Making speed ties private

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    Registered User Elamite's Avatar
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    Default Making speed ties private

    So I was reffing a battle, and I found that there was an instance where one battler assumed there should be a speed tie, but because of a hidden item, there wasn't one. However, because I didn't publicly roll the die, the battler knew that there was no speed tie, and an item must be involved.

    The problem with this, is that it does not accurately represent the way the games are played. In the games, you cannot tell whether your opponent is faster because of a speed tie, or because of pure speed. Therefore I would like to suggest changing speed rolls to a private ordeal.

    For things like FFAs, I don't think this is really necessary seeing as items are removed anyway. Also regular battles without items don't really need this rule enforced either. Anyway, let me know what you think.

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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    So I was reffing a battle, and I found that there was an instance where one battler assumed there should be a speed tie, but because of a hidden item, there wasn't one. However, because I didn't publicly roll the die, the battler knew that there was no speed tie, and an item must be involved.

    The problem with this, is that it does not accurately represent the way the games are played. In the games, you cannot tell whether your opponent is faster because of a speed tie, or because of pure speed. Therefore I would like to suggest changing speed rolls to a private ordeal.

    For things like FFAs, I don't think this is really necessary seeing as items are removed anyway. Also regular battles without items don't really need this rule enforced either. Anyway, let me know what you think.
    It is now law.

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    Angry about Outer Heavens ChainReaction01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Can I propose that all random rolls be like this? For example, a Revo match I was in a while back. My Scrafty got paralyzed, and my opponent was able to deduce that its Ability was Moxie because Intimidate hadn't activated upon entry and there was no roll to check for Shed Skin activation. Something that you couldn't do in game.
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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Quote Originally Posted by ChainReaction01 View Post
    Can I propose that all random rolls be like this? For example, a Revo match I was in a while back. My Scrafty got paralyzed, and my opponent was able to deduce that its Ability was Moxie because Intimidate hadn't activated upon entry and there was no roll to check for Shed Skin activation. Something that you couldn't do in game.
    Shed Skin was already made private, if I remember correctly. Just how recent was this?

    EDIT: And yes, all random rolls could be like this. The only issue is, the reason rolls were made public in the first place was to avoid favoritism. It really depends how comfortable people are with this. Perhaps we could have a secrecy clause added and enforce it in E4/Champ/LD/Gym?

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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Quote Originally Posted by We Taste Pies... View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChainReaction01 View Post
    Can I propose that all random rolls be like this? For example, a Revo match I was in a while back. My Scrafty got paralyzed, and my opponent was able to deduce that its Ability was Moxie because Intimidate hadn't activated upon entry and there was no roll to check for Shed Skin activation. Something that you couldn't do in game.
    Shed Skin was already made private, if I remember correctly. Just how recent was this?
    Oh, my bad. It was a while ago, as in months. Actually, now that you mention it, I think I remember bitching loud enough at the time that something was done about it xD

    *blush*

    I don't really buy this favouritism thing. I mean, the general idea is that all refs are trustworthy. If someone isn't trustworthy, yank their license. Case in point: there's a random number generator right on the calc. Since it's there, it's a logical to assume that we can use it. Using it results in no witnesses.

    I guess my point is if you're worried about ref honesty, there's three ways to go about it: don't appoint untrustworthy refs, keep all chance rolls public, or have some kind of tertiary chat for witnessing purposes.

    I wouldn't be against some kind of secrecy clause, but that's up to you Battle buffs in terms of suitability and implementation.
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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Rolls such as those could be made private, but as WTP stated, some people are uncomfortable and feel that refs are biased towards one person over another. If there's any suspicions that this is the case, then report said ref or do further investigation. In the end, this type of thing all comes down to trust, but I believe that the refs we have (well, the active ones we have left) are all trustworthy.

    Example, stuff such as Confusion isn't rolled in public, it's rolled outside of chat in either another chat or ref calc. People trust refs when it comes down to stuff like this, so why not other rolls?

    Edit: Secrecy Clause sounds interesting. The default could be on (which allows refs to do rolls outside of chat), but could be turned off upon choosing rules. I see no reason why it would be turned off in the first place, and this clause doesn't have to be enforced in my opinion.


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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Quote Originally Posted by ChainReaction01 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by We Taste Pies... View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ChainReaction01 View Post
    Can I propose that all random rolls be like this? For example, a Revo match I was in a while back. My Scrafty got paralyzed, and my opponent was able to deduce that its Ability was Moxie because Intimidate hadn't activated upon entry and there was no roll to check for Shed Skin activation. Something that you couldn't do in game.
    Shed Skin was already made private, if I remember correctly. Just how recent was this?
    Oh, my bad. It was a while ago, as in months. Actually, now that you mention it, I think I remember bitching loud enough at the time that something was done about it xD

    *blush*

    I don't really buy this favouritism thing. I mean, the general idea is that all refs are trustworthy. If someone isn't trustworthy, yank their license. Case in point: there's a random number generator right on the calc. Since it's there, it's a logical to assume that we can use it. Using it results in no witnesses.

    Thats the entire reason public rolls are done in the URPG period. To avoid corruption. As far as telling which refs are trustworthy, its not like we can shove a thermometer up their ass and figure out if they're trustworthy or not(It'd make my job easier =P). The random number generator was originally added to the calc a few years ago for sleep rolls.

    I guess my point is if you're worried about ref honesty, there's three ways to go about it: don't appoint untrustworthy refs, keep all chance rolls public, or have some kind of tertiary chat for witnessing purposes.

    I wouldn't be against some kind of secrecy clause, but that's up to you Battle buffs in terms of suitability and implementation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fierce Deity View Post
    Rolls such as those could be made private, but as WTP stated, some people are uncomfortable and feel that refs are biased towards one person over another. If there's any suspicions that this is the case, then report said ref or do further investigation. In the end, this type of thing all comes down to trust, but I believe that the refs we have (well, the active ones we have left) are all trustworthy.

    Example, stuff such as Confusion isn't rolled in public, it's rolled outside of chat in either another chat or ref calc. People trust refs when it comes down to stuff like this, so why not other rolls?
    The reason its done that way because giving away a sleep roll is a major strategic issue. Battlers would be able to plan their moves out to fit the exact number of sleep turns. Still, this system dates back to before the addition of items and possibly even abilities. It may be time for a structural change in reffing.

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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Well if we're not supposed to be using that random number generator for dice rolls, for the love of God remove it. I've been using it for months and I don't wanna get told off for doing so >.< lol
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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Sorry I haven't been in on this talk but I like WTP's idea of the Secrecy Clause. That way, it'll be an option to make things different and not forced on anybody
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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    I think the dead give-away your ability was Moxie would be when you got a +1 ATK bonus for KOing him, or that after so many turns, your still paralyzed. :s Same for speed-ties: if it's been ages and you've never moved first, you'll know their item anyway. Worst comes to worst, process of elimination. Most mons have about 2 or 3 items they work well with max, and after a few turns, it becomes obvious anyway. No point assuming a Kingdra's been given an Occa berry (extreme example, I know, but you get the point).

    Seriously, stuff like Life Orb and Choice Band/Specs already give away your item, so why's this a huge deal? I can see why people would want it, but I can't see it being gamechanging.
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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Quote Originally Posted by PichuBoy View Post
    I think the dead give-away your ability was Moxie would be when you got a +1 ATK bonus for KOing him, or that after so many turns, your still paralyzed. :s Same for speed-ties: if it's been ages and you've never moved first, you'll know their item anyway. Worst comes to worst, process of elimination. Most mons have about 2 or 3 items they work well with max, and after a few turns, it becomes obvious anyway. No point assuming a Kingdra's been given an Occa berry (extreme example, I know, but you get the point).

    Seriously, stuff like Life Orb and Choice Band/Specs already give away your item, so why's this a huge deal? I can see why people would want it, but I can't see it being gamechanging.
    The thing is, there is little reason NOT to do it as well.

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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    >Can see why people would want it
    >Isnt gamechanging

    Seems like perfect arguments to implement it to me.

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    Registered User Elamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Also, this is something I didn't post, because I wasn't sure whether trustworthiness would become an issue or not, but I guess it's worth mentioning.

    As far as I can tell, forum battles already implement random rolls in a private chat, so to speak. And I've never heard of an instance of anyone feeling favored against in that instance.

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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    Also, this is something I didn't post, because I wasn't sure whether trustworthiness would become an issue or not, but I guess it's worth mentioning.

    As far as I can tell, forum battles already implement random rolls in a private chat, so to speak. And I've never heard of an instance of anyone feeling favored against in that instance.
    To my knowledge, they've been public, much like HP rolls. They were supposed to be anyway.

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    Default Re: Making speed ties private

    Quote Originally Posted by We Taste Pies... View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    Also, this is something I didn't post, because I wasn't sure whether trustworthiness would become an issue or not, but I guess it's worth mentioning.

    As far as I can tell, forum battles already implement random rolls in a private chat, so to speak. And I've never heard of an instance of anyone feeling favored against in that instance.
    To my knowledge, they've been public, much like HP rolls. They were supposed to be anyway.
    Now, I do most of mine in the blast chat, but before, I used the calc roller and posted what the roll was.
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