Thread: Mafia Philosophy

This might just be me, but when I say 'outnumber the town' in a mafia's win condition, I actually mean outnumber the non-mafia side. Most role PMs I've seen here say something along the lines of "create conditions wherein you cannot lose", which implies keeping independents alive keeps the count against you.

In Havendale 2, my condition was to kill everyone. I managed to survive right until the end by claiming Survivor-with-a-kill-ability to the town (but then they lynched me ;_;). The thing I like about Survivor roles is that it encourages a lot more prediction and logic - you have to try and guess which side would be the best to side with.

I almost always use survival roles. I've yet to see a game where the indeps sided with the mafia.

And yeah, I've always counted indeps into the mafia win condition. Because if the indep sides with the town, the mafia can still lose.

Kirby Mafia. Two of them sided with us.

Hetalia Mafia. What helped the mafia get the win quicker.

Some others, I'm sure, but those are two I know right off the top of my head.

I've never counted independents in a win condition since, well... if they're a survivor, it really shouldn't matter, should it? They'll win if they vote with the mafia, so why wouldn't they? :/ Eh. Probably being stupid.

Players should always vote. Even if the vote is following a bandwagon, on a target no one else is on, or a joke vote, your vote matters. YOUR VOTE MATTERS. Public discussion is the greatest threat town have -- and the easiest way to have a fun, engaging game. You should post reactions to something that jumps out at you, even if you might be wrong. You should post reactions even if nothing jumps out at you. YOU SHOULD POST.

Every single one of you can change a game if you play with meaning. It doesn't take much -- one well-worded case, one vote in the right place -- to change the game. Things are more fun for everyone when everyone participates to some extent. You'll have fun if you make a commitment to post at least once every voting phase.

If you can't make that commitment, that's okay. It's okay to substitute out of a game. Nobody likes trying to play with you and finding you to be too busy. Sometimes it's even unfair to people who want to be in the game but can't because of you occupying the slot. I personally respect someone more for recognizing their limits than for trying to play when they can't. If you can't play for a while, that's okay. You don't need to feel as though you owe it to us to play every game. Joining games you can't play in is actually more harmful.

My mafia philosophy: Activity is fun.

In a couple of recent games there has been debate about the correlation between inactivity and one's alignment and about what we should base our suspicions on. I will share a couple of my thoughts on the issue.

I do agree that signing up and doing nothing (that is not even using the ability or contacting players privately) is disrespectful towards the host and your co-players. However, being silent in the game thread is not the ultimate scumtell, nor does being the most active player in the thread equal with being a townie. I prefer the quality of the posts over the quantity of them. In fact I consider a player whose posts consist merely of "No, not the cop", "why doesn't anybody do anything", "Let's see... well I got nothing" to be more suspicious than a player that is a little quieter. The feeling I get is that the said player is just trying to create an illusion of participating in the thread.

Is there reasons for a townie to be a little inactive in the thread. Yes, there is. For example I prefer lurking when I am the cop and try to find a plyer who I can trust and possibly use as my mouthpiece. Yes, I know that this way I might be making another player a likely target for a night kill but I think I might be helping the town more when I am alive than when I'm dead. Another case is masons. Third case is that you might legitimately out of ideas who to suspect. Posting comments like "Guys, I am confused" will not help the game further anymore than not posting that comment.

I have noticed that "lynch all the inactives" has became a policy especially when the cop is dead. Once the cop is dead town still has several alternatives. It can take the easy way out and start to lynch an inactive player after another. Sometimes it provides the hoped result, but more often than not it will lead to a mislynch. Another way is actually read the posts, look at the content and analyze the style, make conclusions based on that. Is there a posts that rubs in the wrong way? Is there sudden changes in the ways someone is acting? A player that seems to be posting for just postings sake? These can be even better signs of being a mafia than just inactivity.

Thanks to @Paperhorse; , we have this interesting article about lurking as a mafia player.

So you've started a game. You say your role is mafia? Well congratulations, you probably just won. But here's a guide to help you win more easily. Always keep in mind, that playing as mafia is a game of waiting. Wait long enough, and the town will kill itself.

1. You don't want to lynch the people you call scum. You want the town to lynch the people you call town. Towns tend to look at successful wagons for scum. If you're not on them, you'll do better.
2. Do not call the strongest members of the town scum, rather pick on weaker but more neutral figures. If you pick on people that are too easy, you will eventually run out of valid scumreads, and if you only pick on the strongest members of the town, it will likely turn on you. Attack the people that can't defend themselves. Newbies are a good choice.
3. Early on, post a lot, and frequently. Most people will subconsciously treat active players as town. Almost nobody will suspect you for this on its own.
4. Call out lurkers. They are easy to lynch, but don't try to lynch them until later in the game. Their wagon will provide good escape later if you need it. Be sure to make this a long-term campaign. If you notice the flow go against your allies or your scum-calls begin to push the lurkers.
5. Outline rough suspicion of your dumbest partner. Do not push their wagon, just list them as neutral-leaning-scum or something to that effect. Meanwhile, defend your other partner from significant attacks. This will separate your team in the minds of the town.
6. Defend the strongest players of the town. Pick one in particular to defend excessively. If you die, this will tie you to them and allow your team to lynch them quickly. As a note, generally, if you build a meta for defending people you will do well in all your games.
7. For lynch on the first day, push the second or third most popular lynch. Do not try to make your wagon fail, but hope that it does. After that, continue to push reads that are less likely to be lynched. If one of your reads becomes a major lynch though, lynch them. Do not back down.
8. If you notice someone acting scummy, and no one else has yet picked up on it, take the opportunity. If you lynch an unexpected person the next day reverts to earlier lynch prospects much of the time. Essentially the town loses a day.
9. Kill the stronger members of the town at night. Nobody analyses night kills anymore, and if they do just bury them under a mountain of WIFOM logic. It actually works.
10. Taper off your posting as you go. Do not suddenly disappear, just gradually reduce your rate of posting. Try to keep large but infrequent posts at first, but later shorter posts will do. You want to appear like you are losing interest in the game. You also want to have an excuse for dodging the nightkills. Living too long being too town will be problematic.
11. Do not fear people who are getting things right. Even if they are right about everything, there will be idiots that refuse to believe well reasoned and logical cases. Don't mistake being caught for being lynched. Stay calm, and it is critical that you do not suddenly change your reads. Don't underestimate the ability of a town to eat itself, or to change off of a correct wagon at the last second. Often you can survive a day or two after you should if you play calmly.
12. Claim vanilla. Do not try to gambit. Conservative is the best way to play scum. If you claim earlier than you need to, you will likely be believed in today's meta. Of course, extreme circumstances call for extreme measures, and in some cases claiming a power role may allow you to live longer than you deserve. But keep in mind 11) you are not always in as bad a position as you think.
13. Attack players that do not know how to defend themselves properly. Start with a case that is factual, but weak. When the player overreacts and digs themselves deeper and deeper, you will have a good wagon to sit on. If it sees lynch, you have lynched someone that everyone agrees deserved it, and if it doesn't you have a plausible distraction from the main lynches.
14. Don't underestimate the power of subtle praise. "That's a great point" and "I didn't notice that" or even "I'm sheeping X, who is obv-town" helps building false confidence in townies. This will make the townie think you are town, and if they turn out to be wrong they get the blame and their confidence is shaken. It is generally good to leave the responsibility for the town's lynches on the town.
15. The town tends to believe that it ought to win. They are wrong, but you can take advantage of this. If someone has been on many of the major wagons, you have just found a free lynch target. Similarly, if there is someone that seems to be causing the town not to succeed, they are a good target. Generally, the mafia should be encouraging the idea that the town is being conned by their leaders.

source

Regardless of wrong/right issue, this was an interesting read. :P

I'm on the fence about 'killing the strongest figures among town' part. If they are beyond control, it'd be worth killing them before they earn too much trust (getting rid of confirmed townies can be important). But on the other hand, there might be a townie who is actually the core of the problem. After all, one of the strategies for the informational roles (like cop) is to avoid being too trusted - that can lead to them being killed.

Regarding inactivity as a scumtell...I personally think it's more often a towntell. Being in the mafia, you are a part of a small group of people who are making major decisions and strategizing every night phase, and since there aren't as many roles in the mafia to go around, most mafia roles will have some sort of significant impact. This, from what I see, leads people to think that they are more obligated to be active in the game, especially in PMs, QTs, or Skype chats. And to keep up their illusion of innocence, they post in the thread - after all, it's an effective method of getting someone to dig their own grave, or finding out choice bits of information that could decide who needs to get killed and who can safely live to see another day phase. Mafiosi essentially feel like they have to be active because if they aren't, then the game truly doesn't get anywhere. Even the most inactive game will still have a kill attempt every night.

Townies, on the other hand...well, it's real easy sometimes to feel like you got stuck with a shitty role, or that you just can't seem to find anyone trustworthy enough to form an alliance with. Add on school and work and a whole host of other distractions and even players with very useful roles will essentially feel like the game is not worth their time, or that they won't be missing anything if they don't post or skip using their ability just this once. Life happens, and real life always trumps the forums, but at least remember that you are participating in something and do the polite thing and sub out. There's no brand of shame for asking to leave a game for any reason, even if that reason is that you just got bored. Hell, that's why I eventually subbed out of the Unova Mafia. But at least ask to be subbed out, and don't just abandon the game entirely.

Inactivity breeds inactivity. If no one else is posting, then others are even less inclined to contribute because they simply don't know what to contribute. If everyone is inactive, why should anyone try to be active? There's nothing to read or analyze, no foundation upon which to build a strategy. Randomvoting, though apparently currently in vogue around here, is only exciting for so long, and rarely produces a desirable result. If the current trend is any indication, players have a remarkable ability to identify the cop early on, so perhaps instead of voting for them immediately, try and see what you can get out of engaging them in the thread.

Originally Posted by Mintaka

you will eventually run out of valid scumreads,

"what's a scumread is that a type of RNG because that's the only way to lynch people" said too many War Room members.

I don't think the focus here needs to be on playing as mafia, it needs to be on scumhunting as town. That in turn will make you a better mafia member. I've seen way too many people say "I find them suspicious." and don't say why. They then proceed, when prompted why, to say "Idk, just a gut feeling.". Gut feeling =/= suspicious. Too much emphasis is placed on vote patterns and the like and too little on actual post content/behaviour.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: use logic, not guesswork.

I have a question here that I'm not sure if it has been asked before if yes my apologies.

What is better someone not posting at all or someone posting but adding nothing/hindering the discussion?

This is something I've seen a lot being guilty of part of it myself and figure I'd like to see other peoples opinions on it.

Originally Posted by Soulmaster

I have a question here that I'm not sure if it has been asked before if yes my apologies.

What is better someone not posting at all or someone posting but adding nothing/hindering the discussion?

This is something I've seen a lot being guilty of part of it myself and figure I'd like to see other peoples opinions on it.

Define, "better?"

If by better you mean more helpful to your fellow Townies (assuming you are, in fact, a Townie), both are pretty worthless - but not posting at all is, in my opinion, slightly better. You're more likely to get yourself mislynched for "filler posts" than for inactivity. This trend tends to reverse the further you advance toward endgame.

Doesn't really matter, though, being silent and posting hollow filler-posts are pretty much equally unhelpful to the Town.

...

NOW: Zenax suggested to me that I post something I suggested in a game recently here to facilitate discussion...

When someone posts "pre-emptive conditional suspicions" right before the Phase update (i.e. If Newbie341 is about to be lynched, and Trololol14 says, "If Newbie341 flips Mafia, then X is mafia because they said 'etc.'"), how do you read this? Or do you at all?

Pre-emptive suspicion-posts, in Master Mew world (a terrifying corner of my mind I hope none of you will ever see), register as WIFOM generators. And WIFOM generators, in turn, register as roughly 85% scumtells. WIFOM confuses the Town, causes the source of the WIFOM to be dismissed, and almost always benefit the Mafia - thus, I reason, the Town should always try to avoid creating WIFOM.

Once in a while I have a bout of crazy, though, so let me know what you think.

Originally Posted by Master Mew

Originally Posted by Soulmaster

I have a question here that I'm not sure if it has been asked before if yes my apologies.

What is better someone not posting at all or someone posting but adding nothing/hindering the discussion?

This is something I've seen a lot being guilty of part of it myself and figure I'd like to see other peoples opinions on it.

Define, "better?"

If by better you mean more helpful to your fellow Townies (assuming you are, in fact, a Townie), both are pretty worthless - but not posting at all is, in my opinion, slightly better. You're more likely to get yourself mislynched for "filler posts" than for inactivity. This trend tends to reverse the further you advance toward endgame.

Doesn't really matter, though, being silent and posting hollow filler-posts are pretty much equally unhelpful to the Town.

...

NOW: Zenax suggested to me that I post something I suggested in a game recently here to facilitate discussion...

When someone posts "pre-emptive conditional suspicions" right before the Phase update (i.e. If Newbie341 is about to be lynched, and Trololol14 says, "If Newbie341 flips Mafia, then X is mafia because they said 'etc.'"), how do you read this? Or do you at all?

Pre-emptive suspicion-posts, in Master Mew world (a terrifying corner of my mind I hope none of you will ever see), register as WIFOM generators. And WIFOM generators, in turn, register as roughly 85% scumtells. WIFOM confuses the Town, causes the source of the WIFOM to be dismissed, and almost always benefit the Mafia - thus, I reason, the Town should always try to avoid creating WIFOM.

Once in a while I have a bout of crazy, though, so let me know what you think.

I don't regard it as a scumtell, just an inexperiencetell/badtell. People who post that usually seem to be under the impression that any person who suspects another town member of being scum is scummy.

No.

The whole point of mafia is that you don't know who your fellow townies are. It's completely reasonable for someone to make a mistake.

Pre-emptive conditions that are TRUE, however, are amazing and should be thought out more often. (if the Watcher watches Person X, and Person X is visited by Person Y who claimed rolecop, you know Person X is clear if Person Y flips mafia. Why would the mafia rolecop investigate his own partner?)

Something I've been doing when I refer to players anonymously to others about somebody's role is always refer to them with "them" and "they" instead of "him/her" and "he/she" because it would be a bit informative on who they are. Every little detail counts.

Originally Posted by Human

Something I've been doing when I refer to players anonymously to others about somebody's role is always refer to them with "them" and "they" instead of "him/her" and "he/she" because it would be a bit informative on who they are. Every little detail counts.

good job i bet nobody would have thought of that before

Originally Posted by Buoy

Originally Posted by Human

Something I've been doing when I refer to players anonymously to others about somebody's role is always refer to them with "them" and "they" instead of "him/her" and "he/she" because it would be a bit informative on who they are. Every little detail counts.

good job i bet nobody would have thought of that before

Why, thank you, Buoy! :D

Buoy is always so complimentary...