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  1. #241
    真実の英雄 smalllady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by El_ View Post
    I think that Kyurem is still the vestiges or remains of the Original Dragon, in almost the same sense that Resh/Zek are part of the Original Dragon. However, I believe now the reason why Kyurem is so weak in comparison to the other Dragons and forgotten, is simply because there was no "hero" representing it. There was only Truth/Ideals, but there was no sibling to represent the third option, Dreams.

    Drayden: "Pokémon and people do not age because of the passage of time. They get old when the energy flowing in their hearts dries up. This energy in our hearts is powered by truth, ideals, or maybe dreams... That probably changes with what you most hope for in your life."
    So in essence Kyurem is nothing, as no one represented him so Kyurem can only become Ideals (Black Kyurem) or Truths (White Kyurem). This also shows that indeed the split between the Dragons has only occured once in history. The Original Dragon will likely carry the theme of Dreams.
    Oh I really like this! It reminds me of N's dialogue in Chargestone Cave, where he asks the player character if they have a dream, as well as when he refers to this in his final dialogue.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    @El_ & @smalllady With Kyurem being designated "The Boundary Pokemon," well, I kinda took that as meaning that Kyurem represented boundaries, only assuming, of course, that Kyurem was to represent something at all. (Kyurem is, conceptually, based off of Wuji, outer [emptied] space, and, in at least terms of temperature, zero--Kyurem doesn't necessarily need to represent anything, per say, although I assumed it was designed to represent something.) Hilbert/Hilda, having boundaries more established than N's, are superior to N--in fact, N's lack of boundaries may be his greatest problem, if it doesn't also amount to being his only problem.

    Being free of truth and ideals, perhaps having only boundaries is being only in shambles and restraints, and why Kyurem is weakest. In imagining a boundary between two things that would otherwise touch though, well, we can see how a boundary could touch both sides/objects and keep them apart.

    Meh, I don't really know what I'm talking about. It may just be me, but having a sense of boundaries is, I think, great virtue. None of this is to say what the Original Dragon may have represented, if it indeed represented anything at all. It probably didn't, but was truly committed to those it thought had a good cause. On that note, perhaps (as a pokemon) it wasn't any stronger than any of the trio currently is, because all of the 3 are extreme polarizations.
    Feel free(r) to discuss Battle Strategy with me--I'll discuss anything really.

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  3. #243
    Time Traveler Silktree's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by smalllady View Post
    I agree that Hilbert/Hilda came very close to not awakening Reshiram/Zekrom, and have it awaken last-minute seemed very much like an intervention. I wonder if this intervention was caused by some unseen third party.
    I think it was caused by N's insistence the history of the twin heroes repeat itself:

    Quote Originally Posted by N
    Zekrom/Reshiram has shown himself for the hero who will guide the world. Together we will fight to bring reassurance to all Pokémon! And now, I will head to the Pokémon League with Zekrom/Reshiram, where we shall surpass the Champion! Thereupon we shall put an end to the Pokémon battles that wound Pokémon so. A world of only Pokémon... It shall finally be realized. If you wish to stop us, you too must become a hero! So! Seek out Reshiram/Zekrom, the Pokémon paired with Zekrom/Reshiram, and finally all shall be equal! Then you can stop us!
    So, what will you do? My prediction...? In the future I foresee, you will indeed meet Reshiram/Zekrom. I offer a challenge to you who walks with Pokémon and earns their trust...! Can you put up an opposition to the formula that will change the world...? If you wish to preserve the bonds between people and Pokémon, search out Reshiram/Zekrom! It surely awaits you in the form of the Light/Dark Stone.
    Quote Originally Posted by N
    You came all this way with the intent to battle me... Yet Reshiram/Zekrom is not reacting. Does it still not recognize you as a hero? How disappointing... I'd taken quite a liking to you, though. In all our battles, I felt you could be a Trainer who valued their Pokémon! But it seems that was nothing more than a baseless assumption! Yes, as much as Trainers fight, they can never build an understanding! You have two options! Fight a hopeless battle...? Or else leave here, and let Pokémon be separated from humans to form a new world?
    Come, Zekrom/Reshiram! (Zekrom bursts in through the wall in an intense cutscene.)
    Your Light/Dark Stone is...! No... Reshiram/Zekrom is...!
    (The Light Stone floats out in front of Zekrom/Reshiram.)
    (Reshiram/Zekrom is summoned from the stone in another intense cutscene.)
    Zekrom and Reshiram... Originally one life... one Pokémon. Distinctly opposite, yet exactly the same entity. Zekrom and Reshiram both appeared before ones they recognize as heroes... I see. And yes, as is the same with you. Do you hear the Pokémon speaking? Let me tell you what it says. "I want to fight you... Make me your ally!"
    N ridiculed Hilbert/Hilda's chances to defeat him without the alliance of a legendary dragon. I think this made the second dragon upset, leading to an intervention. Hilbert/Hilda might have doubted themselves when the Light/Dark Stone didn't react at first, which would be understandable because everyone told them they would need the dragon's help. Of course, this might not have been an intervention so much as a necessary step for the prophecy to be completed in the future. It is possible that Hilbert/Hilda is not the king, but rather N is, or perhaps it is someone else.

    As for the Puzzle Cube, I don't think they mean a literal TV, just the image of one. I think the projection could likened to something like a vision or even an astral projection (the soul of the original dragon?).
    Astral projection is a good way of putting it. Apparently, in Taoism there are two types of projection: The Yang Shen projection, which is the result of intense physical transformation, and the Yin Shen projection, where the subject is physically invisible and cannot interact physically with their environment. It is possible that the original dragon chose to project itself in both of these ways, with the Tao trio being a physical manifestation using different bodies, and the Puzzle Cube concealing its soul.

    I'm a little confused because the legends about the twin heroes in B/W don't mention Kyurem at all. It's only mentioned that Reshiram and Zekrom were once one being. I'm guessing they made little mention of Kyurem on purpose so they could flesh it out in the sequels. But, seeing as this probably isn't a simple third version retcon of the B/W plot, why was Kyurem tucked away in the Giant Chasm cave?.
    Kyurem must have a long history that didn't directly involve Reshiram or Kyurem, which had only been involved in Unova for a few years before their bodies were destroyed in the second war. As a matter of fact, we don't know much about the exact state of Unova after that war, or how it was rebuilt. Was Kyurem involved? Was it against people staying in Unova? We can't disregard the Lacunosa legend, as it is the only story currently known about Kyurem. While it might not have originated from space, I think it is safe to assume that it really did take away humans and Pokémon, although not to eat them. Perhaps it was looking for someone to resurrect Reshiram and Zekrom, which it obviously needs for its restoration. If you're right about Ghetsis encountering Kyurem, then Kyurem may be the reason why Ghetsis was interested in N and seemed certain of his potential to bring at least one of the dragons back; I think it is pretty clear by now that Ghetsis adopted N, so why did he choose him of all people?

    Quote Originally Posted by smallady
    I guess the only question I have left is how Reshiram, Zekrom, and Kyurem are all related. Was Kyurem a result of the split, as well? If it was, then the split truly cannot be undone, seeing as Kyurem can only fuse with either Reshiram or Zekrom, and not both at the same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by El_
    I think that it will activate some kind of event, perhaps once seeing how they use to be, the Tao Trio will remember and merge once again into one Dragon. Its possible that they may have forgotten what their own original state was, and may also need a reminder of that just like the humans.
    I suspect that the idea of fusion may be a little hard to implement from a gameplay perspective, which is why it seems that Kyurem only borrows Reshiram/Zekrom's energy as opposed to merging with them. If actual fusion occurred, how would the stats and moves be determined? How would the fusion be undone believably? Surely Game Freak wouldn't want to permanently replace the Tao trio with the original dragon, and even if the transformation were reversible, it might be tedious to repeat the event over and over. For that reason, I somehow doubt that the Puzzle Cube simply contains an image of the original dragon to remind the Tao trio of their common origin.

    I think we can assume that even if the original dragon is going to be added to the picture in B2W2, it won't be normally obtainable, or else it would be the mascot. For whatever reason, Kyurem can attune itself to Reshiram or Zekrom's genes. But why did Kyurem even have to be created? Wouldn't Reshiram and Zekrom be enough to bring the original dragon back through physical fusion? I think that as the corpse of the original dragon, Kyurem is ultimately supposed to channel its soul via the Puzzle Cube, without actually fusing with Reshiram and Zekrom. Black and White Kyurem may just be the means to ascertain who the king really is.
    Last edited by Silktree; 9th March 2012 at 04:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    I've looked up everywhere in B/W even got a hold of the game guide. My main concern is when were the ruins made.

  5. #245
    真実の英雄 smalllady's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Mumzy View Post
    I've looked up everywhere in B/W even got a hold of the game guide. My main concern is when were the ruins made.
    The description of the Relic Crown says it dates back to 3,000 years ago. Perhaps the ruins were built around that time.

    Well it won't be much longer until CoroCoro leaks. I hope all our speculation won't be for naught.
    Last edited by smalllady; 9th March 2012 at 07:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    If the Underwater Ruins are somehow involved in a major plotline (or have their story explained/expanded upon) I highly doubt it'll be revealed in Corocoro.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    So, with what you're saying with Kyurem and the original dragon and N's cube, is this going to be another Sword in the Stone/ King Arthur/ Excalibur plot?

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Silktree View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by smalllady View Post
    I agree that Hilbert/Hilda came very close to not awakening Reshiram/Zekrom, and have it awaken last-minute seemed very much like an intervention. I wonder if this intervention was caused by some unseen third party.
    I think it was caused by N's insistence the history of the twin heroes repeat itself:


    N ridiculed Hilbert/Hilda's chances to defeat him without the alliance of a legendary dragon. I think this made the second dragon upset, leading to an intervention. Hilbert/Hilda might have doubted themselves when the Light/Dark Stone didn't react at first, which would be understandable because everyone told them they would need the dragon's help. Of course, this might not have been an intervention so much as a necessary step for the prophecy to be completed in the future. It is possible that Hilbert/Hilda is not the king, but rather N is, or perhaps it is someone else.
    Recall from my blog here that I was hypothesizing which dragon was actually siding with N? I'm starting to think that even in a split-timeline theory, both dragons wished to side with N. The dragon of ideals would naturally be drawn to N due to his vision for the future*. However, the games also portrayed N starting to realize that his views may have been clouded:

    "I want to talk to you about something."
    "It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you."
    "I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything."
    *A caveat of this is that N's vision for the future need not necessarily be that humans and Pokemon be separate, but a future that would benefit Pokemon the most. However, his mind was clouded by lies, so in order to realize his ideal, he would need truth.

    Kyurem must have a long history that didn't directly involve Reshiram or Kyurem, which had only been involved in Unova for a few years before their bodies were destroyed in the second war. As a matter of fact, we don't know much about the exact state of Unova after that war, or how it was rebuilt. Was Kyurem involved? Was it against people staying in Unova? We can't disregard the Lacunosa legend, as it is the only story currently known about Kyurem. While it might not have originated from space, I think it is safe to assume that it really did take away humans and Pokémon, although not to eat them. Perhaps it was looking for someone to resurrect Reshiram and Zekrom, which it obviously needs for its restoration. If you're right about Ghetsis encountering Kyurem, then Kyurem may be the reason why Ghetsis was interested in N and seemed certain of his potential to bring at least one of the dragons back; I think it is pretty clear by now that Ghetsis adopted N, so why did he choose him of all people?
    That's the problem with stories flowing from one person to another--they get distorted. The current mindset of the fandom that all legends must be true and trying to disregard any possible hidden meaning behind it would either lead to a literal interpretation, or if they don't like the interpretation, a rejection of the entire story--despite in cannon characters like Cynthia taking legends with a grain of salt and trying to imagine how people may have interpreted events the way they did:

    Dialga's Roar of Time...Palkia's Spacial Rend...To the people back then, those Pokémon really must have appeared to rule over time and space. Seeing them must have shaken the people to their very core. This painting represents those feelings of awe, wonder, and everything else. It passed that memory to countless people, eventually becoming a myth...That's what I believe as a researcher of myths.
    It is very possible that Kyurem had taken people from Lacunosa village. However, the story of people being eaten may have simply been a way of explaining the disappearances. You see a giant dragon, people disappear, what would you think happened? The dragon invited them to live with them, and they decided never to come back? Perhaps your theory of it looking for someone worthy to resurrect the twin dragons is correct, in which case, there is some unfortunate implications for failing to do so.
    Last edited by The Outrage; 10th March 2012 at 12:15 AM.

  9. #249
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzle View Post
    If the Underwater Ruins are somehow involved in a major plotline (or have their story explained/expanded upon) I highly doubt it'll be revealed in Corocoro.
    The Ruins of Alph were promoted for Crystal, so I don't quite agree with you. But it could go either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by UnovaCastaway
    So, with what you're saying with Kyurem and the original dragon and N's cube, is this going to be another Sword in the Stone/ King Arthur/ Excalibur plot?
    You could say that, although I honestly hadn't considered the similarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Outrage
    A caveat of this is that N's vision for the future need not necessarily be that humans and Pokemon be separate, but a future that would benefit Pokemon the most. However, his mind was clouded by lies, so in order to realize his ideal, he would need truth.
    I agree that the Black and White story would best fit into the prophecy if N were the king. Aside from the fact that N definitely learned a great deal from that experience (whereas it is impossible to tell what Hilbert/Hilda took from it), there is also the fact that the prophecy refers to a king in both versions, which seems to rule out a queen. But the obvious problem is that it's unlikely that N will be the new player character, and the story climax would be somewhat lacking if we simply watched N completing the prophecy. There might be room for the player character to help him, though.

    You see a giant dragon, people disappear, what would you think happened? The dragon invited them to live with them, and they decided never to come back? Perhaps your theory of it looking for someone worthy to resurrect the twin dragons is correct, in which case, there is some unfortunate implications for failing to do so.
    Perhaps Kyurem banished those people from Unova after they proved unsuccessful. For instance, why did Ghetsis travel the world to find suitable people for Team Plasma? How did Ghetsis know that he had to find a hero and that he alone couldn't resurrect the dragons? He might have tried going to the Dragonspiral Tower once at Kyurem's request, and when he failed, he was exiled from Unova until he could find someone else to do the work for him.
    Last edited by Silktree; 10th March 2012 at 01:25 AM.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Um duh the only three things that can understand pokemon are Ash,N,and a Chatot can understand both humans and pokemon it can't be chatot because chatot can't be a king,it can't be ash because he's only in the old games[Red/Blue]so it's gotta be N

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    If reshiram,zekrom,and kyurem were once the same pokemon that would explain the fact that kyurem is black and white and the fact that one of his shiny forms is black white red and yellow

  12. #252
    Where is my Mega Zoroark? Bad Apple's Avatar
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    When they were talking about the corners and turning, i think it might be directions in the ruins that lead to somewhere. And i see N as "the king"

  13. #253
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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    Team Plasma is probably structured to replicate that ancient civilization. Hence, N as "king".

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    I love this. It took me forever to get through the ruins without "A torrent of water!" washing me away. It's great to finally see all that text in order to make sense of it.

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    Default Re: Underwater Ruins deciphered

    lolnecroposting

    There was a snippet Serebii posted some days ago which was overlooked in the rush of "ZOMG ABILITIES TUTORS" and the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serebii
    18:28; If you speak to Zinzolin in Undella Town after being in the Abyssal Ruins, he will give you Ghetsis books which automatically deciphers the text for you
    Has anyone translated this deciphered text? Does it approximately match up with "King is..." etc.?

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