Imprison - Broken

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  1. #1
    Registered User derian's Avatar
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    Default Imprison - Broken

    The move imprison is waaay overpowered, in FFA's particularly.
    This single move prevents any pokemon from using the same moves as the user, and with the expanded movepool of the URPG that can be literally an entire pokemons movepool (if it's the same pokemon for example).

    My suggestion to make this move less broken are one of or more of three things:

    Restrict it to a single target, rather then all pokemon.

    Make it so they only can't use those moves against the pokemon that used Imprison (still a bit broken for non-FFAs)

    Make it so they choose 4 moves when they use Imprison, and it only applies to those 4 moves.

    The third option is closer to the GBA use of the move, since pokemon only have 4 moves (well, 3 moves besides imprison). These are just ideas, and maybe you guys have a better idea or don't think it's broken. But in my opinion it seriously needs to be changed.
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    No Scrub Hushie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    Gonna have to agree

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    Insanity is the one truth Senzura's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    I would have to agree with this


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    Licensed Scientician DrStubbsberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    agreed, and surprised it's taken this long for any of us to realise this
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    No need for the disco Raves's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    Imprison is a powerful move in FFAs, I've yet to see how it works albeit since I've not been in an ffa with one. However, if what you say is right, then it seems broken.

    In short, let's run a scenario. We've got a Scyther, Sneasel and Gallade in a FFA. Because Gallade is slower, it would seem likely that the two Swords Dancers would ruin him. However, by stroke of luck, they decide to simply screw around, allowing Gallade to use Imprison. Imprison affects both Scyther and Sneasel, blocking their power to dance and do whatever Gallade can, crippling both pokemon and letting Gaylade SubSD them to oblivion, excluding the fact that Scyther can just TechniWing Gallade to death regardless.

    As far as I can see, a couple of Imprisoners will fuck over the entire metagame, in spite of the low numbers of pokemon that can use the move. Seriously, only the Vulpix family, Stantler, Ralts and Bronzor lines learn it naturally, with the Grimer, Shuppet, Duskull and Misdreavus family alongside SPiritomb getting it as an egg move. Of these, let's look at the moves they block commonly used in FFAs, including popular TMs and emphasise the important ones with all caps...

    VULPIX: Quick Attack, Will-o-wisp, CONFUSE RAY, FLAMETHROWER, Extrasensory, FIRE BLAST, TOXIC, HIDDEN POWER, Sunny Day, PROTECT, Dig, Facade, OVERHEAT, DARK PULSE, SLEEP TALK, SUBSTITUTE, Hypnosis, Flare Blitz, ENERGY BALL, NASTY PLOT.

    STANTLER: CONFUSE RAY, Hypnosis, CALM MIND, TOXIC, HIDDEN POWER, PROTECT, Rain Dance, THUNDERBOLT, THUNDER, EARTHQUAKE, PSYCHIC, SHADOW BALL, Sucker Punch, Signal Beam, MEGAHORN.

    RALTS: CALM MIND, PSYCHIC, Charm, Hypnosis, TOXIC, HP, TAUNT, THUNDERBOLT, PSYCHIC, SHADOW BALL, Torment, THUNDER WAVE, SLEEP TALK, GRASS KNOT, SUBSTITUTE, ELEMENTAL PUNCHES, ENCORE, Shadow Sneak.

    GALLADE: Gets ALL of the above plus: Leaf Blade, NIGHT SLASH, Slash, SWORDS DANCE, Psycho Cut, CLOSE COMBAT, FOCUS PUNCH, BULK UP, Brick Break, AERIAL ACE, Stone Edge, Rock Slide, X-Scissor, VACUUM WAVE.

    BRONZOR: EQ, CM, TOXIC, HP, PSYCHIC, SB, Sandstorm, EXPLOSION, ROCK POLISH, AncientPower, Iron Head.

    Those above get it naturally, the following run it as Egg Moves...

    GRIMER: Sludge Bomb, Gunk Shot, FOCUS BLAST, CURSE.

    The other pokes don't really matter, though Dusknoir's movepool is almost as expansive as that of Gallade.


    As you can see, the best Imprison user by far is Gallade, who can shut down half the actual FFA's main firepower with a single move. By limiting Imprison to one target, we prevent one sided rapes.

  6. #6
    Registered User derian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    Yeah limiting Imprison to one target seems to make the most sense to me too. After all, in FFA's moves that target multiple opponents only target one usually (like Heat Wave, Earthquake etc), so it's not unreasonable to make it the same way with Imprison.
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    No need for the disco Raves's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    I'd think my post makes the full argument to a major limit on Imprison tbh. A few pokes get it, but those that do have insane movepools.

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    a Pidge's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    First of all, Imprison doesn't target anyone, think of it as a field effect like Rain Dance or Sunny Day.

    Quote Originally Posted by derian View Post
    The move imprison is waaay overpowered, in FFA's particularly.
    This single move prevents any pokemon from using the same moves as the user, and with the expanded movepool of the URPG that can be literally an entire pokemons movepool (if it's the same pokemon for example).
    Sorry, but your argument works both ways. With the expanded movepool of the URPG, Imprison becomes less helpful, as the Pokemon affected by it are more likely to have a few hard hitting attacks still. If you are using a Pokemon with Imprison, that's the risk you are willing to take. If there is someone else in the game that is doing to same, and he/she uses Imprison before you, maybe you shouldn't of risked using that Pokemon yourself. Again, yes, using an Imprison Pokemon can screw yourself over, but so can choosing Shedinja, Caterpie, or Scizor in a Sunny Day FFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by derian View Post
    My suggestion to make this move less broken are one of or more of three things:

    Restrict it to a single target, rather then all pokemon.

    Make it so they only can't use those moves against the pokemon that used Imprison (still a bit broken for non-FFAs)

    Make it so they choose 4 moves when they use Imprison, and it only applies to those 4 moves.

    The third option is closer to the GBA use of the move, since pokemon only have 4 moves (well, 3 moves besides imprison). These are just ideas, and maybe you guys have a better idea or don't think it's broken. But in my opinion it seriously needs to be changed.
    The rest of your post is implying that Imprison really is broken, when it's not.


    Quote Originally Posted by derian View Post
    Yeah limiting Imprison to one target seems to make the most sense to me too. After all, in FFA's moves that target multiple opponents only target one usually (like Heat Wave, Earthquake etc), so it's not unreasonable to make it the same way with Imprison.
    Check the top of my post.

    Additional thoughts: Imprison is a unique move that I believe should be able to used to its maximum potential in an FFA. Not only is it fun for the user, but it can also make the battle more offensive oriented as moves like Substitute and Protect become unavailable. Imprison is not unstoppable. In fact, using Imprison can really be risky, as you will have a bounty on your head. Did you know you can get rid of Imprison just by knocking out the Pokemon using it? You can also stop Imprison from occurring in the first place by Taunt or knocking the Pokemon out before it moves.
    Last edited by Pidge; 17th May 2010 at 07:13 PM.

  9. #9
    Registered User derian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    Why are you exaggerating the power of this move when you haven't even seen it in action? I think you will surprised how underwhelming it actually is.
    I've personally seen it in action twice, and both times it was pretty gamebreaking. In the second case it rendered two Dusknoirs almost completely useless (it was used by a third Dusknoir). One was literally forced to Struggle the rest of the battle. It also prevented the rest of the pokemon from using a good percentage of their moves.
    The difference with weather effects is they can be useful to other pokemon, not just the user. The only pokemon that benefits from Imprison is the user.
    If hypothetically a Dusknoir is in a battle against another Dusknoir in a regular battle, say they're both down to their last pokemon (highly unlikely I know), one uses Imprison. The other one has no chance of winning, because all of it's moves have been disabled. If the Dusknoir that uses Imprison has all of their TM moves learned, there's especially no chance.

    I hadn't even considered Gallade.
    You have to think about something: Not only does it prevent others from using the moves, the user can still use those moves (of course). So, everyone else would be crippled while Gallade would be free to do whatever it pleases.
    Although Gallade doesn't have the best speed, in FFA's there are enough pokemon that it could easily not be the target of attacks and be free to set up Imprison.
    My point is, one pokemon should not be able to have such a drastic effect on a single FFA with one move (that's why moves that hit multiple opponents don't hit everyone like earthquake, right?). At least with Earthquake, more then one pokemon could use it. Once a pokemon uses Imprison, no one else can.
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  10. #10
    I will follow her Sota's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    It's the refs decision if they want to ban Imprison or not, just remind them if you think it should be banned.

    It's their choice, there's no reason to restrict. Let's not go around making up stuff for moves okay? Yeah.

    That's like banning Haze or something. Seriously, it's not a big deal. Using Imprison also makes you an automatic target.

    It's hardly an issue, don't make a big deal out of it. And it's certainly not broken at all outside of an FFA.

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    a Pidge's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    Quote Originally Posted by derian View Post
    I've personally seen it in action twice, and both times it was pretty gamebreaking. In the second case it rendered two Dusknoirs almost completely useless (it was used by a third Dusknoir). One was literally forced to Struggle the rest of the battle. It also prevented the rest of the pokemon from using a good percentage of their moves.
    The difference with weather effects is they can be useful to other pokemon, not just the user. The only pokemon that benefits from Imprison is the user.
    No, more than the user can benefit from Imprison. If a Pokemon is only weak to ground moves, like the common Earthquake, then a Jolteon would gladly welcome a Dusknoir with Earthquake to use Imprison. However, Jolteon may miss the use of Substitute, if it already doesn't have one up, unlikely though, since it's faster, and Substitute is a common first move. Imprison can help and hurt Pokemon, just like weather effects.

    Please, name some specific Pokemon that a specific Imprison user can screw over. Even if you name a few, that's no big deal. Maybe if you name a lot, it would be a problem.

    If you are using Scizor, you risk being screwed over completely by a Charizard. If you are using Swampert, you risk being KOd first turn by Roserade. If you are using Clefable, you risk being eliminated by Infernape. etc. Those Pokemon can completely shut down other Pokemon. Just because Dusknoir's Imprison shuts down another Dusknoir doesn't mean it should be banned or modified. I have already said that if you are using an Imprison Pokemon, you are willing to take the chance of being locked up by the same Pokemon someone else controls.

    Quote Originally Posted by derian View Post
    If hypothetically a Dusknoir is in a battle against another Dusknoir in a regular battle, say they're both down to their last pokemon (highly unlikely I know), one uses Imprison. The other one has no chance of winning, because all of it's moves have been disabled. If the Dusknoir that uses Imprison has all of their TM moves learned, there's especially no chance.
    Okay, so Dusknoir can counter Dusknoir. It's Pokemon, some Pokemon will be able to beat others. In this case it will be up to a speed tie. Similar to Dragonite vs. Dragonite or Infernape vs. Infernape.


    Quote Originally Posted by derian View Post
    I hadn't even considered Gallade.
    You have to think about something: Not only does it prevent others from using the moves, the user can still use those moves (of course). So, everyone else would be crippled while Gallade would be free to do whatever it pleases.
    Although Gallade doesn't have the best speed, in FFA's there are enough pokemon that it could easily not be the target of attacks and be free to set up Imprison.
    Crippled is hardly the word. Again, I am requesting specific examples of what and how many Pokemon are at a great disadvantage by the single use of Imprison by a specific Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by derian View Post
    My point is, one pokemon should not be able to have such a drastic effect on a single FFA with one move (that's why moves that hit multiple opponents don't hit everyone like earthquake, right?). At least with Earthquake, more then one pokemon could use it. Once a pokemon uses Imprison, no one else can.
    It's not a drastic effect. No single Imprison user's movepool is large enough to make the move overpowered. Things like Perish Song and Intimidate can be drastic. The former KO-ing all Pokemon in a few turns, the latter highly discouraging the use of physical Pokemon, limiting a welcome variety in an FFA.

    The reason Earthquake is reffed like that is mainly because it would be too tedious for the ref to calculate all of those hits. Furthermore, it used to be believed (in RSE) that moves that hit more than one target would have their damage split. For example, Earthquake divided among 10 Pokemon would mean 10 ground physical attacks on every target. This means not only would it be tedious to ref, but it would hardly dish any considerable damage. With multi-target moves now being known to actually deal 75% of max power to all targets, instead of being divided, I may consider those moves to hit all Pokemon, since they may actually be of use in my FFAs.
    Last edited by Pidge; 15th May 2010 at 06:58 PM.

  12. #12
    I'm Zombilicious Zombie Muse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    Overreacting sore losers are overreactive sore losers. You'd think if it were this big of a problem we'd have banned it by now since imprison was introduced a long while back.

  13. #13
    Registered User derian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    I'm not overreacting, I just felt like it was broken and needed to be fixed :P gosh guys calm down. That's what the trainers court is for isn't it?
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  14. #14
    Registered User Wrave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    I am with Pidge with this one. Not only because I have a mon with Imprison.

  15. #15
    pikachu in a highchair We Taste Pies...'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Imprison - Broken

    Imprison being banned... lol

    Lets ban encore too, we can't use any moves but one if we're encored! Taunt and Torment restrict move use too, thats SOOOOO UNFAIR!!!! Protect doesn't let our physical moves do anything, lets ditch that too!!!! OH EM GEE, he just Snatched my Substitute, causing me to get KOed! BAN SNATCH LAKJFLKEWJFOI!!!!!!!1111!!!

    Imprison is basically the patent office of moves, and without the patent office PEOPLE WOULD COPY YOUR IDEAS!!!

    This needs no restriction or regulation. How many single battles have you EVER seen this used in? Not many, because it isn't too handy. FFA's make EVERYTHING more annoying.

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