Thread: Underwater Ruins deciphered

Maybe the king was the father of the twin heroes?

You know, this has just made me decide not to sell my pokemon white. thanks. :)

Originally Posted by CallMeCubone

Well, N was always going on about formulas. He just seems very math-y. And prime numbers are math-y. XD That's all.

Oh okay ^_^'

Originally Posted by Champion Ben

is there a map for the 2nd floor?

Well, look the very first post in this thread, then click at the japanese site link and you can see it there.

Originally Posted by Lugion

Maybe the king was the father of the twin heroes?

I don't think so, because the King defeated (probably Rehsiram/zekrom) and then the other one joined him. It's not like the father went through that..

Also, I researched some more (I've got nothing better to do LOL) and a NPC (man in suit ehh?) outside Relic Castle says:

"According to what I've heard, that
Relic Castle is the ruins of a city built
by the hero of old and the dragon
Pokémon that accompanied the hero."

..and another NPC, one of the psychics when you enter the ruins;
"It is said that long ago, these ruins
were the heart of civilization for people
and Pokémon in the Unova region."

I dare say Relic Castle and Abyssal Ruins are strongly connected..

Is it possible that the myth refers to one of the twin heroes, but version dependant? Like it refers to one of them in White, the other in Black, and in the third version it will "combine" the stories. Like with Dialga/Palkia and Kyogre/Groudon before?

I find it strange that the text is about "King" and the first track in Pokémon Black & White Super Music Collection is called "The Day I Became King (王になった日)" do you think that the title may be hinting at the text from the ruins and "King" or is unrealted to this?

When you try to sell the Relic Crown to the collector, he tells you that you might want to keep it because it could be important. What purpose will it serve in Gray?

he doesn't try to talk you out of it. He just says he'll understand if you keep it.

Originally Posted by Ryuutakeshi

he doesn't try to talk you out of it. He just says he'll understand if you keep it.

Still, the fact that he says that there might be some importance to what seems to be mere vendor trash suggests that it'll have at least some significance in the third version.

Originally Posted by JSaintDynamiteX

Is it possible that the myth refers to one of the twin heroes, but version dependant? Like it refers to one of them in White, the other in Black, and in the third version it will "combine" the stories. Like with Dialga/Palkia and Kyogre/Groudon before?

The stories were already combined in Black and White. While various NPCs only refer to one hero and one dragon in the early parts of the game, by the end Iris, Drayden and eventually N clarify that there were two of each. Reshiram and Zekrom already co-exist perfectly in either version.

The twin heroes are depicted as equals in the story: "The twin heroes, too, could not find either to be right in their struggle... So the struggle was ended..." Neither side was able to defeat the other, unlike the king who was told to have defeated what would appear to be one of the dragons.

Originally Posted by YWtheLucida

I dare say Relic Castle and Abyssal Ruins are strongly connected..

I'd say that's a rash conclusion. It is akin to saying that the Ruins of Alph and Ecruteak City have to be connected due to both being referenced in the context of Johto's past. Such a connection may exist, but let's just say that none of the Johto games truly gave that impression, barring Crystal's single reference to the bond between Suicune and Unown.

As a matter of fact, the valuable items in the Abyssal Ruins are described as having been made about 3,000 years ago, whereas the Relic Castle was only said to be built over 2,500 years ago. While the wording technically makes it possible that these places were built by the same civilization, chances are that Game Freak chose those numbers carefully, which is to say the events really were 500 years apart.

At any rate, the Relic Castle isn't really that important to the story, considering that the second stone ended up not being there. Far more relevant is the Dragonspiral Tower, which Cedric Juniper described as the oldest structure in the Unova region, as well as the place where the legendary Pokémon was born. It is fair to say that Juniper was inaccurate, though, because he later turned out not to know as much as Drayden and Iris did, and they made it clear that the Reshiram and Zekrom were split from a single dragon (possibly in the Dragonspiral Tower, but they didn't reference it). Still, where was that dragon born? Does the Dragonspiral Tower predate the Abyssal Ruins? I rather doubt it.

The way I see it, the king could not have been either one of the twins. If he lived before them, then Reshiram and Zekrom were in fact separate even before the twin heroes came along, complicating the dragons' history by a great deal. With nothing else in the games to support this theory, a simpler explanation may be in order.

Originally Posted by Link

I find it strange that the text is about "King" and the first track in Pokémon Black & White Super Music Collection is called "The Day I Became King (王になった日)" do you think that the title may be hinting at the text from the ruins and "King" or is unrealted to this?

I'm now inclined to believe that the king is none other than Hilbert (not Hilda for obvious reasons), and that the Abyssal Ruins tell of a prophecy rather than a past event. I dismissed that theory a few months back on grounds of the player needing Reshiram/Zekrom to defeat Zekrom/Reshiram, unlike the king who defeated it alone. But perhaps "alone" means something deeper than the king taking on the dragon by himself... It wouldn't do if an omnipotent king reigned over Pokémon, would it?

The idea that the player character is now a "King" rather than a "Champion" seems bizarre at first, but obviously someone at Game Freak found the term appealing. I think that the ambiguity might be explained by the fact Hilbert was faced with the prospect of being apart from his Pokémon, and he really was alone in his determination to face N. After all, he did go to N's castle without knowing how the second dragon would be revived, so even though the dragon was awake by the time the battle started, an argument could be made that Hilbert was essentially on his own for a while; if N had not been so honorable, he could have forced Hilbert to part with his Pokémon back in the Dragonspiral Tower.

But the real message of the ruins might simply be that the Pokémon in Unova will be treated differently after all that has happened, and that N's words will not have gone lost on Hilbert.

Originally Posted by Amarillo

Still, the fact that he says that there might be some importance to what seems to be mere vendor trash suggests that it'll have at least some significance in the third version.

The collector wants the Relic Crown (which is hardly vendor trash by any stretch of the imagination) for himself just like with all the other valuable-looking items. While the Relic Crown is the only item he makes a special comment on ("It is understandable that you want to treasure it,"), he quickly goes on to assert that that it should be sold nonetheless ("but you will sell it to me for 300000? Will you?"). If this is Game Freak's way of making us realize that the item will unlock something in the future, it is so roundabout that hardly anyone is going to heed that advice.

Even if the Relic Stone were used in the third version, why would we need to have one from Black and White? Another one would be available in that game.

As a matter of fact, the valuable items in the Abyssal Ruins are described as having been made about 3,000 years ago, whereas the Relic Castle was only said to be built over 2,500 years ago.

I was under the impression that the civilization died out 2,500 years ago

Originally Posted by Outrage

I was under the impression that the civilization died out 2,500 years ago

Look it up in the text dump; that's what it's for. I have to make do with a game script translated from Japanese.

Originally Posted by Silktree

Look it up in the text dump; that's what it's for. I have to make do with a game script translated from Japanese.

Well, this is the translated Japanese, the English version was usually left unchanged:

Juniper: Hiiii there! White!
I heard about these Pokémon statues and came to investigate!
By the way, these statues are actually Pokémon called Darmanitan.
They're currently asleep and all hardened up.
As for how long they've existed, well, a rough estimate...
Like, wow! Over 2500 years ago! That seems to be when they fell asleep, at least.
It's around the same era in which this ruin, the Relic Castle, was prosperous.
Could it possibly be they were guarding the town?

She mentions that the Darmanitan existed around the same time in which the Relic Castle was very prosperous. The castle itself could have existed long before the civilization reached its golden age. But yeah, I doubt the Relic Castle was dedicated to the Unovan heroes. It's very possible that they were a separate civilization, probably a sun-worshiping one considering the castle's association with Volcarona.

Originally Posted by Outrage

She mentions that the Darmanitan existed around the same time in which the Relic Castle was very prosperous. The castle itself could have existed long before the civilization reached its golden age.

I doubt the Relic Castle was prosperous 500 years after it had been built. But it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

This thread was really helpful, I thank you all for the information provided.

Originally Posted by Silktree

At any rate, the Relic Castle isn't really that important to the story, considering that the second stone ended up not being there. Far more relevant is the Dragonspiral Tower, which Cedric Juniper described as the oldest structure in the Unova region, as well as the place where the legendary Pokémon was born. It is fair to say that Juniper was inaccurate, though, because he later turned out not to know as much as Drayden and Iris did, and they made it clear that the Reshiram and Zekrom were split from a single dragon (possibly in the Dragonspiral Tower, but they didn't reference it). Still, where was that dragon born? Does the Dragonspiral Tower predate the Abyssal Ruins? I rather doubt it.

But the stone originally was there, but some archeologists or something moved it to Nacrene museum. Relic castle does have a rather mystic connection with the dragons and twins.

Originally Posted by YWtheLucida

"According to what I've heard, that
Relic Castle is the ruins of a city built
by the hero of old and the dragon
Pokémon that accompanied the hero."

Originally Posted by Silktree

I'm now inclined to believe that the king is none other than Hilbert (not Hilda for obvious reasons), and that the Abyssal Ruins tell of a prophecy rather than a past event. I dismissed that theory a few months back on grounds of the player needing Reshiram/Zekrom to defeat Zekrom/Reshiram, unlike the king who defeated it alone. But perhaps "alone" means something deeper than the king taking on the dragon by himself... It wouldn't do if an omnipotent king reigned over Pokémon, would it?

The idea that the player character is now a "King" rather than a "Champion" seems bizarre at first, but obviously someone at Game Freak found the term appealing. I think that the ambiguity might be explained by the fact Hilbert was faced with the prospect of being apart from his Pokémon, and he really was alone in his determination to face N. After all, he did go to N's castle without knowing how the second dragon would be revived, so even though the dragon was awake by the time the battle started, an argument could be made that Hilbert was essentially on his own for a while; if N had not been so honorable, he could have forced Hilbert to part with his Pokémon back in the Dragonspiral Tower.

No. Just... No.

If it's Hilbert then what are those 'waves' he saved evryone from? and evrything except one sentence is written in past tense which doesn't fit into a prophercy at all, and I don't remember my character being connected to prime numbers since I do not have Reshiram.

The only things that would support this theory are that King defeated X and Y joined him, that it's vice versa in the games and the only sentence written in present; "King is hope and future."

Also, what about us girl who plays? I'd get kind of annoyed at Game Freak if they actually made it that way. Seriously, they could've made it smarter if that was the case, like changing "King" to "Queen" if you chose to play as a girl.
No it's not Hilbert. He just doesn't fit in.

Originally Posted by Silktree

The collector wants the Relic Crown (which is hardly vendor trash by any stretch of the imagination) for himself just like with all the other valuable-looking items. While the Relic Crown is the only item he makes a special comment on ("It is understandable that you want to treasure it,"), he quickly goes on to assert that that it should be sold nonetheless ("but you will sell it to me for 300000? Will you?"). If this is Game Freak's way of making us realize that the item will unlock something in the future, it is so roundabout that hardly anyone is going to heed that advice.

Even if the Relic Stone were used in the third version, why would we need to have one from Black and White? Another one would be available in that game.

Actually, after seeing Kyurems two hidden attacks I'd more like to beleive that if it has another form(es) the moves or one of the other dragons will help it change into that forme. No crown.

Originally Posted by Link

I find it strange that the text is about "King" and the first track in Pokémon Black & White Super Music Collection is called "The Day I Became King (王になった日)" do you think that the title may be hinting at the text from the ruins and "King" or is unrealted to this?

If you look at the statues you find in Abyssal ruins they are like small copies of N's outfit in that intro too.

Originally Posted by Outrage

Well, this is the translated Japanese, the English version was usually left unchanged:

Juniper: Hiiii there! White!
I heard about these Pokémon statues and came to investigate!
By the way, these statues are actually Pokémon called Darmanitan.
They're currently asleep and all hardened up.
As for how long they've existed, well, a rough estimate...
Like, wow! Over 2500 years ago! That seems to be when they fell asleep, at least.
It's around the same era in which this ruin, the Relic Castle, was prosperous.
Could it possibly be they were guarding the town?

She mentions that the Darmanitan existed around the same time in which the Relic Castle was very prosperous. The castle itself could have existed long before the civilization reached its golden age. But yeah, I doubt the Relic Castle was dedicated to the Unovan heroes. It's very possible that they were a separate civilization, probably a sun-worshiping one considering the castle's association with Volcarona.

There's a black suit man outside Relic castle (atleast in my White) saying...

Originally Posted by YWtheLucida

"According to what I've heard, that
Relic Castle is the ruins of a city built
by the hero of old and the dragon
Pokémon that accompanied the hero."