Official Mary Sue Thread

[matt0044]

Honestly, thirteen or fourteen is good age for Trainers to set off since they'll have puberty taken care of more or less. You could also say that school for them ends at the 8th/9th grade with no elementary, middle or high but just school in general. They can choose to go to college or first become a Trainer, then go to college at, say, 17 or 18 after they've experienced the world or something.

[Jabberwocky]

In my 'verse, becoming a trainer requires you to have attended college, and then take a two-part (battle theory and practical battling) test to receive a license.

So, excepting true prodigies, 22 is the minimum age for one to be able to compete in a Pokemon league.

[Zekurom]

Yes but Heracles is not abnormal within the narrative. He is surrounded by godly beings! Nor does he complete his tasks entirely without help, or effortlessly.

Only in his defeat of the Hydra did he have any mortal help; the "help" he received in cleaning the stables was actually a river. His other tasks were completed all by himself (though one could argue that Hippolyta gave him her girdle, meaning that she completed that task for him), and with relative ease.

Receiving help for those labours is important in the story, actually. Because he received help in those two labours, he had to do two more. So he really only had to do ten, but he had to do them all by himself.

[Jabberwocky]

Yes but Heracles is not abnormal within the narrative. He is surrounded by godly beings! Nor does he complete his tasks entirely without help, or effortlessly.

Only in his defeat of the Hydra did he have any mortal help; the "help" he received in cleaning the stables was actually a river. His other tasks were completed all by himself (though one could argue that Hippolyta gave him her girdle, meaning that she completed that task for him), and with relative ease.

Receiving help for those labours is important in the story, actually. Because he received help in those two labours, he had to do two more. So he really only had to do ten, but he had to do them all by himself.

I know that, but I fail to see how that's relevant in this context.

[RaiThunder]

In my universe, you have to completed high school to be an official trainer - have a trainer card and be able to challenge Gyms - but you can own a Pokemon from a young age if a parent buys one for you. I don't think it makes a character a Sue/Stu to have someone start late, especially if its common for where you're writing.

[System Error]

In my increasingly unlikely universe, I take a different spin on things. People can choose between schooling and battling - probably from elementary on or something. It's rare to both get a full education and be a battler, not only because of the time constraints, but also due to the horrible physical and mental consequences of attempting to do so. Naturally, you can always get a late start, but those with all the battle experience will be years ahead of you, even if you're years ahead of them. And not to say some receiving education do it part-time, but that has similar repercussions on both fronts.

There's contrasts, too. In one area, battling is seen as a luxury. A rich people's game, so to speak. Ergo, many of them go on to battle, and many poor kids go on to schooling. Comparatively, in another, battling is shown as a fallback, or anything from that to akin to sporting (like a school football or rifle team).

[TheLlama]

Battling for the rich and schooling for the poor? That's a different society alright :P Normally the poor wouldn't be able to afford schooling so they'd try and work towards battling as a means of escaping poverty. Maybe a dirty, illegal form of battling. Hmm... I'm getting ideas for myself here now... x)

[matt0044]

Wasn't this mostly about Mary Sues and what makes them deserving of the title and not really about Trainers in fanfic?

Honestly, I'm writing a Trainer fic where Hilda from BW is fourteen years old and has completed her primary education (there's no elementary, middle or High. It's just School). She puts College on hold until she's 18 and becomes a Trainer. To become a Trainer, you need to decide on that when you're 12 or 13 and be willing to get physically and mentally fit to take on the world. The Professor and a Doctor examines your health and knowledge on the basics of Pokemon, training and battling. If you pass, then you get your starter and be on your way. On your journey, you can make money on a few odd jobs in towns and cities.

[System Error]

Battling for the rich and schooling for the poor? That's a different society alright :P Normally the poor wouldn't be able to afford schooling so they'd try and work towards battling as a means of escaping poverty. Maybe a dirty, illegal form of battling. Hmm... I'm getting ideas for myself here now... x)

You forget, good Llama - public education, and the fact that you do need to purchase Poke Balls. If they were unaffordable for the average person somewhere due to economics, of course it'd end up the way I described. But if the Poke Balls were of a lower price in another part of the world, more people would be able to flock to it. In both instances, there'd still be higher education - more emphasized in the latter case.

[Green Zubat]

Battling for the rich and schooling for the poor? That's a different society alright :P Normally the poor wouldn't be able to afford schooling so they'd try and work towards battling as a means of escaping poverty. Maybe a dirty, illegal form of battling. Hmm... I'm getting ideas for myself here now... x)

You forget, good Llama - public education, and the fact that you do need to purchase Poke Balls. If they were unaffordable for the average person somewhere due to economics, of course it'd end up the way I described. But if the Poke Balls were of a lower price in another part of the world, more people would be able to flock to it. In both instances, there'd still be higher education - more emphasized in the latter case.

That's not really much of a restraint for poor people with regards to Pokémon training. Once you have a Pokémon all you have to do is keep grinding until you're strong enough to play battle successfully for money (and therefore 'Balls), and the Pokémon world is full of people just giving 'mons away (e.g. Starters & random gift pokemon from strangers, friends or family). Also, Kurt's balls are free, all you have to do is gather the apricorns, and lets not forget that you can all too often find perfectly functional 'Balls just lying around.

I mean, I can see why a lot of poor people wouldn't bother going into battling with the grinding and all (which would be doubly important since they can buy as many healing items), seeing education and later on work as an easier option, but I don't think it would flat out stop all the impoverished from choosing that path.

[TheLlama]

Battling for the rich and schooling for the poor? That's a different society alright :P Normally the poor wouldn't be able to afford schooling so they'd try and work towards battling as a means of escaping poverty. Maybe a dirty, illegal form of battling. Hmm... I'm getting ideas for myself here now... x)

You forget, good Llama - public education, and the fact that you do need to purchase Poke Balls. If they were unaffordable for the average person somewhere due to economics, of course it'd end up the way I described. But if the Poke Balls were of a lower price in another part of the world, more people would be able to flock to it. In both instances, there'd still be higher education - more emphasized in the latter case.

Not every country has an efficient system. Poor people may only be able to afford really cheap colleges, maybe none at all. They may be frowned upon for attending such a college, maybe not able to take the course they want, and so on. I mean, personally I imagine the regions I write to be welfare-heavy states with government stipends for rookie/underage trainers, public education and all that yaddayadda. Like sweet ol' Norway (where there's also completely subsidized higher education). But in a country like the US, where average annual tuition for public colleges/universities is about USD 7 000 (much higher for private schools) - given that you're from the same state -, the poorest may not be able to get the help they need.

Also, a pokeball costs 200 yen (in the original japanese games; the pokedollar is just a silly translation), which amounts to ~$2,50, anyone could afford a few. And in the anime they're free, which is even better. So that's not as much a hindrance. I mean, place a bet and win, you've got yourself an extra pokeball or two, and food for a few days. You lose? Well, then you're out, your hope's gone. Yeah. One example of how it could all be. IT would depend on the country anyway.

But this is rather off-topic, so I'm gonna stop discussing this particular subject here. I'm quite open to taking it further via VM/PM if you want to opine further over this subject.

[System Error]

That's not really much of a restraint for poor people with regards to Pokémon training. Once you have a Pokémon all you have to do is keep grinding until you're strong enough to play battle successfully for money (and therefore 'Balls), and the Pokémon world is full of people just giving 'mons away (e.g. Starters & random gift pokemon from strangers, friends or family). Also, Kurt's balls are free, all you have to do is gather the apricorns, and lets not forget that you can all too often find perfectly functional 'Balls just lying around.

You assume that A: People have to give out money for losing a battle in a universe and B: Everyone lives in Johto, where they would have access to Kurt. Well, I suppose C: People have the patience/morals/ability/safety/etc. to go out and beat the everloving hell out of wild Pokemon and whether the wilds would take that crap and D: Said gifts would be around, accessible, in some cases be given to begin with, and most importantly - in ready enough supply.

Though maybe I suppose my universe is just that big of a twisted spin on things?

But it doesn't matter. The point I was getting at pertained to all the discussions about how important education is in our universes, in regards to when trainers are allowed to start. Which spun off from a discussion of whether age makes a Sue. And all it built up to...economics. Yeah. >_> I suppose it could relate to the subject at hand, however. What difference would being rich make from being poor - and what situations would end up creating a Mr. or Miss Sue?

[Zekurom]

In that case, if your definition of Sue is that it's inherently negative toward the story, the word Sue isn't really much useful in itself, is it.

To add something onto this point that I wanted to say but didn't really get a chance to, it's about as useful as telling a person "don't write a bad character". Sure, now tell me what a bad character is.

[Tricky Kipper]

A lot of the time, and in bad writing, I'd say the trainer starting at older than 10 in fan-fic is the writer wanting to write themselves as the main character (and that generally leads to Mary Sue situations); but if I were to write Pokémon fan fiction then I'd likely have the trainer be older, because there's very little depth I could draw out of writing about a child who is more than half my age. If I were to write a story (and have flirted with it in the past) about a Pokémon Trainer, I generally start the story with the trainer being older but having already had a Pokémon for a number of years (Say, a 16 year old who has had his starter for 4 - 6 years but never really embarked on a journey with it).

[Shadow Victini]

To be honest, my Trainers can range anywhere from ten to almost thirty. For example, in one of my fanfictions, the child starts their journey at eleven and the trilogy of stories about said person end when they're in their late teens. In another fanfic I'm writing, all 5/6 main characters are in their 20's. I'm closer to ten than I am to thirty. However, usually when I write ten year olds, I always have them travel in either a duo or a trio or the like. To be honest, I really don't care or look for certain age groups. As I've said before, charries can be 10, 3, 80, immortal, 450, 25 or somewhere in between.
On the subject of Sues, one of the most common types is the Sympathetic Sue. This Sailor Moon OC is an example about how bad it can get:

My mother died giving birth to me, so I'm an only child...
My father was killed in Iraq when I was 2 then I was put into an orphanage...
When I was three I was kidnapped and augmented into a soldier called a CRUSADER...
The war ended when I was 15, and all my friends were dead...I'm the last CRUSADER...
When I was 16, I found out that I'm the wielder of a sword that almost everyone is trying to kill me for...
I met the girl of my dreams, who was shortly later killed...
You think YOUR life sucks? THINK AGAIN!!!!
—The introduction to an unidentified Sailor Moon(!) OC

the point: If you wish for your character to be sympathetic, don't pile on too many over-the-top accidents or make them angst in the most whiny and 'PITY MEEEEE!' way possible.