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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Yes but Heracles is not abnormal within the narrative. He is surrounded by godly beings! Nor does he complete his tasks entirely without help, or effortlessly.
    But it seems like that guy in the story that Khal mentioned was the same way... half god, some connection with the vampire things, etc. Everything sounds as if it were supernatural. Yeah, Hercules did have to struggle through some of his tasks, I'll give him that.
    As for the "spinning the scythe and balancing it on the sword" thing... yeah, it's impossible, but you can't say it doesn't happen in other fictions. I've seen people spinning Poké Balls on their fingers as if they were basketballs... impossible (or at least very difficult) given the Poké Ball's size. I've seen a scythe itself spun unrealistically in Soul Eater.

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    To be fair, there are real 10 year old kids that are smarter than the average 10 year old. You know, proteges. And considering the Pokemon world is NOT our world, we could say that kids in that world mature emotionally (though not sexual) so they can leave home at an early age. Maybe the school system in that world is different like it's more like homeschooling and tutoring than actual school building. Of course, you have to make sure this is explained in a way the readers can believe. It's a whole new world they live and we can take advantage of that.
    Part of it is a cultural thing... in Japan kids are more independant (granted, they don't go travelling the world on their own)

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Strange. I was told it was spelt that way. And what do you mean by "common?" Are you talking about our world or the Pokemon world?
    That's 2 different words... a prodigy is someone who is extremely advanced for his age, usually in a way that doesn't seem possible (for example, a genius, or a really good musician / athlete who shouldn't be as good as he is given his experience level)
    A protege is a basically an apprentice or student.

    As for it being uncommon, that is the very definition of prodigy. If everyone was that advanced then all that would mean is that the average would go up (the skill-level considered "normal" would be higher than it currently is), and a preson with prodigy-like skills would not be a prodigy but simply "good for his age".
    Last edited by Xenidal; 5th May 2012 at 09:38 AM.

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    Wordsmith unrepentantAuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official Mary Sue Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Proteges? ("You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.") You mean prodigies. And by their nature, they cannot be common.
    Strange. I was told it was spelt that way. And what do you mean by "common?" Are you talking about our world or the Pokemon world?

    And prodigy mean "someone who is good at something at an early age or someone who catches on faster than others," I believe.

    In the case of the Pokemon World, it's possible that kids around 10 are capable of maturing faster than we would in this world of ours. Maybe not too much like sexually and whatnot but enough that they're able to manage well in the world. Again, the Pokemon world is NOT like our world because of... Pokemon.
    A prodigy is someone who is exceptional. If all ten year olds are as competent as prodigal ten year olds in real life, you break suspension of disbelief because you are literally writing impossibly mature children. If you write just one genuine prodigy, you've created a lone child wandering about being better than older kids for no good reason. And they will still be children, still vulnerable. Why go to the effort of writing ten year olds if all you're doing is writing young adults in the bodies of children? Just write young adults instead!

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyjenn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Yes but Heracles is not abnormal within the narrative. He is surrounded by godly beings! Nor does he complete his tasks entirely without help, or effortlessly.
    But it seems like that guy in the story that Khal mentioned was the same way... half god, some connection with the vampire things, etc. Everything sounds as if it were supernatural. Yeah, Hercules did have to struggle through some of his tasks, I'll give him that.
    As for the "spinning the scythe and balancing it on the sword" thing... yeah, it's impossible, but you can't say it doesn't happen in other fictions. I've seen people spinning Poké Balls on their fingers as if they were basketballs... impossible (or at least very difficult) given the Poké Ball's size. I've seen a scythe itself spun unrealistically in Soul Eater.
    The 'guy' is abnormal within the narrative. He breaks the established laws, such as "soul eaters are nigh-impossible to kill" by killing an army of them. Heracles never defeats armies of invincible foes, nor is he impossible to overcome. Most importantly, Heracles is not unique. If your setting - in this case, ancient Greek mythology - hinges on the premise that there are dozens of fallible, capricious gods and their bastard offspring, then having one as a character is fine. The 'guy' has abilities - presented when convenient apparently without being Chekov's Guns - that outmatch by far any other being...

    EDIT: I think this was my 100th post! Congratulations, self!

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post

    A prodigy is someone who is exceptional. If all ten year olds are as competent as prodigal ten year olds in real life, you break suspension of disbelief because you are literally writing impossibly mature children. If you write just one genuine prodigy, you've created a lone child wandering about being better than older kids for no good reason. And they will still be children, still vulnerable. Why go to the effort of writing ten year olds if all you're doing is writing young adults in the bodies of children? Just write young adults instead!
    I was actually meaning that they're prodigies compare to kids in our world though not in their own but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Personally, I think Trainers are better starting off at 13 or 14.

    Also, while they might be fairly mature and smart to handle things themselves, particularly Pokemon, they could be not as much as full grown adults and still have more to learn. Like Chiyo Mihama from Azumanga Daioh. Being a Trainer could be like a sort of rite of passage and training Pokemon could be like raising a child. COULD be but doesn't have to.

    But those are just my wild ideas.

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    Default Re: Official Mary Sue Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    I was actually meaning that they're prodigies compare to kids in our world though not in their own but I guess I wasn't clear enough.
    I was actually meaning that there's no real reason to do that but I guess I wasn't clear enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Why go to the effort of writing ten year olds if all you're doing is writing young adults in the bodies of children? Just write young adults instead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuglord View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultra Pidgeot View Post
    Again, it is copyrighted. You'll need to purchase your own for 15$ if you want to read it.
    You're awful uptight about that. At least send me a link where I can buy it?

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    Default Re: Official Mary Sue Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by matt0044 View Post
    I was actually meaning that they're prodigies compare to kids in our world though not in their own but I guess I wasn't clear enough.
    I was actually meaning that there's no real reason to do that but I guess I wasn't clear enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Why go to the effort of writing ten year olds if all you're doing is writing young adults in the bodies of children? Just write young adults instead!
    I think it's because people have too arbitrary expectations. Critics say that people should be writing young adults, but when they try to, those very same critics will say that having people starting out their trainer after the age of ten is somehow sacrilegious to canon. Then they will go into rants about how more stories should start in medias res because they're tired of all the boring beginning portions when really, it's simply their own jade-coloured glasses that make them start to think that the symptom makes the problem.
    Last edited by Zekurom; 7th May 2012 at 12:35 PM.
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    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

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    Default Re: Official Mary Sue Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Yes but Heracles is not abnormal within the narrative. He is surrounded by godly beings! Nor does he complete his tasks entirely without help, or effortlessly.
    Only in his defeat of the Hydra did he have any mortal help; the "help" he received in cleaning the stables was actually a river. His other tasks were completed all by himself (though one could argue that Hippolyta gave him her girdle, meaning that she completed that task for him), and with relative ease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuglord View Post
    I think it's because people have too arbitrary expectations. Critics say that people should be writing young adults, but when they try to, those very same critics will say that having people starting out their trainer after the age of ten is somehow sacrilegious to canon. Then they will go into rants about how more stories should start in medias res because they're tired of all the boring beginning portions when really, it's simply their own jade-coloured glasses that make them start to think that the symptom makes the problem.
    This is actually an interesting point to bring attention to. What is the strength of the claim that trainers must start their journeys at ten years old? As far as I'm aware, the sole piece of evidence is a line in the animé pilot which could be interprreted as an arbitrary parental restriction rather than a universal rule.

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    Default Re: Official Mary Sue Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    This is actually an interesting point to bring attention to. What is the strength of the claim that trainers must start their journeys at ten years old? As far as I'm aware, the sole piece of evidence is a line in the animé pilot which could be interpreted as an arbitrary parental restriction rather than a universal rule.
    In the manga, the trainers begin at eleven (well Red does, anyway), I believe. Some also start at ten.

    An "arbitrary parental restriction" would seem to go the other way - then ten would be too high. I think what they intend to say is that starting at ten years old is supposed to somehow be the norm - in which a parent who keeps their child past ten is being overprotective and abnormal.

    But yeah, the way some authors blow this little fact out of proportion is really bad.
    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

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    I just straight out ignore it, really. In my world trainers aren't able to start out at thirteen (and those who do have to go through trainer school from the year they're ten, without graduation from a trainer school you can't be a trainer - not legally anyway), and several tend to postpone it until after high school. But then again, I tend to freely change and interpret canon information as I see fit.

    They can be a sue either way, and not be a sue either way - that all depends on how you end up writing them, what their reasons are and how well justified they are (not that you really need a lot of justification; too much personal justification and you're threading into sue territory).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llama_Guy View Post
    I just straight out ignore it, really. In my world trainers aren't able to start out at thirteen (and those who do have to go through trainer school from the year they're ten, without graduation from a trainer school you can't be a trainer - not legally anyway), and several tend to postpone it until after high school. But then again, I tend to freely change and interpret canon information as I see fit.
    I straight out ignore a lot of things, even things that people would say shouldn't be ignored. Not even canon-breaking is indicative of a Sue (well, as long as it's not something that's played out in a Sue-ish way, anyway).
    The word "quadragonal" is the only word with "dragon" in it where "dragon" is not a root word. That makes it awesome.

  12. #207
    Wordsmith unrepentantAuthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smuglord View Post
    In the manga, the trainers begin at eleven (well Red does, anyway), I believe. Some also start at ten.

    An "arbitrary parental restriction" would seem to go the other way - then ten would be too high. I think what they intend to say is that starting at ten years old is supposed to somehow be the norm - in which a parent who keeps their child past ten is being overprotective and abnormal.

    But yeah, the way some authors blow this little fact out of proportion is really bad.
    Isn't it all rather trivial, ultimately? It's unreasonable to demand that all children, regardless of circumstance or character, be given a pokémon when they turn ten, not before, not after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llama_Guy View Post
    I just straight out ignore it, really. In my world trainers aren't able to start out at thirteen (and those who do have to go through trainer school from the year they're ten, without graduation from a trainer school you can't be a trainer - not legally anyway), and several tend to postpone it until after high school. But then again, I tend to freely change and interpret canon information as I see fit.

    They can be a sue either way, and not be a sue either way - that all depends on how you end up writing them, what their reasons are and how well justified they are (not that you really need a lot of justification; too much personal justification and you're threading into sue territory).
    Agreed, completely. Of course, there's always the option to keep it fairly ambiguous, I guess, or to deregulate the whole concept of trainerhood. If I were to write a journey fic, the idea of ignoring licenses and having characters of various ages acquire starters of various species in various ways would appeal to me more than some arbitrary age restriction. And again, the franchise, whether game or animé, is not consistent on this point. Think of the child trainers littering the games, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smuglord View Post
    I straight out ignore a lot of things, even things that people would say shouldn't be ignored. Not even canon-breaking is indicative of a Sue (well, as long as it's not something that's played out in a Sue-ish way, anyway).
    Changing canon isn't a reflection on the character, in my view. If the character was the only canon-breaker, it would raise suspicions. If they're normal within an alternate set of narrative laws? They cannot be individually condemned as a sue. For example; if the character is the only sixteen-year-old trainer, having spent six years learning about battling, wading through a sea of newbie ten-year-olds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor
    [...]the franchise, whether game or animé, is not consistent on this point
    ...which is why I tend to ignore it and make my own rules, really. The reason I operate with regulations is because we're talking about fairly young kids here. The concept of routes is something I have, for example, adapted as a say for rookie trainers to be able to travel through the wild without risking running into some thousand-year old dragon pokemon who'd blast them and a mountain away in a split second. older trainers can freely run around outside of the routes (at their own peril, of course). And so on, and so on.


    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor
    Changing canon isn't a reflection on the character, in my view. If the character was the only canon-breaker, it would raise suspicions. If they're normal within an alternate set of narrative laws? They cannot be individually condemned as a sue. For example; if the character is the only sixteen-year-old trainer, having spent six years learning about battling, wading through a sea of newbie ten-year-olds.
    My thoughts exactly. It's not the setting, but the characters. It's the characters in relation to your fanfic's canon, not the original canon, that determines their level of sue-ness.
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    Default Re: Official Mary Sue Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Llama_Guy View Post
    The concept of routes is something I have, for example, adapted as a say for rookie trainers to be able to travel through the wild without risking running into some thousand-year old dragon pokemon who'd blast them and a mountain away in a split second. Older trainers can freely run around outside of the routes (at their own peril, of course). And so on, and so on.
    Can i just say, I really rather like this idea? It just makes so much sense, and fits perfectly with this one theory of mine that the frankly schizophrenic difficulty of gym challenges is a product of each gym leader having teams to suit trainers of many skill levels. It's why the first gym leader is always pathetic, yet has a perfectly competent team when asked for a rematch post-E4. The league challenge, hypothetically, really could be tailored for trainers, analagous to the way games are tailored to players' rising skill level. Just a wild idea, I know.

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    Reality is a dream TheLlama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Official Mary Sue Thread

    Your theory about gym trainers is also one of the changes I've thrown in. Junior Trainers are in gyms so that Gym Leaders can judge the strength of the challengers, adapt their own to that level. Gyms are about challenges after all, it's about an obstacle that a kid has to surpass. This means it needs to be at the right level, no more, no less. Simple as that. The Elite Four is serious business though, they're professionals (in the "I get paid for what I do" sense, just like gym leaders), that's not something you challenge till you're twenty-thirty years old :P I operate with the whole tournament-based League you see in the anime. And I separate it into a junior and senior league (split at 18 years of age), just like sports in real life. Still not sure whether the junior league needs to be further split up though (a rookie league for first-time trainers, perhaps).

    And so on and so on. But this is rather off-topic, I'd enjoy further discussion about this in a new thread or via VM/PM, though.
    Last edited by TheLlama; 10th May 2012 at 07:33 PM.
    "People like you and me overcame the Neanderthals. People like you and me overcame the Ice Age"

    "You can hold [the brain] in the palm of your hands - and it can contemplate the vastness of interstellar space"

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    The Symphony of Science; a tribute to the marvels of science and nature.


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