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  1. #16
    Unregistered user Mubz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    With the starter pack you get a little coupon that takes 50% off your first Pokemon purchase at the mart.

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    Airik 7:42 pm
    i just hope that when puberty hits he grows out of pokemon

  2. #17
    URPG Moderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    I think we're also forgetting that newbies can continue battling with their fully evolved Pokemon and still get money. As long as someone's fully evolved Pokemon is their only one, the battle still pays. If there was any cap on the amount of money a new player could possibly get, then yes, the starting amount might need boosting. But as it stands, nothing stops them from keeping a single Pokemon until they have $100k.

    I actually find it quite sad to see what a joke basic battles have become. Maybe it was just becayse I had the advantage when I joined of a mass of other newbies, but we all battled our basics to win, not purely to get money or evolve them. It was our only Pokemon, and we treasured it. The idea that evo battles or basics for money battles are "strategy" is laughable. At first, I didn't have AIM. I pushed and pushed for Forum battles which I struggled to win with my Charmander/Charmeleon. I picked up extra cash here and there, and had enough to buy a second Pokemon, which from memory was a Torchic. I guess the community is to blame for how common the generic forfeit/evo battle has become. It's no wonder basics have come under such scrutiny. Helping out newbies with extra cash or whatever else gets suggested from time to time is completely fucking pointless while we still have the idiots and douchebags abusing a system that would otherwise fully support them.

    @Mubz
    If I was going to concede to any idea yours would be it. Extra cash is too vague, and I can see lots of newbies just buying a TM for their basic straight away. A half-price coupon has the same effect, targeted exactly where we want it. And it doesn't take a genius to get half price on the most expensive mon, which are the pseudo-legends mentioned earlier as being the most helpful to a new player.

  3. #18
    Registered User Elamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    I don't understand. How many times can you honestly say you've seen a noobie buy a TM for their First Pokemon before buying a second? I can't think of anyone recently. So why would we force noobies to battle more 1v1s after they've completed their basics to get the funds to buy another Pokemon. Also, in the future I think i would prefer if you didn't call mine, and the person who's idea you later said you agreed with, "completely fucking pointless."

    But I do agree that Mubz idea should get the desired effect. Usually officials are reluctant to add things whenever possible, but I guess if there is a fear that new members will spend the extra money on TMs instead of Pokemon a coupon would be a good solution.

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  4. #19
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    I don't understand. How many times can you honestly say you've seen a noobie buy a TM for their First Pokemon before buying a second?
    I did, stupidly. I bought my Nidoking an Earthquake TM, before buying my second Pokemon which was a Zubat. It was two years ago sure, but still.
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  5. #20
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawkes. View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PichuBoy View Post
    You're basically asking us to give 9.5k to newbies.
    Where's the harm in that? what's wrong with giving the newbies more options to kick start their URPG time with more options than we had? if they lost their basics under the current scheme they would have 6.5k at least, even then that's not considering any evolution items, which would bring it down to 3.5k.

    If someone was unfortunate to be in that position then they would have to be do 1v1 Fully Evolved, which as we know is against the rules unless they have no other pokemon. So why not make the rule absolute and abolish the Circumstance that requires the exception?, which is easily done by giving them more money.

    Honestly I see no reason why it shouldn't be considered, It doesn't negatively affect anyone else if they get an extra few 1000...
    The point is, boosting the money gives them no more options than if it wasn't boosted - it's just a lazy fix. As has been said, if the Eevee in Sormeki's example evolved into Espeon, there's not enough for another Pokemon, and all of that person's battles will still pay. Trusting that people won't abuse this by persuading the newbie not to get another Pokemon so the other person can get easy money, where's the problem limiting the newbies?

    There are also Stories, which are a viable way to get mons. Quite a few popular mons sit in the Easiest and Medium categories, so they're not out of reach. Story Mons > Mart mons anyway, it's usually agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    but I guess if there is a fear that new members will spend the extra money on TMs instead of Pokemon a coupon would be a good solution.
    It's not a fear of that, it's the fact that 3k is more than enough. You're pretty much saying "Why should people have to battle to get money?". Oh, I don't know, maybe because that's the whole point of the URPG? :/
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  6. #21
    Registered User Elamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Sorry I think maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that the fear isn't illogical, but I'm saying that it isn't that common of a problem. Also we currently have nothing to fix that problem in the first place. People right now could easily battle a kajillion battles to get infinite money. I don't see how giving them an extra 2000 or 3000 is going to contribute to that sum at all based on your logic.

    I'm not saying people shouldn't have to battle to get money. I'm saying people shouldn't have to do idiotic 1v1s with fully evolved mons to get money at the beginning because the URPG discourages those battles. Giving them an extra 2k or 3k will make those battles less of a necessity, since most people buy a second Pokemon as soon as possible.

    Honestly from what you're saying, it would make most sense to just give them no money, give them a coupon for a free Mart mon, and give no money to fully evolved 1v1s without exception.

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  7. #22
    The People's Champion Roulette's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Eh, imo 3k + the minimum 3.5k you get from evolving your basic is enough. In fact, its 6.5k which is the amount Smores proposed. So no, I wouldn't add anything to it.

  8. #23
    Sorm Sormeki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    I don't see why people buying TMs for their starters instead of buying a new mon is even an issue here. When I started I used $2,000 of my $3,000 to buy a Spirit Stone, which at the time evolved Eevee into Espeon or Umbreon. Then after my basics and I think an FFA or two, I had enough to not only purchase a Poochyena, but also Grass Knot for my Espeon. So really there is no reason why people can't stick with $3,000 as the starting cash. We all had it and have all turned out fine.

    If a new player gets into a situation where they evolved their first Pokemon and don't have enough for a second Pokemon then it is kinda the fault of that player, not a flaw in how the URPG is run. Besides, as mentioned, if you only have the one mon you still get paid for a 1v1 so you can still make enough to get whatever new mon you want. Abuse of that is pretty easy to monitor. If someone has one mon with all kinds of TMs/BMs/SMs and all sorts of items and cash, clearly they are abusing the system. In order to know if they should award money for a 1v1 that involves a fully evolved mon it is kinda the refs job to check the players stats to make sure that is their only mon. At which point it would be easy to see if they have been abusing the system.

    So issue solved in that clearly this issue was solved long ago by leaders of the past. It has worked this long so who are we to break it in the name of fixing it.

  9. #24
    Registered User Elamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    See no. I was suggesting 6.5k assuming that you would get the 3.5k from evolving your basics.

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  10. #25
    CAPS KidBeano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Krummhorn View Post
    Sorry I think maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that the fear isn't illogical, but I'm saying that it isn't that common of a problem. Also we currently have nothing to fix that problem in the first place. People right now could easily battle a kajillion battles to get infinite money. I don't see how giving them an extra 2000 or 3000 is going to contribute to that sum at all based on your logic.

    I'm not saying people shouldn't have to battle to get money. I'm saying people shouldn't have to do idiotic 1v1s with fully evolved mons to get money at the beginning because the URPG discourages those battles. Giving them an extra 2k or 3k will make those battles less of a necessity, since most people buy a second Pokemon as soon as possible.

    Honestly from what you're saying, it would make most sense to just give them no money, give them a coupon for a free Mart mon, and give no money to fully evolved 1v1s without exception.
    Double-edged sword. If people can easily battle a kajillion battles to get infinite money, what's the point of the extra 2000 or 3000? There's an argument to both sides with that.

    The URPG doesn't discourage those battles, it discourages ABUSE of those battles. Like with everything. If anything the URPG "discourages" anything below a 3v3 (since 2v2s aren't that much more strategy-filled than 1v1s), so should we give them enough money to buy 2 other mons?

    That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the money given out by 1v1 battles for people with one Pokemon is fine enough when coupled with the fact they get a reasonable $3000 to start them off. Trying to gain massive amounts of money through keeping only 1 Pokemon and battling with it is self-penalising, as you eventually just end up getting bored of the URPG, and end up having to buy new Pokemon anyway. The staff also aren't stupid - if someone's getting high amounts of money by not buying another mon, they're going to play the abuse card, because that's what it is.

    The URPG's attitude on loopholes is "use common sense". If it gives you an unfair advantage over others, then it's abuse. You'll be warned first (since, admittedly, abuse is subjective), then if you refuse to stop, you're punished accordingly.

    Anyway, like I said before, you're basically asking to start them off with a minimum of 10k (6.5k starting money, minimum of 3.5k from battling). In essence, you're guaranteeing them a psuedo for free.
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  11. #26
    URPG Moderator Monbrey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Sorry if I insulted you. I didn't mean to say your idea would always be pointless. My point was that basics have developed a bad reputation because of how people use them - to either quickly evolve a Pokemon, which is generally considered acceptable, or to make quick cash, which is considered abuse. All through your posts you've mentioned "$3.5k - $10k" for basics, and this is exactly my point. You've clearly expressed them as nothing more than revenue raising, and its this attitude towards basics that has caused them to become so closely scrutinized in the first place. If basics weren't only seen as cash raising, then I think giving a little bit extra at the start would be a more positive prospect.

    1v1's could be just as much fun as a 6v6. Personally, I prefer the smaller battles anyway. In a 6v6 when I have a counter for every type, and so does my opponent, its a boring switch/stat fest. In a 3v3 however, I have to make do with a limited type coverage and pull out some much more interesting strategies. For a newbie, if battling with their one and only Pokemon that they hand-selected, so we can assume its either their favourite or a strategically selected good Pokemon, I don't see how having to do a few extra battles with it is a chore. Like I mentioned before, I loved battling with my Charmander. It never occurred to me that I was only battling to buy something, the mentality was "Gotta win these battles so I have lots of money!". It was exciting, not tedious, because I was a player and not an economist. The deterring factor is how the rest of the community would respond to a player with only one fully evolved Pokemon, which is likely to be throw a battle so they get quick money, or completely counter it in the 1v1 and dominate the battle.

    tl;dr A new player should be enjoying their first battles, not just spamming through to get as much cash as possible. Honestly, I don't know if extra starting cash would make a difference to this or not.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Quote Originally Posted by Monbrey View Post
    Sorry if I insulted you. I didn't mean to say your idea would always be pointless. My point was that basics have developed a bad reputation because of how people use them - to either quickly evolve a Pokemon, which is generally considered acceptable, or to make quick cash, which is considered abuse. All through your posts you've mentioned "$3.5k - $10k" for basics, and this is exactly my point. You've clearly expressed them as nothing more than revenue raising, and its this attitude towards basics that has caused them to become so closely scrutinized in the first place. If basics weren't only seen as cash raising, then I think giving a little bit extra at the start would be a more positive prospect.

    1v1's could be just as much fun as a 6v6. Personally, I prefer the smaller battles anyway. In a 6v6 when I have a counter for every type, and so does my opponent, its a boring switch/stat fest. In a 3v3 however, I have to make do with a limited type coverage and pull out some much more interesting strategies. For a newbie, if battling with their one and only Pokemon that they hand-selected, so we can assume its either their favourite or a strategically selected good Pokemon, I don't see how having to do a few extra battles with it is a chore. Like I mentioned before, I loved battling with my Charmander. It never occurred to me that I was only battling to buy something, the mentality was "Gotta win these battles so I have lots of money!". It was exciting, not tedious, because I was a player and not an economist. The deterring factor is how the rest of the community would respond to a player with only one fully evolved Pokemon, which is likely to be throw a battle so they get quick money, or completely counter it in the 1v1 and dominate the battle.

    tl;dr A new player should be enjoying their first battles, not just spamming through to get as much cash as possible. Honestly, I don't know if extra starting cash would make a difference to this or not.
    I want more money for new people starting out but I think Monbrey is right it wont help do anything for them. If you want to do something to help them cut 50% off for there first Pokemon they buy, that would would help more then the money because now they don't have to use that much and they have some left over just saying.

  13. #28
    Head of the URPG HKim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    I approved adding the Contest starting credits to the thread awhile back. Someone was going to add them.


    In regards to money, I feel the need to provide the obligatory history lesson. Though I can't speak for what we did in the Yahoo days, when the URPG came to Pe2K in 2003, the activity was at an extremely low point (one battle a day total). As such, no one really abused Basic battles because, if you were lucky, that was your battle for the day! Trainers fought using whatever strategy they could, even when the odds weren't in your favor. That was part of the fun.

    As a result, your average winnings over five battles was not $2,500 but rather $3,750 (assuming you won 2 battles, lost 2 battles and tied once) or $5,250 with 7 battles. That resulted in a total account of $8,250 assuming one didn't spend it. Of course this varied, and no one really stopped at five/seven battles. That was the fun! So what if you pit your Larvitar against an Alakazam? Unbalanced, sure, but definitely thrilling beyond belief!

    I don't know when the game changed to the point where we raced to evolve our Pokemon. I don't know when we started spamming basics. It's tragic that this has become more commonplace.
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  14. #29
    Unregistered user Mubz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    I think the problem lies with Perma-basics. Im not saying that having a basic that you want as a pet is wrong, thats perfectly acceptable. But what happens when someone asks for basics, and that person continually is the one raising their hand for it, and then deliberately not trying? After all, they dont need to. They already have enough battles on that pokemon to evolve it, and any extra money they raise from basics is just a bonus. And thats if they try to lose. What if they have one of the many Eevees with TM Return, which pretty much allows a 2HKO on every basics that isnt either resistant or can 2HKO faster? Then thats double what they would have gained if they had tried to throw the battles.

    I remember someone once claiming in the URPG Chat that they had earned a total of 200K just out of basics with their Eevee. What effort went into earning that 200K, apart from simply saying 'OK Ill basics with you' then pasting Return into the chat after every turn? Furthermore, how is that any better than 1v1 Fully Evolved battles, which are banned because they were abused? Now if both of you had just bought your Pokemon, then you would definitely be trying to win, as you would want to earn back the money you had spent on it or to buy the evolution item you need for it.

    As for a way to stop this im not entirely sure. One way could be to ban unevolved 'mons that have the neccessary number of battles to evolve to do basics.

    TL;DR: We need a safeguard against Permabasics abusing the basics system.
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    Airik 7:42 pm
    i just hope that when puberty hits he grows out of pokemon

  15. #30
    Sorm Sormeki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Expanding the Starter Kit

    Personally I don't think the problem is with permabasics. Some Pokemon are better as basics with Eviolite and there is no real harm in keeping a basic around to help out a newbie by giving them a change to learn some more about battling by having a basics battle with someone that has been around longer. The issue is in letting the other person win that basic, or in not giving them a chance to win. The easiest way I can think of fixing that is, as I said earlier, don't pay someone that sits there and defense curls until they lose.

    A lot of refs do put something about what happens in a battle. So, if they were to decide that a battle doesn't pay because the battle was thrown, you would see that in the log. If they were to pay someone that threw a battle, you would see that in the log. At that point there is no excuse for it getting past someone. Not that there is in the first place. Forum battles are easy to watch and if someone throws the match and still gets paid, it is up for everyone to see not just in the logs but in the battle itself. AIM battles have a tendency to take place in the Battle chat, which has plenty of spectators as it is. Someone would catch it either in the chat or in the logs.

    A simple way to cut back on the spamming of 1v1s would be to not allow the same ref to ref two basics in a row for the same Pokemon. For example, if they ref a basics between a Growlithe and an Eevee, then the refs next reffed battle can't involve that Growlithe or that Eevee. This would require the battlers to find a new ref almost every battle as well as help spread out the battles so there is no hurry to get them done.

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