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  1. #91
    Formerly Hallowheart ChinYao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    I'm all for this. However, it is my hope we will see some similar rules appear for other areas and that there will be a stronger push to stop extremism in all areas more than anything.
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Perhaps an equally forthright assurance of protections for other demographics would help assuage users' misgivings?

    I worry that those whose religions teach the now censored perspectives (among others) will feel unwelcome without similar assurances of protection against hate-speech.

    There's a chance that this will fall on deaf ears, but if censorship is the route we're going, let's at least be proportionate about it.

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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Mew View Post
    Perhaps an equally forthright assurance of protections for other demographics would help assuage users' misgivings?

    I worry that those whose religions teach the now censored perspectives (among others) will feel unwelcome without similar assurances of protection against hate-speech.

    There's a chance that this will fall on deaf ears, but if censorship is the route we're going, let's at least be proportionate about it.
    5. Other forms of discrimination
    Other forms of hatred, such as racism, and sexism, will generally be given the same treatment as above, although some topics may be altogether banned (instead of tolerated) in Nicoleta's Bus; if they are, the rules of the Bus will say so.

  4. #94
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Mew View Post
    I worry that those whose religions teach the now censored perspectives (among others) will feel unwelcome without similar assurances of protection against hate-speech.
    I'm pretty sure the Bulba staff have always been proactive in infracting actual hate speech toward religious groups (including the non-religious).

    The problem is that way too many of the people who whine about this think that any criticism of their religion's tenets or practices from outsiders is considered "hate speech."
    Last edited by Misato Katsuragi; 13th June 2012 at 05:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    The problem is that way too many of the people who whine about this think that any criticism of their religion's tenets or practices from outsiders is considered "hate speech."
    Wouldn't that be a proportionate protection given this new policy?

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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    No, it wouldn't. And if you really don't understand why it isn't, I..... don't even know where to begin with you.
    Last edited by Misato Katsuragi; 13th June 2012 at 03:03 PM.

    Hi, I'm Rose. I love music, alcohol, pointless Internet debates and being a snob about my choices in entertainment. I write a lot. You can read some of my writing at Autostraddle.com, the best site for LBTQ women on the Internet, where I am a staff writer. Or the funhouse that is my tumblr. I also write music sometimes, and post the better fruits of my labors on my SoundCloud.

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    Registered User The Outrage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Religion is a belief system, and you can debate the merits and downfalls of people having such a belief system. However, I'd think the rule would protect religious views by not allowing people to call religious individuals "mindless sheep" and whatnot. I've seen the merits of religion debated without such name calling.

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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Goodbye Blue Monday View Post
    No, it wouldn't. And if you really don't understand why it isn't, I..... don't even know where to begin with you.
    Nice. Rather than explain your position, you just declare me too stupid to converse with.

    Since you didn't expound on the stated difference, I'll assume here it would have fallen somewhere along the lines of one choosing their faith-based values, while one does not choose their sexual orientation - thus validating the disproportionate protections.

    Of course, what is to you a choice is to the religious no choice at all - from their perspective, their faith is the reality of the world around them. They can't simply change it at will because they are tired of being mocked. If I were to mock someone for believing the sky is blue, would you suggest that they merely stop believing that and the problem would go away? Unlikely.

    You believe, I assume, that homosexuality is natural based off of, I assume, personal knowledge and experience. The religious believe that a higher power exists and that their holy books are authored by that power, based not off of a mere, off-the-cuff "choice," but due to their personal knowledge and experiences. There are many reasons why one might change their beliefs about the world around them, but being mocked isn't one of them.

    To them, their beliefs are every bit as much an incontrovertible reality as a sexual orientation is to anyone else.

    Obviously there are no perfect metaphors, there will always be differences between any two things one attempts to parallel, but I see no consequential difference here.

    If we ban the mocking, harassing, insulting, and degrading of one group unilaterally, why not extend that same protection to everyone?

  9. #99
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Yes, Master Mew, the reason I wasn't addressing you is because you've shown a certain degree of willful ignorance and obtuseness on this issue in the past, and I fail to see why I should waste my time arguing with someone like that. All your wall-of-text did was further convince me that I was right. Your argument had nothing to with anything I was thinking.

    But I'll state the obvious anyway, for the sake of others listening in:

    Again, as I said, I have no problem with getting rid of ACTUAL religiously-motivated harassment. I'm all for infracting someone who says something like "All Muslims are terrorists" or "If you're religious you must be stupid" or whatever. I don't believe that just because religion is a choice (and I think that's a rather shallow way of looking at it anyway, since it's more "deeply felt conviction" than flippant choice) that people should be harassed for it. But an outsider disagreeing with the tenets and practices of a particular religion is not harassing people of that religion. First of all, there is no religion on Earth where people all interpret those the same way. Christians alone run the gamut from extremely liberal to extremely conservative, strict Biblical literalism to reading the Bible metaphorically/allegorically to not caring much about the Bible at all - and everything inbetween those extremes. So bashing one particular belief (say, opposition to homosexuality) is not bashing a whole religion.

    Second of all, it's not like being an outsider of a religion means that you are not affected at all by it. Many of us were raised in one religion and later converted to another one or became non-religious; you bet we still have opinions on our former faiths. My dad's a pastor, for Pete's sake, so Christianity is a frequently-discussed topic in my family even though I don't consider myself a Christian. In addition, given the way that religious values and stories have influenced so many other, secular aspects of our culture - from philosophy to the arts - it's a part of our shared cultural heritage. Lastly, religious values, particularly the fundamentalist Christian values that I know are the ones you're thinking of here, are frequently used as a way to limit the rights of those who are not members of that religion. LGBT rights are one of the most prominent examples of this. You can't very well use those as a weapon to attack MY rights and then tell me I can't fight back.

    On the contrary, there are no "tenets" or "practices" to being LGBT. ALL it's about is which gender(s) you are sexually or romantically to and/or which gender(s) you identify as. NOTHING else. There is nothing you can criticize about "being LGBT" that doesn't essentially amount to criticizing LGBT people themselves. Whereas, there are a lot of ways you can criticize tenets of Christianity (or Islam or Buddhism or Wicca or atheism) without bashing Christians (or Muslims or Buddhists or Wiccans or atheists), for the reasons I explained above.

    Religion is an identity and a belief system. Sexual orientation/gender identity are just identities. That's the difference. It's the criticism of identities that is wrong here, not the criticism of beliefs.
    Last edited by Misato Katsuragi; 13th June 2012 at 10:32 PM.

    Hi, I'm Rose. I love music, alcohol, pointless Internet debates and being a snob about my choices in entertainment. I write a lot. You can read some of my writing at Autostraddle.com, the best site for LBTQ women on the Internet, where I am a staff writer. Or the funhouse that is my tumblr. I also write music sometimes, and post the better fruits of my labors on my SoundCloud.

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    1. While religion has a great importance in the life of many people, at the end of the day, embracing a religion or not remain a choice.

    2. As such, while it will receive protection against discrimination and negative opinions, educated commentary on the topic, even if it goes against this or that belief, will be allowed. Criticism of religious organizations (which are like any other human organizations) will not be banned.

    Example:
    a. "The crossing of the red sea is such a fairy tale, it's dumb to believe someone could have parted water". Not okay.
    b. "The crossing of the red sea is a part of Hebrew oral history that was written down centuries later. It should not be taken as a perfect historical account. Some translators believe it refers not to the red sea, but to a reed sea." Acceptable.
    c. "The Catholic Church has at various time immoraly covered up sex scandals involving priests." Acceptable.

    3. This thread not being about religion, drop it.
    Last edited by Evil Figment; 13th June 2012 at 10:35 PM.
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  11. #101
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Mew View Post
    You believe, I assume, that homosexuality is natural based off of, I assume, personal knowledge and experience.
    It is natural. Anyone believing otherwise is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Mew View Post
    If we ban the mocking, harassing, insulting, and degrading of one group unilaterally, why not extend that same protection to everyone?
    If you'd read the announcement you'd see we are.

  12. #102
    Formerly Hallowheart ChinYao's Avatar
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Figment View Post
    1. While religion has a great importance in the life of many people, at the end of the day, embracing a religion or not remain a choice.

    2. As such, while it will receive protection against discrimination and negative opinions, certain criticism of specific beliefs will be tolerated. Criticism of religious organizations (which are like any other human organizations) will not be banned.

    Example:
    a. "The crossing of the red sea is such a fairy tale, it's dumb to believe someone could have parted water". Not okay.
    b. "The crossing of the red sea is a part of Hebrew oral history that was written down centuries later. It should not be taken as a perfect historical account. Some translators believe it refers not to the red sea, but to a reed sea." Acceptable.
    c. "The Catholic Church has at various time immoraly covered up sex scandals involving priests." Acceptable.

    3. This thread not being about religion, drop it.
    You're right. This thread is about the equality act. Members would like you to assure them that you will protect them as equally as any other member, and asking for protection from harassment for being religious is just as valid as asking for any other sort of protection. The OP said that this was a rule concerning all acts of hatred and discrimination, so members should be able to ask and feel assured that the staff, their supposed rule enforcers and fair protectors, will protect them when needed or at least help them to better understand the new equality act.

    It really seems most members would just like to better understand the entire ins-and-outs of the rule, and you might feel all questions have been answered, but it wouldn't be fair to cut off their ability to ask--no question is a stupid question.
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  13. #103
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Why don't we simplify this down a bit for anyone that wants to join this rather large scale debate.

    In my opinion, this isn't about Gays or Lesbians or Religions or any of that.

    All this does is make sure you are not a douchebag to certain people because who they like.

    But alas, let me extend this even further if I may. My first question to all the people who disagree with this for some strange reason is why do you have such a problem with people liking the same gender? It isn't obviously harming you so why should you care?

    Second of all, people obviously forget that in the exact same part of the Bible it says that people cannot practice homosexuality it also says that men shall not shave and also to burn cows in order to ask for forgiveness for your sins. So obviously you are being a hypocrite by criticizing people who violate that section since everyone violates that section as well so you are not better than they are.


    Third of all, this is a Pokemon forum. If you want to debate and hate homosexuals, go to the Westboro Baptist Website or something like that. However, if you just want to be like myself and just enjoy the fucking internet, feel free to stay.

  14. #104
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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    Well, while part of me wants to make further inquiries concerning policy changes and enforcement, I have no real desire to be further patronized for asking questions and seeking assurance that others will be treated fairly.

    Apparently, merely asking is equivalent to being bigoted myself and grants the community free-reign to treat me as such.

    For the record, I support LGBT equality and respect members of the LGBT community as fellow human beings who are my equal in every way and would never dream of intentionally hurting them - and yet, despite this fact (which one would think would render me unaffected by this policy-change), I already feel less welcome here.

    Tar-and-feather me if you must, I should have known better than to defend a demographic the majority of the community vehemently disagrees with.

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    Default Re: Striving for Equality

    To clarify, I have no objection to people asking question of the staff, and the staff answering.

    I do have objection to two members taking it up to a personal debate between them.

    If you have further question for me, ask them. If you wish to further question those questions, that's fine too.

    But debating it amongs your (non-mod) selves is not on topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mintaka and Hurristat
    He's an evil director / He'll give out infractions / Do something wrong / And he takes direct actions
    Then what'll he do?/ He'll permaban you / You find your name slashed / With a message, 'Adieu'
    Sooooo...watch out!
    "It is said that the federal government, if it was in charge of the Sahara, would run out of sand in five years. Private enterprise, being more efficient, would do it in half the time - and they'd make money off the bridges." - me.
    "My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world." - Jack Layton's last letter. Rest in peace, Jack.

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