Official Mary Sue Thread

[Drakon]

I have seen people bitch about trainers in journey fics being older than ten when they start. Really, is it that bad and a sign of a Mary-Sue?

Stephanie in the Hoenn episode Having a Wailord of a Time is the "right" age got her starter pokémon and father (who is way older than ten) also gets his starter pokémon.

I mean if the anime does it, why can't the fanfic writers do it?

[Legacy]

Why would that be bad or a Mary Sue?

[AceTrainer14]

I only have a couple of characters who begin their journeys at 10. I prefer writing about teenagers as
A.) You can do a broader range of topics that are more realistic for a teenager to do (e.g. sexual topics, relationships)
B.) I find 10 year olds irritating to write about
C.) I find it illogical for a ten year old to be able to bring down a villianous organization. While 13-15 isn't really better, it is more believable and realistic in my opinion. I know 10 year olds that still cry when they fall over

[Zekurom]

I have seen people bitch about trainers in journey fics being older than ten when they start. Really, is it that bad and a sign of a Mary-Sue?

No, people are just snobby about canon that way.

I think what the beef with these characters are, though, is the fact that they start out at an earlier age when most people start at ten. If the regular age were higher, it would be more acceptable. But even then, a few purists will argue "NO IT HAS TO BE TEN".

I had Rachel start out at 11, and somebody asked me, "why not ten?". It's a fact of life.

[Instrutilus]

But...Red and Blue started at 11 in Red and Blue. What, are the game characters Gary Stus since they're over 10?

[Gama]

I have no idea why this would be a problem, I think it's fine. In fact, I usually leave ages ambiguous because the characters in the games are stated to be ten but are clearly not ten.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Starting at 10 has become a normal thing.
Starting after 10 has also become a normal thing.

There are characters starting their journey at different ages, it doesn't make anyone a Mary Sue. The character should start the journey at the age that the writer feels most comfortable writing with. I personally prefer not to give my characters a definitive age (most of the time), but it mostly to create an air of mystery.

[Zekurom]

But...Red and Blue started at 11 in Red and Blue. What, are the game characters Gary Stus since they're over 10?

It's not a Gary Stu/Mary Sue issue at all, and more of a "respect canon, you jerk" issue.

Problem is, canon itself has so many exceptions to this rule.

Drakon, can you give us any examples of what this specific reviewer's arguments were that trainers should start at 10?

[Kayi-chan]

The reasons why they might claim that anyone over ten starting a Poketrainer's journey is a Mary Sue (rarely a Gary Stu; thanks, double standards! *dislikes*) are basically two:

1. Extreme adherence to canon material: Ash started 10, but the game protagonists are pretty much left ambiguous albeit very young [citation needed], so everyone assumes 10 too
2. Children don't write fanfiction (usually), teenagers and young adults do, so a trainer older than 10 could very well be your own avatar, and that's supposedly the mark of a Sue/Stu
3. The trainer is female on top of all that (double standards!)

...don't worry if you ever need an older trainer. Let them think what they will; the Mary Sue label is so wrongly used, it no longer counts as anything of worth (that is, pay them no mind )

[Zekurom]

The reasons why they might claim that anyone over ten starting a Poketrainer's journey is a Mary Sue (rarely a Gary Stu; thanks, double standards!

On the contrary, my dear. The word Mary Sue is also often used to refer to male characters as well. At least in my parlance.

...don't worry if you ever need an older trainer. Let them think what they will; the Mary Sue label is so wrongly used, it no longer counts as anything of worth (that is, pay them no mind )

This is very true. It's so easy to scream "OMG YOUR TRAINER IS OLDER THAN TEN MARY SUE MARY SUE" or some other inane reason that the real definition of Mary Sue got lost in the backwater.

That being said, it is possible for a trainer older than ten to be a Mary Sue, but the high age is not going to be the only reason (or a reason at all, in some cases).

[Baashka]

people complain about this? i had no idea. i guess the star of my journey fic is a super sue then - she's a twenty year-old woman!

but really, i would like to see more journey fics where the main character is older than ten. all those adult trainers you run into had to get their start sometime, and i doubt most of them would have only gotten their pokemon to level seventeen after eight years!

[Aladar]

Definitely not, IMO.

Using a teenager as a main character just allows you to be able to cover a much wider aspect of topics as some others pointed out before me.

Besides, ten or twenty, a Mary Sue can be any age, be it 700 hudreds old or more, and still look like a supermodel.

[Drakon]

Drakon, can you give us any examples of what this specific reviewer's arguments were that trainers should start at 10?

Much obliged.

This is from a your OC might be a Mary-Sue list:

He/she is older than the required age for a trainer (10) when he/she starts his/her journey

This is a review from Farla on FF.net.

Trainers start at ten. No, I don't care that pokemon talk in your version or that you only get one pokemon in your version or that you have to ask in your version. None of these things should change the age, let alone coincidentally change it to the age people are always changing it to anyway with their regular trainers.

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I wonder if these people are aware that if you strictly follow canon things can get hellaciously boring?

Remember the Descent trilogy? Peter Telep wrote authorized fanfiction (novels that you can buy, granted they are out of print) of them and they break canon to a pretty good extent. Which is a good thing because if they precisely followed the game's plotline, you would have an unbelievably boring book.

[Zekurom]

This is a review from Farla on FF.net.

It's always Farla, isn't it >_>

But that's not really a Mary Sue comment. It's more of an "OMG YOU'RE BREAKING CANON PUT YOUR TRAINER BACK AT AGE TEN WHERE HE/SHE BELONGS" thing. I had a person complain about the ten-years-old thing (well, less of a complaint and more of a really long comment on why it should be ten) but it was less about breaking canon and more about keeping age requirements consistent. I have Rachel lampshade the fact that the minimum age is 10, and yet she starts out at 11 with no reason for it whatsoever.

It's comments like these that make me think that she's trying to boss everybody around. Either that, or she's starting to get sloppy with her reviews.

[Kayi-chan]

On the contrary, my dear. The word Mary Sue is also often used to refer to male characters as well. At least in my parlance.

Still, from my experience, a girl OC is more likely to get labeled a Sue than a boy OC a Stu (or a Sue *LOLs*)

And actually, until very recently, the sole idea of labeling a boy OC a Stu/Sue was unthinkable, because, you know, double standards the traditional Sue was a lady with very specific characteristics that couldn't possibly apply to a male at all. It wasn't until the corruption of the term Mary Sue started happening that we were able to begin pointing fingers at the guys too.

...and then all went to hell as the Sue and Stu terms were overused in the wrong way. Neither term means anything anymore.

It's always Farla, isn't it >_>

Yeah, I was going to say the same (haven't heard good things of Farla, more than actually knowing her; "your reputation precedes you," indeed...)