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  1. #31
    The Hero You Never Needed Neonsands's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickKaiser View Post
    With the issue on wildcards, could Monbrey and WTP please elaborate on why Salamence is not a Fire Wild Card?
    Why should it be a WC?

  2. #32
    not a bear ayotui's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by Neonsands View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickKaiser View Post
    With the issue on wildcards, could Monbrey and WTP please elaborate on why Salamence is not a Fire Wild Card?
    Why should it be a WC?
    its a fire breathing dragon...

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    The Hero You Never Needed Neonsands's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayotui. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neonsands View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickKaiser View Post
    With the issue on wildcards, could Monbrey and WTP please elaborate on why Salamence is not a Fire Wild Card?
    Why should it be a WC?
    its a fire breathing dragon...
    So are Garchomp, Altaria, Dragonite, Druddigon, Hydreigon, and Flygon. Why not them too?

  4. #34
    The People's Champion Roulette's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    As much as I would love having a few more mons to fill those tricky roles in my gym, I'm gonna have to say no on this one. It sounds great since I have a type with so many options, but I think this would be bad not only for the challenger, but the leader as well.

    First off, most gym leaders (bar a few who have made the best of their already handicapped types) only use about 6-8 of their mons usually. The rest come in when the situation calls for it. As for me, I only circulate 5 or 6 mons regularly- only half my lineup. Point being, after you've had time to figure out what works, you stick to it. You stop using "niche mons" because you find out that other things do the same thing, but better. For instance, I don't send Swampert out every time someone throws a Jolteon at me. I can use Ludicolo and get the same result, then have a more versatile mon on the field after I get the KO. But that brings me to my next point.

    I assume most people are wanting to do this for the addition of more mons to fill specific roles. I think Chainy mentioned a few things like Rapid Spin Hitmontop, etc. This raises a problem for gym leaders, and eventually turns into a handicap. If you stuff your lineup with mons who are only capable of performing one task, you're probably not going to have the best lineup. You'll end up sending out your niche mons to do something, but then the opponent is free to send in something that you can't really fight back against without switching. My point is, it's better to learn how to use what you have to get the job done instead of just piling in more mons to do things you think your current Pokemon aren't capable of.

    This also has potential to be really terrible for challengers too though. Some types like Dragon and Fire would probably be pretty easy if they didn't have a couple of key mons to anchor them. Dragonite and Salamence for Dragon and Blaziken with Fire (though gen V did help Fire a bit) are really some of the biggest threats in these gyms. By increasing the mon limit, most leaders would just add a second overpowered Nite or Blaziken to their lineup since it would be more useful than adding say, a Torkoal or Druddigon. You can sometimes spend a lot of time and Pokemon taking down one Dragonite or Blaziken, so it would be really annoying to finally kill one and have a second one come in to take its place at full health.

    Also, I think that while Leaders are automatically at a handicap by being restricted to one type, they also get a lot of perks that arguably fix that problem completely. We get to control every aspect of the rules and battle conditions, tailoring it to fit whatever strategy we want. I'm not shy about admitting that my gym would be a hell of a lot easier to beat if I didn't throw up rain at the beginning of each battle. Having complete control over this AND having a lineup of 15 or more seems like pure overkill to me. Poor newbies would never get the courage to challenge a gym when faced against a lineup that has more Pokemon than their stats >_<.

    One last thing: How many gyms have negative records right now? I haven't checked on this at all, but I'm pretty sure most of us aren't hurting too badly. Losses happen, but most of us have been in our positions for quite awhile and have the smarts, battling abilities, and Pokemon to not get taken down by just anyone. Let's not forget that you aren't entitled to an easy time defending your gym. Just as a challenger should have to think on their feet to overcome the rules of your gym, you should be able to rely on 12, usually well-TMd Pokemon to beat them. Instead of adding mons to give you an advantage by default, use your skills to give yourself an advantage by HARD WORK. You people are not bad battlers ._. give yourself some credit.

    TL;DR: no.

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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    I am too a bad battler D:
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by Roulette View Post
    First off, most gym leaders (bar a few who have made the best of their already handicapped types) only use about 6-8 of their mons usually.

    ---

    By increasing the mon limit, most leaders would just add a second overpowered Nite or Blaziken to their lineup since it would be more useful than adding say, a Torkoal or Druddigon. You can sometimes spend a lot of time and Pokemon taking down one Dragonite or Blaziken, so it would be really annoying to finally kill one and have a second one come in to take its place at full health.
    The former sentence shows why using the latter as an argument is completely invalid. If Leaders usually only circulate half their lineup, then what's already there to stop them adding in another Blaziken/Dragonite/whatever? Duplicate mons is a different issue entirely, and you can't say "Doing this'll create this problem" when the 'problem' already has the potential to exist in the first place.

    Also, even if we did have an onslaught of people adding duplicate mons in, it's really not that hard to say "No Duplicate Mons Allowed". :/

    And your whole 'Leaders stuffing lineups with niche mons' - again, that's NOT what this is saying. It's not like the leaders are going to go "herpderp, we have 3 extra mons, I'm now going to completely wipe my 7 regularly circulated mons and fill it all with niche mons instead", it's so that alongside those 7 circulated mons, you can have 8 mons as backup. Not every niche mon will have something that can do its job better - in fact, I challenge you to find an 7-mon lineup for every Gym that can cover every situation without resorting to 'niche mons'. Granted, there might be something more versatile that can do its job, but then, it might not be as reliable, or it might not do it as well, and that's where some people will choose the other. It's like Flamethrower vs Fire Blast, Thunderbolt vs Thunder, Ice Beam vs Blizzard, etc... All the options have their pros and cons that change in weighting depending on the situation. Very few people go "I won't bother getting Fire Blast because Flamethrower is more accurate" or "I won't bother getting Flamethrower because Fire Blast is more powerful" - usually, people will get both so they're covered whatever the situation, or get the one that can be used in more situations first, then have the other one there as backup when they can. It's exactly the same thing for mons.
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  7. #37
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by Roulette View Post

    Also, I think that while Leaders are automatically at a handicap by being restricted to one type,

    >2012
    >says he's at a handicap
    >uses Dragonite as WC


    Why are you guys still posting? Chain already said he dropped it since most people aren't in favour.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by PichuBoy View Post
    The former sentence shows why using the latter as an argument is completely invalid. If Leaders usually only circulate half their lineup, then what's already there to stop them adding in another Blaziken/Dragonite/whatever? Duplicate mons is a different issue entirely, and you can't say "Doing this'll create this problem" when the 'problem' already has the potential to exist in the first place.

    Also, even if we did have an onslaught of people adding duplicate mons in, it's really not that hard to say "No Duplicate Mons Allowed". :/

    And your whole 'Leaders stuffing lineups with niche mons' - again, that's NOT what this is saying. It's not like the leaders are going to go "herpderp, we have 3 extra mons, I'm now going to completely wipe my 7 regularly circulated mons and fill it all with niche mons instead", it's so that alongside those 7 circulated mons, you can have 8 mons as backup. Not every niche mon will have something that can do its job better - in fact, I challenge you to find an 7-mon lineup for every Gym that can cover every situation without resorting to 'niche mons'. Granted, there might be something more versatile that can do its job, but then, it might not be as reliable, or it might not do it as well, and that's where some people will choose the other. It's like Flamethrower vs Fire Blast, Thunderbolt vs Thunder, Ice Beam vs Blizzard, etc... All the options have their pros and cons that change in weighting depending on the situation. Very few people go "I won't bother getting Fire Blast because Flamethrower is more accurate" or "I won't bother getting Flamethrower because Fire Blast is more powerful" - usually, people will get both so they're covered whatever the situation, or get the one that can be used in more situations first, then have the other one there as backup when they can. It's exactly the same thing for mons.
    Well, I didn't mean that this is entirely for the purpose of stacking lineups with niche mons. I'm just saying that I'm pretty sure that's what most people will do. Also, as for the duplicate mons thing, I'm saying that right now with 12 spots, most people would pick a unique mon over something that they already have, but if you add 3 more spots, the types that don't have much to choose from will just add an easily obtainable powerhouse that they already have.

    And the challenging me to find a 7 mon lineup thing. Why deal with hypotheticals here? Nobody is trying to find a 7 mon lineup. They're trying to find a 12 mon lineup. IMO, the current number lets you have everything you need + a few specialty mons as it is.

    Also @LS the Door Mat I've said like a million times that I wouldn't be bothered if Nite wasn't a WC. I've used it I think 2 or 3 times out of my 14 wins, so yeah. Also you're pushing really hard for Mence WC aren't you? I think Mence belongs in a Fire gym as much as Nite does in a water gym. Both are fine with me.

    EDIT: LS where did I say I was at a handicap? ._. I agree that Water is hella easy to defend.

  9. #39
    The Hero You Never Needed Neonsands's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    I'd like to propose my idea again, since you guys seem to be bringing up more potential problems that could be solved by it.

    Wildcard or extra 1 or 2 mons. If you choose to use a wild card, you don't get the extra spots. If you choose the extra spots, you can't ask for a wildcard. That seems reasonable to me. That way people won't complain if they can't get a wildcard they like. Also, it rewards people for finding strategies within their own typing.

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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Posting on behalf of TED

    Teddy Bear 3:05 pm
    I'm not going to give a long response because something like this doesn't deserve one. Simply put, allowing gyms to have more Pokemon in them will ONLY help the flying gyms and water gyms pretty much. And the leaders that own those gyms are already pretty talented, so increasing the limit on Pokemon allowed would only make it more impossible to defeat them.
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  11. #41
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    So I was reading this thread and wasn't going to respond, but then as I read my face did this:



    So I'm going to write a lot now and it's going to be tl'dr. SORRY.


    I fail to see how 'tell the Gym leader to get better, that's their job' is a real solid argument, but opinion is an opinion.
    Well, it IS their job to not suck, and most of them do it quite well already. As Roulette said, I'm pretty sure most people (especially those who've had one type they've stuck with for a long time) have positive records. Most niche Pokemon are unnecessary and as has already been said, there are only a few types with more useful Pokemon that can be added to their lineup. Those types have enough good Pokemon already. I remember with Violet (AFTER I stopped sucking, thank you very much ;D ) I mostly used Dragonite, Blaziken, and then something else random like Togekiss. I used about 5 Pokemon overall in a type that has many good Pokemon.

    But, if those leaders don't have their mons on their lineup (like applying for), they're seen as idiots and sometimes not chosen.
    Don't know what this has to do with having 15 Pokemon seeing as for most types there's a few that you pretty much NEED. Infernape for Fire, Whimsicott for Grass, etc, etc. Nobody's going to think you any less of a gym leader for not bringing a Crawdaunt to your Water gym.

    It might even make gym battles more fun and encourage people to do them
    Except for the newbies who will look at your hoard of Pokemon and cry themselves to sleep because they own a Furret and a Gyarados.

    I'm not going to really argue about it, because I know WTP will just say no anyway, cos he's in charge
    He'll say no to it, because he's in charge. This is wonderful reasoning and I commend you for it. That's the only reason I quoted this.

    On the pro side, this allows for gym leaders to get more creative and embrace their typing on a greater level. It makes the gym system muh more challenging, while also giving it a greater sense of reward. This system rewards those who have invested in their gym and who have opened up the option to greater diversity.
    I do agree with this and admit that it would actually be pretty cool to use some of the Pokemon that wouldn't normally be useful. Things like Tropius for Flying or Musharna for Psychic (I don't actually know if that sucks or not, I'm just guessing). However, it would make some gyms (once again the aforementioned Flying and Water) too powerful. There are other types with a lot too, but I'm more familiar with those and don't want to comment on anything that I have no experience with, like Poison or something.

    Anyways, I had a thought about this. What if we made it so this was a tradeoff of sorts. Some gym leaders seem to feel robbed for not having a particularly useful Wildcard, while others wouldn't particularly need a wildcard if they had more options of their own typing. So what if we put in place a system that gave you the option to pick either having a wildcard, or getting 2 or 3 extra spots?
    I'm cool with this idea if we give it some more consideration to make sure nothing crazy will come out of it.

    Lastly, on Wildcards: No, don't remove them. However, don't add more WCs. I still stand by the viewpoint I've always had of a standardised list of WCs, which gets rid of any 'WTFs' like LS was saying. Seriously, Lapras in a Dragon gym is pretty stupid.
    (Spoilered because the image is LARGE)



    With the issue on wildcards, could Monbrey and WTP please elaborate on why Salamence is not a Fire Wild Card?
    Because the reasoning is it's a Dragon not a Fire monster. As far as Dragonite for Water WC, I think the reasoning is that it's pretty much canon that Dragonite and its pre evolutions live in the ocean or around the ocean or something. Not exactly solid reasoning, but I am neutral as to whether or not Dragonite is a WC for that gym or not. I also wouldn't mind Salamence being a Fire WC, but this is the reasoning, to my knowledge.

    Why are you guys still posting? Chain already said he dropped it since most people aren't in favour.
    Because all the cool kids are doing it, like you ;D



    In the end, to be fair, I think both sides have their pros and cons, I'm just leaning pretty far to the no more Pokemon side. I think 12 is plenty for any gym. I would accept Neon's idea of picking between a WC and extra Pokemon and if we did that also perhaps using MK's idea of banning duplicate Pokemon. OKAY I'M DONE NOW.
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  12. #42
    Stay Classy The Jr. Trainer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    ITT: everyone repeating everyone repeating everyone repeating everyone

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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jr. Trainer View Post
    ITT: everyone repeating everyone repeating everyone repeating everyone
    I'm going to avoid that and just answer a few questions, seeing as this is mostly wrapped up.

    Quote Originally Posted by WinterVines View Post
    I fail to see how 'tell the Gym leader to get better, that's their job' is a real solid argument, but opinion is an opinion.

    I think it'd be interesting to implement additional mons on the lineup to allow for those times when they'd be useful. Usually, even if a leader uses the best few mons of their type, it doesn't mean that those mons can all defend against common threats. But, if those leaders don't have their mons on their lineup (like applying for), they're seen as idiots and sometimes not chosen. Since we're in the fifth generation of Pokemon, I don't think fifteen is too many mons, as that's only three per generation, and each generation has added a large pool of new mechanics, moves, and mons to it.

    It might even make gym battles more fun and encourage people to do them, if they can try out some new things without having to take out their standard gym mons to do it. Since we have a lower battles count as of late (tho I think that battle activity is rising, cos I've reffed a lot this pay period and watched quite a few battles as well).

    I'm not going to really argue about it, because I know WTP will just say no anyway, cos he's in charge, but that's my two cents. It would help leaders, but maybe not all. That's why it would just be an option.
    That is both untrue and insulting. I told Chainy to post a thread even though I disagreed. I wanted to hear what the rest of URPG has to say. Of course, I oppose it and I am going to argue against it. Its not only my opinion that I care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickKaiser View Post
    With the issue on wildcards, could Monbrey and WTP please elaborate on why Salamence is not a Fire Wild Card?
    We're phasing out silly wild cards, that's why. Dragonite is getting the boot too, even though it makes more sense than Mence anyway. Mence learns a total of 3-4 fire moves, which are all very common.

  14. #44
    Virbank Gym Leader WinterVines's Avatar
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    That's why I said I wasn't arguing; I said I was just going to state my two cents, because ultimately you've made your decision from what you said before. Therefore I wasn't going round and round with everyone since everyone isn't who makes the decision. That would be silly, as Jr pointed out.
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    Default Re: Proposal: Increase Gym Mon Limit

    Quote Originally Posted by WinterVines View Post
    That's why I said I wasn't arguing; I said I was just going to state my two cents, because ultimately you've made your decision from what you said before. Therefore I wasn't going round and round with everyone since everyone isn't who makes the decision. That would be silly, as Jr pointed out.
    Just because I have a defined opinion about something does not mean I have decided on a plan of action. That's part of being a Mod and a Section Head. I can hold opinions, but ultimately, I'm supposed to do what the URPG public approves of. An exception, where they are asking for something horrifically self-destructive, is very rare.

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