The URPG Art Forum

[Synthesis]

Just one thing I have to say. I'm sure people who might not be the best of artist would get pretty discouraged over time as they constantly get very little for their art. I realise an Effort section probably would not work, but what about a Progress one. This would allow them to maybe get a little more points and boost their self-esteem if they knew people acknowledged they were improving, and obviously they'd want to come back more often and submit more art.

[Lurking]

Just one thing I have to say. I'm sure people who might not be the best of artist would get pretty discouraged over time as they constantly get very little for their art. I realise an Effort section probably would not work, but what about a Progress one. This would allow them to maybe get a little more points and boost their self-esteem if they knew people acknowledged they were improving, and obviously they'd want to come back more often and submit more art.

The problem with a progress bar, however, is that it wouldn't do squat for more experienced artists. In fact, it would likely hinder them, 'cause they would never really get those points/would get much fewer points than a less skilled artist might, simply because their last piece happened to be glorious.

However, on further consideration, it's prolly a good idea. Perhaps we could use it as one of those selectable options, and it would only be available of you 1) selected to have yourself graded on your "progress" (which almost everyone would, really... It's practically free points) and 2) it's your nth capture. Like, second. And we should have either an honor-based-unspoken/written law that prevents people from abusing this on purpose to get more points. If I wanted a Gastly and everyone knew I was a phenomenal artist (lolwut), but then I posted my first image for a Gastly and it was pure and utter crap that only got a 20, and then my next two pictures were phenomenal and both got 90's, allowing me to get a ton of extra TM's that I wouldn't have before... that's abuse, and it undermines the whole point. XD

I could see the above getting abused quickly though, so we'd need a ton of restrictions on who could get graded on progress and get points for it (and perhaps a max level difficulty one can use it on)... And how does one even grade progress in a quantitative fashion?

On an unrelated note, what does everyone think that the average art piece should get? Like, how harsh should our curators be to make it still challenging but not impossible? I was thinking 75 for the average piece, low 90's for the really good things (THERE IS NO PERFECT ART), and 10/15 for the trolls?

[Monbrey]

The "progress" marking criteria would probably have to be something unofficial too, otherwise it would suffer the abuse Kai mentioned. However I can't help but stand by the "If you're no good at art don't make art" thing I said before. I know it might seem harsh, but I don't think anyone would grant me a capture for a story that was terribly written and had no plot just because I tried really hard to write it, and it was marginally less shit than my last story.

I guess the grader would need to see some form of uhh... honesty in their efforts. If your first piece is a stick figure holding a Pokeball, you'll probably get a low mark. As a grader, I might mention adding a background and giving the stick figure a proper body. The next mark would probably depend on how well they followed the advice. If picture #2 hasn't really changed at all, except there's a poorly drawn Pokemon somehwere, then they aren't trying to improve. If picture #2 has a background of an plain orange sky/sunset over a plain green mountain in the distance and there's been an attempt at drawing a real person (distinct shirt, pants, legs etc), even a poorly drawn one, then I'd award some (maybe 5, 10) extra points for an honest attempt to follow the helpful advice I had given and improve themselves.

[FrozenChaos]

I think the whole points thing would make everything more complicated. The story section doesn't necessarily have that. They just have distinct categories. I think if we can make the grading system here kind of mirror the story section that it could work. Is there anyway we could incorporate this without a point system?

I also think, if we're using points, that extra points shouldn't go to anything. I foresee that getting really complicated as well. @_@

[Alaskapigeon]

Well the reason for having the points system is to make it so they add up to be for one Pokemon. Because even drawing one really really good thing for like, a Stupefying Pokemon, still seems like it'd be kind of hard to give away. Unless you can paint me the Sistine Chapel or something. Stories are different because stories can be not only of varying quality but of varying length. Even if you're an amazing artist, there's only so much you can draw or paint in one drawing/painting/whatever. If that makes any sense at all.

[Monbrey]

If there is no points system, we would need to grade like a story, which we simply cant. If I was an amazing artist, this would become the easiest way to get Pokemon. Draw a Porygon, Larvesta, and Scyther in one piece, and because its good they get all 3?
Character counts are clearly defined lines you have to cross for your story to be good enough to even be considered for certain Pokemon. The points act in the same way, otherwise it's impossible to declare with pieces are eligible for Porygons and Larvestas and which are the Magikarps.

[Monbrey]

Well, I guess the largely quiet response to my "Should we change our final decisions" post is a pretty positive thing. If anyone can propose a full system that doesn't use points I'm happy to hear it, but I don't see any solid way of ranking a piece of art in the same way we can rank a story based on its character count. Number of colours or size of the piece? I'll spam every possible RGB combination and have a Porygon riding a rainbow of 16,581,375 colours on a 10,000 x 10,000 pixel banner.

That's kinda why we added the extra criteria. It's not just the points, you also need to have demonstrated some minimum level of artistic talent to get different Pokemon ranks. X pieces featuring Pokemon that scored at least Y.

[FrozenChaos]

Well, we could always require more than one piece of a certain quality for the harder ranked mon. I just think with the points system, anyone could get any mon. Eventually, they will get enough points for a larvesta or a porygon even if their art skills hasn't improved. And there's the thing about tracking points and then lying about them. No, I personally can't think of any better system, but I just think a points system would be REALLY complicated. @___@

Does anyone else see this being really complicated? D; Cause if it's just me, I could be over thinking it. I do that sometimes.

[Monbrey]

We do require pieces of a certain quality for higher ranked mons...

• Easiest > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured.
• Simple > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured.
• Medium > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 30.
• Hard > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 40.
• Complex > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 40.
• Demanding > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.
• Merciless > Minimum 3 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.
• Stupefying > Minimum 3 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 60.

[Alaskapigeon]

Personally, I don't think the point system is that bad. It reminds me of the Library... except that no one used the Library... BUT IT WOULD'VE WORKED. HAD WE USED IT.

[Lurking]

Hey, guys, back from vacation. Moo.

The main reason we implemented the point system was because we needed some sort of system to rank art in a thoughtful manner. Honestly, even the story section sort of has a point system (although it's hiiiiighly susceptible to tweaking and it's mostly subconscious; I don't think it's ever written down and it's kinda optional... I'mma stop shooting myself in the foot now), and the park has one. However, art just seems more subjective than writing is, biased as I am, and I'm fairly certain that people are going to want to see why their art is "good" or "bad". We have to have some sort of quantitative approach to this, since art is so difficult to properly critique, and the point system seems like the best way to approach it. Literally. All of our approaches thus far have been based slightly around the point system (ALL TWO OF THEM), and frankly, it's the best idea that we've got. We have failsafes in place, as Monbrey mentioned, to prevent people from spam spam spamming, but hopefully people won't try to abuse it. Then I shall be upset. :>

If anyone else has any other suggestions, however, I'm totally open to hearing them. I might not necessarily implement them, though, but... XD

[Monbrey]

Also to add: I wouldn't mind raising those minimum scores by 10 each... Stupefying for 60 seems like "Just over half good". 70 just feels better...

[FrozenChaos]

Alright, I suppose I can wrap my mind around it now. Though I agree with Monbrey about the stupefying level. And why don't easiest and simple have a point level?

[Monbrey]

They do, but its 25 points and 50 points. Theres multiple criteria, perhaps I should explain in full.

Points/Capturing:
Everyone seems pretty happy with the system Kai and Harry figured out.

• Easiest > 25 points
• Simple > 50 points
• Medium > 75 points
• Hard > 100 points
• Complex > 150 points
• Demanding > 200 points
• Merciless > 300 points
• Stupefying > 500 points

However we've decided that each level will have additional criteria though, such as the minimum point-per-picture requirements Emma and I discussed. Currently we're looking at the following:

• Easiest > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured.
• Simple > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured.
• Medium > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 30.
• Hard > Minimum 1 piece that features the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 40.
• Complex > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 40.
• Demanding > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.
• Merciless > Minimum 3 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.
• Stupefying > Minimum 3 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 60.

This means that for each level, a minimum score must be reached to claim the Pokemon. Of that score, a certain part must meet the second additional criteria. So for Charizard, a Demanding Pokemon.

• Demanding > 200 points
• Demanding > Minimum 2 pieces that feature the Pokemon being captured with a score higher than 50.

I need to reach a total of 200 points. While doing this, at least two pieces of my art MUST feature Charizard, and these pieces MUST be scored at 50 or higher. This means that at least half the points going towards the Pokemon I am attempting to capture was at least mid-quality art that directly featured the attempted Pokemon. However I'm thinking of raising these slightly.

The reason the pieces for Easiest and Simple don't have a minimum quality is that the total points required is only 25 and 50 respectively, and I didn't feel a 'minimum quality' was required, only the featuring of the Pokemon. Personally, if someone struggles to draw 5 terrible Magikarps that only get 5 points each, I don't mind. They got a Magikarp. 100 5-point Porygon-Z's is a big deal though.

So, new proposal for capture requirements:

• Easiest > Total of 25 points, minumum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon.
• Simple > Total of 50 points, minumum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon.
• Medium > Total of 75 points, minimum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 40 or higher.
• Hard > Total of 100 points, minimum one piece of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 50 or higher.
• Complex > Total of 150 points, minimum two pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 50 or higher.
• Demanding > Total of 200 points, minimum two pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 60 or higher.
• Merciless > Total of 300 points, minimum three pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 60 or higher.
• Stupefying > Total of 500 points, minimum three pieces of art featuring the attempted Pokemon that scored 75 or higher.

[Lurking]

Hey, guys... this is important. Hurray.

In light of future events (I LOVE THAT TERM, DAMMIT), Monbrey will be in charge of the fledging Art Forums. Like, the head art judge-man or something, seeing as all of the other people have gone inactive. Good luck, everyone, and do... arty stuff. Yeah. Thanks. ^.^