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  1. #16
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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    How does having a wider typing of moves help? Machamp can own everything with Dynamicpunch and Payback. Serperior can own everything with Leaf Storm. I only need 1-3 moves with most of my Pokemon. I think actually having more type of moves would be a disadvantage because what about things like Sleep Talk? Also you can get caught up and confused try to use some fancy move, when in fact all you needed to do was spam your STAB move.

    Also, there's no such thing as top-tier Pokemon. Drapion can beat Blaziken just by using Earthquake (again, you only need 1-2 moves). Klinklang can beat Starmie with Shift Gear and Wild Charge.

    If you wanted to explore, I think you should have been a Pokemon paleontologist, instead of a Pokemon forum poster.
    A wider typing of moves help because you have more different moves that may be the right thing to use in different situations, where spamming your STAB move isn't as helpful. Say someone switches in Skarm on your Dynamicpunch and Payback Machamp. Machamp is screwed and will have to switch out, unless it has the benefit of a wider typing of moves that at the least expands to Fire Punch. As for getting lost with fancy moves, that's on the battler not being good enough to recognize what the right thing to do was. A competent battler will know what they're doing, and if they have extra moves to pick from, then that can only make things easier.

    Also, top-tier Pokemon exist. You acknowledged that by listing Drapion in the context of a lower-tier Pokemon and Blaziken as a top-tier one. Obviously, those top-tier Pokemon have counters. But that doesn't mean that, in most other situations, Blaziken or Starmie won't be more helpful than Drapion and Klingklang. Compare a lineup with Blaziken, Starmie, Salamence, Gengar, Alakazam, and Jolteon to a lineup of Gengar, Venusaur, Drapion, Crobat, Tentacruel, and Nidoking. On base stats and variety of movepool alone, those top-tier Pokemon easily trump the Poison-types (which can be considered to be some of the better Pokemon, in general at least, of their type). That's an advantage Poison-types, or no single-type gym, can come close to, because they will always be limited to, at best, the "top" four/six Pokemon of their type in regards to base stats/movepool.

    Obviously, a good user with a bad team will beat a bad user with a good team, but between two equal users where one has a good team and a bad team, the better team usually wins. Multitype TED vs Flying-type Pidge is different from Ground-type TED and Flying-type Pidge.
    Last edited by AmericanTreeFrog; 27th January 2013 at 07:12 PM. Reason: Keep that out of here.

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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    How does having a wider typing of moves help? Machamp can own everything with Dynamicpunch and Payback. Serperior can own everything with Leaf Storm. I only need 1-3 moves with most of my Pokemon. I think actually having more type of moves would be a disadvantage because what about things like Sleep Talk? Also you can get caught up and confused try to use some fancy move, when in fact all you needed to do was spam your STAB move.

    Also, there's no such thing as top-tier Pokemon. Drapion can beat Blaziken just by using Earthquake (again, you only need 1-2 moves). Klinklang can beat Starmie with Shift Gear and Wild Charge.

    If you wanted to explore, I think you should have been a Pokemon paleontologist, instead of a Pokemon forum poster.
    A wider typing of moves help because you have more different moves that may be the right thing to use in different situations, where spamming your STAB move isn't as helpful. Say someone switches in Skarm on your Dynamicpunch and Payback Machamp. Machamp is screwed and will have to switch out, unless it has the benefit of a wider typing of moves that at the least expands to Fire Punch. As for getting lost with fancy moves, that's on the battler not being good enough to recognize what the right thing to do was. A competent battler will know what they're doing, and if they have extra moves to pick from, then that can only make things easier.

    Also, top-tier Pokemon exist. You acknowledged that by listing Drapion in the context of a lower-tier Pokemon and Blaziken as a top-tier one. Obviously, those top-tier Pokemon have counters. But that doesn't mean that, in most other situations, Blaziken or Starmie won't be more helpful than Drapion and Klingklang. Compare a lineup with Blaziken, Starmie, Salamence, Gengar, Alakazam, and Jolteon to a lineup of Gengar, Venusaur, Drapion, Crobat, Tentacruel, and Nidoking. On base stats and variety of movepool alone, those top-tier Pokemon easily trump the Poison-types (which can be considered to be some of the better Pokemon, in general at least, of their type). That's an advantage Poison-types, or no single-type gym, can come close to, because they will always be limited to, at best, the "top" four/six Pokemon of their type in regards to base stats/movepool.

    Obviously, a good user with a bad team will beat a bad user with a good team, but between two equal users where one has a good team and a bad team, the better team usually wins. Multitype TED vs Flying-type Pidge is different from Ground-type TED and Flying-type Pidge.
    Dynamicpunch and Fire Punch do the same amount of damage to Skarmory. Once again, showing you only need a few moves. If Skarmory hits itself once or more, it's done, since Roost won't help. Also from my experience, most players are not "competent".

    I acknowledged those Pokemon because I knew what you mean by top-tier Pokemon, even though I don't recognize them as such. For example, an atheist may understand what an ancient Greek means by Zeus and Apollo, even though he believes them to not be real. Also those two lineups seem pretty balanced. I would gladly take either side in a battle. You mention a variety in terms of movepool, but have yet to prove how that gives an advantage. The same goes for base stats. Also, I feel like all Pokemon have a pretty large movepool anyway.

    But where will we ever have a scenario where there is a good team against a bad team? What is a bad team? I really don't see how anyone can have a bad team in a tournament compared to someone else, unless it was Flying vs Grass maybe, but not in the case of one type versus many. You did your Poison versus multi example, and it was not very good. Nidoking for Jolteon and Blaziken. Drapion for Gengar and Alakazam. Venusaur for Jolteon and Starmie. Tentacruel for Blaziken and Salamence. Crobat for Blaziken, Starmie, Gengar, and Alakazam (Choice Band Brave Bat hurts!, although Crobat may have to sacrifice itself, rest of the team can finish off). Gengar (Choice Scarf is probably a good idea in this matchup) for Salamence, Gengar, and Starmie. Of course it won't be an easy game for team poison, but neither will it be for team multi. This implies balance.
    Last edited by Pidge; 28th January 2013 at 09:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    Dynamicpunch and Fire Punch do the same amount of damage to Skarmory. Once again, showing you only need a few moves. If Skarmory hits itself once or more, it's done, since Roost won't help. Also from my experience, most players are not "competent".

    I acknowledged those Pokemon because I knew what you mean by top-tier Pokemon, even though I don't recognize them as such. For example, an atheist may understand what an ancient Greek means by Zeus and Apollo, even though he believes them to not be real. Also those two lineups seem pretty balanced. I would gladly take either side in a battle. You mention a variety in terms of movepool, but have yet to prove how that gives an advantage. The same goes for base stats. Also, I feel like all Pokemon have a pretty large movepool anyway.

    But where will we ever have a scenario where there is a good team against a bad team? What is a bad team? I really don't see how anyone can have a bad team in a tournament compared to someone else, unless it was Flying vs Grass maybe, but not in the case of one type versus many. You did your Poison versus multi example, and it was not very good. Nidoking for Jolteon and Blaziken. Drapion for Gengar and Alakazam. Venusaur for Jolteon and Starmie. Tentacruel for Blaziken and Salamence. Crobat for Blaziken, Starmie, Gengar, and Alakazam (Choice Band Brave Bat hurts!, although Crobat may have to sacrifice itself, rest of the team can finish off). Gengar (Choice Scarf is probably a good idea in this matchup) for Salamence, Gengar, and Starmie. Of course it won't be an easy game for team poison, but neither will it be for team multi. This implies balance.

    And it's a good thing that never happened then.
    Okay, bad example, I didn't calc. But, I feel like the point I was trying to make can still be proven with a different example. Let's take Machamp versus Nidoking. DynamicPunch and Payback don't work, you need the extra coverage of either Earthquake or Ice Punch to get a move that deals close to/at least 50% damage to it. Against something like Slowbro or Slowking, you need ThunderPunch, since Payback doesn't do much either. And even then, their Psychic takes you out in two turns barring some luck with paralysis.

    My point is, a wider movepool gives you more options in different situations. Situations where those options are more helpful do exist, which is often the reason you bother buying EMs for Pokemon. Base stats, well I thought that would be self-explanatory, but stuff like having more bulk, more Speed, more attack power, that all comes in handy and can be the difference between 2HKOing and getting 2HKO'd in different situations. And yes, all Pokemon have a wide movepool, but I'm talking about wide movepools in the context of stuff that would be regularly useful and offer extra flexibility in battle. Dragonite has coverage over all sorts of things between Dragon Claw/Outrage, Hurricane, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, ThunderBolt, etc., then also gets the flexbility of Roost, Thunder Wave, Sub/Protect (which most everything gets, but is still a handy extra move to have), Heal Bell, and ExtremeSpeed.

    And yes, good team vs. bad team exists. Like the Machamp example, I didn't really think Poison through multi out. But, that's only an example. I don't want to do something too long-winded and break something specific - that's a lot of effort and more time than I have to spare, and even then, I'd only be putting that time and effort into something specific rather than an in general kind of thing. However, my point is that having more different types to choose from means when you're picking one of each type, you are available to pick one of the (in general) best Pokemon of that type. A multitype gym only needs, say, Blaziken, while a Fire-specific gym may have Blaziken, but also has to drag out some other Fire-types that aren't as good as Blaziken are. Not all Pokemon are created equal, and Blaziken is one of the better ones out there. A multitype gym that could have the Blaziken of each type will always be more readily equipped to handle a lineup limited to the a), b), c) and d) of just one type because when the multitype gym is picking his four/six mons to use, he is working with the momentum where he can pick different types to counter specific threats he expects his opponent to pick to use against his most prominent threat. (poor wording; think TED picking Weavile to counter the Gliscor Chris would use to counter TED's Blaziken in Kumquat v. Fuchsia)

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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    Dynamicpunch and Fire Punch do the same amount of damage to Skarmory. Once again, showing you only need a few moves. If Skarmory hits itself once or more, it's done, since Roost won't help. Also from my experience, most players are not "competent".

    I acknowledged those Pokemon because I knew what you mean by top-tier Pokemon, even though I don't recognize them as such. For example, an atheist may understand what an ancient Greek means by Zeus and Apollo, even though he believes them to not be real. Also those two lineups seem pretty balanced. I would gladly take either side in a battle. You mention a variety in terms of movepool, but have yet to prove how that gives an advantage. The same goes for base stats. Also, I feel like all Pokemon have a pretty large movepool anyway.

    But where will we ever have a scenario where there is a good team against a bad team? What is a bad team? I really don't see how anyone can have a bad team in a tournament compared to someone else, unless it was Flying vs Grass maybe, but not in the case of one type versus many. You did your Poison versus multi example, and it was not very good. Nidoking for Jolteon and Blaziken. Drapion for Gengar and Alakazam. Venusaur for Jolteon and Starmie. Tentacruel for Blaziken and Salamence. Crobat for Blaziken, Starmie, Gengar, and Alakazam (Choice Band Brave Bat hurts!, although Crobat may have to sacrifice itself, rest of the team can finish off). Gengar (Choice Scarf is probably a good idea in this matchup) for Salamence, Gengar, and Starmie. Of course it won't be an easy game for team poison, but neither will it be for team multi. This implies balance.

    And it's a good thing that never happened then.
    Okay, bad example, I didn't calc. But, I feel like the point I was trying to make can still be proven with a different example. Let's take Machamp versus Nidoking. DynamicPunch and Payback don't work, you need the extra coverage of either Earthquake or Ice Punch to get a move that deals close to/at least 50% damage to it. Against something like Slowbro or Slowking, you need ThunderPunch, since Payback doesn't do much either. And even then, their Psychic takes you out in two turns barring some luck with paralysis.

    My point is, a wider movepool gives you more options in different situations. Situations where those options are more helpful do exist, which is often the reason you bother buying EMs for Pokemon. Base stats, well I thought that would be self-explanatory, but stuff like having more bulk, more Speed, more attack power, that all comes in handy and can be the difference between 2HKOing and getting 2HKO'd in different situations. And yes, all Pokemon have a wide movepool, but I'm talking about wide movepools in the context of stuff that would be regularly useful and offer extra flexibility in battle. Dragonite has coverage over all sorts of things between Dragon Claw/Outrage, Hurricane, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, ThunderBolt, etc., then also gets the flexbility of Roost, Thunder Wave, Sub/Protect (which most everything gets, but is still a handy extra move to have), Heal Bell, and ExtremeSpeed.

    And yes, good team vs. bad team exists. Like the Machamp example, I didn't really think Poison through multi out. But, that's only an example. I don't want to do something too long-winded and break something specific - that's a lot of effort and more time than I have to spare, and even then, I'd only be putting that time and effort into something specific rather than an in general kind of thing. However, my point is that having more different types to choose from means when you're picking one of each type, you are available to pick one of the (in general) best Pokemon of that type. A multitype gym only needs, say, Blaziken, while a Fire-specific gym may have Blaziken, but also has to drag out some other Fire-types that aren't as good as Blaziken are. Not all Pokemon are created equal, and Blaziken is one of the better ones out there. A multitype gym that could have the Blaziken of each type will always be more readily equipped to handle a lineup limited to the a), b), c) and d) of just one type because when the multitype gym is picking his four/six mons to use, he is working with the momentum where he can pick different types to counter specific threats he expects his opponent to pick to use against his most prominent threat. (poor wording; think TED picking Weavile to counter the Gliscor Chris would use to counter TED's Blaziken in Kumquat v. Fuchsia)
    I guess this is what I meant when most players aren't competent. You don't need a calculator to see Dynamicpunch and Fire Punch would deal the same (100*1.5=75*2). But you only need those two moves for I'd say about 90% of situations. Maybe you need two or three more to cover 95%. Also Slowbro does not help your argument. You don't need any extra moves to handle a properly played Slowbro, because none will work, unless there's a series of unlikely dice rolls.

    Do you not want to present an example or are you not able to create one because such a case does not exist? What Pokemon does not have a wide movepool in the first place? What gym is full of these supposed Pokemon that don't have expansive movepools? Just stats don't tell you anything. Slaking, Hydreigon, and Magmortar have a high BST, yet they aren't used as much. Alakazam doesn't have a great total but it seems to be used a lot. There's no such thing as a Blaziken of each type; Blaziken is a category of its own. Also, Weavile does not counter Gliscor, because Weavile can't safely switch in without risking losing a considerable amount of health by Gliscor. It can however check Gliscor (meaning it can handle it almost for sure if it gets a free switch in after a KO). Similarly, Chris can check Weavile with Toxicroak.
    Last edited by Pidge; 31st January 2013 at 07:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    I guess this is what I meant when most players aren't competent. You don't need a calculator to see Dynamicpunch and Fire Punch would deal the same (100*1.5=75*2). But you only need those two moves for I'd say about 90% of situations. Maybe you need two or three more to cover 95%. Also Slowbro does not help your argument. You don't need any extra moves to handle a properly played Slowbro, because none will work, unless there's a series of unlikely dice rolls.

    Do you not want to present an example or are you not able to create one because such a case does not exist? What Pokemon does not have a wide movepool in the first place? What gym is full of these supposed Pokemon that don't have expansive movepools? Just stats don't tell you anything. Slaking, Hydreigon, and Magmortar have a high BST, yet they aren't used as much. Alakazam doesn't have a great total but it seems to be used a lot. There's no such thing as a Blaziken of each type; Blaziken is a category of its own. Also, Weavile does not counter Gliscor, because Weavile can't safely switch in without risking losing a considerable amount of health by Gliscor. It can however check Gliscor (meaning it can handle it almost for sure if it gets a free switch in after a KO). Similarly, Chris can check Weavile with Toxicroak.
    Did you bother to read what I said, or are you just here to fuck around? I didn't think we were here to talk about whether or not I'm a competent battler, really.

    "What Pokemon does not have a wide movepool in the first place?"

    And yes, all Pokemon have a wide movepool, but I'm talking about wide movepools in the context of stuff that would be regularly useful and offer extra flexibility in battle.
    Let's compare Dragonite and Pidgeot. Pidgeot's movepool is, to sum it up quickly, is primarily limited to mainly Flying-type attacks, some utility TMs (a lot of which many other Pokemon have access to, like Sub/Toxic/Rain Dance, with the notable addition of U-Turn for scouting), and some BM/MTs that offer minimal coverage with Dark/Ghost/Fire-type moves with BP generally in the 40s-60s, with the main exception of Brave Bird and Heat Wave. It also has Roost and Refresh for healing and curing its own status, and Agility for boosting its Speed.

    Dragonite, meanwhile, has a much wider movepool (also in # of moves, but here I'm just talking about in offered flexibility in battle, which may be a function of # of moves, but maybe not - not relevant atm). DNite gets Roost, same as Pidgeot, but also gets access to much more in terms of attacks through Dragon Claw/Outrage, Ice Beam, Flamer, ThunderBolt, Superpower/Brick Break, Surf, and ExtremeSpeed for priority. Other highlights include Heal Bell (superior to Refresh, definitely), both Dragon Dance and Agility, and Thunder Wave for status.

    Basically, Dragonite's movepool is noticeably stronger than Pidgeot's through its expanded coverage + stronger moves, Dragon Dance, Heal Bell compared to Refresh, and Thunder Wave for the benefit of being able to paralyze opponents. Compared to Dragonite, Pidgeot's movepool is more suited for a niche role if anything at all.

    As for stats, I never said anything about BST. BST is a made-up stat to track totals, but I'm sure you know that totals isn't ever the only way to look at things. What's important is how those are spread out to each stat where it's important for that Pokemon to have good stats (otherwise they wouldn't be good stats because high stats doesn't necessarily = good stats), and that in conjunction with other factors (movepool, typing, ability) creates good, great, and greatest among Pokemon. Not saying that we can ever rank Pokemon from 1-100 or whatever fairly because different mons have different purposes, but some Pokemon simply have an easier time carrying a team to a win than others, and some are simply meant to take a role on the side.

    There not being a Blaziken of each type is a technicality. What I meant was the most elite Pokemon of each type (and obviously, some of those are debatable and I honestly hate the idea of there being a concrete #1, but I'm sure you get the idea). TED is free to take a Pokemon of each type, and he is free to take a Pokemon that can, at the least, be within the top 3/5/etc by a theoretical consensus vote. Meanwhile, a single-type leader can, at best, have a team that is top 12 within the consensus, and they would probably sacrifice a redundant Pokemon for a niche mon that serves a better purpose but has, say, even more counters/checks or some other downside. TED's team of top 3 mons of each type versus somebody else's team of top 12/15 mons. I'm sure you can see the disparity there. (I probably hate the idea of talking in top 10/12/15/etc somewhere close to as much as I think you do, but I'm just trying to get the point across)
    Last edited by Nitro; 31st January 2013 at 08:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    Did you bother to read what I said, or are you just here to fuck around? I didn't think we were here to talk about whether or not I'm a competent battler, really.
    Earlier you mentioned that competent battlers would be able to make the correct moves. However, I suggest there are very few of these people. I would not even consider myself one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    Let's compare Dragonite and Pidgeot. Pidgeot's movepool is, to sum it up quickly, is primarily limited to mainly Flying-type attacks, some utility TMs (a lot of which many other Pokemon have access to, like Sub/Toxic/Rain Dance, with the notable addition of U-Turn for scouting), and some BM/MTs that offer minimal coverage with Dark/Ghost/Fire-type moves with BP generally in the 40s-60s, with the main exception of Brave Bird and Heat Wave. It also has Roost and Refresh for healing and curing its own status, and Agility for boosting its Speed.

    Dragonite, meanwhile, has a much wider movepool (also in # of moves, but here I'm just talking about in offered flexibility in battle, which may be a function of # of moves, but maybe not - not relevant atm). DNite gets Roost, same as Pidgeot, but also gets access to much more in terms of attacks through Dragon Claw/Outrage, Ice Beam, Flamer, ThunderBolt, Superpower/Brick Break, Surf, and ExtremeSpeed for priority. Other highlights include Heal Bell (superior to Refresh, definitely), both Dragon Dance and Agility, and Thunder Wave for status.

    Basically, Dragonite's movepool is noticeably stronger than Pidgeot's through its expanded coverage + stronger moves, Dragon Dance, Heal Bell compared to Refresh, and Thunder Wave for the benefit of being able to paralyze opponents. Compared to Dragonite, Pidgeot's movepool is more suited for a niche role if anything at all.

    As for stats, I never said anything about BST. BST is a made-up stat to track totals, but I'm sure you know that totals isn't ever the only way to look at things. What's important is how those are spread out to each stat where it's important for that Pokemon to have good stats (otherwise they wouldn't be good stats because high stats doesn't necessarily = good stats), and that in conjunction with other factors (movepool, typing, ability) creates good, great, and greatest among Pokemon. Not saying that we can ever rank Pokemon from 1-100 or whatever fairly because different mons have different purposes, but some Pokemon simply have an easier time carrying a team to a win than others, and some are simply meant to take a role on the side.
    Obviously Pidgeot isn't as useful as Dragonite in most situations. However, I don't think any gym leader uses Pidgeot. But I think I see what you mean about some Pokemon being inherently stronger than others. Also I don't think gyms have lineups full of Pidgeot-like Pokemon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
    There not being a Blaziken of each type is a technicality. What I meant was the most elite Pokemon of each type (and obviously, some of those are debatable and I honestly hate the idea of there being a concrete #1, but I'm sure you get the idea). TED is free to take a Pokemon of each type, and he is free to take a Pokemon that can, at the least, be within the top 3/5/etc by a theoretical consensus vote. Meanwhile, a single-type leader can, at best, have a team that is top 12 within the consensus, and they would probably sacrifice a redundant Pokemon for a niche mon that serves a better purpose but has, say, even more counters/checks or some other downside. TED's team of top 3 mons of each type versus somebody else's team of top 12/15 mons. I'm sure you can see the disparity there. (I probably hate the idea of talking in top 10/12/15/etc somewhere close to as much as I think you do, but I'm just trying to get the point across)
    I think you're making the top choices of a single type seem weaker than they are. Pokemon like Drapion and Toxicroak have their uses against multitype teams, as expressed in previous examples. Just because they aren't the strongest overall does not mean they are really bad and useless. And just because some Pokemon are strong in a metagame where they face all Pokemon of varying types does not necessarily mean they are strong against teams that use one type. I think I can come up with an analogy. Let's say John is the world champion of a 500 M swimming race where in the first 100 M you must swim with stroke A, then then the next 100 M you must swim with stroke B, etc. You could say he's the best overall swimmer in that regard. However that does not necessarily mean he would win a competition involving swimming 500 M using only stroke B the whole way. There could be other swimmers that are specialized in that one stroke type of event, instead of an event where you only focus on all strokes. Or maybe consider real Pokemon battling and their tiers as an example. Shedinja and Beartic could be considered useless in OU and even UU. However, they actually have special functions in the Ubers environment that make them a threat. Here is a successful Ubers team that uses 3 Uber Pokemon and 3 OU Pokemon. By your reasoning, only teams that consist of 6 Ubers could be viable, when that is not the case. I loosely showed that your 6 'top URPG' Pokemon team against the mono Poison team, which consists of 1-2 'top URPG Pokemon' and 4-5 other Pokemon, can have an even fight.

    Also, another thing I just thought of. There exist advantages in matchups such as Fire against Grass and Water against Fire. Even if multitype gyms had advantages against a monoteam, why should they be changed in the tournament if other unbalanced matchups can still occur (in round 2 and onwards). The premise of a tournament where people represent types that they can't choose can't be made wholly fair. I feel like the tournament should be treated as some casual tournament instead of a more serious one where everyone can be on more even ground.
    Last edited by Pidge; 31st January 2013 at 10:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    I feel like the tournament should be treated as some casual tournament instead of a more serious one where everyone can be on more even ground.
    I don't care for this whole argument at all. But I will always ALWAYS agree with a statement like this. Playing casually makes everything so much more enjoyable.

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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    Earlier you mentioned that competent battlers would be able to make the correct moves. However, I suggest there are very few of these people. I would not even consider myself one.

    In that light, I'll uh, take back what I said, lol. But, by competent, I meant in the context of URPG, which is probably a lower standard than the official competitive battling scene. You're the Champion here, so you're really about as competent as it gets.

    Obviously Pidgeot isn't as useful as Dragonite in most situations. However, I don't think any gym leader uses Pidgeot. But I think I see what you mean about some Pokemon being inherently stronger than others. Also I don't think gyms have lineups full of Pidgeot-like Pokemon.

    Yeah, Dragonite-Pidgeot obviously is an exaggeration. But, it exists to a lesser degree in most, possibly all, gyms, particularly in those that reach to fill a lineup of 12 or 10. After a gym gets their "core" Pokemon in the lineup, the remainder is often just those niche mons I was talking about - a situation that doesn't always apply or apply in such a limiting way to OI gyms (bar Mikan) which can fill the majority of their team with Pokemon that can carry a team.

    I think you're making the top choices of a single type seem weaker than they are. Pokemon like Drapion and Toxicroak have their uses against multitype teams, as expressed in previous examples. Just because they aren't the strongest overall does not mean they are really bad and useless. And just because some Pokemon are strong in a metagame where they face all Pokemon of varying types does not necessarily mean they are strong against teams that use one type. I think I can come up with an analogy. Let's say John is the world champion of a 500 M swimming race where in the first 100 M you must swim with stroke A, then then the next 100 M you must swim with stroke B, etc. You could say he's the best overall swimmer in that regard. However that does not necessarily mean he would win a competition involving swimming 500 M using only stroke B the whole way. There could be other swimmers that are specialized in that one stroke type of event, instead of an event where you only focus on all strokes. Or maybe consider real Pokemon battling and their tiers as an example. Shedinja and Beartic could be considered useless in OU and even UU. However, they actually have special functions in the Ubers environment that make them a threat. Here is a successful Ubers team that uses 3 Uber Pokemon and 3 OU Pokemon. By your reasoning, only teams that consist of 6 Ubers could be viable, when that is not the case. I loosely showed that your 6 'top URPG' Pokemon team against the mono Poison team, which consists of 1-2 'top URPG Pokemon' and 4-5 other Pokemon, can have an even fight.

    Yeah, you definitely have a point. But at the same time, compare those Pokemon that are normally in Ubers compared to those that normally aren't - there's a reason for that. Those Pokemon in Ubers have a much more adaptable use, and they can find more situations to succeed in, because they simply are better. The Pokemon not in Ubers can still find a way to succeed, but they (probably) aren't as easy to handle as those that are normally in Ubers. Thus, it's an uphill battle, in terms of momentum if nothing else, for those Pokemon. Planning against Shedinja and Beartic is definitely easier than Zekrom and Kyogre. Without knowing the rest of their teams, Shedinja and Beartic could win, but certainly Zekrom and Kyogre are working from higher ground.

    Also, another thing I just thought of. There exist advantages in matchups such as Fire against Grass and Water against Fire. Even if multitype gyms had advantages against a monoteam, why should they be changed in the tournament if other unbalanced matchups can still occur (in round 2 and onwards). The premise of a tournament where people represent types that they can't choose can't be made wholly fair. I feel like the tournament should be treated as some casual tournament instead of a more serious one where everyone can be on more even ground.

    No, it can't be made wholly fair. Type advantage matchups will always exist, and there just isn't anything to do about it beyond hoping the dice don't shake out that way. But multitype gyms stand out as an unreasonable advantage to me. Casual, serious, either way it's true from my perspective. I personally think that removing multitype gyms from the tournament (and unrelated I guess but from URPG in general) can be a good thing.
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  9. #24
    URPG! GliscorMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Monbrey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    I feel like the tournament should be treated as some casual tournament instead of a more serious one where everyone can be on more even ground.
    I don't care for this whole argument at all. But I will always ALWAYS agree with a statement like this. Playing casually makes everything so much more enjoyable.
    >read as "Chill out guys, I'm just better than you."

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  10. #25
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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by GliscorMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Monbrey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
    I feel like the tournament should be treated as some casual tournament instead of a more serious one where everyone can be on more even ground.
    I don't care for this whole argument at all. But I will always ALWAYS agree with a statement like this. Playing casually makes everything so much more enjoyable.
    >read as "Chill out guys, I'm just better than you."
    More like

    > "tl;dr but found a mildly agreeable sentence whilst skimming."



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  11. #26
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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    Guys what happened to "the best trainers win with their favourites"? ):
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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    btw I don't even believe in what I posted. Just felt like playing devil's advocate.
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  13. #28
    Du Edoc'sil Ash K.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Eighth Gym Tourney Discussion

    One thing I've noticed a lot of people say is that OI vs regular gym is just like a non-tournament gym battle for that leader. However, being able to pick rules and have your opponent send first (if DPPt or similar) is a really big advantage and can massively help overcome your opponents much larger pool of Pokémon.

    I disagree with Nitro's idea to disband OI entirely, because I do like their special rules (even if none of them let me challenge anymore). However, I do think they should be forced to enter this tournament with their other gym if they have one, or if next year one of them doesn't have one maybe let them use a monotype team (possibly with WC) instead of their OI lineup (Mikan excluded, it's already monotype). I don't have a problem with Striaton, since they are still vastly limited I don't really feel they have much of an advantage. Like several other people have said, OI have the best of few of each type instead of the best 12 of each type. They also may get to use combinations of Pokémon that work really well but don't share a type. There are also certain utility moves some types either don't get or one get on one or two Pokémon that are otherwise terrible. For instance, Flying's only Rapid Spinner is Delibird, which takes 50% from Stealth Rock and is slow enough that it'll probably die before it can use it. If you Scarf it into Rapid Spin and it lives then they get a free set up turn while you have to switch out or stay in doing minimal damage. Considering that the only Flying types that take less than 25% from Stealth Rock are Gligar, Gliscor, and Skarmory, being able to clear them would be really nice. While I would have to use Delibird, OI could use Starmie which is amazing for many other things too and still have great other Pokémon. Another MAJOR advantage to multitype teams is the lack of a common weakness between most of their Pokémon. Even though Flying is an amazing type, I still have 11 weak to Ice and 11 weak to Rock, with several double weak to each.
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