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  1. #16
    Clarion of Revelations Feliciano's Avatar Social Media Editor
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Dudes. Chill pills all around. We're all friends here, right? Right.

    Realism isn't really much of a concern for me in terms of specific sizes for a region. It takes however long I need it to take to get somewhere. I mostly go off of the games in terms of a city's relative size, but I'll add in whatever I feel necessary. Towns obviously don't consist of only three or four houses, after all, and big cities will have a lot more than just personal homes and one or two areas of interest. Sometimes I'll add in additional towns or cities (I once had a fake town along the coast of the bay between Vermillion City and Fuchsia City called Navy Port), but since I don't have a single continuity between all of my pokemon stories, they're usually one-off things. I might reference real-world places or events, but I tend to keep it ambiguous as to where the regions are because, frankly, it usually won't matter whether or not the pokeworld is a series of island continents suspiciously similar to some regions in Japan, the actual regions inside Japan, or what language anyone speaks. Writing another language is fecking difficult because you've got to be sure you're doing it correctly, and it quickly becomes nothing more than a pain in the ass. The characters could very well be speaking another language, but the writer will be writing in English anyway (at least here), so there's translation convention at work.
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  2. #17

    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    So... wait a minute. You can put a whole new continent on or shift a bunch of islands to Earth. You can put all the pokémon there.
    But it's unreasonable and out of character for your characters to learn Japanese? While in cities based on Japanese lands and cultures, with Shinto towers and Kimono girls and bullet trains?
    Really?

    There would be no reason to strand your characters. No-one said "it has to be Japan". But it is kind of a lot more ridiculous to say I can clone an archipelago, defying all laws of tectonics, over having my characters know another language. Most people in the world know more than one language, it's common. But my point is, you can have the geography be Japan, but not the language or the culture, because, this is Pokémon. The Pokémon world, not ours. If they're in Japan or a Japan-like island nation, who's going to say it's wrong? It's easier to justify than 'sudden mass of unexplored, unknown islands suspiciously similar to Japan and continents with odd, almost magical creatures'.
    Last edited by RaiThunder; 6th May 2012 at 06:05 AM.
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  3. #18
    Wordsmith unrepentantAuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    ...there's no need to get hostile. Holy crap.

    And it's not exactly like Japan. Take a look at my personal map:



    The way I have it set up, the shapes of the regions are roughly similar to the places they're based on, but not exactly the same.

    As for having my characters learn Japanese, it's out-of-character. When it comes to throwing out plausibility, throwing out character consistency/believability is where I draw the line.
    I do not believe I was being hostile, nor does anything you have said merit hostility. I'm willing to demonstrate hostility should you so desire. (I am joking. No intentional hostility from me.)

    Let me show you something.
    This is what I mean when I say the regions really are identical. And, I stress, Kanto's real life counterpart is also named Kanto.

    I find your lack of reason disturbing. But it's not my business to condemn whatever line you draw on what you choose to find believable... Nevertheless: is it really so hard to have your characters be speaking Japanese? (You don't need to use a single Japanese word, aside from "pokémon" obviously, given that you are simply writing in English.) I'm not trying to convince you to, I'm just incredulous that that's a bigger deal to you than the aforementioned geographical peculiarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feliciano View Post
    Dudes. Chill pills all around. We're all friends here, right? Right.

    I tend to keep it ambiguous as to where the regions are because, frankly, it usually won't matter whether or not the pokeworld is a series of island continents suspiciously similar to some regions in Japan, the actual regions inside Japan, or what language anyone speaks. Writing another language is fecking difficult because you've got to be sure you're doing it correctly, and it quickly becomes nothing more than a pain in the ass. The characters could very well be speaking another language, but the writer will be writing in English anyway (at least here), so there's translation convention at work.
    I've yet to lose my chill, and we are all anonymous posters on an internet forum debating. This seems perfectly civil to me. Try browsing Youtube comments some time. ;P

    Ambiguity is a helpful tool because, as you so rightfully say, it rarely will matter on any significant level. I add to that that the language itself can be ambiguous. I'm currently reading a book written in English but set in a world that is culturally Japanese: technically the characters speak Japanese but there's never a Japanese word - though I admit the author uses Japanese names. (It's called "Across the Nightingale Floor" if you're curious, and it's moderately good.)

    While I'm at it, Isshu/Unova is essentially New York, although the resemblance is much less clear. However, Liberty Garden is Liberty Island, Unity Tower is the United Nations, Skyarrow Bridge is the Brooklyn Bridge et cetera. You're welcome.

  4. #19
    Reality is a dream TheLlama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    unrepetant, even if you didn't mean to be hostile, the way you phrased yourself did come off as slightly hostile, just saying.

    You are very correct in that the regions are, in the games, based off of real locations in Japan - but that does not mean you HAVE to have them be Japan if it's in the real world, you can always use some creative interpretation.
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  5. #20
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Quote Originally Posted by RaiThunder View Post
    So... wait a minute. You can put a whole new continent on or shift a bunch of islands to Earth. You can put all the pokémon there.
    But it's unreasonable and out of character for your characters to learn Japanese? While in cities based on Japanese lands and cultures, with Shinto towers and Kimono girls and bullet trains?
    Really?

    There would be no reason to strand your characters. No-one said "it has to be Japan". But it is kind of a lot more ridiculous to say I can clone an archipelago, defying all laws of tectonics, over having my characters know another language. Most people in the world know more than one language, it's common. But my point is, you can have the geography be Japan, but not the language or the culture, because, this is Pokémon. The Pokémon world, not ours. If they're in Japan or a Japan-like island nation, who's going to say it's wrong? It's easier to justify than 'sudden mass of unexplored, unknown islands suspiciously similar to Japan and continents with odd, almost magical creatures'.
    Uh, not everyone can be bothered to learn a foreign language. My four characters hailing from New York spent a good portion of their childhood in the slums or even on the street (except one, Annie, who's actually upper-class), and when they finally got out of that nightmare, foreign languages were the last thing on their minds. If there's one out of all of them that may know a foreign language, it would be Annie, and she's more likely to have learned Spanish, French or German. The little bit of Japanese that Bella knows is just song lyrics she learned phonetically—she has no idea what any of it means.

    My English character, Professor Sonan, I suppose could have learned a foreign language, one that would be helpful in his line of work as a biologist/geneticist—admittedly, I don't know if Japanese falls into that category or not. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But somehow I can't picture a Christopher Lee lookalike speaking Japanese very well. His adopted son Colin only knows a foreign language by virtue of being a genetic experiment in "brain-programming", and that language is PokéSpeak. The good doctor had no time to program any more before his laboratory was destroyed by one of his other experiments, and he has since dropped experimenting in favor of dealing solely in theories.

    The islands are not "sudden" or "newly discovered"—we're left to assume they've been there the whole time. This isn't necessarily our Earth in the traditional sense, it could be an alternate universe that's still similar to ours, but not identical (like the Pokénation itself).

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    I do not believe I was being hostile, nor does anything you have said merit hostility. I'm willing to demonstrate hostility should you so desire. (I am joking. No intentional hostility from me.)

    Let me show you something.
    This is what I mean when I say the regions really are identical. And, I stress, Kanto's real life counterpart is also named Kanto.

    I find your lack of reason disturbing. But it's not my business to condemn whatever line you draw on what you choose to find believable... Nevertheless: is it really so hard to have your characters be speaking Japanese? (You don't need to use a single Japanese word, aside from "pokémon" obviously, given that you are simply writing in English.) I'm not trying to convince you to, I'm just incredulous that that's a bigger deal to you than the aforementioned geographical peculiarity.
    As I have said, my setup does not resemble Japan exactly as yours seems to. I will point out that your setup has one crucial flaw—Hoenn is not oriented that way in the games in which it appears, even if its real-world counterpart is. As for there being two regions called "Kanto", there are also multiple places called "Springfield", "York" and even "Paris", so....

    I'm willing to accept the theory that early settlers of Kanto and Johto (and maybe other regions as well) may have been Japanese, and that their cultural influence persists into the present day, thus explaining things like the Kimono Girls. Outright replacing an existing country with a fictional one stretches my willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point—that's why I'd have to actually use the real Japan if I tried to do it your way.

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    While I'm at it, Isshu/Unova is essentially New York, although the resemblance is much less clear. However, Liberty Garden is Liberty Island, Unity Tower is the United Nations, Skyarrow Bridge is the Brooklyn Bridge et cetera. You're welcome.
    Again, my characters aren't from Unova, they're from New York. Having them come from Unova would be....weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llama_Guy View Post
    unrepetant, even if you didn't mean to be hostile, the way you phrased yourself did come off as slightly hostile, just saying.

    You are very correct in that the regions are, in the games, based off of real locations in Japan - but that does not mean you HAVE to have them be Japan if it's in the real world, you can always use some creative interpretation.
    Thank you. And besides which, if the story's any good, no one's going to be paying attention to the geography anyhow. It's like how Coruscant is scientifically unsound every way you look at it, but you don't really notice while you're watching the movie.

    ....wait....maybe that's not the best example.

    ....

    Uh....but you get my point.

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  6. #21
    Reality is a dream TheLlama's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    With the right materials and a lack of plate tectonics, a ecumenopolis with kilometer-tall buildings is quite feasible, actually. But point.

    I don't really see the big deal, though. uA, just because you don't see the sense in someone's argument doesn't thereby mean it is flawed. If a person thinks it is more appropriate to have the regions, which are inspired by Japan, as a separate region, then why not? That does not mean, in any way, that it is suddenly appropriate for them to know another language all of a sudden. There is no logical correlation between having one and the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepetantAuthor
    You're telling me you can have an archipelago exactly like Japan sitting next to it in the Pacific, but you can't make your characters learn Japanese.
    Basically this is the argument I'm talking about, and it is your argument that is flawed, in that you expect a slippery slope-like situation ("if you have one unbelievable thing, then why not another?").

    oh, and look at this. Notice how there's two Scandinavia-looking landmasses (one to the south of unova, one to the southeast)? If it's done in the anime itself, then why not in a fanfiction?



    With all that said, I do not personally like the idea of just making the pokemon world a separate continent in our world. But whatever floats people's boats. I wouldn't really mind if I read a story set to such a setting.
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Well now, none of this is what I expected when I made this thread. I really don't mind the arguing, it's kind of interesting to read actually, especially since I agree with unrepentantAuthor regarding this. I'm not saying you have to do it his way, that would be silly of me. This is the interweb and the bulbapedia forums, no one can make you do anything their way and he doesn't want you to. My question is, if you can put a new continent into the planet, that was settled by Japanese people, why do you expect them to speak English? English is not exactly the most important language in the world. While it is true that many countries do teach their people to speak English, why exactly would the Pokemon Regions primary language be English?

    I'm willing to accept the theory that early settlers of Kanto and Johto (and maybe other regions as well) may have been Japanese, and that their cultural influence persists into the present day, thus explaining things like the Kimono Girls. Outright replacing an existing country with a fictional one stretches my willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point—that's why I'd have to actually use the real Japan if I tried to do it your way.
    This is what stretched your willing suspension of disbelief? Not a continent that would have to stretch the surface of the planet and/or rise the oceans in order to exist, not the fact that multiple regions of this new continent/group of landmasses would be identical to several nations in another country - not similar, not sharing the same name, having the same shape and coastline as multiple regions without actually fitting together with any of the existing continents of our planet?

    Also, as a point of curiousity, why do they have to be from the slums of New York? If that's what you want, I don't particularly care, but your readers will probably want to ask questions like, what impact did this new continent have on history, why aren't Pokemon all over the place, etc. If you want them to be from the slums, there are multiple big cities, and Castelia City is an expy of New York down to the Golden Gate Bridge and Liberty Island.

    Which brings me to other questions - what impact did the regions have on history, why aren't there Pokemon outside of them (or are there), what kind of relationship does this country have with other counties, do they have UN membership? What is the focused religion, are people allowed the freedom to practice multiple religions (since they are on Earth after all). What is their main export and what kind of government system do they have?

    Have many countries flooded due to rise in the ocean's depth? What relief effort was done to help them? Or did they just sink away and never exist because they were always buried undersea? It would suck to see my home state flooded and I kind of like Denmark and other places, like you know, England. Kinda had an impact on history, those places. Now I want to ask - Do they do underwater expeditions to the decaying remnants of a submerged Disney World? Were all the endangered species at the San Diego zoo and Wild Animal park evacuated? What about all the research done on campuses? And the civilians! This must have had a massive impact on the planet and US -

    Oh no New York would be sinking if not already underwater. Those slums must have been horrible, with all that water and sea-life trying to eat your characters.
    Please note, this is not sarcasm. I genuinely want to know.
    Last edited by RaiThunder; 6th May 2012 at 12:37 PM.
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  8. #23
    Wordsmith unrepentantAuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Quote Originally Posted by Llama_Guy View Post
    unrepetant, even if you didn't mean to be hostile, the way you phrased yourself did come off as slightly hostile, just saying.

    You are very correct in that the regions are, in the games, based off of real locations in Japan - but that does not mean you HAVE to have them be Japan if it's in the real world, you can always use some creative interpretation.
    Please stop misspelling my name, Llama_Guy.

    Subjectivity is a poor argument. Please, try not to take what you infer from my voiceless textual messages as actual 'tone'. I could very well be smiling pleasantly and offering refreshments while logically taking apart the arguments of my debating partners. There is no objective hostility in what I've said.

    No, it is not imperative to have the pokéworld be Japan. You are right. I feel, however, that at this point the topic of debate is Glitchipedia's reasoning, not the ideal way to interpret the pokéworld: specifically, the fact that his fanciful addition of a heavily revised pokéworld to the Pacific stretches the believability for others, and without sound justification. Not that I care particularly, but I feel compelled to assert that poor reasoning behind creative liberties can and will damage a story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    Uh, not everyone can be bothered to learn a foreign language. My four characters hailing from New York spent a good portion of their childhood in the slums or even on the street (except one, Annie, who's actually upper-class), and when they finally got out of that nightmare, foreign languages were the last thing on their minds. If there's one out of all of them that may know a foreign language, it would be Annie, and she's more likely to have learned Spanish, French or German. The little bit of Japanese that Bella knows is just song lyrics she learned phonetically—she has no idea what any of it means.

    My English character, Professor Sonan, I suppose could have learned a foreign language, one that would be helpful in his line of work as a biologist/geneticist—admittedly, I don't know if Japanese falls into that category or not. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But somehow I can't picture a Christopher Lee lookalike speaking Japanese very well. His adopted son Colin only knows a foreign language by virtue of being a genetic experiment in "brain-programming", and that language is PokéSpeak. The good doctor had no time to program any more before his laboratory was destroyed by one of his other experiments, and he has since dropped experimenting in favor of dealing solely in theories.
    Well, thank you for providing me with character context that I was not previously aware of. It helps to illustrate your point of view.
    I don't think it really invalidates any particular point, however. Your information is not self-evidently vindicating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    The islands are not "sudden" or "newly discovered"—we're left to assume they've been there the whole time. This isn't necessarily our Earth in the traditional sense, it could be an alternate universe that's still similar to ours, but not identical (like the Pokénation itself).
    Again: this stretches believability for me enormously. Certainly more than having an alternate-universe!Japan where plenty of bilingual immigrants exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    As I have said, my setup does not resemble Japan exactly as yours seems to. I will point out that your setup has one crucial flaw—Hoenn is not oriented that way in the games in which it appears, even if its real-world counterpart is. As for there being two regions called "Kanto", there are also multiple places called "Springfield", "York" and even "Paris", so....
    If your 'setup' is different, it is because of your own alterations alone. Looking objectively at the unedited coastlines and mountains of the pokéworld regions and real life Japan, it is clear how they matc Hoenn is - for all anyone knows - oriented the way it is in the games so it may fit the screen better. Nowhere is it said, as far as I know, that "up" on the map is "north".

    You misunderstand. There are not simply two settlement with the same name... there are two large regions that are geographically identical and bear the same name. Corresponding coastlines and all. Your argument would more readily apply if there was a city outside of France named Paris that also had an exact replica of the Eiffel Tower and counterpart geography, culture and so on. I am aware of no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    I'm willing to accept the theory that early settlers of Kanto and Johto (and maybe other regions as well) may have been Japanese, and that their cultural influence persists into the present day, thus explaining things like the Kimono Girls. Outright replacing an existing country with a fictional one stretches my willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point—that's why I'd have to actually use the real Japan if I tried to do it your way.
    It would not be replacing a real country with a fictional one. It would be altering a real country to a not dissimilar fantasy state, explicable by the presence of pokémon. You contemplated a mere two paragraphs ago that this universe could be similar but not identical to our world - an alternate history. So, clearly, that is an idea palatable to you. Surely such an alteration is more believable than two Kantos with the same coasts, the same mountains, the same city locations, the same culture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    While I'm at it, Isshu/Unova is essentially New York, although the resemblance is much less clear. However, Liberty Garden is Liberty Island, Unity Tower is the United Nations, Skyarrow Bridge is the Brooklyn Bridge et cetera. You're welcome.
    Again, my characters aren't from Unova, they're from New York. Having them come from Unova would be....weird.
    When I posted that, I was not aware your characters were from New York. You'd yet to mention such a thing. How is that even relevant to whether or not New York is like Unova, anyway?


    Please, could explain to me why them coming from Unova - a New York expy - would be weird? I'm just not seeing it, sorry. Seems less weird to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    Thank you. And besides which, if the story's any good, no one's going to be paying attention to the geography anyhow. It's like how Coruscant is scientifically unsound every way you look at it, but you don't really notice while you're watching the movie.

    ....wait....maybe that's not the best example.

    ....

    Uh....but you get my point.
    I do notice it when I'm watching the movie. Don't project your suspension of disbelief on to mine to make a point, because, again, it's subjective. I personally find Star Wars to be generally nonsensical and can't take it seriously! The inherent unsustainability and improbability of a planet-city is a point I make every time I see the movie.

    Nevertheless, for once, I do get your point; I even agree! I also get that it's evasive, and that your use of ellipses and hedging 'uh's implies uncertainty. Word to the wise: to create a convincing argument, speak with conviction. Just some friendly advice.


  9. #24
    Good Bad Bug Glitchipedia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Okay, here's an explanation in Pokémon world logic. The legends say Regigigas pulled the continents into position, right? Maybe he had a brain fart and duplicated some landmasses by mistake, and humans, taking note of this, shrugged and built near-identical cities and towns in the corresponding places.

    The bottom line, though, is that I do it the way I do it because it's my personal preference. That's all the reason I've ever needed. If that's not good enough for you, then fine, it's not good enough for you. My strong suit is characters, not geography. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

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  10. #25
    Clarion of Revelations Feliciano's Avatar Social Media Editor
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Please, try not to take what you infer from my voiceless textual messages as actual 'tone'. I could very well be smiling pleasantly and offering refreshments while logically taking apart the arguments of my debating partners. There is no objective hostility in what I've said.
    Right, because there's absolutely no way that tone can be conveyed through text alone. If that were the case, I'd have to tell you straight out that that sentence was sarcastic, and I'm pretty sure you're keen enough to pick it up on your own.

    This was a thread asking how we, as individual writers, interpret the pokemon world and fit its existing perimeters into our stories. This was NOT a thread meant to debate the validity of anyone's interpretations. If someone else's interpretation doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't really affect you, now, does it? You don't have to read their work. You don't have to use their interpretation. So why are you so hell bent on proving their interpretation "wrong?"
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  11. #26
    Good Bad Bug Glitchipedia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    I'm sure his intention is to help me make my writing more "believable". The trouble is I disagree with his viewpoint just as he disagrees with mine. Both our minds are made up, so I think it's best we just drop the subject.

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  12. #27
    Wordsmith unrepentantAuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making the Pokeworld your World

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    Okay, here's an explanation in Pokémon world logic. The legends say Regigigas pulled the continents into position, right? Maybe he had a brain fart and duplicated some landmasses by mistake, and humans, taking note of this, shrugged and built near-identical cities and towns in the corresponding places.

    The bottom line, though, is that I do it the way I do it because it's my personal preference. That's all the reason I've ever needed. If that's not good enough for you, then fine, it's not good enough for you. My strong suit is characters, not geography. Let's agree to disagree and move on.
    ...I don't know whether you meant the regigigas explanation facetiously or not, but I actually like it. Fallible legendaries are an interesting device.

    That is fine, as the argument appears to be exhausted. I'm content to leave it at that if you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feliciano View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by unrepentantAuthor View Post
    Please, try not to take what you infer from my voiceless textual messages as actual 'tone'. I could very well be smiling pleasantly and offering refreshments while logically taking apart the arguments of my debating partners. There is no objective hostility in what I've said.
    Right, because there's absolutely no way that tone can be conveyed through text alone. If that were the case, I'd have to tell you straight out that that sentence was sarcastic, and I'm pretty sure you're keen enough to pick it up on your own.

    This was a thread asking how we, as individual writers, interpret the pokemon world and fit its existing perimeters into our stories. This was NOT a thread meant to debate the validity of anyone's interpretations. If someone else's interpretation doesn't make sense to you, it doesn't really affect you, now, does it? You don't have to read their work. You don't have to use their interpretation. So why are you so hell bent on proving their interpretation "wrong?"
    Tell me, how do you think that using a particularly overt instance of sarcasm is going to enlighten me as to how anything I've said could be objectively hostile?

    The thread isn't about debating validity? One of the debaters on this particular issue is the OP. I believe the appropriate phrase is "what is this I don't even." In any case, if you want to be pedantic, the thread is about "making the pokéworld your world." We have still been discussing exactly that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glitchipedia View Post
    I'm sure his intention is to help me make my writing more "believable". The trouble is I disagree with his viewpoint just as he disagrees with mine. Both our minds are made up, so I think it's best we just drop the subject.
    Sounds acceptable to me.

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