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  1. #31
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Wow I opened a can of worms apparently :x
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    It it was based off of the anime, then Ash would have been the trainer, not Red. Sakurai specifically wanted to avoid anime characters for Pokemon, even if the anime helped Purin and Lucario get in.
    Thank you for repeating what I just said from my first post. Also, Sakurai wanted to avoid using characters exclusive to other anime and manga (Ex: Escargoon), not just Pokemon.

    Plus Iris isn't nearly as popular as stupid Kasumi. Haruka and Hikari are also quite popular, too.
    But the fact that Iris is in the anime as the current female lead automatically disqualified Kasumi, Haruka, and Hikari.

    Zelda and Ganny are important main characters of the games. You can't compare them to Iris, it's not the same thing. Iris isn't important in the Pokemon games, she's just GL/Champion. The anime has nothing to do with the games.
    It's still the same because BW2 made Iris as popular as Red, Green, Takeshi, Kasumi, Cynthia, and Touko. Your mentioning of the anime not having to do with the games contradicts how Purin and Lucario got in. But even if they decide not to pick Iris, Touko will still not be chosen due to her not being around the same age as Red, so they have to pick Haruka, Hikari, Kotone, Leaf, or Crystal.
    Look back at Melee, when the Pokemon was just starting to get over it's peak in fad-dom. All Kasumi got a trophy due to her popularity in the anime. If Iris does get into Smash 4, she'll be a trophy, too. Anime-popularity for Pokemon seems to affect just Pokemon, not human-characters, otherwise we'd have Satoshi instead of Red. Really now.

    As for the Zelda/Ganny example, Zelda and Pokemon are two entirely different universes, with different mascot criteria, I should think. Zelda and Ganondorf are both extremely prominent characters in their series (it's not like Zelda is named after it or anything), and Ganondorf is effectively the series main villain. It would be stupid not to introduce them into Smash in Melee. None of the anime-female-leads have big roles in their games, unless it's RSE or DPPt and you chose Haruka/Hikari. And since it was the FRLG hero who got in, not the FRLG heroine, it's obvious that the next trainer to replace him should he be replaced will be another male trainer.

    Since I doubt it will be a girl trainer, otherwise we'd get to choose between both heroes of FRLG. It'll be Hibiki, Yuuki, Kouki, or Kyouhei (since Touya is apparently too old, like Touko).

    The axed characters should present an idea as to why it will be a guy. Toon Link got in, but Tetra (I'm guessing this is who they mean by "Toon Zelda") got the boot. It's why Lyn is just an assist trophy when it's glaringly obvious she could have been playable. And why there's no Krystal, even if she's hated in Japan. Smash is very much a male-dominated cast, and as bad as it sounds coming from a woman, I'd actually prefer it that way.
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  3. #33
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    [Look back at Melee, when the Pokemon was just starting to get over it's peak in fad-dom. All Kasumi got a trophy due to her popularity in the anime. If Iris does get into Smash 4, she'll be a trophy, too. Anime-popularity for Pokemon seems to affect just Pokemon, not human-characters, otherwise we'd have Satoshi instead of Red. Really now.
    Charizard was just Pokeball Pokemon before getting promoted to being playable for Red's team, so there's still a bit of hope for Kasumi. If Pokemon doesn't affect human-characters, then Red wouldn't be in Brawl in the first place.

    As for the Zelda/Ganny example, Zelda and Pokemon are two entirely different universes, with different mascot criteria, I should think. Zelda and Ganondorf are both extremely prominent characters in their series (it's not like Zelda is named after it or anything), and Ganondorf is effectively the series main villain. It would be stupid not to introduce them into Smash in Melee. None of the anime-female-leads have big roles in their games, unless it's RSE or DPPt and you chose Haruka/Hikari. And since it was the FRLG hero who got in, not the FRLG heroine, it's obvious that the next trainer to replace him should he be replaced will be another male trainer.
    They can't replace the FRLG hero with another male trainer because default characters are never axed (Peach, Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, and the Ice Climbers were the new default characters in Melee, and they all made it in Brawl).

    Since I doubt it will be a girl trainer, otherwise we'd get to choose between both heroes of FRLG. It'll be Hibiki, Yuuki, Kouki, or Kyouhei (since Touya is apparently too old, like Touko).
    Kyouhei may be younger than Touya, he's still too old to be around Red's age. Out of the other three, only Hibiki is popular among the other male trainers who aren't Red.

    The axed characters should present an idea as to why it will be a guy. Toon Link got in, but Tetra (I'm guessing this is who they mean by "Toon Zelda") got the boot. It's why Lyn is just an assist trophy when it's glaringly obvious she could have been playable. And why there's no Krystal, even if she's hated in Japan. Smash is very much a male-dominated cast, and as bad as it sounds coming from a woman, I'd actually prefer it that way.
    If you looked at the hacked data in Brawl, you'll see that Dixie Kong and Toon Zelda were originally going to be in the game before time constraints got them axed. There's still hope to have a female trainer as a separate character rather than an alternate costume for Red due to voice issues (I can't imagine Leaf sounding more masculine than she should sound like).

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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis View Post
    Charizard was just Pokeball Pokemon before getting promoted to being playable for Red's team, so there's still a bit of hope for Kasumi. If Pokemon doesn't affect human-characters, then Red wouldn't be in Brawl in the first place.
    Except Red was never in the anime, Satoshi was. It doesn't matter if Satoshi is based off of Red, they are still completely different characters. Kasumi is way past her time, and she was never a playable character in Pokemon. Anime HUMAN characters don't become playable, they get a trophy in Melee and nothing in Brawl. The Pokemon themselves, on the other hand, get in because they're popular, no doubt because of their anime stardom.

    They can't replace the FRLG hero with another male trainer because default characters are never axed (Peach, Bowser, Zelda/Sheik, and the Ice Climbers were the new default characters in Melee, and they all made it in Brawl).
    Young Link got replaced with Toon Link, and OOT!Link got replaced with TP!Link (and Zelda). Red can possibly be replaced by another male trainer who'll do the exact same thing.

    Kyouhei may be younger than Touya, he's still too old to be around Red's age. Out of the other three, only Hibiki is popular among the other male trainers who aren't Red.
    Kyouhei looks young enough to me (that stupid trailer be damned), but that's entirely subjective. Because of that trailer, Kyouhei has gotten himself a LOT of fans.

    If you looked at the hacked data in Brawl, you'll see that Dixie Kong and Toon Zelda were originally going to be in the game before time constraints got them axed. There's still hope to have a female trainer as a separate character rather than an alternate costume for Red due to voice issues (I can't imagine Leaf sounding more masculine than she should sound like).
    Toon Zelda makes sense getting cut, but Dixie had no reason to be cut, since there's only 2 "Donkey Kong" representatives. Brawl certainly got delayed enough. As for the FRLG heroine, she can have an alternate costume with her own voice, it really wouldn't be hard. And why shouldn't she get a husky, deep voice? One of my friends in elementary school had a rather deepish voice for a 10-year-old girl. Not "HUR" deep, but certainly not "airy", "high-pitched", or "feminine". It does happen in girls once in a while.
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    Except Red was never in the anime, Satoshi was. It doesn't matter if Satoshi is based off of Red, they are still completely different characters. Kasumi is way past her time, and she was never a playable character in Pokemon. Anime HUMAN characters don't become playable, they get a trophy in Melee and nothing in Brawl. The Pokemon themselves, on the other hand, get in because they're popular, no doubt because of their anime stardom.
    Purin is way past her time too since she hasn't appeared in the anime for years, but she still got in due to the whole original 12 thing. Ness was originally going to be replaced by Lucas in Melee until Mother 3 got delayed again, and everyone thought Ness will be fully gone now that Lucas got in until revealed in Brawl's intro.

    Young Link got replaced with Toon Link, and OOT!Link got replaced with TP!Link (and Zelda). Red can possibly be replaced by another male trainer who'll do the exact same thing.
    Young Link and Toon Link are unlockables, so of course they can use the same moveset and play style. Both adult Links and Zeldas look almost the same, depsite being canonically different. The only way they were ever to replace Red with another trainer is if first appeared as an unlockable rather than a default character. But even then, they'll never get rid of him because he's the closest trainer looking like Satoshi, which kids always think of when hearing Pokemon, along with Pikachu.

    Kyouhei looks young enough to me (that stupid trailer be damned), but that's entirely subjective. Because of that trailer, Kyouhei has gotten himself a LOT of fans.
    And Mei.

    Toon Zelda makes sense getting cut, but Dixie had no reason to be cut, since there's only 2 "Donkey Kong" representatives. Brawl certainly got delayed enough. As for the FRLG heroine, she can have an alternate costume with her own voice, it really wouldn't be hard. And why shouldn't she get a husky, deep voice? One of my friends in elementary school had a rather deepish voice for a 10-year-old girl. Not "HUR" deep, but certainly not "airy", "high-pitched", or "feminine". It does happen in girls once in a while.
    You're not even bothered about Toon Zelda yet you are with Dixie Kong when they are both females? The former has always been in every smash player's roster prediction since Brawl, and the latter to some extent. The FRLG heroine's voice change can't be done because that's not how alternate costumes work (characters in fighting games are usually never given different voice works when wearing a different costume that resembles another character).

    Look, it's really getting tiresome trying to debate against you. You never seem to analyze the past three games as much as I do to fully understand what I'm talking about.

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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis View Post
    Purin is way past her time too since she hasn't appeared in the anime for years, but she still got in due to the whole original 12 thing. Ness was originally going to be replaced by Lucas in Melee until Mother 3 got delayed again, and everyone thought Ness will be fully gone now that Lucas got in until revealed in Brawl's intro.
    Purin isn't a HUMAN character though. You're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. I'm not good at articulating myself, so I'll try again: Pokemon characters become popular with HELP from the anime. It helps them into Smash. HUMAN Pokemon characters don't. If the anime influenced anything in Brawl (NOT Melee), then we'd have Satoshi instead of Red. Human anime characters don't get in, but Pokemon themselves because of their popularity boosted by the anime.

    That's why Iris won't get in, even if Zoroark does. Both get popular because of the anime, but Zoroark is already usable in the Pokemon GAMES. Iris never is playable in the GAMES, so she won't be in Smash 4.

    Young Link and Toon Link are unlockables, so of course they can use the same moveset and play style. Both adult Links and Zeldas look almost the same, depsite being canonically different. The only way they were ever to replace Red with another trainer is if first appeared as an unlockable rather than a default character. But even then, they'll never get rid of him because he's the closest trainer looking like Satoshi, which kids always think of when hearing Pokemon, along with Pikachu.
    It doesn't change that OOT/TP Link and Zelda are 2 separate people, even if they have the same name. (OOT Zelda and TP Zelda look nothing alike!) Red could easily be replaced by another trainer who will do the exact same thing and BE the exact same thing (a Pokemon Trainer, which is what Red is called in Brawl).

    And Mei.
    Yes, but she's also the girl Trainer. I already gave my reason earlier about why any trainer that would replace Red will be a male trainer.

    You're not even bothered about Toon Zelda yet you are with Dixie Kong when they are both females? The former has always been in every smash player's roster prediction since Brawl, and the latter to some extent. The FRLG heroine's voice change can't be done because that's not how alternate costumes work (characters in fighting games are usually never given different voice works when wearing a different costume that resembles another character).

    Look, it's really getting tiresome trying to debate against you. You never seem to analyze the past three games as much as I do to fully understand what I'm talking about.
    I'm not bothered at all by Dixie, I don't play the series she comes from. And I think Toon Zelda is meant to be a "Young Zelda" of sorts, like Toon Link. So Toon Zelda isn't TP!Zelda, so she hasn't been in Melee or Brawl.

    And that's true, but it can easily change too if Sakurai wanted.

    I do enough analyzing in English class. D8; I just can't resist a good debate to argue, even if I can't articulate too well. But it just seems your reasoning is silly when it comes to anime characters. Melee and Brawl were developed by 2 different companies: Melee by HAL, and Brawl by Sakurai's own company, Project Sora. So obviously, Sakurai can say "no anime characters" and MEAN it this time. Iris won't be in Smash 4, no human anime character will. Anyone who replaces Red will be another male GAME trainer (Hibiki, Yuuki, Kouki, Touya, or Kyouhei), it doesn't matter who; if there's even a replacement in the first place.
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by FairyRed View Post
    Purin isn't a HUMAN character though. You're missing the point of what I'm trying to say. I'm not good at articulating myself, so I'll try again: Pokemon characters become popular with HELP from the anime. It helps them into Smash. HUMAN Pokemon characters don't. If the anime influenced anything in Brawl (NOT Melee), then we'd have Satoshi instead of Red. Human anime characters don't get in, but Pokemon themselves because of their popularity boosted by the anime.

    That's why Iris won't get in, even if Zoroark does. Both get popular because of the anime, but Zoroark is already usable in the Pokemon GAMES. Iris never is playable in the GAMES, so she won't be in Smash 4.
    You keep mentioning that human characters will never be picked yet we have Red in Brawl. Must I remind you that Metaknight first appeared as a trophy before being promoted to being playable (same with King Dedede when he was a background character), it means Kasumi's game incarnation would've still been chosen if Iris hadn't stolen her spot as the female lead in the anime. I should mention one of my theories that each SSB title introduces two new Pokemon reps (64 had Pikachu and Jigglypuff, Melee had Mewtwo and Pichu, and Brawl had Red and Lucario), since we have sequels for BW, then it's possible to have both Zoroark and Iris in the roster to represent one of the two (Zoroark for BW1, and Iris for BW2).

    It doesn't change that OOT/TP Link and Zelda are 2 separate people, even if they have the same name. (OOT Zelda and TP Zelda look nothing alike!) Red could easily be replaced by another trainer who will do the exact same thing and BE the exact same thing (a Pokemon Trainer, which is what Red is called in Brawl).
    What part of "default character" do you not understand? The thing is, Red is the only trainer who closely resembles Satoshi, who fans and non-fans view when it comes to Pokemon, so they'll mostly likely use Red's latest design, just like Link and Zelda, rather than another male trainer. Also, he uses the Kanto starters, so using a trainer from another region would make it completely out of theme, and they are certainly not going to replace them with another set of staters due to their status as classics.

    Yes, but she's also the girl Trainer. I already gave my reason earlier about why any trainer that would replace Red will be a male trainer.
    And I've already gave my reason earlier about why Red will never be replaced. Even the smash players hate the idea of Red being replaced by another male trainer.

    I do enough analyzing in English class. D8; I just can't resist a good debate to argue, even if I can't articulate too well. But it just seems your reasoning is silly when it comes to anime characters. Melee and Brawl were developed by 2 different companies: Melee by HAL, and Brawl by Sakurai's own company, Project Sora. So obviously, Sakurai can say "no anime characters" and MEAN it this time. Iris won't be in Smash 4, no human anime character will. Anyone who replaces Red will be another male GAME trainer (Hibiki, Yuuki, Kouki, Touya, or Kyouhei), it doesn't matter who; if there's even a replacement in the first place.
    When I say we end this debate, I mean stop trying to respond to my counters with your counters. Not only are you making this debate unwinnable, but you're also proving my point that I'll never earn respect from other users if they disagree with my ideas because theirs are better, forcing me to give up my dreams and go with the flow. I've been studying the series for four years now, and my research means to me more than anything else when it comes to predicting rosters.
    Last edited by Ghetsis-Dennis; 17th October 2012 at 08:42 PM.

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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Eh, fine by me. Though I imagine they'd replace him with the Gen 6 hero...
    (certainly wouldn't be at all surprised)

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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Fine, I'll drop it, @Ghetsis-Dennis; but I think you're overreacting. :/ A simple argument shouldn't destroy your resolve or whatever. There's still no way Iris will ever be in Smash 4.

    The title really says it all. If anybody is gonna replace Red, it'll be another male trainer, yes sadly, most likely Hibiki.
    Last edited by PKMN Trainer Faye; 18th October 2012 at 06:29 PM. Reason: hit "submit" too early
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that... most of the pokemon elements are there for "nostalgic" purposes. Not every college kid is going to play both pokemon and ssmb.
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    ...this thread went downhill quickly.

    Can't we go ahead and reiterate that Sakurai (or Masuda) apparently forbade the use of the anime counterparts of characters? Their popularity in the anime might influence the decision to include the character, of course, but if that statement is anything to go by, only the game counterparts would be chosen. This is very much why Pokémon Trainer is Red's design - people like his anime counterpart, Ash (and others hate it for the same reasons, really, but that's beside the point) and a lot of people were like "Awesome!" when they discovered Red in Pokémon Gold & Silver as the true final boss of the game.

    About the only thing that makes me think that the Pokémon Trainer, if returning, has some sort of alternate outfit to choose from, it would be in some sort of custom option mode. Let's not forget that Namco Bandai are helping with the game - they could have influenced the game design. I'm intrigued to see, if ever, a Tekken style custom tool for the characters of the next Smash Bros.
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wishmaker Jirachi View Post
    Can't we go ahead and reiterate that Sakurai (or Masuda) apparently forbade the use of the anime counterparts of characters? Their popularity in the anime might influence the decision to include the character, of course, but if that statement is anything to go by, only the game counterparts would be chosen. This is very much why Pokémon Trainer is Red's design - people like his anime counterpart, Ash (and others hate it for the same reasons, really, but that's beside the point) and a lot of people were like "Awesome!" when they discovered Red in Pokémon Gold & Silver as the true final boss of the game.
    This was what I was trying to talk about this whole entire time regarding why Red will not be replaced and why Iris will mostly likely be included (her game incarnation, possibly her BW2 form, with mixed traits from her anime incarnation like how Lucario used telepathy in Brawl) with Zoroark.
    Wishmaker Jirachi likes this.

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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghetsis-Dennis View Post
    This was what I was trying to talk about this whole entire time regarding why Red will not be replaced and why Iris will mostly likely be included (her game incarnation, possibly her BW2 form, with mixed traits from her anime incarnation like how Lucario used telepathy in Brawl) with Zoroark.
    I can imagine the new Adventure Mode now. Iris looking up, and suddenly there's Kyurem from above! Dragons taking down Dragons.

    I wonder if that calls to increase damage/knockback from both sides if there was such a boss battle...given that Brawl introduced a few bosses having weaknesses to certain elements - the most obvious (but hard-to-exploit) example is that Rayquaza doesn't take as much damage from most elemental attacks except for Ice, which only a few characters such as the Ice Climbers have.

    It's interesting that you point out things about the anime incarnation having mixed with the game incarnations, which does raise a point about how to speculatet these characters. For example, will it be an Axew or a Haxorus? Gym Leader incarnation or Champion incarnation?
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    Default Re: What if they replaced Red with Ethan in the next SSB?

    Honestly, Iris would be a terrible choice. N would be much better. He'd also be a game character, more relevant, will probably show up in Gen 6, and could have an awesome final smash with Zekrom/Reshiram. Red, however, needs to retire badly. The last time he was important ended when B/W came out. Regardless of frequency or not, even Ghetsis fighting with his cane and Kyurem or something, would be a better character at this point. And regardless of male/female ratios, I think that a potential Pokémon trainer should be the Gen 5 or 6 PCs, male and female.
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