Official Mary Sue Thread

[クリスタル]

I don't see the point of debating is Mary Sue bad or good...

I had read through the whole thread before I made this reply.
As I seen so far, I basically understand what most people's Mary Sue are. But I just don't understand, what's wrong to have a Mary Sue in a story?

A Mary Sue character will not make your story unattractive. The only thing that make your story unattractive will be your style of writing and story plot.

As I said in some previous post, my very first Pokemon fanfic has a Mary Sue-ish protagonist. But she was not Mary Sue from the beginning, she only develop this Mary Sue characteristic slowly as she journey through the world and gain experience as a trainer and an adult.

And also one more thing: ALL adventure fictions will have its story events center around the protagonists, and the protagonists will eventually become "perfect" as they continue their journey. So it technically means ALL adventure fiction protagonists are Mary Sue (or will become Mary Sue).

[Zekurom]

And also one more thing: ALL adventure fictions will have its story events center around the protagonists, and the protagonists will eventually become "perfect" as they continue their journey. So it technically means ALL adventure fiction protagonists are Mary Sue (or will become Mary Sue).

It's not usually considered a Mary Sue unless your character starts out "perfect and flawless".

And no, they will never become "perfect", they'll just get a lot "better" and more "developed". That's part of a story.

[The Dude]

It won't be a Mary Sue if you have them develop and evolve as a character, and have things at least occasionally not go their way, and not everyone liking them. And if their power/destiny proves to be a heavy burden emotionally and physically, not something they just ace easily. A true Mary Sue stops a story dead by having few obstacles in their path, being perfect and thus having no room to develop emotionally, and not having any relatable characteristics for the audience to latch onto. The original Mary Sue thing started as a way to call people out on writing boring lead characters, and that is how it should remain.

[Zekurom]

It won't be a Mary Sue if you have them develop and evolve as a character, and have things at least occasionally not go their way, and not everyone liking them. And if their power/destiny proves to be a heavy burden emotionally and physically, not something they just ace easily.

The second part isn't normally necessary. You don't have to have everything negative, or make every blessing a mixed blessing. There should be at least some moment of genuine goodness too.

A true Mary Sue stops a story dead by having few obstacles in their path, being perfect and thus having no room to develop emotionally, and not having any relatable characteristics for the audience to latch onto.

Well, few obstacles that are difficult to overcome, at any rate.

The original Mary Sue thing started as a way to call people out on writing boring lead characters, and that is how it should remain.

Unfortunately, it hasn't. People are now using it as an excuse to pick on characters that they believe are having it too well, but are not really stopping a story dead in its tracks or are boring.

[Kyuuketsuki]

The original Mary Sue thing started as a way to call people out on writing boring lead characters, and that is how it should remain.

I don't think it started for something. From my understanding, people just saw a character that matches what a "Mary Sue" is and called it a Mary Sue and told everyone to avoid doing the same. Though it could be what you meant to say...

Unfortunately, it hasn't. People are now using it as an excuse to pick on characters that they believe are having it too well, but are not really stopping a story dead in its tracks or are boring.

One of my characters had it too well, but she was never accused of being a Mary Sue (could be because not many people read that story). But the term has been overused to the point of people accusing any character whose flaws are not clear of being a Mary Sue.

[クリスタル]

So to a more generalized POV, a "true" Mary Sue is someone that is idealized right from the beginning, and leaves no room for evolution on her characteristic.

...But what's the BIG IDEA about it?

I just take a quick Wikisearch about Mary Sue, and did a quick Mary-Sue-Litmus-Test on my fanfic protagonist. You can take a browse of that Litmus-Test page if you are interested in.
http://firefox.org/news/articles/651/1/The-Original-Mary-Sue-Litmus-Test/Page1.html

But... if you just read what's other say about that articles under the comments, I do not understand why make Mary Sue such a big issue.

I mean, come on guys, we do not write fanfic for living, they were only for fun and for fan reading, that's why they call "Fan Fiction". Though we can write it in very professional language as we would like to, but as long as there are readers, and fans like it, why care is my character Mary Sue or not?


P.S. Someone in that webpage comment Harry Potter is a Mary Sue, yet this Mary Sue is the world best-selling novel's protogonist.

[Kyuuketsuki]

So to a more generalized POV, a "true" Mary Sue is someone that is idealized right from the beginning, and leaves no room for evolution on her characteristic.

...But what's the BIG IDEA about it?

I just take a quick Wikisearch about Mary Sue, and did a quick Mary-Sue-Litmus-Test on my fanfic protagonist. You can take a browse of that Litmus-Test page if you are interested in.
http://firefox.org/news/articles/651/1/The-Original-Mary-Sue-Litmus-Test/Page1.html

But... if you just read what's other say about that articles under the comments, I do not understand why make Mary Sue such a big issue.

I mean, come on guys, we do not write fanfic for living, they were only for fun and for fan reading, that's why they call "Fan Fiction". Though we can write it in very professional language as we would like to, but as long as there are readers, and fans like it, why care is my character Mary Sue or not?


P.S. Someone in that webpage comment Harry Potter is a Mary Sue, yet this Mary Sue is the world best-selling novel's protogonist.

I don't recall ever saying that Mary Sue is bad. It could work. It could be a likeable Mary Sue. The character could have the world centring around them and still be interesting. The main character has to have something special to be the main character, but it doesn't make it a Mary Sue.

[クリスタル]

So the main character, specifically the protagonist is not accounted for Mary Sue...

[Kyuuketsuki]

It could be a Mary Sue, depends on the character. Does everyone's life center around him/her?

[クリスタル]

The answer is obvious. It is impossible for EVERYONE to center around only one person.

As an author, you make your story centralize around the protagonist, which is very obvious. But that of course doesn't mean every other characters' daily life in the story revolve around the protagonist.

[Zekurom]

The answer is obvious. It is impossible for EVERYONE to center around only one person.

Which is why it looks bad when somebody makes it so.

As an author, you make your story centralize around the protagonist, which is very obvious. But that of course doesn't mean every other characters' daily life in the story revolve around the protagonist.

And therefore, when every other character's daily life does center around a character, that character is called a Mary Sue.

[AetherX]

And therefore, when every other character's daily life does center around a character, that character is called a Mary Sue.

I think this is what everyone has been trying to say all along. This is probably the best and most concise definition I have seen.

In my opinion, Mary Sues are just boring predictable characters with no room for development. Not necessarily boring, as Chosen One stories are often very interesting. If the story is well written, any character works. If your story only makes sense with a character that others would call a Mary Sue, then so be it.

[Kyuuketsuki]

In my opinion, Mary Sues are just boring predictable characters with no room for development. Not necessarily boring, as Chosen One stories are often very interesting. If the story is well written, any character works. If your story only makes sense with a character that others would call a Mary Sue, then so be it.

Chosen ones aren't always Mary Sues. Example includes MAJOR The Demonata spoilers:

The main character is part of a prophecy about a weapon that is the strongest in the universe. The other parts is some boy he never met, and an ancestor of his. He also has magical powers (which is rare amongst humans) and is half werewolf (only his family are descendants of werewolves). The villain wants to torture him so badly. And for those who count it, he is an orphan.

But there are many characters whose lives does not center around him, and thus leave the scene for more than one book. It's true that some characters care about this character a lot, but these are well within reason; it's not irrational obsession. Some villains don't even care about him. Some characters don't even acknowledge him as important. His character goes through many changes throughout 10 books, and he obviously has issues that he needs to work on. Some stuff he did are completely unacceptable in the universe he's in, such as:

Blinding the other boy who is a part of the prophecy.
Allowing his werewolf genes to take over him.
Hiding his magical powers because he doesn't want to help the good side.

Typical teenager stuff... but not really...

[Italics]

I have seen people bitch about trainers in journey fics being older than ten when they start. Really, is it that bad and a sign of a Mary-Sue?

In a world where the entire economy, business place, government and law enforcement is based on Pokemon, the question when concerning the "right" age for trainers to start their journeys is really why they're starting later compared to other kids.

Think on it a bit. In the games, the early routes have young children: Youngsters, Bug Catchers, School Kids, Lasses, Campers, etc. They have weak Pokemon. Now, further on, you'll find Veterans, Ace Trainers, Beauties, Swimmers, etc. What do they have? Stronger Pokemon. And how old do they look? Teen-aged to middle-aged. It's reasonable to assume that, in the games' universe, most trainers start young and improve with age. (And yes, some of the younger Trainer Classes are pretty strong -- but how many of the older classes have Pokemon under level fifteen?)

Really, in a world that glorifies the older, more experienced trainers, why would anyone wait for so long? Unless the older trainers have good excuses, there's no reason for them to wait. And usually, in fiction, you will rarely find these good excuses. Because of Sturgeon's Law, good reasons as to why these "late bloomers" won't at the very least train some Pokemon at home, be explained well. Instead, they will be hand-waved away with things such as "Well, that's my age!" and "I can't write ten-year-olds!"

I can understand that. But why not write the more interesting and experienced trainers with their own fully-trained teams of Pokemon, all of whom would be teen-aged and older, and drop in flashbacks to their beginnings? Instead of starting from New Bark Town and all that useless level-grinding, why not begin in Ecruteak or Olivine and show off the main plot without stopping for useless bits of training?

Honestly, what irks me the most is the lack of reason. Give me a good reason why these kids can't start early at the age of ten and not get a good leg-up on the competition.

And I'm fine with teen-aged kids just starting out. But usually the age-ups are only a vehicle for wish fulfillment and dating that I'm desensitized to the whole ordeal.

And yes, it's usally a sign of a Mary-Sue. No, it doesn't mean all starting trainers ages fourteen and up are Sues. Just means there's some extra explaining to do, explaining that honestly can be avoided if starting trainers are believably young enough.

Stephanie in the Hoenn episode Having a Wailord of a Time is the "right" age got her starter pokémon and father (who is way older than ten) also gets his starter pokémon.

I mean if the anime does it, why can't the fanfic writers do it?

Because fan fic writers are usually amateurs and don't know how to handle such characters. In the hands of a good, experienced writer that knows proper characterization and the limits of the universe they are working with, these Mary-Sues wouldn't exist.

Mary-Sues are rookie attempts at making powerful, personality-driven characters that end up wrong. They also try to be good audience surrogates, but only reach that point half-way. They are marks (and usually the stepping stones) of beginning writers. Once the writer begins to understand the proper ways to characterize a character, Mary-Sues tend to disappear.

Extreme adherence to canon material: Ash started 10, but the game protagonists are pretty much left ambiguous albeit very young [citation needed], so everyone assumes 10 too

The anime and games follow separate canon.

Let them think what they will; the Mary Sue label is so wrongly used, it no longer counts as anything of worth (that is, pay them no mind )

I disagree. While very many powerful characters will be mislabeled Mary-Sues, it doesn't mean Sues don't exist. Just because a lot of story problems are misdiagnosed doesn't mean the issue should be dismissed outright as though it were another wrong assumption. Mary-Sues will continue to exist as long as there are amateur writers in the world.

Yeah, I was going to say the same (haven't heard good things of Farla, more than actually knowing her; "your reputation precedes you," indeed...)

She's quite nice as long as you don't offend her principles. Meaning, don't sling sexist or homophobic trite, and you'll be fine.

I don't think it started for something. From my understanding, people just saw a character that matches what a "Mary Sue" is and called it a Mary Sue and told everyone to avoid doing the same. Though it could be what you meant to say...

The original Mary-Sue was a parody of the type of character that cropped up often in Star Trek fan fiction and, ultimately, fanzines featuring fan fiction. The characters she was parodying usually distorted the canon's rules and did impossible things (e.g. made Spock human-like, a ship commander at a young age, smarter than any engineer, etc.).

Yeah, Mary-Sue used to be a Parody Sue.

[クリスタル]

But then now I'm getting difficult to understand now.

"Mary Sue" is certainly not a good title to place upon a fiction character. Every professional writers just try to avoid making a Mary Sue character.

However, "Fan Fiction" is a category of fiction where the story is based on settings that is already provided, mostly based on backgrounds of some anime, manga, games, movie, video, other novels, etc. (Quote from Wikipedia) Here many backgrounds used by fanfics, especially for the Sci-Fi, Adventure, Fantasy ones, the background settings of the world already forcing the fanfic author to create at least one Mary Sue character, where it will mostly be the protagonist or other main character(s) supporting the protagonist.

So really, if you writing Sci-Fi/Adventure/Fantasy/Mystery or any other genre that is not based on the background of real world of current days, you cannot avoid a Mary Sue character (or a very Mary Sue-ish character) in your fiction.

Also, if you look at many original animes/games/mangas/movies which many facfic was based on, you'll definitely find a Mary Sue in the original series. It just seems like it is just unavoidable, even for the character designers that create those animes/games/mangas/movies which we fanfic writer used to based on.