I think that there should be a pay gradient between 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 battles, otherwise there's no point in battling 3 on 3 but for the ref. Also 1 on 1 battles that aren't basics should get paid, but maybe only about 500
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I think that there should be a pay gradient between 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 battles, otherwise there's no point in battling 3 on 3 but for the ref. Also 1 on 1 battles that aren't basics should get paid, but maybe only about 500
2v2 and 3v3 are both noncompetitive sizes for battling. That's why there is no pay gradient.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeMaster
DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ABOUT THE NEWLY IMPLEMENTED BASICS RULE. THIS IS MY OPINION ON IT. THIS MAY NOT CHANGE ANYTHING BUT THIS IS ME GIVING MY FEEDBACK.
While I agree that people have been abusing basics, I have problems with this new rule. Being a rule-abiding URPG member and a person who likes to help the new players, I have a few things to point out about the consequences of the rule change.
1. URPG is supposed to be fun. Doing basics that aren't two people using evolving 'mons are a pain in the neck and are long and tedious. The person using the permabasic donates their time and effort, possibly using a Pokemon with Pickup--but in the end, if Pickup doesn't work, they get nothing for sitting there and battling for an hour. It's annoying and just plain un-fun. "But people will have basics to evolve together", you say. Not always. Move on to point 2.
2. Basics are hard to come by. The new Mart price changes make basics rarer all the time. While I agree that people should focus more on individual Pokemon they already own, and to EM them up, new people are stuck with the short end of the stick. We also don't get a lot of new people that stick around, making for even LESS Pokemon that need to be evolved. This also leads into point 3...
3. New people won't stick around if evolving new Pokemon in a sea of EM'd, completely evolved Pokemon is too hard. People want to be on the level of others and fight competitively--which is hard already, even with the system of basics used previously. As a Trainer and Battler, I am only slowly starting to get on par with some of the lower-tier battlers, which is completely fair. Starting people off with a frustrating system will discourage new players right off.
4. "But the old URPGers had to do it this way before you and they're just fine!" Okay, sure, but there was a reason people changed it. It's frustrating as all hell! Battling for so long, making the refs do a lot of work, and taking up everyone's time is nobody's idea of a good time. Just because YOU had it hard doesn't mean everyone else does. Systems change for a reason. Just because something is HARD doesn't make it GOOD. Yeah okay, so you grew up with Pokemon Red and Blue, where leveling was slower and the Psychic Gym was a bitch to defeat. But Game Freak fixed that with an easier interface and leveled out moves as well as an easier, more fun way for EVERYONE to enjoy the games. Yay! URPG should do the same.
5. "People are getting paid too much for a pre-determined battle!" Yeah, okay, I kind of agree with this. So do one of two things: eliminate pay altogether or make refs enforce the "no throwing battles" rule. DON'T DO BOTH. IT SUCKS. People have permabasics to be NICE to those who need to evolve. Yeah, okay, they get like, 5K out of it and a Pickup, maybe. But that's like, what, one good TM? Maybe two? That's nothing in the world of URPG. Plus TMs are NEEDED. The Pokemon/TM ratio is off-balance, especially for newer players. And for the people getting the full 10K? They either worked for the Pokemon through writing, drawing, or roleplaying, paid for it in the Mart, or traded it for equal value with someone else. That money is paying them back and helping give their 'mons the evolution items they need or a few EMs to get them started. Not a big deal. However, if you want to dock pay--LET PEOPLE THROW THE BATTLES. Please. It's ridiculous how long and dumb this process is. It's anger-inducing and awful.
So that's my two cents. I had a battle with Taither with my permabasic, knowing I wouldn't get paid for it but at least hoping that my efforts to win the battle would at least get me a Pickup. It didn't. I wasted like two hours doing that when I needed to be curating and doing Ranger things, things I actually get paid for. While I'm happy that Taither got his Aggron, I walked away from that battle annoyed and frustrated. Not something I want to feel when playing a game online with others. Oh, and that's one last thing. URPG = Ultimate Role-playing GAME. GAME. G. A. M. E. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE FUN AND RELAXING FOR GOODNESS' SAKE.
Completely with Protobabe. New basic rule sucks arse. People should be rewarded for their actions, even if the actions are repetitive and don't require much mental effort, it's that simple. If the senior refs are butthurt about certain URPG members making lots of money off of permas, why don't you just half pay for permas? People are still paid something, making the battlers happy, and they earn less, making the seniors happy. It is literally a win win scenario.
Before I reply to this, I should mention that this issue was discussed in the staff forums for quite a long time about how best to address the issue.
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Originally Posted by TheProtobabe
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Originally Posted by ChainReaction01
Not even going there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monbrey
However, I actually agree with the mods on this one. The answer to "1v1s with no pay are boring" in a nutshell: Don't do them.
Seriously, no-one is forcing you to give up your time for no reward. No-one is forcing you to do these so-called "un-fun" things. As Monbrey said, it was completely your decision to do the basics battles instead of whatever else. I very rarely do basics battles, because of how much of a process they've become.
But ok, let's dissect this.
1) Your entire argument basically implies money = fun (unless you're trying to tell me I'm missing a vital non-monetary difference between getting 2HKO'd ten times without pay and getting 2HKO'd ten times with pay with makes the latter fun. If that is the case, I'd LOVE to know what it is), and from what I assume, that's the warped thinking the mods are trying to dispel. Also, if you take an hour (or worse, two hours) to do 7/10 1v1s, even without "throwing" them, you're doing them wrong.
2) "Basics are fewer"[citation needed]. Also, even if there are less basics, doesn't mean that "balances out" the money they give out. There's also no "limited supply of basics"
3) "People want to be on the level of others and fight competitively" How is this limiting it at all?
4) Once upon a time, all battles (including fully evo'd 1v1s) paid. I had it WAAAY easier than you. The system never changed to make it more lax, so I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
5) I lol'd at "people do permabasics to be nice". If that were the case, this wouldn't even be a discussion and you'd gladly do it without pay. And once again, if you don't like proper basic battles, don't do them. The truth is, you could very well do something productive at the same time as the basics, so any time-wasting that goes on is just from poor management of the party involved.
At the end of the day, basics are always going to be "un-fun". That's never going to change. So, while we're doing the whole "dissecting what URPG stands for" thing (which, by the way, you did wrong - it's Ultra): Ultra ROLE-PLAYING Game. ROLE-PLAYING. R.O.L.E.HYPHEN.P.L.A.Y.I.N.G. Just embrace them and MAKE them fun. Try and strategise. Try and win. Or if that still doesn't work, as a last resort money being banned for the permabasic means the perma has no incentive to not OHKO anymore. Do that and they'll take even less time. You're welcome.
Stop crying, grow up, and battle like it should be done, not for convenience. I have long said perma's need to be banned for this reason. It has already been decided, and implemented, it's not going to change. Instead of wasting time complaining, go find another way to abuse the system if you are that concerned.
To Monbrey:
While I don't quite agree with everything you've said, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my points. I see what you mean about everything besides my point about doing one thing or the other: Either take away all money and allow thrown battles, or try to enforce real basics and let people have the money. I honestly don't see how either of those could be exploited. And even if they are, why couldn't mods punish the singular perpetrators instead of everyone in the URPG? I understand that you probably won't change the rule, and I won't like it, but I still think it's not necessary to enforce both rules.
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Originally Posted by KidBeanoNot even going there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monbrey
However, I actually agree with the mods on this one. The answer to "1v1s with no pay are boring" in a nutshell: Don't do them.
Seriously, no-one is forcing you to give up your time for no reward. No-one is forcing you to do these so-called "un-fun" things. As Monbrey said, it was completely your decision to do the basics battles instead of whatever else. I very rarely do basics battles, because of how much of a process they've become.
But ok, let's dissect this.
1) Your entire argument basically implies money = fun (unless you're trying to tell me I'm missing a vital non-monetary difference between getting 2HKO'd ten times without pay and getting 2HKO'd ten times with pay with makes the latter fun. If that is the case, I'd LOVE to know what it is), and from what I assume, that's the warped thinking the mods are trying to dispel. Also, if you take an hour (or worse, two hours) to do 7/10 1v1s, even without "throwing" them, you're doing them wrong.
2) "Basics are fewer"[citation needed]. Also, even if there are less basics, doesn't mean that "balances out" the money they give out. There's also no "limited supply of basics"
3) "People want to be on the level of others and fight competitively" How is this limiting it at all?
4) Once upon a time, all battles (including fully evo'd 1v1s) paid. I had it WAAAY easier than you. The system never changed to make it more lax, so I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
5) I lol'd at "people do permabasics to be nice". If that were the case, this wouldn't even be a discussion and you'd gladly do it without pay. And once again, if you don't like proper basic battles, don't do them. The truth is, you could very well do something productive at the same time as the basics, so any time-wasting that goes on is just from poor management of the party involved.
At the end of the day, basics are always going to be "un-fun". That's never going to change. So, while we're doing the whole "dissecting what URPG stands for" thing (which, by the way, you did wrong - it's Ultra): Ultra ROLE-PLAYING Game. ROLE-PLAYING. R.O.L.E.HYPHEN.P.L.A.Y.I.N.G. Just embrace them and MAKE them fun. Try and strategise. Try and win. Or if that still doesn't work, as a last resort money being banned for the permabasic means the perma has no incentive to not OHKO anymore. Do that and they'll take even less time. You're welcome.
Okay, you know what, you two, way to debate and not insult the person making an argument. Extremely mature. At least Monbrey had the decency to treat me respectfully.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanTreeFrog
To Kid Beano:
I WANT to do 1v1's for people. Do you know why? Because it promotes new members, helps them evolve their Pokemon, and become a viable URPGer. I don't always have an evolving basic around. So, perma-basic! Bam, now we have a way to help those new people. My only problem with this new system is that we now have to work at battles with no reward. Here is my formula for a 1v1 with a permabasic that doesn't suck for senior members who just want to do things to help out:
A) Keep the 'no money earned for permabasics' rule... in fact, take money away from basics, but let people throw battles.
B) Enforce that people don't throw battles on purpose, but let them have a little reward for their effort.
I don't think it would be logical to choose the second option, simply because you'll be trying to control how people battle and I don't like it.
1) My entire argument isn't that basics are fun. Basics are boring, no matter what. But making us pull eye teeth for them is dumb. And the reason it took so long for my battle was because I was trying to win and stalled with confusion and flinches, plus the ref got busy a couple of times in the middle.
2) People ARE buying less basics. The main income of basics are now starting to trend towards art, stories, and RP, which is awesome, but makes for less overall basics at one time for people to battle 'normally' with.
3) People do want to be on par with the evolved, EM'd Pokemon that are around. Everyone wants 'to be the very best', no? And having to spend all that time and effort on basics makes it boring and time-consuming. WV has come to me with a comment on her part, saying that battles between basics used to be roleplayed out a bit. Now, that's pretty cool and kind of fun. However, RPing isn't for everyone--some people hate writing and just want Pokemon battles. But, isn't URPG supposed to be for everyone?
4) Well, I am sorry if I am wrong about that. I got the impression from other players that it used to be harder to do basics and such around here. If you were around longer and had a different experience, then it was different for you than the others.
5) I DO do basics to be nice. I don't hog them either, and rarely do them outside of trying for Pickup or evolving my own Pokes. Earning 5K and maybe getting a Pickup isn't really all that much unless someone hogs up all the basics and gets a lot of money--which is why this was started in the first place. Either someone needs to watch and make sure people don't do that (pounce on every basic) or half/take away the money earned for every basic.
And thank you for that last paragraph. Thinly veiled raging at someone who is only trying to put her input into URPG as a fair player and active participant is so classy.
To ATF:
Excuse you for that biting comment. You need to apologize, because I have never tried to abuse anything. I abide by all the rules and have done nothing to warrant your patronizing tone. Perhaps you should do your research and see that I have never broken any rules, complained about much of anything, contributed to URPG as best I can, and worked hard to learn how to battle properly and get the right EMs for all of my existing Pokemon. I don't have a huge list of Pokemon, I have never tried to buy tons of basics simply for monetary gain, and I do not try to exploit the system. I'm not sorry that I had something to say about the new rules that have suddenly been implemented that make a change in the URPG I first joined. I have the right to put my comments and complaints here in this thread. It's what it's FOR. Stop bullying people that have opinions.
I'll try to be a little more detailed on that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProtobabe
If we remove ALL money for basics, and allow the battle to be thrown, then to me it seems they might as well not exist (which was actually suggested, no more basics). They're not a real battle AND they have no reward, meaning that there is absolutely no benefit in conducting them at all besides the evolution.
If you have two battlers and a ref who genuinely don't care about the money and just want to skip through the set ASAP, a Fully Evolved Pokemon can OHKO the basic 10 times. It wont pay anyone anything, but the basic will evolve. If evolving basics without a permabasic DOES become a very big issue and two parties with evolving basics are never available, I would probably consider implementing some small FIXED reward for conducting 10 OHKO's or thrown battles, for the older members who care more about the evo than the profits. This would only be something like a flat payment of $1000 for all parties involved. This would be balanced, and prevent the abuse of the possible $10,000/$5,000 profits.
The other option of enforcing "real" basics, I assume you're referring to battling with a permabasic and trying to win. Unfortunately, this usually results in an ever bigger case of abuse. Instead of using Pokemon like Meowth or Eevee or anything else that is intended to LOSE the battle, permabasics will then become TM'd Scythers, Porygon-2's, and any other high-powered basic form that can curb-stomp it's competition. Before all these thrown battles were happening, this is how permabasics were used, however we fined those responsible for abusing the battling system.
Given the recent events, we had considered fining people again. However, since many members such as yourself were introduced to the system in a manner that suggested this was the correct way of doing things, we decided against punishing anyone. That's also the reason I'm taking the time to discuss the issue with you, and anyone else in your situation. I have very little patience for veterans who know how wrong this method is, but defend it anyway for profits, which is also where MK and ATF's strong opinions come from. If I were dealing with veterans, my conduct would probably be the same as theirs.
ATF is actually the nice one. You should meet his brother.
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Originally Posted by EmBreon
Obligatory
I'd just like to quickly point out that Ash K and Morru started a 4v4 a little after our basics started and ended a little before ours ended, which makes sense based on the whole "effort should be equal to payout" mentality that permeates through the whole issue. In fact, when you think about it the 2k/1.5k/.75k a ref and the battlers (respectively) get from participating in a 4v4, it still doesn't at all compare to the 5k/10k/5k they would get from 10 ("legal") basics. Based on the logic that you guys seem to be pushing should basics take about the length of an FFA (and a large one at that), at least several hours ?Quote:
Originally Posted by KidBeano
The real problem is that basics pay way too much. They're a totally insignificant part of the URPG and should be treated as such. All of these rules are jumping through hoops to fix the issue that veterans are abusing the system. But realistically no one actually likes to do basics. People just want to get them over with as quickly as possible because the end result is what they really want, the fully evolved Pokemon (and whatever cash they can make). I sort of understand the concern with new members being confused about the way battles work when they are handed wins on a silver platter, but just make the payout relative to the payout of a normal battle and veterans won't take advantage of it. If it makes more sense for someone to do a regular battle instead of abuse basics, they'll do the regular battle. If you're that worried about new members getting money then just give them more money to start with....
These loops are just really roundabout and obnoxious. The intentions were good and there seemed to be a good amount of debate on the staff boards about whether they should be implemented, but there didn't seem to be enough debate over what should be done. The way I see it there's a "golden ratio" of reward:effort that the officials are trying to obtain. Before this, the ratio was way too high so you tried to raise the amount of effort needed. However, the better step would've been to lower the reward. I also think the administration is too proud to admit they were wrong and revoke their decision so I doubt anything is going to come of this discussion....
Excuse me, I never personally attacked you at all. The most I did was mock your rather patronising "G.A.M.E". I've not treated you with any disrespect and have no intention of doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheProtobabe
As I said before, if you're willing to do 1v1s to help people, then the money should only be an afterthought. It's a rather selfish mindset to think "Yes, I'll help you evolve your Pokemon, but only because I know I will get something in return". We should be encouraging "Yes, I'll help you evolve your Pokemon, because I know it's the right thing to do". I, too, have a permabasic, but mostly for novelty value - I only used it to basics battle if someone was desperate and couldn't get anyone else. I never did it for the money, only accepting it out of courtesy for the URPG rules.Quote:
I WANT to do 1v1's for people. Do you know why? Because it promotes new members, helps them evolve their Pokemon, and become a viable URPGer. I don't always have an evolving basic around. So, perma-basic! Bam, now we have a way to help those new people. My only problem with this new system is that we now have to work at battles with no reward.
Again with "want to do things to help out". That should be the reward in itself. Not money.Quote:
Here is my formula for a 1v1 with a permabasic that doesn't suck for senior members who just want to do things to help out:
I already pointed out, throwing battles can't be policed. Just don't be obvious and use Leer or whatever - the difference in effort to type an actual attacking move is negligible.Quote:
A) Keep the 'no money earned for permabasics' rule... in fact, take money away from basics, but let people throw battles.
See above about helping being its own reward.Quote:
B) Enforce that people don't throw battles on purpose, but let them have a little reward for their effort.
Agreed. Attempting to police the validity of 1v1s is pointless.Quote:
I don't think it would be logical to choose the second option, simply because you'll be trying to control how people battle and I don't like it.
I said your entire argument was that MONEY = fun. You originally implied that basics battles are no fun unless there's pay. Your example of the failed Pickup rolls implied that had you gotten a successful Pickup, you would not have been annoyed or frustrated. That implies it obviously wasn't the actual basics battling that irked you, but rather your lack of gain from them. Again, not what the URPG should be encouraging.Quote:
1) My entire argument isn't that basics are fun. Basics are boring, no matter what. But making us pull eye teeth for them is dumb. And the reason it took so long for my battle was because I was trying to win and stalled with confusion and flinches, plus the ref got busy a couple of times in the middle.
I'm still not understanding the relevance. Permabasics aren't banned. So, if you have a mon that needs evolving, just find someone with a perma. You still get paid. Goes back to not being blatant with the throwing.Quote:
2) People ARE buying less basics. The main income of basics are now starting to trend towards art, stories, and RP, which is awesome, but makes for less overall basics at one time for people to battle 'normally' with.
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill with the effort required for basics. They honestly shouldn't take you more than half an hour at most. If you're willingly extending the battles to turn it into a more 'competitive fight', then one would only assume you don't care about the effort you place in.Quote:
3) People do want to be on par with the evolved, EM'd Pokemon that are around. Everyone wants 'to be the very best', no? And having to spend all that time and effort on basics makes it boring and time-consuming. WV has come to me with a comment on her part, saying that battles between basics used to be roleplayed out a bit. Now, that's pretty cool and kind of fun. However, RPing isn't for everyone--some people hate writing and just want Pokemon battles. But, isn't URPG supposed to be for everyone?
Oh, on Bulbagarden, it's been on the current-ish system for as long as I can remember. I date back to when it was just on Pe2k, and that was a whole different story.Quote:
4) Well, I am sorry if I am wrong about that. I got the impression from other players that it used to be harder to do basics and such around here. If you were around longer and had a different experience, then it was different for you than the others.
If isn't all that much, then why is it a big deal? Again, 1v1s are near impossible to police, so really the only option the mods have is to eliminate any possibilities for people to take advantages of loopholes. It's stopping the people who don't need the battles from taking advantage of them, while also keeping the people who DO need the battles from being disadvantaged. Unfortunately, that is going to affect some people who are playing fair, but overall, it just creates a fairer playing field.Quote:
5) I DO do basics to be nice. I don't hog them either, and rarely do them outside of trying for Pickup or evolving my own Pokes. Earning 5K and maybe getting a Pickup isn't really all that much unless someone hogs up all the basics and gets a lot of money--which is why this was started in the first place. Either someone needs to watch and make sure people don't do that (pounce on every basic) or half/take away the money earned for every basic.
Like I said, that wasn't a personal attack. Just a snide way of showing how patronising that bolded part was. The fact you took offence to it proves my point, really.Quote:
And thank you for that last paragraph. Thinly veiled raging at someone who is only trying to put her input into URPG as a fair player and active participant is so classy.
EDIT:
Have to jet off so no time to go through your post Elamite. However:
The majority being pro-something does not make the minority who are anti-it wrong. Having said that, to accuse the mods of fighting for a cause they don't believe in is absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamite
We often admit we are wrong, when we actually are wrong. This is not one of those times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamite
This is a very complex decision that incorporates a lot of different factors. It's not just about the profit/reward. It's not just about evolution. You raised a good point about basics being way more profitable than a 4v4, yet then continue to seem to be against the fact that I lowered the reward. If you're suggesting it should be lowered for the evolving user and the ref also, that's a valid suggestion, and one that was considered and may still be considered.
In all honestly, the staff were largely divided on this matter, and its not a sort of issue that really promotes compromise. Every and any solution that was suggested was effectively an absolute in one way or another. Those that weren't absolute generally didn't solve the issue at all. In the end the discussion was going around in circles and producing no effective resolutions, so I made a final decision on the matter based on what was one of the more popular decisions amongst the staff. I'm not claiming it's perfect, or it was a unanimous decision, because it wasn't.
What I find hilarious is that people are calling this a wrong decision 24 hours after it's implementation. Your sample size must be really effective to draw these conclusions. In a week or two if the economy is broken because of this, or Pokemon become impossible to evolve then yes, there will be SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE that my decision was wrong, and from that point we can look at revising the solution.
The main complaint we're getting is not "How do I evolve my Pokemon now?" or "Well how do I make money?". It's "What use is my permabasic now?" The resounding answer is that it's not much use, because it never should have been. We're giving everyone's little punching bags a well deserved reprieve, and returning the system to the state it should have been maintained in.
@KidBeano; Thanks for telling people to keep throwing battles in a more sneaky way. Super helpful to the URPG honour system.
Yea sorry, I meant this exactly. I guess I should have specified that I meant all participants in the basics should have their pay cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monbrey
