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Thread: Expanding the Starter Kit

  1. #61
    URPG Moderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    Monbrey, I know you think that making 3 or 4 mons the limit is sort of clunky, but we already have a sort of clunky rule anyway with the fully evolved only if it's your only mon. So I don't think it is that much worse. Though I definitely agree that the suggestions of Alaska and Sormeki will do little to solve the problem; a fixated and firm stance on the problem is, in my opinion, the better way to approach it.
    Fair point towards the clunky rule thing. And yeah, any argument towards common sense or the honour system is pointless, because that's what we have now and it isn't working.

    This isn't a case where there are specific people constantly throwing basics. EVERYONE does it, and the community has fallen to a point where it is considered acceptable and even normal for this to be how basic battles are carried out. However, the example you brought up does seem like massive abuse, so it will be looked into.

  2. #62
    Du Edoc'sil Ash K.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    But why would we lower the price of Pokemon instead of just giving them more money? The latter is a much easier solution. Also, I don't really think we should encourage new members to buy mons like Ratatta. I mean I'm all for using lesser used mons, but not until they have a grasp of the battling system. I think instead of making them buy a Pokemon they're going to regret later in their stats, we should encourage them to make smart decisions and allow them to buy good Pokemon like Bagon and Beldum.

    Furthermore, not that I want this to turn into a Basics discussion, I think leaving it up to the ref to give/not give money to competitors is sort of putting the ref in an awkward position. Refs could easily give their friends money and not people they don't like. Especially since you don't have to put what happened in the battle in the log.
    I KNOW! MAKE EVERYONE LOG LIKE I DO! *shot*

    We should start discouraging the "permas should always lose" because, if anything, it makes it way too easy to just use basics money to buy more Pokémon, which is one of the things we seem to be trying to avoid. Currently you may as well list the price for something like Mareep as "-$5,000". If nothing else at least make it widely known that regardless of how your opponent feels, you are allowed to try and win. Most people nowadays will rage at you if you try and win with a perma, even if it's as fast as their plan. I'm not saying everyone should Cosmic Power, Minimize, and Recover their Clefairy to Def/SpDef/Eva+6 and stall it out, that's stupid. But if both of you 2HKO and you're faster, you should be allowed to go for it. Basics should be people actually trying, to avoid people buying basics just because "I know I'll win with this, and it sorta seems maybe possibly useful at some awfully distant point in the future, so I'll buy it and get free money from it". Without a guarantee of winning the basic battles, there are only a few Pokémon you will be certain of getting your money back on, and most of them require evolution items. Head ref even says "permas always lose" is stupid. Put basics back to the way they were.

    The thing people do seem to forgetting as far as this whole discussion goes, let's say I start with a Togepi. Most people won't think to use Hustle and Double-Edge, so they'll probably lose. That leaves $8,000 and a need for two $3,000 evolution items. I'd be surprised to see a new player who buys another Pokémon before the evolution items if they have the needed battles. So now they've got $2,000 and a Togekiss. Yeah I suppose they could do a bunch of 1v1s with Togekiss, but there does need to be some point where you can't 1v1 with fully evolved anymore, something that convinces people who try to outsmart the system (or even the opposite: people who just, for whatever reason, don't want/think about a second Pokémon) that it's better to just get a second Pokémon.

    Mubz' idea of a discount seems the best idea.
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    [18:13] alaskapigeon1: and you have OCD that rivals monk's
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  3. #63
    Head of the URPG HKim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    We can remind new trainers it's easy to get new Pokemon.

    A relatively terrible and short story with some semblance of a plot will earn you a Magikarp. It's the most noteworthy example because it evolves into an awesome Gyrados.

    There are other ways as well.

  4. #64
    URPG Moderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    I KNOW! MAKE EVERYONE LOG LIKE I DO! *shot*
    As much as I love your unique logging method, I recall a E4 battle you reffed that just looked like a wall of text. I tried to read it and... yeah. *shoots*

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    We should start discouraging the "permas should always lose" because, if anything, it makes it way too easy to just use basics money to buy more Pokémon, which is one of the things we seem to be trying to avoid. Currently you may as well list the price for something like Mareep as "-$5,000". If nothing else at least make it widely known that regardless of how your opponent feels, you are allowed to try and win. Most people nowadays will rage at you if you try and win with a perma, even if it's as fast as their plan. I'm not saying everyone should Cosmic Power, Minimize, and Recover their Clefairy to Def/SpDef/Eva+6 and stall it out, that's stupid. But if both of you 2HKO and you're faster, you should be allowed to go for it. Basics should be people actually trying, to avoid people buying basics just because "I know I'll win with this, and it sorta seems maybe possibly useful at some awfully distant point in the future, so I'll buy it and get free money from it". Without a guarantee of winning the basic battles, there are only a few Pokémon you will be certain of getting your money back on, and most of them require evolution items. Head ref even says "permas always lose" is stupid. Put basics back to the way they were.
    A thousand times, this. The only valid reason for keeping basics is if you intend to LEGITIMATELY battle with them. By this, I mean things like Eviolite P2, Prankster Murkrow, Scyther, any basic that can otherwise hold it's own in a regular battle. Adaptability Eevee on the other hand rapes basics when people are trying to evo, but wouldn't stand a chance in a proper battle. That's kinda where I draw the line on what acceptable basic usage is. Something that sits there to earn you cash is abuse. Something that has valid usage in every regular battle you undertake is not. As far as I'm concerned, losing with a permabasic is still abuse. $5,000 FOR NOT EVEN TRYING TO BATTLE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    The thing people do seem to forgetting as far as this whole discussion goes, let's say I start with a Togepi. Most people won't think to use Hustle and Double-Edge, so they'll probably lose. That leaves $8,000 and a need for two $3,000 evolution items. I'd be surprised to see a new player who buys another Pokémon before the evolution items if they have the needed battles. So now they've got $2,000 and a Togekiss. Yeah I suppose they could do a bunch of 1v1s with Togekiss, but there does need to be some point where you can't 1v1 with fully evolved anymore, something that convinces people who try to outsmart the system (or even the opposite: people who just, for whatever reason, don't want/think about a second Pokémon) that it's better to just get a second Pokémon.

    Mubz' idea of a discount seems the best idea.
    Mubz's idea does seem like the most viable change, however I still don't see one as being necessary. Not once have I seen someone stick to only a single Pokemon for the sake of breaking the system - there's no point breaking it if you can't battle against anyone in any competitive sense. That's why we allow people to continue battling with their one and only Pokemon - it earns them enough cash to buy their second Pokemon. I can't recall a single time I've ever seen this early-game system abused.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    The thing people do seem to forgetting as far as this whole discussion goes, let's say I start with a Togepi. Most people won't think to use Hustle and Double-Edge, so they'll probably lose. That leaves $8,000 and a need for two $3,000 evolution items. I'd be surprised to see a new player who buys another Pokémon before the evolution items if they have the needed battles. So now they've got $2,000 and a Togekiss. Yeah I suppose they could do a bunch of 1v1s with Togekiss, but there does need to be some point where you can't 1v1 with fully evolved anymore, something that convinces people who try to outsmart the system (or even the opposite: people who just, for whatever reason, don't want/think about a second Pokémon) that it's better to just get a second Pokémon.

    Mubz' idea of a discount seems the best idea.
    As someone who is fairly new let me share my view, in regards to Ash's above statement his right and what's worse is I found the learning curve for URPG to be significantly higher than say for WiFi battles and this is due to the anime style battles where mons are not limited to just 4 moves this will cause most people engaging in 1v1's to lose even if there there opponent is at a type disadvantage. Now I've been around now for a month and a half and I'm still astounded by the range of moves some pokemon learn and it does catch people off guard. The other option is if the more experienced player "Goes easy" on there opponent now how would this be any different to throwing basics, I argue that it isn't.

    There is actually an argument to be made for the throwing of basics, since I joined I have noticed a decline in activity now some of this has to be down to lack of retention of new members as there are several people I have seen request starters but never see or hear from again. Most peoples first experience of URPG is basic evo battles for there first mon you really want this to be a positive experience and the ultimate positive would be a win for the newbie this would probably increase retention slightly. Basics are very repetative battles and with starter mons you have a limited move pool in which to mess around with so say you lose all 10 of your evo battles it happens but your feeling plucky and you carry on you want to get another mon and you figure (as most people would) that the easiest and quickest way is the mart (its also the method of least effort and most reward and so the one people will go for first especially before there knowledge of the different areas of urpg develops) You now go find someone to challenge for some 1v1's well you only have one mon and they likely have a few to choose from (so the newb is at an immediate disadvantage) after a month and a half I have a few mons with a healthy amount of em's giving me more variety in how I take down the newbs mon. so say he wants to get a Torterra using Ash's example above chances are that poor guy is going to sit through another 11 losses at 1v1 to be able to afford his next mon. It just makes for a depressing and disheartening first experience of urpg

    on the note of permabasics I have one just because it seems to be the done thing, pick a mon with pickup and keep it unevolved and then hopefully get lucky (and hey if you get pickup and say choose leftovers you as the opponent have already made 6K in terms of items, your already doing quite well why deprive the newb)

  6. #66
    Du Edoc'sil Ash K.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Suggestion: Reduce/eliminate pay for person with perma but still encourage them to try and win... MAYBE do so a bit less for the other person.

    Also, possibly ban items and starting weather in basics, to make it less abusable.
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    Last edited by Ash K.; 25th June 2012 at 01:57 PM.
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    [18:13] alaskapigeon1: and you have OCD that rivals monk's
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  7. #67
    URPG Moderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    Suggestion: Reduce/eliminate pay for person with perma but still encourage them to try and win... MAYBE do so a bit less for the other person.
    As much as I agree that the perma maybe shouldn't get paid, it also makes it virtually impossible to get them to try and win. Why bother at all if you're not getting paid. It only seems like more incentive to throw for evo's sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    Also, possibly ban items and starting weather in basics, to make it less abusable.
    While it would help abuse, it ruins any possibility of people who actually want to have real battles with their basics.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    I still don't see how it's hard to keep track of people with more than 4 mons - if someone's suspected then check the date they got their 5th mon and check the date they got money from 1v1s. Even then, most of the time, it's the members who have loads of mons that abuse basics anyway.

    I still think this is the best option - it stops elder members being able to abuse basics, while still leaving them open for the newbies.
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  9. #69
    Du Edoc'sil Ash K.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Expanding on the current state of mind of the general population of URPG:

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    [18:13] alaskapigeon1: and you have OCD that rivals monk's
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  10. #70
    a Pidge's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    while we're offtopic

    There used to be a time where there wasn't really such thing as 'permabasics'. If I recall correctly, almost all basic battles were between two Pokemon that needed experience. I don't think anyone ever thought of keeping a Pokemon unevolved for the purpose of basic battling, but I could be wrong. Now there are people with permanent suicidal basics (Zigzagoon, Cascoon) and some of the stronger ones (Eevee [holy shit this thing is annoying to ref for if they use Take Down because you have to roll accuracy, do recoil, and Adaptability for a basic battle xD, just buy TM Return], Scyther). I'd say the people that use the latter aren't really cancerous, since they are trying to win, but something about the former does seem inherently wrong, although technically legal.

    Yet finding someone else that has a Pokemon that needs experience as well may not be as easy anymore. And even if both Pokemon need experience, that doesn't guarantee both parties will try their hardest. Most basic battles will be one sided, there may not even be a point of trying. There's no clear cut way to even determine if someone is trying.

    It seems that basic battles are a chore now. People just want to do them as fast as possible, and the battling part is meaningless. A basic battle is just sending a random move while the opponent uses Belly Drum twice, or copy pasting your strongest move twice. Some refs even give the battlers the convenience of 'locking' a move, as if the process wasn't easy enough. If it's just that simple, why not just let people evolve Pokemon immediately? For 'flavor' reasons, it would make sense to battle to evolve. But regarding 'flavor', it doesn't make sense to do the same shit over and over, or to purposely let your Pokemon faint repeatedly.

    Just like the Pokemon in them, basic battles over time have evolved to become quicker, more efficient, and less cute. And in the end, I don't really blame the people that make it that way. I blame how terrible the system is (that's URPG for ya). You more or less get the same result any way you choose to do a basic battle: a fully evolved Pokemon and/or some extra cash.

    If you're looking for me to take a side in this post regarding throwing basics, you won't really find one, but rather I'm taking a side against the system. Everything else is just observation.

  11. #71
    noble roar Buoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ash K. View Post
    Expanding on the current state of mind of the general population of URPG:

    Whine some more, please. I'm not going to ref 'proper' basics when it was that late at night for me. ._. I would have reffed them otherwise, but seriously, you're not going to achieve anything by trying to go, "o look these ppls r so bad they didnt want to do it n i was doin it rite kk!!!!!"

    Plus, we both left after you sent Frustration, not Fake Out. facts str8 pls

  12. #72
    You can just call me N. Natural Harmonia Gropius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    I'm fine with it, as long as we all get an extra 3,500 cash.

    because I'm a newbie :(

    Deal with it.

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