to be a boring story like the current Pokemon anime.


I'll continue asking character questions under the "how to make your main character not a mary/marty-sue?" thread.

I though you said that a Mary Sue character isn't bad... Also, if they say it is a Mary Sue, I would recommend taking it seriously, even though I only took one test for one character (who scored 3).

[Zekurom]

I though you said that a Mary Sue character isn't bad... Also, if they say it is a Mary Sue, I would recommend taking it seriously, even though I only took one test for one character (who scored 3).

Rachel scored something like 19~22 >_>

Anyway, if it scores 60 or up, it might still not be a Mary Sue, but it very probably has other problems, such as trying to stuff too much into a character.

[Giovanni Sakaki]

About those litmus tests (which you should take with salt), try running well known people through them, like Ed Wood, Bono, Hitler, etc. The results are very amusing.

[DarkDreams]

Okay. Example of a special character:

Harry Potter: A legend; the 'chosen' one; expert flyer and QW player; learns things slightly faster than normal; his parents are pretty damn awesome. Despite all of those traits, he's not a sue. He's still human. He doesn't hate himself; he doesn't think he's super cool. He gets jealous, he's bad at certain things, he doesn't like some subjects, some people dislike him, he dislikes people for stupid reasons.

Example of Mary Sue

Marie Sue'tan: The hero; the chosen one; many friends; everyone is in love with her; extremely athletic but with little muscle; child prodigy; curves in all the right places; mastered a sword skill that takes decades to master in 3 days! *coughBankaicough*

Making a character special is awesome, it's interesting and fun to read. A Mary Sue is just an ideal person. Boring as heck to read about, since we know that she's going to win. Normally, we know that a good hero would win, but we have to know how. Mary Sue would just call upon her untapped power and kill everyone. A good hero would use his wits and not derail other characters

[Italics]

And the explanation for that is usually that the canon is modified so that trainers normally start at 13/14/whatever.

But why? I don't see the point of it. Just say that they had something to do, something that stopped them from starting their training journeys at a younger age (wanted to do something else, but decided to be a trainer at the last second/got sick/parents were worried/whatever else), and then you don't have to rearrange everything to make the trainers fit. Or make them experienced already.

Or wonkily written fics, apparently. Or "bad rationalizations for capitalizing Pokémon names". She tends to get pretty worked up over those as well.

Eh, you try to review fan fiction on FFN without wanting to kill someone. The woman's reviewed close to ten-thousand fics on there. It's not called the Pit of Voles for nothing.

The capitalization thing is contested. Both sides of the argument have their own good reasons. She's just a staunch supporter of the "Pokemon =/= proper noun" side.

And she more or less puts the "nazi" in "grammar nazi." Nothing too wrong with that.

On topic: Mary-Sue litmus tests need both context and modification to be good at detection. They're only meant for the base-line Sues, the easy-to-tell kinds everybody can see. Plus, they don't take into account exceptions to realistic behavior, or indeed, people that personify these exceptions.

[Kyuuketsuki]

But why? I don't see the point of it. Just say that they had something to do, something that stopped them from starting their training journeys at a younger age (wanted to do something else, but decided to be a trainer at the last second/got sick/parents were worried/whatever else), and then you don't have to rearrange everything to make the trainers fit. Or make them experienced already.

That's exactly what I'm doing in my -in planning- fic. The character starts her journey because she has to accompany her 10-year-old brother. There are many excuses for starting the journey late, but the mere fact of starting the journey late doesn't make a character a Mary Sue, even if there is no excuse.